For the future players of our beloved game

[Remie]

In a previous topic i put out a few ideas and recieved a few back. Ive summarised what i feel are the essentials for a system for the future players of our game to come through.

Academy- Those players good enough to make it into West Indies U-15 and U-19 squads can go through the 'x's West Indies Academy' given the name x of whoever wants to fund it for example Stanford if he actually cares about improving West Indies cricket rather than getting publicity and pats on the back. Dont get me wrong his money is helping West Indian cricket but i fear it has not been used in the best way. The academy will be where young players get one to one tuition from experts (coaches, ex players, sports psychologists) on their techniques, professionalilsm, mental side of the game, media handling etc.

First Class System- Increase the length so it is not so short. More games need to be played so players have a better chance of showing their worth and getting into some form and rhythm. It needs to be played on good quality surfaces with pace and good bounce that give both batsmen and bowlers a fair chance.

Rewarding Good Performances- Players who perform the best in first class cricket for good consistent performances over a span of 2 years will be rewarded with an overseas contract. It will increase competition in first class cricket and also players will stop being picked after mediocre performances.

Overseas Experience- Best performers in first class cricket will get a contract with an English club for a season to improve their professionialsm, mental and tactical sides of their game in real game situations in a foreign land and foreign climate. Once they have been through this final test then they should be available for selection for West Indies.

Once these 4 criteria have been met i believe we will start to produce more players who are better prepared for the challenges of international cricket. Some stages can be implemented faster than others but i believe all 4 are critical if we want to produce players capable of getting us back to being a force in world cricket again.

[RRamdin]

Agreed, these measures would take about 2-3 years to implement in any other test playing nation. With us on the other hand I see it taking at least 6 or 7 years before they are considered and implemented and then a further period of maybe 4-5 years for them to bear fruit. Hence why I believe that it will take at least 15 years for West Indies to become good again.

[Savannah boy]

De Academy crash.  De First Class system has been improved but we will have to play more games.  Every island for themselves...no more Windward and Leewards.  Bring in de Bahamas and Bermuda to add more games. 

Bring in some of those County Teams from England on a sponsored pre-season basis and have them based in a different Island on a rotating annual basis.  Have dem play against Select West Indian 11's or Island Teams and and against each other (meaning the County Squads).  Football Team does do it.  Why not cricket Teams?  Dis is de Horse/Water or Mohammed/Mountain Theory.  Why?  Because Remie Final two points eh go wuk. 

There is NO REWARD to go overseas and let we forget about any damn overseas experience.  When allyuh go learn boy?  After de blackwash, no West Indians on our Selection Radar will get County Cricket Contract like before.  Allyuh forget Lloyd, Viv, Kalli, Lara, Sylvester Clarke, Wayne Daniel, Holding, Garner, Walsh, Marshall and dem boys was living in England.  Add to that list Ezra Moseley and Hartley Alleyne.  I am sure that Rowe, Croft, Gomes, Bishop and Bacchus gained good experience over there as well but not as long lived.  I mean dey used to fly Viv in by helicopter to some of his Somerset Games.  Haynes, Richard Austin, Winston Davis, Andy Roberts and Ambrose were mostly home grown talent.  I cannot remember if Derek Murray was there.  Anyhow, my point is dem days over.  Yuh go say Bravo, Sarwan and wildman Best go get some experience.  Best on nobody radar.  Bravo and Sars go get a lil tush when some other big name player out hurt. 

The only difference with County Cricket these days is that the best West Indian players are not there making a living like before.  Yuh could play for Lashings and dem jokey club/pub squad but where dat go get yuh playing against retired 40-50 year olds who have lost most of their gloss and shine?  It was a great realtionship before.  Who got the most out of it?  That is the debate.  West Indians definitely raised the Standard of County Cricket and we did not have to train our players professionally.  When England pull dat rug from under us...we had no plans in place.  Unlike Australia, we were dependent on County Cricket to groom our players.  Now de groom gone...is gloom for we in an administratively challenged and backbiting atmosphere.  We are our own worst enemies.  Who needs enemies when we have friends like some of dem other islanders.  I eh go call no names. 

