How equal are we really?

[just cool]

I am probably going to take alot of flack for this post, but i still feel the need to ask the open minded objective thinkers, what do you think of T&T societal class structure. trinidad holds for me alot of bitter memories and hatred for the uppper class and the middle class wanna be's who adore them. I know i probably come accross as a jerk,  but lets examine our be loved country shall we. before T&T became an independant country, the private sector was dominated by foriegn investers and local whites, who had the opportunity to capitalize on prime realty for future develoment projects also investing in large cooperations, amassing more wealth and ecconomic stature. in other words, out side of the government they controlled the present and future ecconomy.                                                                                                                                           people of colour particularly black ppl were religated to menial low paying jobs and ecconomic depravation, deplorable living conditionsand and in most cases lack of employment, while the middle or preferably working class more often french creole and high coloured folks, enjoyed the more meaningful skillful jobs in the private sector and government agencies.                                                                                                            after the labour movement things were moving in a differant direction but not fast enough, not until the black power movement and up rising of 1970 that poor blacks who made up the mojority of the unemployed, were considered viable for more meaning jobs. today blacks and whites, french creoles, indians and chinesse work side by side, play mas in the same carnival bands, and in some cases even go to the same dance clubs and so on,but is that what really constitutes aquality. I visit trinidad from time to time and it sadens me to see that things hav'nt changed much in 37yrs.  yeh black ppl hold more highly skilled proffessional positions than ever before, but so are every other group aswell, but there are also more unemloyement and lack of opportunity amoungst blacks than any other group.                                                                                                    I remember 1980 i was a junior member of the N.J.A.C. my mentor told me that trinidad would experience a sudden surge of unemployement and crime in the next decade and if the government did not act fast to conteract that imbalance it would take us years to recover. he went on to explain to me how the wealth and opportunities were not equally distributed omoungst the masses and how higher learning were not made available to the less fortunate, which would result in increased delinquency in the society. he also went on to discribe to me how we live in such an elitist society that trives on the ignorance and political compliasants of the masses, and if ppl with vision and guts do not get a hold of political power, T&T will continue to be raped by unsrupulus politicions of the ppl's wealth, and we will remain a dived society, not by race or colour so much, but by the ongoing concept of the extremly wealthy, the well to do and the have just enough to suvive which still resembles colonial times but just a little kinder.     positive.

[WestCoast]

ok Just Cool leh me give my 2 cents worth.
I lived up in Maraval, and there was a community of poor white people that lived up in the hills,  but you are very right when you say that the Majority of poor people in Trinidad are not white.

getting to the gist of my post,
I can tell you that when I was growing up in TnT there were many successful Black people in TnT society.
let me start

1) Sir Henry Pierre - the only doctor I know who was Knighted.
2) Geoffry Holder - even though his success has been in NY
3) Karl Hudson Phillips
4) My skin Doctor was Dr. Griffith.
5) There was an Architect, Mr. Holder.
6) A friend of mine, his family had an estate down by Sande Grande.
I am sure that I am missing quite a few people.

so what I am saying is that there are Black people who, despite what you sometimes infer that there were no opportunities, did in fact make a success of themselves which subsequently will give them the monetary ability to invest and attain land and what ever some may regard as fruits of success.

Now, Getting to the meat of your post in which you say "T&T will continue to be raped by unscrupulous politicions of the ppl's wealth" which is very SAD as I believe that is the only reason for the most Current problems you mention and NOT the Colonial history. Maybe the current crop of politicians feel that it is BEST to continue the ideologies of the previous Colonial establishment. Just thinking out loud.
Let me mention here that Partial self-government was instituted in 1925, even though it probably was mainly run by the Colonialist, but TnT has been governed by the PNM since 1956 and gained their Independence ever since 31st August 1962.

[Organic]

JUST COOL U STILL EH ANSWER MEH question all facetiousness aside. ah watiing?

