Cure My Ignorance - Murders

[Carib-Briton]

OK.. I've known for new years now that Trinidad has a high murder rate, other than normal Deprivation factors what else contributes to these murders? Basically I'm asking why do people get murdered and is it regularly the same type of person? (background, class, occupation, race etc)

I've heard reasons from people but I would like to hear the views from this forum.

Reason I ask because most Trinis (I'm talking about Born & Raised) who I meet are nice people don't come across as people who carry this badjohn mentality and express it openly like some people from other parts of the world !!
(that doesn't make me stereotype people from those nations, but I've seen it alot from people from those particular nations which will remain unnamed!)

This topic comes up alot on another forum I post on with many Trinis but it normally turns into a thread of cussing and comedy to get away from the point of discussing it.

If this thread offends anyone I will gladly ask the moderaters to remove it.

[Jah Gol]

The majority of murders in T&T are drug/gang related. Yes, the East Port of Spain area is the most affected area and yes the victims are mostly young black males.

There are other murders that are incidental to other crimes such as robbery. There are also murders that can be classified as crimes of passion e.g.  man chop up he woman for horning him, woman shoot she drunk husband after beating she for years, defending yuh pride ($1 worth) in a all 4s game gone sour- is not d dollar is the principle king of thing . This kind of murder you could say is spread throughout the society.

The "high" murder rate along with the general increase in serious crimes is result of warped change in the natural social safety nets(extended family, community bonds, more intimate education) combined with an adequate education system and a corrupt and or inefficient judiciary and police system IMV are the major factors that drive serious crime in T&T.

[Blue]

Reason I ask because most Trinis (I'm talking about Born & Raised) who I meet are nice people don't come across as people who carry this badjohn mentality and express it openly like some people from other parts of the world !!
(that doesn't make me stereotype people from those nations, but I've seen it alot from people from those particular nations which will remain unnamed!)

I agree with everything Jah Gol said - he summed up the situation very, very well. The only thing I don't agree with is his criticism of the education system, which is excellent - free education from primary to tertiary level for all. But prior to around 1995, secondary education was only available to about (I'm guessing) 70% of the country, and I suppose the youths in the areas Jah Gol mentioned would have been the ones who missed out. But for youngsters nowadays, the opportunity is there.

Also, you said your opinion is based on the Trinis you have met in London. Since our independence, Britain is no longer a natural destination for Trinis. Unlike islands like Jamaica and Barbados, we are also a republic (so our head of state is not the Queen of England), which makes it even more difficult for Trinis to stay in Britain.

Consequently, the demographics of Trinis in London are quite different to Trinis in Trinidad. The average Trini who has arrived here in the last 25 years or so has come here for a university education and subsequently stayed on. So they are very unlikely to have ever been involved in any sort of drug/gang/crime stuff and will not have a badjohn mentality

[just cool]

Briton, i guess what ryan is trying to say is you have more of a gentrified afluent trini in london as apposed to us low life east dry river monsters in the US, which i tend to some what dis agree with. but here is my spin. trinidadians are very friendly out going folks for the most part, easy going party lovers, great organizers and happy for no reason type of people most of the time, and i will probably attribute that to our carnival culture. the crime and the murdering situation mainly stem from the gross naglegance of our power hungry politicions who for the most part are corrupt and are some what envolved in criminal activity them selves. such as the drug trade and gun running accross the border in venezuala which is extreemly lucrative. the former captain of the soca worriors david nakid was kicked off the staff BC he made mention of the upper class being fully envolved in helping to distroy our society with drugs and other illegal activity particularly white russian serians. who are a small but wealthy group of ppl in trini.                                                                                                                                                    to sum it up. i lost 3 causins in 7yrs from gun violence, two were involved in gangs, and the other was killed simply because he stood up to a neighborhood so called bad man. another reason for all this crime is lack of employment opportunities for the youths in the poor areas,together with consumerism and inflation. ppl want nice things and you will have to work for 3 months just to aquire clothing that will probably only cost you or me a fraction of one weeks pay. the neighbor hood gang leaders afford these young impressionable teenagers the luxary to earn big money to satisfy their lust for material things. so you tell me if you were a youth with little to no parental guidence and broke and an adult that you admire and trust were offering you the opportunity to pull down 5000 a week with no pressure of waking up early to tend to business, what would you do? go work for 400 a week? or hang out and sell some drugs. alot of these youth their parents are drug addicts them selves and has never offered these kids any guidence, some of them are high school drop outs with no edducation, some of them cant even spell their names.                                                                                                                                                 lastly the cops are also fully envolved in crime and are some of the most vicious killers in trini. guns are easily aquired and accessable to the public and so is armmunition, wich are imported by big business men and are cleared by corrupt goverment officials. that together with poor policing of our streets make for the right climate for crime.         positive. 