I for one doh think de players shitty.  Oh yes we have talent.  Is jes dat dey have very little experience compared to other players on Test playing teams.  Yuh cyah teach mental fortitude to big man jes so.  Yuh could break bad habits and encourage good ones at an early age.  Look at all dem promising fast bowlers who back and body break down like Rampaul, Edwards, Collymore, Reon King and Colin Stuart.  Doh even talk about Bishop...we were robbed of true greatness right there due to his back injury.  Was there anyone with trained eyes to tell these fellas when dey were growing up that there bowling actions were going to compromise their futures? 

Do we even inspect our training facilities properly?  I bowl in nets that had a wear and tear hole around de one stump dey used to stick in the ground...essentially a mini crater and it created back problems for me at the time.  Notice ah didn't say bowling crease and we wonder why Fidel Edwards and dem does specialize in no ball extras.

Anyway, ah said enough.

[Remie]

De Academy crash. De First Class system has been improved but we will have to play more games. Every island for themselves...no more Windward and Leewards. Bring in de Bahamas and Bermuda to add more games.

Bring in some of those County Teams from England on a sponsored pre-season basis and have them based in a different Island on a rotating annual basis. Have dem play against Select West Indian 11's or Island Teams and and against each other (meaning the County Squads). Football Team does do it. Why not cricket Teams? Dis is de Horse/Water or Mohammed/Mountain Theory. Why? Because Remie Final two points eh go wuk.

There is NO REWARD to go overseas and let we forget about any damn overseas experience. When allyuh go learn boy? After de blackwash, no West Indians on our Selection Radar will get County Cricket Contract like before. Allyuh forget Lloyd, Viv, Kalli, Lara, Sylvester Clarke, Wayne Daniel, Holding, Garner, Walsh, Marshall and dem boys was living in England. Add to that list Ezra Moseley and Hartley Alleyne. I am sure that Rowe, Croft, Gomes, Bishop and Bacchus gained good experience over there as well but not as long lived. I mean dey used to fly Viv in by helicopter to some of his Somerset Games. Haynes, Richard Austin, Winston Davis, Andy Roberts and Ambrose were mostly home grown talent. I cannot remember if Derek Murray was there. Anyhow, my point is dem days over. Yuh go say Bravo, Sarwan and wildman Best go get some experience. Best on nobody radar. Bravo and Sars go get a lil tush when some other big name player out hurt.

The only difference with County Cricket these days is that the best West Indian players are not there making a living like before. Yuh could play for Lashings and dem jokey club/pub squad but where dat go get yuh playing against retired 40-50 year olds who have lost most of their gloss and shine? It was a great realtionship before. Who got the most out of it? That is the debate. West Indians definitely raised the Standard of County Cricket and we did not have to train our players professionally. When England pull dat rug from under us...we had no plans in place. Unlike Australia, we were dependent on County Cricket to groom our players. Now de groom gone...is gloom for we in an administratively challenged and backbiting atmosphere. We are our own worst enemies. Who needs enemies when we have friends like some of dem other islanders. I eh go call no names.

I for one doh think de players shitty. Oh yes we have talent. Is jes dat dey have very little experience compared to other players on Test playing teams. Yuh cyah teach mental fortitude to big man jes so. Yuh could break bad habits and encourage good ones at an early age. Look at all dem promising fast bowlers who back and body break down like Rampaul, Edwards, Collymore, Reon King and Colin Stuart. Doh even talk about Bishop...we were robbed of true greatness right there due to his back injury. Was there anyone with trained eyes to tell these fellas when dey were growing up that there bowling actions were going to compromise their futures?

Do we even inspect our training facilities properly? I bowl in nets that had a wear and tear hole around de one stump dey used to stick in the ground...essentially a mini crater and it created back problems for me at the time. Notice ah didn't say bowling crease and we wonder why Fidel Edwards and dem does specialize in no ball extras.

Anyway, ah said enough.

In my plan i have not said send the players to English Counties. I have said send the players to English Clubs. At the moment we have to take what we can get.

That is why my final two points will work. I know clubs that would be biting your hands off for Simmons, Barath, Pollard if they were getting these players on the condition that they had performed for 2 years consistenly in WI first class cricket if they were sponsored to come down here. If we sponsored for eg the 2 most promising players a year it would work.