[just cool]

PH common man let us be serious for once, please let us put kicks aside for now and address this post in earnest. let by gones be by gones.     positive

[just cool]

Common west coast, i expected better fom you, becauise i believe you could be classed as an objective thinker, no bull shit. I also did not imply that there were no afluent black ppl in T&T in my post, colonial and post colonial time. i for one know that's not true, for there are a number of ppl who i could atteast to , for instance justice alrick cross head of the apealant court commision or prefferably law commision,dr joslin the chief medical officer of whom i had the priviledge to work along side as well as justice cross.. mr austin taveua diplomat for the french high commision. and mr felix roach the renouned concert pianist to name a few, whom my mom worked for in her youth. so that was cleariy not my arguement, but rather the huge gap between the have and the have nots, and the equal distrubution of the wealth and opportunity to excel in our tiny sociaty with the  available resorces. i often hear the catch phrase all the time that we are all one, but i beg to differ. only in celebratory and festive seasons is that kind of apparent but in normal uneventful times that so not true.     positive.

[Organic]

I am probably going to take alot of flack for this post, but i still feel the need to ask the open minded objective thinkers, what do you think of T&T societal class structure. trinidad holds for me alot of bitter memories and hatred for the uppper class and the middle class wanna be's who adore them. I know i probably come accross as a jerk,  but lets examine our be loved country shall we. before T&T became an independant country, the private sector was dominated by foriegn investers and local whites, who had the opportunity to capitalize on prime realty for future develoment projects also investing in large cooperations, amassing more wealth and ecconomic stature. in other words, out side of the government they controlled the present and future ecconomy.                                                                                                                                           people of colour particularly black ppl were religated to menial low paying jobs and ecconomic depravation, deplorable living conditionsand and in most cases lack of employment, while the middle or preferably working class more often french creole and high coloured folks, enjoyed the more meaningful skillful jobs in the private sector and government agencies

how is this different form any post slavery post colonial country. LOOK at the states wher eu r...black poeple were being lynched as sport till well into the 70's. never see any lynched black people on woodford square in trini.   

. he went on to explain to me how the wealth and opportunities were not equally distributed omoungst the masses and how higher learning were not made available to the less fortunate, which would result in increased delinquency in the society..

[/b]

there is free post secondary ed for all students in trini.
are ther eopportunities int rinidad hell yes. since well before my time. Education. that always been available even to the poor.
as you said u whole bitter memories growing up in tirnidad ..so nwo its clear why u r as bitter as u r. i nto taking a pot shot mr dais justa  fact.
u deride trini which is your perogative but u live in america..that logic escapes me to no measure. i guess you know why.
instead of clinging to your bad memories you should rise above that and try to take things in perspective. you cannot foce your opnion and views down people thorat.
i am sure there are alot of black americans who might hold that same view of the american south as you do of trinidad. yet most of them still view america as thier country and would liek to see it move fwd positively in substance not just in hollow platitudes.
yet all you do is fight down trini and even claim though your signature that trini is not your country. africa is.

one more thing. u want to hold an objective convo..yet after u aplogise to WC u jump down his throat with your arguments again. not giving his factual accounts a fair, objective read.

[dcs]

What you think about this:

There can never be an equal distribution of wealth in our society, but there should be equal OPPORTUNITY to excel and acquire wealth.

In a functioning meritocracy, for the most part, things even out over time.

[Trini _2026]

I could agree with just cool a bit  Who own all them night clubs? Who own them malls down town?. However , blacks in Trinidad need to get up get , take this instance i was a this show on HGTV  and they were featuring houses in Tobago . The show featured an English couple who visited Tobago , then they sold everything back in england(2 yrs ago) moved to Tobago  and opened up a diving business  for tourist and they have no competition where they are . Nice business next to the beach etc etc .. Now i ask meh self why them people in Tobago could not ah think ah that?

[pecan]

Just Cool ..

an interesting topic ....

Paraphrasing Hoe, dis topic can be questioned in Canada an de US.

In fact, there is a school of though that de poor ppl  living in Canada are victim of the wealthier ppl in de country.

I eh no sociologist or historian, but the move to socialism was to help equalize de wealth in a country.

De problem is dat when ppl get into power, dey begin to behave differently.

However, one common element in a democratic society is access to education

While dere are no guarantees in life, it does provide a means to equalize the distribution wealth (or as DCS say, at least de opportunity to acquire wealth)

So bak to yuh question about equality in T&T?  ppl, due to circumstance of birth, are unequal, but how dey chose to deal wid dat is the deciding factor that separate the successful from de unsuccessful (I when I say success, I eh talking about monetary success).  Some ppl are quite happy living a simple life with no material wealth.

