April 27, 2024, 10:48:10 AM

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Do you think Lara would be as heavily criticized if he was part of the Lloyd/Richards era?

Yes
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Author Topic: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era  (Read 2577 times)

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Offline g

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If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« on: April 06, 2007, 10:08:03 AM »
Dis man getting some serious licks all around, and while i agree that the captain of the losing team must take some blame for the overall performance, the kind of sledging this man gets from almost everybody regionally and internationally despite his highly successful career, i look at his career and the quality of his teammates, who has Brian really played with for the most of his career how many of them could you call legendary apart from him, how successful have those crop of players been. I listen to Michael Holding and Colin Croft go on and on about performance but i watch at the era those guys played in and level of talent these guys had around them apart from being part of a truly cohesive unit at the time. For example if Holding and Croft were playing with Tino Best, Jermaine Lawson, Fidel Edwards, Ian Bradshaw and Mervyn Dillon as opposed to Joel Garner, Andy Roberts, Malcom Marshall (RIP), Curtley Ambrose and Courtney Walsh, I wonder if he would be as critical given the overall talent factor. Chime in on what you think?
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Offline Bitter

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2007, 10:22:48 AM »
I think the biggest factor in the criticism of lara from men like Holding and Croft is his apparent lack of bad-mind. This is a problem in general with the team - these fellas seem to not mind losing. whether they do or not, they give that perception and that is probably frustrating to a generation of players who fight their way to the top and then defended that position vigorously.

If Lara was part of the Lloyd era I think he would have been told 3 things off the bat.
1. Know your role
2. Have some pride
3. Losing is never acceptable.

i think is mostly frustration to watch the team flounder and see the most talented batsman (I don't know if I would classify him as the best player) enjoy individual success and produce little in the way of team results.
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Offline Remie

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2007, 10:35:41 AM »
Lara is getting criticised because when he is captain we lose a lot more than we win and when we lose we lose badly. Although the main reason why we have lost those games is not because of him- the captain will always get the blame. Holding is always critical now because Lara has failed as a captain not once but three times, it is not just Lara he aims the criticism at, he aims it at the people that made him captain for the 2nd and 3rd stints as well.

In the Lloyd era he would just have been a player so he would have got no where near the critcism that he has got. But when you put yourself up as a captain and fail you have to be prepared to take the criticism.

But he will always be the greatest batsman of his era in my eyes regardless of his captaincy. I beleive ex players like Holding feel the same way, they just so not like the way he has handled the captaincy in each of his three spells.

Offline weary1969

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2007, 10:39:23 AM »
Lara could have been a part of richard's era at least if they had played him at least in the tour of England in 91. As for Lara being captin dem fellas just plain bad mind. They remmeber when Hopeless was the captin and the man score over 500 runs against Sri Lanka and we get we tail wash 3-0.

How come Hooper eh get blame for that. Is always Lara to blame.
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Offline fatman

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2007, 11:21:47 AM »
 if clive lloyd or steve waugh had been captains of this current west indies team they would have been unsuccessful plain and simplei do not think a player  exists in the history of cricket with more bad mind than lara. i agree his personal lifestyle has at times in his early years conflicted with his role as captain but currently he is the head of an army that has been trained for an open air batle field only to be told that the war will be fought door to door.holding and croft as pseudo journalist have the authority to talk but if their comments are analyzed they are saying very little,their analysis of west indies cricket canbe compared to that of an elementary school teacher. i will recommend any one to go to a site www.chappellway.com and read rudi websters articles son that site.he and clive lloyd were rsponsible for wi's climb to the top of world cricket in the 70's,he is probably one of the most success ful sport psychologists in the world he refers to a phenomena he calls the DEMONIZING of brian lara.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 11:28:09 AM by fatman »

Offline dwolfman

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2007, 10:32:30 AM »
Comparisons like these are always different. Generally speaking Lara has made his bed and now must lie in it. As great a player as he's been he's also been very selfish and while our poor performances can't be solely blamed on him I think he has had a negative influence on the fortunes of the Windies, whether or not he's been the captain at the time.

Has anyone here ever heard someone who knew Worrell speak about him, on the field as a captain and off the field as a person? I am trying to remember which player it was who once said of him that "He makes you feel that you can walk on water even though you cannot swim." A captain is more than just the best player on the team; a fact missed by most of us in regional sport. He is a leader and as a leader he is responsible for the performance of the team. That is why great teams have often had great captains; e.g. Lloyd.

If Lara was part of the Lloyd era who knows what would have happened. Generally those in the Lloyd era were more disciplined and team oriented. They were good players, but better team members. The Aussies are the today version of that. There are many people who must take responsibility for the performances of the Windies and Lara, like it or not, is one of them.