Trust me club cricket in England aint no shitty ting with 40 and 50 year olds. Tatenda Taibu done complete his first season last season and all the up and coming English players have to come through it before they go onto county cricket, eg Anderson, Mahmood, Bopara some of the lastest ones.

For your other points that is why we need an academy for the youths for all the reasons i put in my first post. Obviously money is the biggest problem. Stanford has given a hell of a lot out of his own pocket to individual countries and in prize money which hopefully will help each countries individual facilities. But what is most needed is one centre of excellence where the guys that actually are likely to make the international scene can have all the latest technology, speclialist coaching, conditions etc. But its all about money. Thats why i developed my other 2 ideas from the previous topic first because they are low cost.

[RRamdin]

I agree. Let me remind Savannah boy that before Courtney Walsh played for Gloucestershire he played for some club in Norfolk. Stephen Fleming also played club cricket in England before playing for New Zealand. Adam Gilchrist played for Richmond CC as a yougster, Padams played for Sunbury CC. As long as these boys are sent up to play in the English Premier Leagues then they will be fine. Some players playing 1st XI premier League cricket here are probably better than county standard.

[Remie]

Just to make something clear. There is no conspiracy against West Indian cricket in England. They took Ambrose, Lara, Hooper, Adams, Drakes, McClean, Rose etc and most recently Collymore before the WICB banned players from playing in England. Now when they were allowed to they took Gayle, Bravo and Sarwan. If those 3 were available for a full season English counties would take them for a full season. If the players are good enough and they are allowed to go then counties will take them. Australia have been beating England out of sight for a number of years and they let Australians continue to flood their system. I realise our talent pool has dropped and England's has increased so now we must settle for the next best alternative which is English club cricket. If and when we start producing the numbers of talented players like we did before and there is no ridiculous WICB rule English counties will again start to be flooded by West Indians.

[Savannah boy]

Hooper, Adams, Drakes, McClean, Rose.  Like I said...when they are no longer on our selection radar.  Doh even quote McClean, Rose, McGarell, Otis Gibson or anybody who get Corbeaux sweat compared to Greenidge, Richards, Lloyd, Marshall etc.  Let we not go there.  And doh lie...is Easter man.  The WICB never ban nobody from going to play in England.  Dat contravenes the ICC and all sporting rules.  Doh make up stuff like dat jes to win ah petty argument.  Doh worry with Walsh cutting he teeth at some shit club.  He played many years at the County Championship level.  Dat is not possible anymore for any West Indian players.  We must groom our own and stop depending on outside sources who are looking the other way and rightfully do not have our cricket at heart.  Club cricket!!!  Leaving here to go and face Warne, Murali, Flintoff, Harmison and men like dat on a regular basis is improving yuh cricket for the international level.  Man must go Club level and expect what?  Who is rewarding these contracts?  Yuh going an stick ah gun to some club owner head?  What makes you think these clubs need us?  Why haven't they come calling a long time ago?  Dis is not de road to self-sufficiency and reaping long term benefits.

[Remie]

Hooper, Adams, Drakes, McClean, Rose.  Like I said...when they are no longer on our selection radar.  Doh even quote McClean, Rose, McGarell, Otis Gibson or anybody who get Corbeaux sweat compared to Greenidge, Richards, Lloyd, Marshall etc.  Let we not go there.  And doh lie...is Easter man.  The WICB never ban nobody from going to play in England.  Dat contravenes the ICC and all sporting rules.  Doh make up stuff like dat jes to win ah petty argument.  Doh worry with Walsh cutting he teeth at some shit club.  He played many years at the County Championship level.  Dat is not possible anymore for any West Indian players.  We must groom our own and stop depending on outside sources who are looking the other way and rightfully do not have our cricket at heart.  Club cricket!!!  Leaving here to go and face Warne, Murali, Flintoff, Harmison and men like dat on a regular basis is improving yuh cricket for the international level.  Man must go Club level and expect what?  Who is rewarding these contracts?  Yuh going an stick ah gun to some club owner head?  What makes you think these clubs need us?  Why haven't they come calling a long time ago?  Dis is not de road to self-sufficiency and reaping long term benefits.

Well i have to disagree with most of the points you have made there, eg the WICB did put a ban on players playing county cricket if they wanted to play for West Indies. Hooper, Adams, Rose and McClean were on our selection radar at the time. Also the reason why these clubs have not come calling because we havent expressed interest in sending our players to clubs but il leave it at that.