Look around de worl today, in every single county, there are ppl who are less well off than the average person.

India has a class system -- same race to boot
China has a class system -
Africa -- de way thing are, I sure I eh want to live dere ... for example Rwanda - genocide -- and to by uneducated eyes, dey all looked black to me
Kuwait .. all de industry is being built on the backs of migrant workers ...
Mexico -- why so many are trying to get into the US?
Haiti -- de list can go on forever

At least we in de West have access to education and de visible minorites mite have to work harder to break de glass ceiling, but it will happen ...

Many ppl are dealt a bad hand, but is how yuh play de game dat counts.

[ribbit]

bobol does rule in trinbago. you could be the blackest man in trinbago, if you know how to play bobol, you will be successful. is only politicians that think in terms of race - that is because they playing divide-and-rule. when you ever meet mr. black? or mr. indian? or mr. chinee? there eh no such person. doh get tie up with race labels and move in the right circles. is no coincidence that friends of NJAC not doing as well as friends of PNM.

[WestCoast]

Common west coast, i expected better fom you,      positive.

maybe I do not quite understand the point that you are trying to make but I hope that you are patient with me as I do hope to do so as we continue our discussion about the situation in TnT.
I believe that my last paragraph explains, to all who read it, my position.
the rulers of TnT have let the average person down.
The governments of the past have done things to help everyone in matters of education and work programs, these work programs being very disorganised as I believe it has not given some participatants the value of a work ethic (as per DEWD, where some could sign up at 7am then go to another job and come back later sign out and get paid), but maybe more and different programs need to be started to teach people to do things differently.

just a small side note:
I do not believe that any of my offspring will be able to afford to buy a house here in BC even though they have degrees, as the cost of a house is too dear. such is life...whos fault is that....I cant blame nobody. is just a fact of life. should I get bitter?...not at all...jmho

as Capital P says "Many ppl are dealt a bad hand, but is how yuh play de game dat counts."
when I compare my situation here in Canada to the people I deal with at my work, I have to say, "There but for the grace of God go I"...It is the decisions that a person makes or dont make that determines their future. very simple formula really.

[just cool]

I dont think it's that simple to explain away in one breath.  perhaps we need to be a little more methodical and in our approach to this subject, and for some reason i think ppl are still missing the meat of the matter. all of the former british caribbean colonies that i've visited experience the same economic and social divide as T&T. the whites controll most of the privite sector while the serians and high colour folks controll most of the smaller businesses and majority of the black population are the poor consumers. some folks want to equate our little country and it's socio economic status with huge developed countries like canada and the US. these countries have super large populations and are industrially superior to us, so to me that's a bad analogy. mine you i am in no wise a socio economic expert or any thing close to that for that matter. but how do you explain a population of just under 1.5ml  and a G.D.P. 2nd only to the U.S in the western hemisphere, with no debt pending, not have the ability to create proper employment opportunity or encourage higher learning especially amoungst the less fortunate like EDR and environs with all that wealth and a miny population.. how is it that most of the ppl in the EDR do not attend institutions of higher learning and when i say higher learning i mean on a collegic level. you mean to tell me that we're all underachieving dummies in the hood. how is it that mostly french creoles, whites , serians and chinesses, middle class and well to do blacks kids attend all the most prominant high schools, and very rare will you find a youth from the hood attending these schools in trinidad.schools like fatima, CIC, st. anthony's,st, joseph convent,holy name,E.C.T. how is it that most of the abitious ppl in EDR have to leave and go foriegn to make something of them selves wether for employment opportunities or to attend college and our country have so much wealth. to get into a dead end job like the army or the police force is a great privelidge in trini, you have to know someone who know someone. this is the type of nonsense that drives me up a wall. hence the reason why EDR have so much crime , BC most of the ambitious and productive ppl left out of T&T looking for a better life, and only the underachievers for the most part are left there. so how could i big up T&T when the less fortunate are tossed aside like garbage to fend for them selves with very little social programs available to help the needy. and the whites and serians still living large with their big million dollar yatchs docked in the marina in carenarge like in palm springs. that's why calypsonian trini say he go sail on the boat sink or float, BC he could afford to, he have big bank.
        positive.