[Carib-Briton]

Reason I ask because most Trinis (I'm talking about Born & Raised) who I meet are nice people don't come across as people who carry this badjohn mentality and express it openly like some people from other parts of the world !!
(that doesn't make me stereotype people from those nations, but I've seen it alot from people from those particular nations which will remain unnamed!)

I agree with everything Jah Gol said - he summed up the situation very, very well. The only thing I don't agree with is his criticism of the education system, which is excellent - free education from primary to tertiary level for all. But prior to around 1995, secondary education was only available to about (I'm guessing) 70% of the country, and I suppose the youths in the areas Jah Gol mentioned would have been the ones who missed out. But for youngsters nowadays, the opportunity is there.

Also, you said your opinion is based on the Trinis you have met in London. Since our independence, Britain is no longer a natural destination for Trinis. Unlike islands like Jamaica and Barbados, we are also a republic (so our head of state is not the Queen of England), which makes it even more difficult for Trinis to stay in Britain.

Consequently, the demographics of Trinis in London are quite different to Trinis in Trinidad. The average Trini who has arrived here in the last 25 years or so has come here for a university education and subsequently stayed on. So they are very unlikely to have ever been involved in any sort of drug/gang/crime stuff and will not have a badjohn mentality

most I've met or know are Under 25, Most of them have come here for Uni but what your saying is true for the majority of the demographic, The only people from the Caribbean who still come here in a high number are Jamaicans from what I see.

* Some of you are probably think well they are in Uni so why would they behave so but I know of people born here who are in Uni but yet still involved this ''street life'' 

[Carib-Briton]

Also thanks to the 3 of you responses they were enough, I'm not really looking for this thread to become a 4/5 page special.
My Condolences, Just Cool

[Jah Gol]

Reason I ask because most Trinis (I'm talking about Born & Raised) who I meet are nice people don't come across as people who carry this badjohn mentality and express it openly like some people from other parts of the world !!
(that doesn't make me stereotype people from those nations, but I've seen it alot from people from those particular nations which will remain unnamed!)

I agree with everything Jah Gol said - he summed up the situation very, very well. The only thing I don't agree with is his criticism of the education system, which is excellent - free education from primary to tertiary level for all. But prior to around 1995, secondary education was only available to about (I'm guessing) 70% of the country, and I suppose the youths in the areas Jah Gol mentioned would have been the ones who missed out. But for youngsters nowadays, the opportunity is there.

I think our education system is good for the academic elites. Its true that our students can cope and excel withing "1st world' education systems- receiving the greatest accolades in virtually every discipline. All this is true however upon closer examination of the kind of individuals we are producing a than favourable view is inevitable.

We have serious problems with illiteracy in this country. The CSO and the UN may think its 98% but in reality it is significantly less. This is because the literacy rate is simply a measure of those educated up the age of 15. Admittedly the Government is trying to do something about it through the introduction of literacy, numeracy and computer literacy training in virtually all of its vocational training programmes. The problem is that this measure is reactionary and does not cast a wide enough net. Not everyone is reached because these programmes are voluntary and by that time these individauls leave secondary school many of them have been acultured in the lifestyle of the unemployed. According to our prison statistics, persons in this group are most likely to commit serious crime.

Further criticism can be geared towards a overly theoretical syllabus. The neglect of basic civics and economics that would in my view inform the consciousness of the people a great deal.



 

[Trini _2026]

I agree with everything Jah Gol said - he summed up the situation very, very well. The only thing I don't agree with is his criticism of the education system, which is excellent - free education from primary to tertiary level for all.

Because of free education our system is excellent 

[noname]

Reason I ask because most Trinis (I'm talking about Born & Raised) who I meet are nice people don't come across as people who carry this badjohn mentality and express it openly like some people from other parts of the world !!
(that doesn't make me stereotype people from those nations, but I've seen it alot from people from those particular nations which will remain unnamed!)