Obviously players like Richards, Greenidge and dem were true greats so counties are gonna bite your hand off for them, like they did with Lara. The quality of player we have produced over the last 10 years has dramatically decreased so counties are not going to be as interested. You cant blame them for that.

What i do agree with is that it is not a self-sufficiency strategy- thats why in the first post the academy is there for that. The English clubs is an extra final stage to improve players further before they go onto international cricket which can be done right now and at little cost in the great scheme of things whilst we wait on the academy to materialise.

[Savannah boy]

It have no BAN boy.  You are grossly mis-informed.  Like the London Fog get in yuh brain.  If yuh want to play for the Windies, you need to play in de Carib Cup whatever yuh professional contractual obligations.  Is no different than before...Greenidge, Garner and all of dem used to grumble but they still took the time off and came home to play Shell Shield Cricket.  In dem days, Viv played for the Combined Islands.  Whey yuh does get yuh info from breds?  This has always been the policy so please inform us of what this BAN as you call it is all about.  How did Bravo and Sarwan get by these so called bans?

Hooper, Adams, Rose and McClean were on our selection radar at the time.  I disagree.

[RRamdin]

I'd like to support Remie and say that there was someting in the players contracts or sanctions by the WICB which prevented west indies players who were involved with the west indies team from playing county cricket between the years of 2000-2005. Only recently this has changed, hence Sarwan, Gayle, Collymore, Bravo, Edwards playing county cricket.

[dinho]

That ban thing is good talk...

Well it wasn't a ban in the full sense of the word.. It was more like if you sign a contract with the WICB, you make yourself available year round and as such you cannot have a contract with WICB and also a contract with a county cricket club.. It started when we moved away from paying players for series and implemented the contracts..

Also, those guys you called there, Hooper, Adams, Drakes, McClean, Rose were all at their peaks when they were playing country cricket and its their performances up there that got them onto the West Indies team. Remember Otis Gibson was banging on the door for a long time, real taking wickets and making runs with Glamorgan before he got a look in on the team..

In a dream world we could groom all our cricketers and footballers here with a league and a system that up to international standard, but sadly it not so... Carib Beer Cup quality is not county cricket quality and the truth is they will develop much faster given the opportunity in England.

[Remie]

It have no BAN boy.  You are grossly mis-informed.  Like the London Fog get in yuh brain.  If yuh want to play for the Windies, you need to play in de Carib Cup whatever yuh professional contractual obligations.  Is no different than before...Greenidge, Garner and all of dem used to grumble but they still took the time off and came home to play Shell Shield Cricket.  In dem days, Viv played for the Combined Islands.  Whey yuh does get yuh info from breds?  This has always been the policy so please inform us of what this BAN as you call it is all about.  How did Bravo and Sarwan get by these so called bans?

Hooper, Adams, Rose and McClean were on our selection radar at the time.  I disagree.

It was basically a ban. The WICB issued contracts to players which made them unavailable to sign contracts with English counties. Last summer in 2006 Gayle, Bravo and Sarwan came over to England for the first time so the rule must have been relaxed now because they must have realised it is a ridiculous rule which was not benefiting our cricket. But there was definately quite a long period where the players under contract with the WICB could not play English county cricket.

[Savannah boy]

No ban and no relaxation of rules.  The Counties do not want to raise West Indian Stars...period.  Rose (19) and McClean (18) eh play enough Tests or cement any blasted West Indian Team Place to be considered anything more than skettel.  Men talking bout Adams like he played any big set of County Cricket like Vivian Richards.  The Master Blaster had over 100 First Class Centuries and many of them for Somerset.  Jimmy Adams played a whopping 18 games for Nottinghamshire.  Some County Cricket Career. 

http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/2/2006/First-Class_Matches.html   

Jimmy Adams - A long, illustrious career in County Cricket by some people standards...not mine.

http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/1/1435/First-Class_Matches.html

Compare with Viv.

http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/1/1872/First-Class_Matches.html

Hooper definitely had a lengthy County Cricket Career.

[Remie]

I will have to agree to disagree with you Savannah Boy.

Whatever i say it seems you will always believe that the WICB never imposed any restrictions on West Indians players playing English county cricket around the early 2000s.