[pecan]

the whites controll most of the privite sector

Comment: I cyar speak to wheter did is true today .. bee away too long.  But in any contry, the ppl who control de private sector are de ones with money.  Perhaps, historically, the whites in T&T were de one with money.  Money = Power

If you look at country in de worl, the ppl in control have money.  In canada, dey are also white.  So what yuh saying applies to most countries with European colonial history.

1) some folks want to equate our little country and it's socio economic status with huge developed countries like canada and the US.

Comment: dis is a relavent comparison and cannot be ignored.  In fact .. you yuhself did it a paragraph later.  Canada and US are both have colonial histories ... so we all have British Empire History

... not have the ability to create proper employment opportunity or encourage higher learning

Comment:  i cyar speak to today's situation.  But I look at my father.  My father born in bush, in de middle of Trini .. deep bush.  He is Indian, ppl in de village stole all the belonging of his mother when his father dies at aa young age of 30 someting.  So tell me how he manage to get out an become a teacher?  Opportunities exist as far as I concerned.

how is it that mostly french creoles, whites , serians and chinesses, middle class and well to do blacks kids attend all the most prominant high schools, and very rare will you find a youth from the hood attending these schools in trinidad.

Comment: again I draw comparison with de US and Canada.  Look at de  inner cities neighbourhoods.  The children in these areas are not represented in the better high schools.  No different dan Trinidad I suppose.

you have to know someone who know someone. this is the type of nonsense that drives me up a wall.

Comment: same in NorthAmerica .. IS who yuh know

BC most of the ambitious and productive ppl left out of T&T looking for a better life, and only the underachievers for the most part are left there.

Comment: yuh jus insulted a majority of ppl in Trinii.  My cousin-in-law a black girl.  She is very dark skinned, lives in Trini  - by no stretch of the imagination would iI call her an underachiever.

so how could i big up T&T when the less fortunate are tossed aside like garbage to fend for them selves with very little social programs available to help the needy.
[/b]

Comment: advocates for the poor in Canada say de same ting

Just Cool .. de point I am making is dat inequalities between classes of ppl are not limited to T&T and the other Caribbean nations.

If you look around in Brooklyn where yuh presently living, I am sure dey same comments yuh made about the situatiin in T&T are valid where yuh living.

LIFE IS NOT FAIR ... we all better get use to dat.

The trick is to take what yuh presently have and make de most of it.

In de early 2000's I lost my life savings to some con men  and even though I won judgments against them, I recovered zero, nilch, nada , dick

I had two options - dwell on what could have been or try to rebuild.  I chose de latter.

My expending my energies on rebuilding, I am now better off dan before the loss.  When I was at rock bottom, I made sure I picked up something on de way back up.


In Closing.  De answer to yuh question is dat no matter where yuh go, we are not equal. Dat is a fact of life.  History dictates who born with more (fair or unfair as dat may seem).  However, I truly believe that even in T&T, the opportunities to improve upon one's lot in life do exist.  If yuh really feel ppl in T&T are treated unfaily, yuh better take a close look at most of de World's population.  For example, I juss watch a movie called Blood Diamond.  Even if theie comment dat there are 200,000 child soldiiers in Africca is on 1% accurate, that is 2,000 too many chrren fighting.  Ask dem about equality

Edit: JC i juss read yuh other post (yuh cousins).  I have a better insight, perhaps, of your youth.  I have no idea how I would view de world given your experience.  But I have been touched by violence too.  My wife's first cousins (two teenage girls)  were murdered by two brutes and I saw first hand de effect on the immediate family.  Watching de parents react to a horrific situation gave me strength from the fortitude dey displayed and still display today.  So I stand strongly on the belief that if we want to better our lot in life, we cannot dwell on de past.  But we can use those experience to our benefit to move forward.

[WestCoast]

Just Cool,
here are two reasons for many problems in the Caribbean and South America.
1) The monetary policies of the IMF and World Bank and
2) the Trade constraints on other countries that have to deal with the USA in NAFTA.

here is a quote from the "50 Years Is Enough: U.S. Network for Global Economic Justice" where they
"(We) call for the immediate suspension of the policies and practices of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank Group which have caused widespread poverty, inequality, and suffering among the world’s peoples and damage to the world’s environment."
These policies are a detrement to the area and in my opinion have had very negative affects on TnT directly or in directly.

