The Stretford End- Home of the Champions

[Daft Trini]

Even though they have been skimming the club profits... what are they doing with the money cause the Buck's suck and they have not been spending money on that team also 

[kicker]

Good post xixgon. 

I eh no Man U man, but from everything that I've heard about the club situation, the protests seem reasonable and very much par for the course. 

It's no pure coincidence that the two posters fighting down the protesting "waggonists" are Chelsea fans...

[xixgon]

Yeah Utd may be a company on paper - but it's true owners are the fans. And maybe they have no actual say on what the Glazers should do with their money - but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't show their dissapproval of the current management if they feel they need to.

I don't know what Chelsea fans would do if their club was in the same situation - but I personally don't just care solely about the success of the team in footballing terms - I also care about how it's run.

I believe that fans should want the best for their club both on and off the pitch - both in the short-term and long-term. And I don't believe you're a 'waggonist' for supporting the green and gold & LUHG movement, just because you don't have the means to follow the team in person and you're not close enough to the machinations of the team to have been part of it from the beginning. Indeed it's generally the fans that have a serious interest in the team that know of it's significance and can explain its origin & their own personal gripe. It's the fly-by-nighters and casual supporters that either are either uncertain of the issue or just don't care much either way.
 

[Small Magician aka Wazza]

Yeah Utd may be a company on paper - but it's true owners are the fans. And maybe they have no actual say on what the Glazers should do with their money - but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't show their dissapproval of the current management if they feel they need to.

I don't know what Chelsea fans would do if their club was in the same situation - but I personally don't just care solely about the success of the team in footballing terms - I also care about how it's run.

I believe that fans should want the best for their club both on and off the pitch - both in the short-term and long-term. And I don't believe you're a 'waggonist' for supporting the green and gold & LUHG movement, just because you don't have the means to follow the team in person and you're not close enough to the machinations of the team to have been part of it from the beginning. Indeed it's generally the fans that have a serious interest in the team that know of it's significance and can explain its origin & their own personal gripe. It's the fly-by-nighters and casual supporters that either are either uncertain of the issue or just don't care much either way.
 

You don't have to explain your loyalty to those shithongs like elan dinho and company....but thanks for doing it so they can learn a thing from me and you about loyalty

LUHG

[xixgon]

Even though they have been skimming the club profits... what are they doing with the money cause the Buck's suck and they have not been spending money on that team also 

Yeah the Buccaneers isn't exactly a great example of their past 'endeavours' - but in fairness, the Buccs are not near the financial juggernaught and brandname that Utd are. The Glazers would have to be either insanely incompetent or greedy to take Utd to the administrators. The Glazers did put a fair amount of money into the Buccs in order to make them successful, but of course retaining success in the NFL is difficult, and after that one season they haven't done much since. This is a team that they had more of a vested emotional interest in - seeing as it's where they take residence (& a market they could proudly bask in the attention of) - and being a sport they actually seemed to be fans of. Utd conversely, is an ATM, nothing more nothing less - you maintain the ATM to make sure that it's working properly, u update it and expand it's programming - but at the end of the day it's still just a source of money to line your wallet.

I have to take up your point about Utd not having any world class defenders though - to me Evra is clearly world class (and indeed may be the best left back in the world - only Cole & perhaps Abidal have any other say in that). Vidic and Ferdinand are also world class to me when fit - and Utd has the best defense in England and one of the best in the world when it's first choice is together. That fact is the main reason that we've been so successful over the last few years -and hopefully it's what carries us home over the coming months (especially considering how many points we've already dropped due to the injuries there).

Our wingers may not be world class - but Valencia has been very good for us this year - and even Nani has shown signs of life. If Valencia continues to progress at this rate (especially if he gets even an adequate left foot), and Nani tightens up his game and becomes smarter on the field - then who knows.

Striking is definitely a dept that's up in the air though - investment likely needs to be made in the summertime - possibly in the central midfield and goalkeeping areas as well. Though I wouldn't be horribly dismayed if prices are still too high and youth instead is given a chance to flourish.

[Blue]

I don't know what Chelsea fans would do if their club was in the same situation - but I personally don't just care solely about the success of the team in footballing terms - I also care about how it's run.

