LET ME PROVOKE THE MARIBUNTA NEST WITH THIS QUESTION

[fishs]

 Is this how ole talk does start in CIC?

[Bakes]

But almost every great team has that one standout (at least one), who could take matters into his own hands, and do the sorts of things that one cannot necessarily "coach"(...and I eh talking about Toussaint & Dwarika...)- very often a player like that could be the difference between a good team, and a great team....

I think the trick is to strike the correct balance where you create a disciplined cohesive unit as you say, but one that still alows individual talented players to express themselves without sacrificing too much of their natural game...

A W.C. winning team without a "superstar"/"superstars" is difficult to come  by IMO.

Difficult indeed...but everything is accomplished within the unit of the team and the confines of teamplay.  Since Pele no individual player put his team on his back and carried them to a WC title.  Then Maradona came along and did the same for Argentina...no one else since.

Point being...it is far more difficult for individually talented players to carry a team, than for a team of less stratospheric players to join together and play the complet team game.  "Team game"...people are forgetting that in all this talk...football is a team game.  No one man will win you games on the regular by himself.

[Bakes]

This is correct, all the talk about team work grit and fight can get you but so far. I think this is the hurdle that is keeping the US from being a dominant team on the world stage.

List the WC winning teams that had one dominant player that put the team on his back and far outshone his teammates in leading the team to the World Cup.

List the teams that won the Cup, that had very talented but not really "superstar players"...OR if they had superstars, the superstars performance in the WC (Ronaldo '98) wasn't much different from other teammates.

I bet you...let's limit it, go only as far back as Argentina in 1978...I bet you you can name only two teams.  That 78 Argentina squad (and not even then) and more credibly the 1986 Argentina squad are the only ones where an overwhelmingly dominant performance by one player carried the day.

[dinho]

I would word it differently cause you know how "the architect" Bake and Shark picky with he words..

Not "dominant player", but in my opinion every team needs a SKILFUL/CREATIVE midfield player to balance the disciplined organization with genuine invention..  Sometimes that moment of magic is what is needed to turn a game.. It is why old men like Tugay (Turkey), Francileus Dos Santos (Tunisia), Latapy (Trinidad) were counted as so invaluable, and made telling contributions in WC qualifying..

Barring that you have a side of robots (Like USA/England)

Case in point the last world cup. My list would be..

Italy - Pirlo/Totti

France - Zidane

Germany - Ballack

Portugal - Deco/Ronaldo

Argentina - Riquelme

Brazil - Ronaldinho/Kaka

Holland - Van der Vaart

England - ??

USA - ??

Trinidad & Tobago - Latapy?

[kicker]

This is correct, all the talk about team work grit and fight can get you but so far. I think this is the hurdle that is keeping the US from being a dominant team on the world stage.

List the WC winning teams that had one dominant player that put the team on his back and far outshone his teammates in leading the team to the World Cup.

List the teams that won the Cup, that had very talented but not really "superstar players"...OR if they had superstars, the superstars performance in the WC (Ronaldo '98) wasn't much different from other teammates.

I bet you...let's limit it, go only as far back as Argentina in 1978...I bet you you can name only two teams.  That 78 Argentina squad (and not even then) and more credibly the 1986 Argentina squad are the only ones where an overwhelmingly dominant performance by one player carried the day.

Firstly, I said at least one....so it could be a "yorke & cole" combo kinda thing for eg...

Secondly, I eh necessarily talking about "carrying" a team.- I never used those words because I agree, in the modern day game the notion of a player "carrying a team" is almost unheard of....Notice I said, a great team usually has a player who could take matters into his own hands and do what is not necessarily coachable- sometimes that great player only does it once in the whole tournament, but very likely at the time you need it most (Zidane '98 final) or (Zidane 06 Q-Final..ok they lost in the final, but same principle applies  )....I think that to win a WC tournament, it may not absolutely be needed, but a star/stars go a long way....

Anyway, this is my response to the challenge- 78 & 82- relying on highlights hearsay, and old footage- I was too young in those days...


78- Kempes (goal scorer extraordinaire) Passarella, Adilles -legends

82- Rossi (hattrick out of the blue against Brazil)...they could not be beat after that....