The negative agreement NAFTA, where the benifits of FREE trade are to the Advantage of the USA only, plain and simple.  You can read "Too Close for Comfort, by Maude Barlow" about how a big Country like Canada is treated, so you can well imagine how the USA treats small countries like ours.

PS. And let us NOT forget the foreign policies of the USA who rely on the underhanded dealings of the CIA to keep countries in our hemisphere in check.

It is the lower class that suffers from ALL these policies.

[just cool]

Pecan i was not going to respond to you post BC it is full of superficiality and bias. but i could'nt let you mangle my words and miss quote me, hence the reason for a responce. firstly , you made about eight comments on my post of whom one was taken way out of context. in referance to comment #6, it seems to me you did not read my post well enough,BC if you did you would see where i said EDR and not the whole of T&T suffered a brain drain, so no dis respect to your sister in law after all. and in regard's to your father's miss fortune. your grand mother must have been a very strong person to have raised successful children on her own, people of her generation were strong like that. however in our generation there are a whole lot more going on than in your granma's generation. today we a heavy drug culture of which a lot of inner city parents are victims to. hence the reason for an increase in teen pregnancy and criminal activity, a lot of inner city parents are junkies and how the hell do you expect junkies to administer proper parental guidence. it seems to me that you were very subjective in you analysis and failed to get to the meat of the matter. west coast on the other hand posted some really interesting stuff.

[WestCoast]

PPS
Just Cool,
maybe the Government of Trinidad and Tobago should adopt some of the policies of our neighbour to the west.
Mr. Chavez is a forward thinker and is doing a great service to the people of his country, no matter what the Capitalists, warmongerers, social conservatists, nationalists, economic libertarianists and Christian Fundamentalists  think.
some interesting reading on this website
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/
and on a side note read this

[pecan]

Pecan i was not going to respond to you post BC it is full of superficiality and bias. but i could'nt let you mangle my words and miss quote me, hence the reason for a responce.

I disagree that my post is full of superficiality and biased . so lets agree to disagree.

I answered your question on how equal are we really.

The answer was that we are not equal.  Life is not fair.  But we do have opportunities. Some of us have to work harder at it because of circumstances outside our control.

btw .. exactly why is my post superficial and biased?  Because of my error in suggesting that you insulted the majority ppl in T&T and did not note that you said EDR?.  If that offended you, I do apologize.   But I do not apologize for the rest of my post. I stand behind it.

[Organic]

Pecan i was not going to respond to you post BC it is full of superficiality and bias. but i could'nt let you mangle my words and miss quote me, hence the reason for a responce.

I disagree that my post is full of superficiality and biased . so lets agree to disagree.

I answered your question on how equal are we really.

The answer was that we are not equal.  Life is not fair.  But we do have opportunities. Some of us have to work harder at it because of circumstances outside our control.

btw .. exactly why is my post superficial and biased?  Because of my error in suggesting that you insulted the majority ppl in T&T and did not note that you said EDR?.  If that offended you, I do apologize.   But I do not apologize for the rest of my post. I stand behind it.

pecan and de rest...
allyuh watsing allyuh time.
de man set in his ways... and as someone said..is like talking to a religious fundamentalist.... yuh betaing ah dead horse man.
every opinion u give that doesnt argree with jc own. yuh wrong and eh to bright.

i ask de man one simple question is the easiest thing in de world to answerr...nto as complicated as all this rhetoric...he cyah answer meh.
why?? i dear say cause long and short it easy to talk de talk..but to lace up yuh boots and start makin de trek is abnother matter.