I agree with everything Jah Gol said - he summed up the situation very, very well. The only thing I don't agree with is his criticism of the education system, which is excellent - free education from primary to tertiary level for all. But prior to around 1995, secondary education was only available to about (I'm guessing) 70% of the country, and I suppose the youths in the areas Jah Gol mentioned would have been the ones who missed out. But for youngsters nowadays, the opportunity is there.

I think our education system is good for the academic elites. Its true that our students can cope and excel withing "1st world' education systems- receiving the greatest accolades in virtually every discipline. All this is true however upon closer examination of the kind of individuals we are producing a than favourable view is inevitable.

We have serious problems with illiteracy in this country. The CSO and the UN may think its 98% but in reality it is significantly less. This is because the literacy rate is simply a measure of those educated up the age of 15. Admittedly the Government is trying to do something about it through the introduction of literacy, numeracy and computer literacy training in virtually all of its vocational training programmes. The problem is that this measure is reactionary and does not cast a wide enough net. Not everyone is reached because these programmes are voluntary and by that time these individauls leave secondary school many of them have been acultured in the lifestyle of the unemployed. According to our prison statistics, persons in this group are most likely to commit serious crime.

Further criticism can be geared towards a overly theoretical syllabus. The neglect of basic civics and economics that would in my view inform the consciousness of the people a great deal. 

Good post. I agree with your analysis. THe functional literacy rate is probably closer to 55% based on numbers from the adult literacy tutors association and UWI surveys.
Universal secondary education for all was a terrific idea but the execution has meant that a large group of students are not being catered for. Very little has been focused on trades and vocations, hence the surpreme shortage of skilled labour. Its a fact that not everyon can learn on the same curve yet our system tries to funnel all types through the same filter. Of course, some are going to be left behind. The duty of the system is to make sure they have alternatives, free alternatives.
I'll admit that I'm not familar with the recent introduction of vocational programs, but my point lies in the fact that John D, Sando Tech are both shadows when they should be beacons of light for other community based programes.  We have people with the skills, it just takes the right approach and the will to make it happen.

[Jah Gol]

Reason I ask because most Trinis (I'm talking about Born & Raised) who I meet are nice people don't come across as people who carry this badjohn mentality and express it openly like some people from other parts of the world !!
(that doesn't make me stereotype people from those nations, but I've seen it alot from people from those particular nations which will remain unnamed!)

I agree with everything Jah Gol said - he summed up the situation very, very well. The only thing I don't agree with is his criticism of the education system, which is excellent - free education from primary to tertiary level for all. But prior to around 1995, secondary education was only available to about (I'm guessing) 70% of the country, and I suppose the youths in the areas Jah Gol mentioned would have been the ones who missed out. But for youngsters nowadays, the opportunity is there.

I think our education system is good for the academic elites. Its true that our students can cope and excel withing "1st world' education systems- receiving the greatest accolades in virtually every discipline. All this is true however upon closer examination of the kind of individuals we are producing a than favourable view is inevitable.

We have serious problems with illiteracy in this country. The CSO and the UN may think its 98% but in reality it is significantly less. This is because the literacy rate is simply a measure of those educated up the age of 15. Admittedly the Government is trying to do something about it through the introduction of literacy, numeracy and computer literacy training in virtually all of its vocational training programmes. The problem is that this measure is reactionary and does not cast a wide enough net. Not everyone is reached because these programmes are voluntary and by that time these individauls leave secondary school many of them have been acultured in the lifestyle of the unemployed. According to our prison statistics, persons in this group are most likely to commit serious crime.

Further criticism can be geared towards a overly theoretical syllabus. The neglect of basic civics and economics that would in my view inform the consciousness of the people a great deal. 

Good post. I agree with your analysis. THe functional literacy rate is probably closer to 55% based on numbers from the adult literacy tutors association and UWI surveys.
Universal secondary education for all was a terrific idea but the execution has meant that a large group of students are not being catered for. Very little has been focused on trades and vocations, hence the surpreme shortage of skilled labour. Its a fact that not everyon can learn on the same curve yet our system tries to funnel all types through the same filter. Of course, some are going to be left behind. The duty of the system is to make sure they have alternatives, free alternatives.
I'll admit that I'm not familar with the recent introduction of vocational programs, but my point lies in the fact that John D, Sando Tech are both shadows when they should be beacons of light for other community based programes.  We have people with the skills, it just takes the right approach and the will to make it happen.