Why? Assuming dey eh going bust (which they aren't and will never do) why is it your (or anyone's) business how much money de club has as long as dey winning?

[Mango Chow!]

He eh talkin' no mess at all. jed. Whatever the glazers do with the team's profits is not the fans' concern as long as they invest a reasonable amount of money into the team to keep it going as normal.

First of all that's crap...Secondly one could argue that they didn't invest enough of the profits into the team to "keep it going as normal" (maybe they didn't even turn enough of a profit to support their massive cost structure/overhead...ask yourself why?) hence the reason they had to rely on so much debt financing and the fire sale of expensive players to remain healthy and liquid...

So exactly how much money did they re-invest into the team to keep it going as normal, Padnah?
I eh hear nutting about the players not receiving their wages, having to provide their own training bibs and/or bringing pack lunches to training.  And wait nuh, selling cronaldo when he clearly wanted to go where more money was calling him is equivalent to a fire sale? Who else they sell that fit the category of "expensive players"?


The fans are buying into the team but they not buying the team. Once the money leave their hands, whatever they spend it on, it's no longer theirs and there is no agreement to claim any amount of ownership for any team in return for money spent in pursuit of entertainment.  

With all due respect Mango, you can't be serious with this statement...First of all consumers don't need an agreement with the business sector on profit allocation in order to have an opinion on the use of funds and financial management of a business with which they have a vested interest.  Iz not like they asking for their money back, and they not claiming any ownership.  What are you talking about?  They're asking that the Glazers to take more of a footballing interest in the club- one that might be evidenced by less risky financing behavior and more prudent management, and possibly a greater presence at games.  That's something that is highly respected in the football world, all around not just at Man U.  One of the reasons that Chelsea fans love Abramovich is because he's actually a staunch Chelsea Supporter.  Man U fans don't feel the same way about the Glazers.  Football might be big business today, but some virtues of football club ownership have survived the decades of transformation from grassroots community based recreational clubs, to billion dollar sports and entertainment organizations...and these virtues are still given alot of value today all over the world.  An owner with an actuall footballing interest is one of them...and it is popular opinion that the Glazers are strictly business

   ...and none of that has prevented manu from being the third richest football club (revenue) in the world.
Some may argue that, had it not been for the decrease in value in the British pound, they would have been number 1.  I coulda swear that the fans who crying out about the business dealings have been expressing more concern about the team turning profits than the glazers being in the stands. (and if you listen to the glazers, they attend more than their fair share of games.....where the fans probably don't make them feel welcomed anyway)

The only return on the fans' investment that they should expect is an intangible one and that is the gratification of the team being a winning team.....with "history".  And any manu fan willing to make their voice be heard will gladly tell you the have that still to this day, long after their winning precedent had been set how many years ago and throughout the glazers' ownership.

That's not for YOU to decide
Well, I guess at the end of the day, I don't place any more expectation on the owners of teams I support than to put a winning team on the field and I really don't see the practicality of placing my expectations any higher.  These owners tend to be already-wealthy business men and women that couldn't care less what the average fan really feels about the ownership, as long as that fan keeps spending his/her money on "the team".
At the end of the season, all we get rewarded for our loyalty is a thanks for our support and increased prices in all things "team" from the gate to the concession stand to the merchandising store.


 manu is arguably the most popular (club) in the world, one of the wealthiest and one of the most profitable.  If AIG fall out the picture due to the world economy, another big corporation will fall right in to have their names on the front of that jersey.....wait nuh....ent dat done happen arready? Not to mention that if the glazers did decide to sell, they would pull a record-breaking price tag for the team.  Man, please.  All dem manu waggonists fussin' over nutting. This team eh folding over no time soon and the business template the the glazers using is no different from that of the previous owners  They just guilty of bringing in more debt and in a small part, by being american.  