[TriniCana]

maybe everybody wasting their time, but he still has has his opinion, and i hope people still entitled to such...

unlike some of allyuh with 4500 posts, he only has 83. why not take the time (if ya care) and read between the lines. It easy you know...

allyuh don't know the man, allyuh don't know what he has been through. Your bad experiences in life, may not be his. Fine, some of this post i TOTALLY disagree with, but who am i to judge or pull out history books to TRY and convince him that he is wrong.

this is a discussion forum, where you come and discuss your opinion and ideas. Since when has it changed that "if you ain't seeing my point of view den you wrong ?"



steups

[Organic]

maybe everybody wasting their time, but he still has has his opinion, and i hope people still entitled to such...

unlike some of allyuh with 4500 posts, he only has 83. why not take the time (if ya care) and read between the lines. It easy you know...

allyuh don't know the man, allyuh don't know what he has been through. Your bad experiences in life, may not be his. Fine, some of this post i TOTALLY disagree with, but who am i to judge or pull out history books to TRY and convince him that he is wrong.

this is a discussion forum, where you come and discuss your opinion and ideas. Since when has it changed that "if you ain't seeing my point of view den you wrong ?"



steups

lemme apologise again for what ah do u last night ind dat dream ah  sorry.
well of course he has an opnion. and he free to express it.
mine opnion is that the members watsing thier time responding. I seem to remeber you having a similar opnion of someone elses views on this site.
maybe i eh "dey" enough to think along your lines yet.

[TriniCana]

maybe everybody wasting their time, but he still has has his opinion, and i hope people still entitled to such...

unlike some of allyuh with 4500 posts, he only has 83. why not take the time (if ya care) and read between the lines. It easy you know...

allyuh don't know the man, allyuh don't know what he has been through. Your bad experiences in life, may not be his. Fine, some of this post i TOTALLY disagree with, but who am i to judge or pull out history books to TRY and convince him that he is wrong.

this is a discussion forum, where you come and discuss your opinion and ideas. Since when has it changed that "if you ain't seeing my point of view den you wrong ?"



steups

lemme apologise again for what ah do u last night ind dat dream ah  sorry.
well of course he has an opnion. and he free to express it.
mine opnion is that the members watsing thier time responding. I seem to remeber you having a similar opnion of someone elses views on this site.maybe i eh "dey" enough to think along your lines yet.

whos lemme see and lemme see how you would post it

apologize to me for what you did last night in a dream
trying to insult me ? ah look like a cat ?

[cocoapanyol]

maybe everybody wasting their time, but he still has has his opinion, and i hope people still entitled to such...

unlike some of allyuh with 4500 posts, he only has 83. why not take the time (if ya care) and read between the lines. It easy you know...

allyuh don't know the man, allyuh don't know what he has been through. Your bad experiences in life, may not be his. Fine, some of this post i TOTALLY disagree with, but who am i to judge or pull out history books to TRY and convince him that he is wrong.

this is a discussion forum, where you come and discuss your opinion and ideas. Since when has it changed that "if you ain't seeing my point of view den you wrong ?"



steups

Maybe he self-righteous like me. 

[ribbit]

Maybe he self-righteous like me. 

good one.

[TriniCana]

Maybe he self-righteous like me. 

good one.

ah watch she reply...and ah log off
went and fix dey copier dat getting more vex by dey hour

[WestCoast]

can I ask sumting?
wha iz dis twins ting about?

what did I miss

[cocoapanyol]

can I ask sumting?
wha iz dis twins ting about?

what did I miss

yuh could akse..yuh mighten get ah answer! 

Yuh eh miss nuttin...is ah family matter.

[WestCoast]

can I ask sumting?
wha iz dis twins ting about?
what did I miss

yuh could akse..yuh mighten get ah answer! 
Yuh eh miss nuttin...is ah family matter.

you an waz she name is family?

sorry

.oh gaum ah real ded now, LOL.

[pecan]

Pecan i was not going to respond to you post BC it is full of superficiality and bias. but i could'nt let you mangle my words and miss quote me, hence the reason for a responce.

I disagree that my post is full of superficiality and biased . so lets agree to disagree.

I answered your question on how equal are we really.

The answer was that we are not equal.  Life is not fair.  But we do have opportunities. Some of us have to work harder at it because of circumstances outside our control.

btw .. exactly why is my post superficial and biased?  Because of my error in suggesting that you insulted the majority ppl in T&T and did not note that you said EDR?.  If that offended you, I do apologize.   But I do not apologize for the rest of my post. I stand behind it.

pecan and de rest...
allyuh watsing allyuh time.
de man set in his ways... and as someone said..is like talking to a religious fundamentalist.... yuh betaing ah dead horse man.
every opinion u give that doesnt argree with jc own. yuh wrong and eh to bright.

i ask de man one simple question is the easiest thing in de world to answerr...nto as complicated as all this rhetoric...he cyah answer meh.
why?? i dear say cause long and short it easy to talk de talk..but to lace up yuh boots and start makin de trek is abnother matter.