So its best if i just agree to disagree with you.

[fishs]

The only man I think the requirement to play games at home affected was Desmond Haynes. He was bypassed for selection by the WI selectors because he only played 1 game instead of the required 4, I think he was playing in either SA or Australia when that happened and to tell you the truth it looked like they were going to do anything they could to make him retire.
He later carried them to court and won because they were interfereing with his right to trade.

[Savannah boy]

Agree to disagree?  Is you on de stage brudda.  I want to see evidence of dis ban but yuh doing ah good dance for meh.  Read Fishs post.  Dey cyah ban.  The premise of a National Board telling somebody where to ply their professional trade as some kind of an official ban is wrong.  The only thing they did was to ensure that the players came home and played for their islands to ensure selection, keep the standard of the domestic game at a respectable level and to fill the stands a little too.  Is no different than Beenie saying, if yuh doh come home and practise (or when we have a friendly) and yuh want to play in F.A. Cup Game, yuh go ride pine when yuh reach...not so?  Anyway which way, the Counties that signed Viv and all the West Indian Stars did not fret when our players had to come home and play.  It was not a major impediment then...why should it be one now?

Anyway, all joke aside, ah want to know more about dis reward system.  How we go involve dem club and really what's in it for the clubs?

[Remie]

Agree to disagree?  Is you on de stage brudda.  I want to see evidence of dis ban but yuh doing ah good dance for meh.  Read Fishs post.  Dey cyah ban.  The premise of a National Board telling somebody where to ply their professional trade as some kind of an official ban is wrong.  The only thing they did was to ensure that the players came home and played for their islands to ensure selection, keep the standard of the domestic game at a respectable level and to fill the stands a little too.  Is no different than Beenie saying, if yuh doh come home and practise (or when we have a friendly) and yuh want to play in F.A. Cup Game, yuh go ride pine when yuh reach...not so?  Anyway which way, the Counties that signed Viv and all the West Indian Stars did not fret when our players had to come home and play.  It was not a major impediment then...why should it be one now?

Its was definately more of an impediment in the early 2000s when there were 4 more Test playing nations than in Viv Richards days so there was a lot more international fixture congestion. So i agree the WICB decided to try and keep competition and the crowds levels better in our first class system by imposing the restriction but it made it next to impossible for West Indians to secure overseas contracts in the early 2000s. Because these restrictions are far more restricting than in Viv Richards day because of all the extra international fixtures. They may not have set a blatent ban as such, but in practice these restrictions were as a good as a ban. But by law WICB were okay to do this because they were not directly setting a ban, it was an indirect one. No county were gonna sign West Indian players knowing they are not gonna get much use out of them.

[Remie]

Anyway, all joke aside, ah want to know more about dis reward system.  How we go involve dem club and really what's in it for the clubs?

Clubs 1XIs are always looking for players to improve their teams. The bottom line is they want to win leagues and cups. The WICB could set up links with around 5 good clubs in England that express interest in recruiting new players. But WICB have to make the first move. Every year say around 2 of the best performing players in our first class system can be sent to these clubs for a seasons experience in English conditions. As with everything money is the main issue. These 2 players would need to be funded by the WICB or another organisation to go to England for the season. I feel it is a small price to pay for a system that would start rewarding players and giving them an incentive in first class cricket and also getting players used to overseas conditions and pitches.

[Savannah boy]

Ah know yuh living over dey but ah doh trust dem County Team at all.  What yuh saying bout more international cricket being played is good talk.  However, is not like County Cricket starving for World Class players.  It seems like everybody have representation there (current Test Players) except West Indies and de new fellas on de block...Bangladesh.  Is bad when man from Canada, Ireland and even Bermuda there.  Wha really going on?  Is suspicious to me. 

When ah mention selection radar, we know Best eh no where to be found and most of the old Zimbabweans playing there proves my point that dey not really interested in developing current Test Players for other countries.  But dey moving smart by having men like Murali and Warne there so the English players could learn to play against them and develop world class technique.

I go hold on to my opinion because ah know we have talent.  If ah wrong, it could jes mean dat we even shittier than we ever dreamed but dat go be somebody else nightmare...not mine.

You hold on to your opinion too...is so it go sometimes.  Peace.