If you don't think they have anything to worry about from a financial point of view, then ok...I don't know too much intricate details, but I want to agree that a club like Man U will be a financially healthy going-concern institution til the end of time.  I can't agree though that a fan who takes a deeper interest in the running of his club off the field is labeled a waggonist.  That's a baffling irony....I also can't agree that the consumer shouldn't have voice, based on standards that YOU (who has never walked a minute in their shoes) determine are appropriate from what is obviously a very biased point of view

Jed, I doh have to walk a nanosecond in anybody shoes.  I walk in my own.  At the end of the day, I am no more or less passionate about this sport and my (many) teams than the next man or woman and I have my reasons for affiliating with any team just as the the next person has theirs.  The "waggonists" talk is purely for purposes of talkin' shit on this forum jed and you takin' it a little too personal on their behalf. "Don't take medicine for other people belly ache." 

Yuh bias ringing clear here dread...because alot of what you're saying either lacks any sort of compassion for an honest fan with reasonable intentions, or simply doesn't make sense. 

  Yuh getting tie-up, Kicker.  My opinion has everything to do with perspective and nothing to do with bias.  At the end of the day, my reasonable intention is to see my team go out and perform and (hopefully) win games and titles. (and see John Obi Mikel be given a more attacking role as a midfielder)  How much more reasonable do my intentions need to be than that?  Aren't I spending money and investing my emotions into teams like everybody else?  What makes you or Small Mag or DieHard or some manu supporter in Taiwan or Australia or Manchester more "honest" a fan than me?   You think when I saw my first F.A. Cup final I had any idea about who the owners of either team were and what their profit margins were?   I just refuse to let backroom-boardroom business shift my focus.  At the end of the day, manu is now, and always be an apex predator when it comes to generating income to cover their costs.  Some of their fans' worry that the team will suddenly be relegated to bottom-feeder status is just more worry over nothing.  If the team start (really) losing more and more money and winning less and less titles or making less UEFA appearances, and becoming less and less popular, then is time to worry.  The glazers and more owners will come and go.  manu is still going to be manu.

[xixgon]

I don't know what Chelsea fans would do if their club was in the same situation - but I personally don't just care solely about the success of the team in footballing terms - I also care about how it's run.

Why? Assuming dey eh going bust (which they aren't and will never do) why is it your (or anyone's) business how much money de club has as long as dey winning?

Haha clearly u eh ready my first post, so I eh go bother again na

[kicker]

So exactly how much money did they re-invest into the team to keep it going as normal, Padnah?
I eh hear nutting about the players not receiving their wages, having to provide their own training bibs and/or bringing pack lunches to training.  And wait nuh, selling cronaldo when he clearly wanted to go where more money was calling him is equivalent to a fire sale? Who else they sell that fit the category of "expensive players"?

Yuh displaying a very limited understanding of business and financing.  Just because players all got paid doesn't mean that their balance sheet is carrying alot of risk- in fact their players could have possibly been fully paid using borrowed funds...what's your point?  I agree the sale of Ronaldo wasn't technically a fire sale, but if, as some allude to, the proceeds from the sale were necessary to keep the club liquid in its current state, then it's not too far away.

   ...and none of that has prevented manu from being the third richest football club (revenue) in the world.

Revenue is the top line....says nothing about everything that follows in the P&L...Says nothing about profit...and it says nothing about balance sheet debt.

Well, I guess at the end of the day, I don't place any more expectation on the owners of teams I support than to put a winning team on the field and I really don't see the practicality of placing my expectations any higher.  These owners tend to be already-wealthy business men and women that couldn't care less what the average fan really feels about the ownership, as long as that fan keeps spending his/her money on "the team".
At the end of the season, all we get rewarded for our loyalty is a thanks for our support and increased prices in all things "team" from the gate to the concession stand to the merchandising store.

Like I say, that's YOU....not everything else.

Jed, I doh have to walk a nanosecond in anybody shoes.  I walk in my own.  At the end of the day, I am no more or less passionate about this sport and my (many) teams than the next man or woman and I have my reasons for affiliating with any team just as the the next person has theirs.  The "waggonists" talk is purely for purposes of talkin' shit on this forum jed and you takin' it a little too personal on their behalf. "Don't take medicine for other people belly ache." 

Ok- that's the bias I'm talking about...

  Yuh getting tie-up, Kicker.  My opinion has everything to do with perspective and nothing to do with bias. 

That doesn't make sense.  If your opinion has EVERYTHING to do with perspective (yours of course unless you feel you could talk for everybody), then there's no way it can have NOTHING to do with bias.