86- Maradonna (no need for words)

90- Mattheus, Voeller, Klinnsmann, Brehme (in probably one of the most balanced WC winning teams, they still stood out)

94- Romario (scored in all but one of Brazil's games....pk in the final ), Mauro Silva (unsung hero)

98- Zidane, (e.g. double out of no where in the final) Thuram (e.g. double out of no where in the semi final)

02- Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho ("carried Brazil", in attack so to speak)

06- Pirlo & Cannavaro (outstanding, especially in the big games)  

Most importantly, my original stance:

I think the trick is to strike the correct balance where you create a disciplined cohesive unit as you say, but one that still alows individual talented players to express themselves without sacrificing too much of their natural game...

[futbolfan]

This is correct, all the talk about team work grit and fight can get you but so far. I think this is the hurdle that is keeping the US from being a dominant team on the world stage.

List the WC winning teams that had one dominant player that put the team on his back and far outshone his teammates in leading the team to the World Cup.

List the teams that won the Cup, that had very talented but not really "superstar players"...OR if they had superstars, the superstars performance in the WC (Ronaldo '98) wasn't much different from other teammates.

I bet you...let's limit it, go only as far back as Argentina in 1978...I bet you you can name only two teams.  That 78 Argentina squad (and not even then) and more credibly the 1986 Argentina squad are the only ones where an overwhelmingly dominant performance by one player carried the day.

I will give a list of some recent world cup winners and the star players on those teams who without a doubt carried those teams.

Argentina with Maradona in 1986.
Brazil with Romario (who also won the golden ball) 1994
France with Zidane in 1998
Brazil with Ronaldo in 2002
* France didn't win the title in 2006, but hands down Zidane was there best player who by the way also won the golden ball.

[MEP]

arrite leh me see if ah could shed some light on this discussion....if you travel throughout the states you'd find that the game is essentially being taught 99% of the time at practice. The push by USyouth soccer is to have clubs try to dedicate at least one day a week to "street soccer" tournaments. The idea behind this is that the game in an unstructured form is the best teacher and as we all know street-soccer aka small goal is where players are innovative and have the chance to be most creative.
After spending hundred of thousands of dollars in psychological research they've realized that the "it's all about me"  component is essential to becoming a creative player. How many times have you cussed someone and dey nennen for not passin de ball?? if you think about it, that person was just trying to be creative. That is the essential component that is missing for the US's game especially with their forwards and midfielders. Look at Donovan he is skillful but all he beats a defender with is speed.....look how he was shut down last world cup. Now compare that to Reyes from Real Madrid last Sunday against Mallorca.....when he came in he was essentially playing a small goal game with those 1-2's and then using that to open up the field.
Anyway with Trini soccer we have that creative component but what we don't have is a structure that can translate that game onto the big field.

[grskywalker]

 Is this how ole talk does start in CIC?

ha ha you know it!

[Bakes]

This is correct, all the talk about team work grit and fight can get you but so far. I think this is the hurdle that is keeping the US from being a dominant team on the world stage.

List the WC winning teams that had one dominant player that put the team on his back and far outshone his teammates in leading the team to the World Cup.

List the teams that won the Cup, that had very talented but not really "superstar players"...OR if they had superstars, the superstars performance in the WC (Ronaldo '98) wasn't much different from other teammates.

I bet you...let's limit it, go only as far back as Argentina in 1978...I bet you you can name only two teams.  That 78 Argentina squad (and not even then) and more credibly the 1986 Argentina squad are the only ones where an overwhelmingly dominant performance by one player carried the day.

Firstly, I said at least one....so it could be a "yorke & cole" combo kinda thing for eg...

Secondly, I eh necessarily talking about "carrying" a team.- I never used those words because I agree, in the modern day game the notion of a player "carrying a team" is almost unheard of....Notice I said, a great team usually has a player who could take matters into his own hands and do what is not necessarily coachable- sometimes that great player only does it once in the whole tournament, but very likely at the time you need it most (Zidane '98 final) or (Zidane 06 Q-Final..ok they lost in the final, but same principle applies  )....I think that to win a WC tournament, it may not absolutely be needed, but a star/stars go a long way....

Anyway, this is my response to the challenge- 78 & 82- relying on highlights hearsay, and old footage- I was too young in those days...


78- Kempes (goal scorer extraordinaire) Passarella, Adilles -legends

82- Rossi (hattrick out of the blue against Brazil)...they could not be beat after that....