Just Cool, I trying to bring you topic back on track becasue it look like it getting mash up.


Hoe ..  de man raise a good discussion item ....

So de topic good, while his arguments have yet to convince me, I continue to learn more about human nature and how our life experiences and opportunities shape our opinions.

[ribbit]

I dont think it's that simple to explain away in one breath.  perhaps we need to be a little more methodical and in our approach to this subject, and for some reason i think ppl are still missing the meat of the matter. all of the former british caribbean colonies that i've visited experience the same economic and social divide as T&T. the whites controll most of the privite sector while the serians and high colour folks controll most of the smaller businesses and majority of the black population are the poor consumers. some folks want to equate our little country and it's socio economic status with huge developed countries like canada and the US. these countries have super large populations and are industrially superior to us, so to me that's a bad analogy. mine you i am in no wise a socio economic expert or any thing close to that for that matter. but how do you explain a population of just under 1.5ml  and a G.D.P. 2nd only to the U.S in the western hemisphere, with no debt pending, not have the ability to create proper employment opportunity or encourage higher learning especially amoungst the less fortunate like EDR and environs with all that wealth and a miny population.. how is it that most of the ppl in the EDR do not attend institutions of higher learning and when i say higher learning i mean on a collegic level. you mean to tell me that we're all underachieving dummies in the hood. how is it that mostly french creoles, whites , serians and chinesses, middle class and well to do blacks kids attend all the most prominant high schools, and very rare will you find a youth from the hood attending these schools in trinidad.schools like fatima, CIC, st. anthony's,st, joseph convent,holy name,E.C.T. how is it that most of the abitious ppl in EDR have to leave and go foriegn to make something of them selves wether for employment opportunities or to attend college and our country have so much wealth. to get into a dead end job like the army or the police force is a great privelidge in trini, you have to know someone who know someone. this is the type of nonsense that drives me up a wall. hence the reason why EDR have so much crime , BC most of the ambitious and productive ppl left out of T&T looking for a better life, and only the underachievers for the most part are left there. so how could i big up T&T when the less fortunate are tossed aside like garbage to fend for them selves with very little social programs available to help the needy. and the whites and serians still living large with their big million dollar yatchs docked in the marina in carenarge like in palm springs. that's why calypsonian trini say he go sail on the boat sink or float, BC he could afford to, he have big bank.
        positive.

jc, you raise some excellent points in this post. i think one issue that you are touching on is discussed in the repatriation thread.

most people leave to better themselves - whether it is to go to secondary or tertiary schools, or to develop themselves professionally. this is the rule not the exception. the real question is why don't people return to the community.

your sig says you are in NYC - maybe you can answer your own question. would you return to EDR? i asked TI the same question in the repatriation thread.

a community is a very complex thing - some people (i.e. jane jacobs) use biological analogies to describe communties - their life cycles, their pathologies - whether they are viable or not. well, a community relying on govt aid is basically on life support. a community must strive for independence and sustainability at all times.

[just cool]

Rabbit you ask an interesting question, unfortunatly i dont know if i can do justice to such a question, but i'll give it a shot. i am in love with what edr used to be, the wonderful memories of growing up there, going to school between my two grand parents in the same neighborhood, my grand father on the right of the school and my great grand mother on the left of the school, both of them literally a stone throw away. EDR was such a beautiful interesting place, people were so full of care, contrary to popular opinion, and every one lived in love and harmony. i remember watch football in mango rose, where they had a small leauge, also in st. paul street big soccer field, those were the days.  that was soon interupted when my dad got a job in texas. we all moved there permanantly which i will discribe as a night mare for me. we moved back to trini a few years latter, and i requested to stay and not return.  that's how sweet EDR was. do i feel that way now ? i dont think so. moving back there would mean moving back to nothing. delapidated buildings horrible roads delinquant bad teens with homicidal tendacies, what's there for me save the beautful child hood memories. i could probably see my self opening a school there to help the babies. maybe a computer/ trade school, that's a dream of mine. maybe some day.    positive.