Offline fatman

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2007, 07:22:38 AM »
    wolf man why do you say this? was viv richards or greenidge any more selfish than lara.that great west indies side also had problems that they faced, as during laras career there were times that they also  showed  indiscipline.the point is the poor performance of the west indies is being heaped upon one mans head this is not right.micheal jordan a great team? player has physically beaten up stave kerrduring training and berated his team mates to the press.humans are dynamic and teams are dynamic there is a false perception that a team is a stable entitity this often is not so and winning teams have had their problems.i honestly believe that for most of his career lara has given his best for west indies cricket .do people know that there have been times on tour when walsh and ambrose have refused to play in first class games, yet they are considered disciplined heros.garfield sobers in his youth also displayed human frailties that can be termed selfish or in disciplined.i can name champion sporting teams in any number of sports that have internal problems.


    athletes are trained to perform under adverse circumstances.dwight yorke and latapy are hailed on this site as heros do you think either of these men are more committed to their cause than lara is to his.this should not be a time for lara bashing but rather a time for us to be sensible in our assessment of the problems of west indies cricket and i am not hearing many people talking about these things. kareem abdul jabaar and majic jonson disliked and did not speak to each other yet lakers built a sporting dynasty based upon these two men because they had sound systems in place and they were trained to peform.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 10:12:30 AM by fatman »

Offline trinfax

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2007, 07:43:19 AM »
I think it is unfair to compare Lara to any other of the great West Indies captains, up to the end of the Richie Richardson era, for they are under very different periods. Periods under Richards, Lloyd and others before was at a time where West Indies cricket was the main focus. These days it is a lot about money and territorial pride. It is not that easy to motivate players under these conditions.

Think about this....can anyone familiar with the pre-Richards era recall seeing flags from various countries among players during celebrations? You see players draped in Jamaican flags, barbados flags, Vincy flags etc.. everyone choosing to identify with their nation even though they are playing for the West Indies.   That is a problem. Once you are playing for the West Indies the only colours that matter are the maroon  colours. All territorial allegiances should be checked at the door.

With this goin on no one cant convince me that Holding doesnt get into the ears of the Jamaican players and talk to them at Jamaicans and not West Indian players. There is a difference!

Inter-island rivally is playing itself out in West Indies cricket and Lara is being made the scapegoat. If he was Jamaican Holding wasnt going to have a problem. He didnt have a problem with Walsh who was as untactical ;-) as any captain could get. That''s why Mark Taylor owned him. Or I didnt hear much complaints from Holding about Jimmy Adams who was the WORST thing to captain the West Indies. The inter-island rivallaries is whats killing West Indies cricket and unfortunately I dont see how it is going to end.       

Offline Storeboy

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2007, 01:10:46 PM »
Leave Lara alone.  This not a one man game.  We have no strike bowlers like Lloyd and Richards had.  No Croft, no Holding, no Roberts, No Garner, No Marshall, No Bishop! No Walsh.  All yuh want Lara to make runs, take catches ,and bowl out men too.  Holding and Croft were lucky that they had suport bowlers and batsmen in an era when Australia and England had none and SA was not playing.  Leave Lara alone.  He is the only thing that keeping WI cricket in the minds of cricket lovers the world over.
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Offline dwolfman

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2007, 05:35:17 AM »
wolf man why do you say this? was viv richards or greenidge any more selfish than lara.that great west indies side also had problems that they faced, as during laras career there were times that they also  showed  indiscipline.the point is the poor performance of the west indies is being heaped upon one mans head this is not right.micheal jordan a great team? player has physically beaten up stave kerrduring training and berated his team mates to the press.humans are dynamic and teams are dynamic there is a false perception that a team is a stable entitity this often is not so and winning teams have had their problems.i honestly believe that for most of his career lara has given his best for west indies cricket .do people know that there have been times on tour when walsh and ambrose have refused to play in first class games, yet they are considered disciplined heros.garfield sobers in his youth also displayed human frailties that can be termed selfish or in disciplined.i can name champion sporting teams in any number of sports that have internal problems.athletes are trained to perform under adverse circumstances.dwight yorke and latapy are hailed on this site as heros do you think either of these men are more committed to their cause than lara is to his.this should not be a time for lara bashing but rather a time for us to be sensible in our assessment of the problems of west indies cricket and i am not hearing many people talking about these things. kareem abdul jabaar and majic jonson disliked and did not speak to each other yet lakers built a sporting dynasty based upon these two men because they had sound systems in place and they were trained to peform.