86- Maradonna (no need for words)

90- Mattheus, Voeller, Klinnsmann, Brehme (in probably one of the most balanced WC winning teams, they still stood out)

94- Romario (scored in all but one of Brazil's games....pk in the final ), Mauro Silva (unsung hero)

98- Zidane, (e.g. double out of no where in the final) Thuram (e.g. double out of no where in the semi final)

02- Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho ("carried Brazil", in attack so to speak)

06- Pirlo & Cannavaro (outstanding, especially in the big games)  

Most importantly, my original stance:

I think the trick is to strike the correct balance where you create a disciplined cohesive unit as you say, but one that still alows individual talented players to express themselves without sacrificing too much of their natural game...

Well I dunno at which point you entered the discussion but FPATT made the point that our game is one where individual talent is emphasized (or that's the gist of his argument)...whereas the US game is more of a collaborative team effort.  I then posited that reliance on a team-oriented approach is the tried and proven formula.  You then responded that very often those teams have players with individual talent who could take over the game...note I didn't respond to that, I found your argument tangential to the discussion.  The discussion as I see it was focused on the approach to coaching and strategizing...build the team as a unit, or build the team around a supremely talented player.

In your model, the team plays as a unit, but the player on his own raises his game and dominates the play on the field...which is neither here nor there in that is says nothing of the overall philosophy of the technical staff.  Every team plays to it's strengths...even the US, under Arena played a strategy that seemed to rely too heavily on Reyna and Donovan.  Bradley seems to be employing a more democratic approach.

Look again at what I responded to:

This is correct, all the talk about team work grit and fight can get you but so far. I think this is the hurdle that is keeping the US from being a dominant team on the world stage.

The insinuation here is that the LACK of a dominant player or two is what's preventing the US from making it to that next level.  My hypothesis is that that "LACK" is beneficial, but not crucial.  Every team on the WC level have dominant players at their positions...EVERY team.  Every player simply is that talented.  The thing is that because the level of individual dominance is all across the board the dominant players cancel each other out...with the exception of the supremely brilliant individual.  I

n the past 30-year period I mention...simply because 78 is as far back as I can remember (even though 82 was more real for me)  there have been few individual performances that have been truly superlative.

Kempes, Ardilles and Passarella each helped lift Argentina...so that is more along the mold of team play, not individual talent carrying the team.

Rossi didn't outshine his teammates, nor did Romario, nor did Zidane in 98.  The German team...was just that, great team play, same for France in 98 and 06.  In fact if not for Ribery in the knock out stages opening up the left flank for France, last year's team would likely have not made to the final game.  Italy last year won the game on the backs of their Defense...that was the epitome of team play if ever their was...I dunno how you could even mention that.

The players you mention, Ronaldo in 02 as well...all won the Golden Boot and I think that is what's clouding your focus.  Winning the Golden Boot to me isn't evidence that you so dominated the game that you stood out above and beyond the contributions of your teammates.  All it means is that you scored the most goals...end talk.

If you have to start listing three and four players...then it's more of a team effort.

[Bakes]

I will give a list of some recent world cup winners and the star players on those teams who without a doubt carried those teams.

Argentina with Maradona in 1986.
Brazil with Romario (who also won the golden ball) 1994
France with Zidane in 1998
Brazil with Ronaldo in 2002
* France didn't win the title in 2006, but hands down Zidane was there best player who by the way also won the golden ball.

Instead of typing out my answer again, I'll just point you to my post above...same thing.

[Bakes]

arrite leh me see if ah could shed some light on this discussion....if you travel throughout the states you'd find that the game is essentially being taught 99% of the time at practice. The push by USyouth soccer is to have clubs try to dedicate at least one day a week to "street soccer" tournaments. The idea behind this is that the game in an unstructured form is the best teacher and as we all know street-soccer aka small goal is where players are innovative and have the chance to be most creative.
After spending hundred of thousands of dollars in psychological research they've realized that the "it's all about me"  component is essential to becoming a creative player. How many times have you cussed someone and dey nennen for not passin de ball?? if you think about it, that person was just trying to be creative. That is the essential component that is missing for the US's game especially with their forwards and midfielders. Look at Donovan he is skillful but all he beats a defender with is speed.....look how he was shut down last world cup. Now compare that to Reyes from Real Madrid last Sunday against Mallorca.....when he came in he was essentially playing a small goal game with those 1-2's and then using that to open up the field.
Anyway with Trini soccer we have that creative component but what we don't have is a structure that can translate that game onto the big field.