John D and Sando Tech are now under the purview of the University of Trinidad and Tobago. They (the government) say that the quality and number of the graduates from these institutions have fallen in recent years. The move to UTT control supposedly is to reform the institutions.

[TrinInfinite]

The murder rate is isolated.... almost strictly to the ghetto... most is gang violence related to cepep,urp contracts from foremen, cocaine(solidfying territory) and revenge murders... the other elements is robbery and youth on youth crime to get what a next brother have... ... most of our community in the ghetto is coming from broken homes, this is the root of the problem of the crime, striving for the short term gain instead of the long term reward, this study was done by ivar oxaal in the 60's... the govt is to blame for most of whats going on... unequal income distribution from govt programs, the governemt doh care how much youths dead or live... they throw money in de ghetto and let de people of we community fight for it... bullshit tings... all bc of poverty and lack of opportunity and lack of role models... in the end though, when yuh around us ghetto people is real love and sharing that is not seen in any other part of the island, if man hungry you does eat and drink 2gether as one, the youths and everyone is loving people, but man, woman and chile have tuh survive bc no one else cares about the ghetto or its people, except the ghetto.. ANOTHER MISCONCEPTION IS THAT ITS ONLY CRIMINALS WE HAVE IN THE GHETTO, WHEN THERE ARE ALSO ALL SECTORS OF SOCIETY THAT LIVE IN THE GHETTO, PLENTY OF THE INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE IN TT SOCIETY ARE FROM THE EAST DRY RIVER.... AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THE BIGGEST CRIMINALS IS THE GOVERNMENT AND PRIVATE SECTOR...

However our community is full with intelligence, talent, in areas of sport, music, arts education, everything you name it we have it in the ghetto, them same youths that get caught up in the violence have plenty to offer to society, no one is a monster, people who not from the ghetto would never understand the ghetto fully, unless you live there, bottom line is plenty people doh realize our people from the ghetto are humans but come from rougher conditions that anyone else in the islands, its not like man want sympathy or pity, we want equality and honesty, genuine brothers and sisters that care...

Furthermore, the baddest men you meet sometimes in tt is de most humble and coolest fellahs, many times its bc of the environment and what a man, youth has to do to survive, the life expectancy from where i come from is around 17-18 years old, you check that stat and realize youths have the mentality there is nothing to live for, this needs to change... ah fed up seeing plenty people from our area who have the intelligence and talent to do more with their life, waste it bc of environment, STEREOTYPING, the government and lack of a role model or a broken home... Love is the greatest commandment ever preached by Jesus Christ... iz time the government and many others help their own instead of themselves... along with the people here on this board... I love my ghetto people regardless of the bullshit stereotypes....

God is de BOSS....

THE EAST DRY RIVER LIVES ON...

[Jah Gol]

The murder rate is isolated.... almost strictly to the ghetto... most is gang violence related to cepep,urp contracts from foremen, cocaine(solidfying territory) and revenge murders... the other elements is robbery and youth on youth crime to get what a next brother have... ... most of our community in the ghetto is coming from broken homes, this is the root of the problem of the crime, striving for the short term gain instead of the long term reward, this study was done by ivar oxaal in the 60's... the govt is to blame for most of whats going on... unequal income distribution from govt programs, the governemt doh care how much youths dead or live... they throw money in de ghetto and let de people of we community fight for it... bullshit tings... all bc of poverty and lack of opportunity and lack of role models... in the end though, when yuh around us ghetto people is real love and sharing that is not seen in any other part of the island, if man hungry you does eat and drink 2gether as one, the youths and everyone is loving people, but man, woman and chile have tuh survive bc no one else cares about the ghetto or its people, except the ghetto.. ANOTHER MISCONCEPTION IS THAT ITS ONLY CRIMINALS WE HAVE IN THE GHETTO, WHEN THERE ARE ALSO ALL SECTORS OF SOCIETY THAT LIVE IN THE GHETTO, PLENTY OF THE INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE IN TT SOCIETY ARE FROM THE EAST DRY RIVER.... AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED THE BIGGEST CRIMINALS IS THE GOVERNMENT AND PRIVATE SECTOR...