Anyhow, I understand your point of view, but I think you're using your personal point of view and applying it to a mass of people, many of whom have a strong emotional connection to a club that you cannot realistically relate to....on top of which, you're choosing to class them as waggonists (i.e. being judgmenta- picong or not).  I also think you're missing the point of the protest.  If the club supporters disagree with management style as far as risky financing, and a "strictly business" approach, I think they have all right to say how they feel (unless the Man U business formula is the ONLY formula for success of the field)..... regardless of whether or not YOU know that Man U will be financially healthy in the indefinite future.  It's not the point.

[Mango Chow!]

So exactly how much money did they re-invest into the team to keep it going as normal, Padnah?
I eh hear nutting about the players not receiving their wages, having to provide their own training bibs and/or bringing pack lunches to training.  And wait nuh, selling cronaldo when he clearly wanted to go where more money was calling him is equivalent to a fire sale? Who else they sell that fit the category of "expensive players"?

Yuh displaying a very limited understanding of business and financing.  Just because players all got paid doesn't mean that their balance sheet is carrying alot of risk- in fact their players could have possibly been fully paid using borrowed funds...what's your point?  I agree the sale of Ronaldo wasn't technically a fire sale, but if, as some allude to, the proceeds from the sale were necessary to keep the club liquid in its current state, then it's not too far away.
  I am not an econ major like you, Padnah but common sense tells me to expect for there to be some degree of "risk" in any so-called business venture.  I'm sure the glazers, going in to this venture, assumed there would be lots of risk involved.....but I'm willing to bet that they saw an opportunity to use a profitable venture that is the manu machine, to wipe out some, if not all of their own debts.  I'm quite sure, with my limited knowledge, that the glazers are going to wheel, deal, restructure, re-finance and do whatever they have to, to keep this team doing what it does on the pitch and in their coffers, all in the name of gradually erasing the debt they saddled the club with. But exactly how close is this impending fire sale? Because this is one team I would love to see go into administration.......in MY lifetime
 

 ...and none of that has prevented manu from being the third richest football club (revenue) in the world.

Revenue is the top line....says nothing about everything that follows in the P&L...Says nothing about profit...and it says nothing about balance sheet debt.
  ....there are very few businesses that have recorded profits 100% of the time or haven't ridden out their debts to eventually turn profits

Well, I guess at the end of the day, I don't place any more expectation on the owners of teams I support than to put a winning team on the field and I really don't see the practicality of placing my expectations any higher.  These owners tend to be already-wealthy business men and women that couldn't care less what the average fan really feels about the ownership, as long as that fan keeps spending his/her money on "the team".
At the end of the season, all we get rewarded for our loyalty is a thanks for our support and increased prices in all things "team" from the gate to the concession stand to the merchandising store.

Like I say, that's YOU....not everything else.  Show me teams that do otherwise.

Jed, I doh have to walk a nanosecond in anybody shoes.  I walk in my own.  At the end of the day, I am no more or less passionate about this sport and my (many) teams than the next man or woman and I have my reasons for affiliating with any team just as the the next person has theirs.  The "waggonists" talk is purely for purposes of talkin' shit on this forum jed and you takin' it a little too personal on their behalf. "Don't take medicine for other people belly ache." 

Ok- that's the bias I'm talking about... That makes us all biased.

  Yuh getting tie-up, Kicker.  My opinion has everything to do with perspective and nothing to do with bias. 

That's sort of a dunce statement.  If your opinion has EVERYTHING to do with perspective (yours of course unless you feel you could talk for everybody), then there's no way it can have NOTHING to do with bias.

No, professor, my use of the word "perspective" has everything to do with "keeping things in perspective"  jed not to just seeing things MY way or professing to speaking for anybody else...it is about not worrying about a catastrophic thunderstorm at every sign of a dark cloud.  Two seasons ago the naysayers were "alluding to" Chelsea going into deep doo-doo "if" Abramovic pulled out and Chelsea were reporting losses then, building a new training facility and  etc., etc., etc....But it doesn't take the economic scholar that you are to see what success ON the pitch, does for a popular team off it.  It was quite obvious that the glazers were always going to do with this team just what they are doing now and all the protests in the world weren't and aren't going to stop them. The team is still finding ways to win and all that does is generate even more and more revenue, which will help erase more and more of their  (glazers') debts.     