Now this...in it's entirety I can agree with.  I don't know that it addresses the individual approach to the team approach...but we're on the same track in that the more individually skilled the team is...the more individually skilled the US players become, the more dominant will they as a team become.  Going back to something I said in response to Kicker...other than in goal, I can't think of a position on the field that a US player is truly dominant.

Your comments on Donovan and Small Goal are particularly noted...in total concurrence 

[kicker]

The players you mention, Ronaldo in 02 as well...all won the Golden Boot and I think that is what's clouding your focus.  Winning the Golden Boot to me isn't evidence that you so dominated the game that you stood out above and beyond the contributions of your teammates.  All it means is that you scored the most goals...end talk.

If you have to start listing three and four players...then it's more of a team effort.

Well it's evident that we were talking about two slightly different things...and probably agreeing more than disagreeing, hence my original stance:

I think the trick is to strike the correct balance where you create a disciplined cohesive unit as you say, but one that still alows individual talented players to express themselves without sacrificing too much of their natural game...

point being that in my opinion, in addition to great coaching, tactics etc.....having a special player or players, with the propensity to rise to the occasion, and steer the reins beyond what is "coachable" is an invaluable asset to a great team....and I think empirical evidence lends support to that notion....

I also think that such individualism can be coached away to the detriment of the team, by some overly rigid purist coaches who believe too much in the "perfect unit"...Ever watch a dutch team, and think they are a bit overcoached?

Passarella, Ardiles, Thuram, Zidane, Maradonna, Pirlo, Cannavaro, Mattheus, Voeller, Klinsmann, Brehme & Mauro Silva- not golden boots....no clouded focus there- was just making a case for players who IMO stepped up and played more than their "role" as designed by coaching, tactics and strategy....

I think futbol fan was arguing that he's not convinced that the U.S. has produced a player with that ability yet.....

But like I said, I think we're talking about two slightly different things here.....my 2 cents

[Bakes]

The players you mention, Ronaldo in 02 as well...all won the Golden Boot and I think that is what's clouding your focus.  Winning the Golden Boot to me isn't evidence that you so dominated the game that you stood out above and beyond the contributions of your teammates.  All it means is that you scored the most goals...end talk.

If you have to start listing three and four players...then it's more of a team effort.

Well it's evident that we were talking about two slightly different things...and probably agreeing more than disagreeing, hence my original stance:

I think the trick is to strike the correct balance where you create a disciplined cohesive unit as you say, but one that still alows individual talented players to express themselves without sacrificing too much of their natural game...

point being that in my opinion, in addition to great coaching, tactics etc.....having a special player or players, with the propensity to rise to the occasion, and steer the reins beyond what is "coachable" is an invaluable asset to a great team....and I think empirical evidence lends support to that notion....

I also think that such individualism can be coached away to the detriment of the team, by some overly rigid purist coaches who believe too much in the "perfect unit"...Ever watch a dutch team, and think they are a bit overcoached?

Passarella, Ardiles, Thuram, Zidane, Maradonna, Pirlo, Cannavaro, Mattheus, Voeller, Klinsmann, Brehme & Mauro Silva- not golden boots....no clouded focus there- was just making a case for players who IMO stepped up and played more than their "role" as designed by coaching, tactics and strategy....

But like I said, I think we're talking about two slightly different things here.....my 2 cents

By initially quoting me in your response it made it seem like you were countering my points..not adding another factor into the equation, but all in all I agree with you that individual players who are able to tap that skill reserve and step it up during the game is the key difference.

I also agree that individualism can be coached out of a team...case in point England.  My psychiatrist says that I shouldn't discuss the Dutch MNT.

We picking at straws...not all the players you mentioned won the golden boot.  With the exception of Maradonna, none really stepped out the stratosphere in my mind.  The others either won the golden boot, thus clouding your focus...or yuh focus juss clouded.



lol.