However our community is full with intelligence, talent, in areas of sport, music, arts education, everything you name it we have it in the ghetto, them same youths that get caught up in the violence have plenty to offer to society, no one is a monster, people who not from the ghetto would never understand the ghetto fully, unless you live there, bottom line is plenty people doh realize our people from the ghetto are humans but come from rougher conditions that anyone else in the islands, its not like man want sympathy or pity, we want equality and honesty, genuine brothers and sisters that care...

Furthermore, the baddest men you meet sometimes in tt is de most humble and coolest fellahs, many times its bc of the environment and what a man, youth has to do to survive, the life expectancy from where i come from is around 17-18 years old, you check that stat and realize youths have the mentality there is nothing to live for, this needs to change... ah fed up seeing plenty people from our area who have the intelligence and talent to do more with their life, waste it bc of environment, STEREOTYPING, the government and lack of a role model or a broken home... Love is the greatest commandment ever preached by Jesus Christ... iz time the government and many others help their own instead of themselves... along with the people here on this board... I love my ghetto people regardless of the bullshit stereotypes....

God is de BOSS....

THE EAST DRY RIVER LIVES ON...

Just a few questions :

Why do you blame the "government" so much for the deaths in those communities ?
Is it the "government's responsibilty to mind an entire community ?
How is it that Grenadians, Guyaneese, Vincentians and even Chineese could find opportunities in Trinidad and "ghetto yutes" can't ? 

We've grown accustomed to seeing public officials pass the buck to someone else when the heat is on. It seems that the society is now trying to shirk its own responsibility now. I'm not trying to attack the people of East POS but accountability is for everybody. In the same way we have to recognise and own the good we must do the same for the bad. At the end of the day is ghetto yutes killing ghetto yutes.

I would agree that the programmes there aren't helping the situation and I recommend at the very least a streamlining if not the closure of those programmes.

[Pointman]

Jah Gol, I must say that I do enjoy reading your posts. I have a couple of observations though. First I would opine that our education is definitely elitest. The better schools are mainly for the elite of society regardless of racial group. This is subject for debate at a later time.

Secondly, much of the crime that we hear/read about is pretty much an urban phenomenon. It's seldom that we read with any frequency about violent crimes committed in rural areas. My hometown is the same crime free area today as when I left it 28 yrs ago.

Lastly, it's not just ghetto yutes killing ghetto yutes as some have suggested. Oftentimes it is our elders who suffer the same fate. Lets not forget the kidnapping also. Ghetto yutes ent kidnapping ghetto yutes.

Peace

[ribbit]

Carib-briton, i think another factor is the quality of health care. i have friends and family working in hospitals that see bullet wounds, stab wounds, etc.. on a regular basis and the whole health care industry in the uk, usa, even canada, is built to handle situations like these. yuh try treating a gun shot victim in POS - well, that is another thing. the difference is night and day. maybe the same person treated in london, or miami or some place different woulda survive.

[WestCoast]

I dont know if this post is in the right thread, but

here is a quote from the "50 Years Is Enough: U.S. Network for Global Economic Justice" where they
"(We) call for the immediate suspension of the policies and practices of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank Group which have caused widespread poverty, inequality, and suffering among the world’s peoples and damage to the world’s environment."
These policies are a detrement to the area and in my opinion have had very negative affects on TnT directly or in directly.

Another negative agreement is NAFTA, where the benifits are to the Advantage to the USA, plain and simple.

All these policies ONLY affect the poorer people of the society and without programs the fabric of the society starts to disintegrate.

[truetrini]

The press in T&T has made the situation to be much worse than it is.

Trinidad is still ah paradise!

and de woman bamsee still does look like ah upside down question mark!

[dcs]

A free for all right now.
Ridiculously low conviction rates much less detection rates.  Low confidence in the police so nobody want to talk to them and end up dead.

Something like this could help technology wise but it have plenty to fix personnel wise first.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.04/shotears.html

Violent crime has gone down a little in the last couple months but I eh so sure that will stay so with the extra security and scrutiny they had for Carnival and the Cricket WC likely to fall off.  We'll see.

URP need to be scrapped....it plain rotten to the core and doing more harm than good.

P.S.  Blaming the US, IMF or World Bank for any of our woes is a cop out.  Maybe other nations but most definitely not T&T.  Our problems are of our own making.  Too many people not doing their blasted job good enough.  U have enough people doing that along with terrible planning and mismanagement and major services start to fall apart affecting everyone especially the most vulnerable despite the best efforts of those who may be trying their best.