Generally I do not enter into discussions like this simply because we are so blinded by the concept of stardom, and add to that here our happiness that Lara is a Trinbagonian, that any opinion other than Lara is brilliant and beyond reproach is considered a bad thing. I appreciate your measured response (people usually start cussin first) and so I will answer.

The question asked, quite specifically, about Lara and so that is who I discussed. It didn't ask about Jordan, Yorke or Latapy and the latter two I won't discuss for similar reasons as to why I try to stay away from Lara discussions. What I did say was that Lara must take responsibility for his role in where the team is now. That is all a part of being a leader, which we all know he did his best (and his worst) to become. I did not say that our performances are all his fault simply because there are many other contributing factors which I have mentioned any opportunity I can in threads on this site gone by.

You mention the Lakers and they having systems in place. What system has Lara adherred to for the Windies to do well? How many camps has he missed? How often has he played for T&T? Of course all teams have problems and guys argue and fight, but you are using those examples of normal group behavior and ignoring the rules and systems that are in place that have helped guide these teams to success. Jordan would arrive to Bulls matches, when they are on the road, in the team bus.

We have been, and continue to be, blind to Lara's faults. We hide behind phrases like "human frailties" and "X or Y did the same thing", but in the end all that has happened is that the super star has been allowed be set poor examples for the younger players on the team and as I said before he must lie in the bed that he made for himself.

Is it his fault that we are not going to win the World Cup? No. Should these former players be attacking him so publicly, especially with the important match against South Africa still to be played (at the time)? Probably not. Would removing him as captain solve our problems immediately? I doubt it. That said, the less we excuse him his obvious short comings and have him accept the consequences of his actions, the better for our cricket and for him as an individual.

Offline fatman

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Re: If Lara was part of the Lloyd era
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2007, 09:16:34 AM »
   WOLF MAN believe it or not i find your trend of thought admirable and there is a lagre element of truth in what you say.my comments and comparisms are based on principles of fairness i find lara is bieng unfairly blamed for the failures of our team,if i thought the comments were balanced i would have no need to defend lara.also i am amazed by the stories of lara missing team meetings and practice many people respond as if they were there and know these things for a fact i remember the acusations by the digicel representative they were proven to be exaggerated and untrue.sportsmen are humans and i do not believe they should nessecary be held at a higher standard than any one in life.i have made several mistakes in my professional and personal life and try not to repeat these and hope society will not dwell on them either
.
   rudi webster refers to the media demonizing lara and this is exactly what i believe is happening and this is actually preventing assessment of the real problems that plague our game.i am also doubly sure that as talented as he is lara would not have reached where he was without a tremendous ammount af application to his trade. while i personally do not believe in hero worship of individuals for their god given talent i genuinely feel that lara has given us examples of sportsmanship and diplomacy that should be  admired.while there are several aspects of his lifestyle that i would not want my children to emulate i honestly feel he is not half as destructive as people claim . if the main issue is success or failure of west indies cricket lara is the one shining light in our team.i also believe those who do nothing but criticize him are doing so for their own ulterior motives and do not go beyond classing him as a great batsman.he has many defects but he has tried in his own way to carry himself with an acceptable degree of dignity.


   the reason i will come to his defence is because contrary to what you indicate i believe a majority of people tend to drag him in the gutter.i appreciate your responding to me,like you, i think it is good when people can express their opinions and agree to disagree. i will defend lara as i believe he is often wrongly criticicized and will use examples  from other sports because of the unfair treatment he recieves from those who put othera on pedestals. an example of why i defend him can be seen in australias tour to the west indies after we had been humiliated in south africa. prior to that tour mark waugh and shane warne had confessed to giving information to bookies.in the first press conference,the foreign media asked the west indian representative if the wrong signal was being sent by giving lara the captaincy despite his infractions, no one in the local or foreign media asked any question about the presence of the australian vice captain and the third in command in leadership positions so soon after they had admitted guilt.


   so forgive me for defending lara but i am interested in balance.the comment the comment you made, that i questioned was that lara has made his bed and should lie in it i disagree with this statement whole heartedly and find it an unbalanced one. if i were playing sport under lara's leadership i would look at his technique his practice habits ,his sportsmanship, his application to batting under pressured situations and i am positive i would have become a better player.laras bed is not a sqeaky clean one but he should be allowed to get a comfortable rest in it. i actually think he has earned that right. if jimmy adams and dwayne bravo amongst others, can publicly anounce that they owe a large part of their success to brian lara that tells you that he is no means a demon.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 10:10:42 AM by fatman »

 

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