 
Anyhow, I understand your point of view, but I think you're using your personal point of view and applying it to a mass of people, many of whom have a strong emotional connection to a club that you cannot realistically relate to....on top of which, you're choosing to class them as waggonists (i.e. being judgmenta- picong or not).  I also think you're missing the point of the protest.  If the club supporters disagree with management style as far as risky financing, and a "strictly business" approach, I think they have all right to say how they feel (unless the Man U business formula is the ONLY formula for success of the field)..... regardless of whether or not YOU know that Man U will be financially healthy in the indefinite future.  It's not the point.

  I really don't see where I referred to any mass of people as waggonists and I have no idea where or why you are reading into that.  I think you takin' the waggonist talk to places I've never been.
   I never said or implied that the manu fans the world over, but especially the ones in their city, don't have the right to voice their displeasure.  I just think they are wasting their time and I am certainly entitled to have and express that opinion, just as you are entitled to disagree with me.  Time and history are always better judges than you or I, or a million and one manu fans.   

[JDB]

I think you missing a few pieces of the puzzle chow. I too thought that the Glazers would be using profit to clear debt but they haven't. You might not consider that a fan's problem but it is bcause money that could be invested in the club is not.

Furthermore something that armchair fans will not feel but the scarf wearing stadium going protesters do feel is the huge spike in ticket prices. United went from being the best value for money in the league with middle of the pack ticket prices to being right up there with the London clubs. A 50% increase in 4 years.

Everybody else complains about high prices and taxes and how those funds are used so why not fans. In a very real sense the money from those increases have been siphoned directly by the Glazers, the interest and the numerous refinancing costs incurred by the Glazers since the team investment has not increased by 50%.

But the real concern is the future. I expect that things will be fine but if the Glazers hit a rough patch and sell under duress the fans will be at the whims of another unknown owner. It could be an Abramovich or it could be one of the pretenders like Portsmouth get saddled with. Much better for the fans to exert some pressure and try to have a say in the direction of the club.

[Bakes]

To add to what others have been saying... consider that previous owners John Magnier and J.P. Mc-whathename bought the club out from under Murdoch and made clear their intentions to use it as purely an investment, yet lacked the leverage to exercise total unilateral control of the team.  Their stake was just north of 30% at the time while Shareholders United (the present MUST) exercised a 17% stake.  Now come the Glazers who purchass not just a controlling interest, but systematically buy up 90% (it may be more now) of the outstanding shares, disenfranchising the very fans who today are leading the protests.  This explains in part the emotional response to the Glazers ownership.

While there is nothing fiscally unsound about degree of control exercised by the Glazers, the manner in which they financed that purchase is what is of concern to not only ManU fans, but indeed many football people in England.  Don't think that what has befallen Leeds and Portsmouth (and what almost happened to City) is that far-fetched from happening on the other side of Manchester.  When Magnier and McManus sold their stake the club owed not a penny.  The sale to the Glazers came with an immediate debt-load of $675 billion dollars.  Nearly 5 years later that debt still hovers around $700 million dollars today.  So here you have a club which historically has been not only one of the most successful, but also most prudently-run organizations in the world, forget football, forget England.... best-run in the world, when you factor in not only profitability, but consider the tremendous cache of the ManU brand... now being saddled with a shit load of debt.

Today that brand may be no more diminished than it was under previous ownership, and indeed there has been no drop off in productivity on the field as well, but ManU supporters don't have to look very far to be reminded of just how calamitous spendthrift investing can be.  AIG had long been the milestone by which every insurance company the world over measured itself.  Many don't realize it but AIG has had very successful tentacles even in TnT... does the name ALGICO ring a bell?  ALGICO is but one of several global subsidiaries of this once formiddable giant.  The star in the AIG crown had long been AIG's Asian subsidiary (AIA)... which just two weeks ago was jettisoned in a fire sale for $35.5 bn.  Another valuable sub- ALICO (note, not ALGICO) was sold over the weekend to MetLife for another $15.5 bn.