[kicker]

Anyway with Trini soccer we have that creative component but what we don't have is a structure that can translate that game onto the big field.

or so we think. I think in Trinidad we confuse having players that appreciate & emulate creativity, with actual creative players...

We like to think that our players have all this individual skill yadda yadda....the quicker we realize how untrue that is, the better...

I agree we lack the structure....but we also lack the creative player....trust me.....

[Bakes]

....trust me.....

Who de fack is you again?

[Filho]

Ok..everyone agrees that there is no such thing as a one man show. But do you need a player or players that display enough mooments of individual brilliance that you absolutely cannot see the team winning a WC without them. Nope but it seem to improve your chances. Italy 2006 is the prime example imo.

Italy won WC 2006 without any unpredictable, brilliant player. It was supposed to be Totti, but he was recovering from injury and was absolute shite. A shadow of himself. And everyone knows it. Pirlo is an outstanding technical player and had a great WC, but he is a player that is only as good as the players around him. If everyone is off, you get the feeling that Pirlo won't hurt you unless its from a dead ball. He cannot 'carry' a team the way people talk about Maradona 'carrying' Argentina in 1986.

Brazil 2002 - I'd say that the Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldo triangle was close to the example people speak of. Especially Rivaldo. Here you can single out 3 players who consistently displayed individual brilliance that won games.

France 1998 - No one. Absolute team effort. Not even Zidane. Sure he shone in the final. But if you're honest with yourself..he did not 'carry' France. And France  could have arguably beaten that Brazil without him.

Brazil 1994 - Romario. Undisputed matchwinner in a team that ironically displayed the virtues of teamwork more than any other Brazilian team in recent history. But you get the feeling that Romario won matches for Brazil. You get the feeling that without him...no way they would have made it. It's just perception, like all the others..but its a hard perception to shake.

Germany 1990 - Noone. Workman like performance in the dying rounds. Mattheus shone above all in the group games. But by the time Germany got to the quarters they were grinding out results and were lucky to get past England. Hugely uninspired in the final against Argentina and got a shite penalty cuz noone wanted Argentina to win

Argentina 1986 - Maradona...like no other

Italy 1982 - None. Rossi turned into a deadly marksman aaginst Brazil and then went on to be top scorer. But he scored goals that were put on a plate for him. Got some great assists from the Braziian defense too   Team effort all the way.

Argentina 1978 - Kempes. Star studded team, but Kempez is remembered most...Some of his goals were simply brilliant.

Seems like a mixed bag to me. You can get by with a strong team that has no real outstanding star..especially in today's game. But if you do have a team like that..the difference between the best palyer and the weakest link has to be almost nonexistant. And of course..all these players are still extremely talented. It always helps to have one or two exceptional, enigmatic talents...but in they end..I think they're most often just more fun to watch than actually more effective.

The US senior team is not at that level yet, but maybe Justin Mapp and Dempsey culd take it to another level. Landon throwing away his chance stying in the MLS. Felihaber have some funk. You could see he want to try to play and show some flair, but he younga nd still making plenty mistakes.

last point: Trinis need to stop confusing being able to dribble with creativity. Dwarika, Latapy..last 2 world class creative players we've had. Dwarkia could have been something

[kicker]

....trust me.....

Who de fack is you again?

De boss 

[dinho]

just off topic...  yuh eh notice how men putting out some subtle disclaimers in their post now to buffer from Bake n Shark trying to pick yuh post apart with some kinda ridiculous examination of yuh wording or context or some other shite??

all of sudden, men post have to include "imo" in bold..

Or to kill a talk and move on, "ok we all agree x".

Or, "not trying to start ah argument here eh but..."

dem ting is called 5-page-avoidance phrases

LOL

[kicker]

just off topic...  yuh eh notice how men putting out some subtle disclaimers in their post now to buffer from Bake n Shark trying to pick yuh post apart with some kinda ridiculous examination of yuh wording or context or some other shite??

all of sudden, men post have to include "imo" in bold..

Or to kill a talk and move on, "ok we all agree x".

Or, "not trying to start ah argument here eh but..."

dem ting is called 5-page-avoidance phrases

LOL

Hoss as a willing participant victim of a 5 page episode....I could tell yuh, a lil IMO here and there is very valuable on this msg board...unless like yuh like overtalk & debate 

nah all kix aside, I like de back and forth as long as the topic is interesting