Well "what does this have to do with anything?" you ask... it has a lot.  It stands for the principle that when you owe money your creditors are only going to concern themselves with the bottomline, either turning a profit or recouping as much of the debt owed even if that means taking a hit in the pocket so as to stanch the financial bleeding.  The ManU. debt has yet to be reduced under the Glazers and in fact it has instead grown.  This means that whatever profit the club has turned over the past 4 years has either been reinvested into player salary or operating costs... or alternatively has been siphoned out of the organizations by the Glazers.  ManU. has never before had issues making payroll or operating costs... so smart money is that the profits were taken out of the club rather than being directed towards buying talent or paying club-related costs.  I don't know much about the health of the Glazers other businesses... but I bet the current picture isn't rosy.  Their empire was was built on the shopping mall business, and one can only assume that with the global retrenchment in commercial real estate that they took some lumps there as well.

The Bucs have historically been one of the worst-run franchises, under Hugh Culverhouse before them, but definitely under the Glazers since they purchased the team.  They hired Tony Dungy who was then defensive coordinator of the Steelers and made him their head coach... and under his guide, invested strongly in defense.  That defensive-minded team progressed rapidly under Dungy, going from floormats to perennial division winners.  To make the story short, they fired Dungy in 2000 and brought in John Gruden... who promptly won a SuperBowl with Dungy's team... and failed to do much otherwise in his 7 or 8 years at the helm.... why? Because all of the aging stars on defense got old and the team was too cheap to replenish talent as it either aged or left via free agency.  If the club isn't struggling, they can't be doing that well either, not with all that losing, and having to compete in a small TV market at that.

So it's not a reach to presume that money was siphoned out of ManU. to pay down the private losses of the Glazers elsewhere.  Putting this picture all together, there is nothing stopping the Glazers from running ManU. into the ground by continuing to take money out of the club... all they have to do is decide at some point to sell, walk away with their moneybags filled at Old Trafford, ship them back to Tampa and leave the club saddled with debt.  Sure new ownership may step up... or its creditors just might step in and take control of the team. Either scenario is worrisome to fans who in addition to a good product on the field, would like to have stable, committed ownership... something which they don't really have at this moment.  The Glazers are not football people and little is known about their long-term interest in the club.  Whomever succeeds them may likewise be only motivated by profit and may provide more stability at the helm, as well as they may not.  Fans are rightfully concerned about the direction all of this has taken, and it is beyond naive to suggest that they ought to just focus on what is happening on the field.  There is such a thing as fool's gold... Lehman Brothers was profitable right up until the very end... or so it seemed.  It only just materialized a few days ago that the true financial picture was hidden from auditors for the better part of two years before the 158-year old investment giant imploded in September 2008.  The lessons about the perils of floating large leveraged debt have been laid bare for all to see.  But as the saying goes, none so blind as those who will not see.

As a Liverpool fan I'm just as concerned as the ManU. supporters... except our position is much more dire.  I could never match the passion of some on this board, let alone those following in the stands and in the trenches in England. Some of that is natural, some of it is a conscious decision borne of personal lessons learned about getting too passionate about sports.  Anyways, sorry for the book, but much of this was pure stream of conscious and I really ent take time to edit, proofread and all ah dat.  I understand why MUST and its supporters are concerned and think the protests a justified response to their frustrations.  Futile as it must seem, this slap in the face of the Glazers should in the least bring a measure of shame to them if they have any decency at all.  Maybe they don't, and it won't... who knows.

 

[xixgon]

To add to what others have been saying... consider that previous owners John Magnier and J.P. Mc-whathename bought the club out from under Murdoch and made clear their intentions to use it as purely an investment, yet lacked the leverage to exercise total unilateral control of the team.  Their stake was just north of 30% at the time while Shareholders United (the present MUST) exercised a 17% stake.  Now come the Glazers who purchass not just a controlling interest, but systematically buy up 90% (it may be more now) of the outstanding shares, disenfranchising the very fans who today are leading the protests.  This explains in part the emotional response to the Glazers ownership.

While there is nothing fiscally unsound about degree of control exercised by the Glazers, the manner in which they financed that purchase is what is of concern to not only ManU fans, but indeed many football people in England.  Don't think that what has befallen Leeds and Portsmouth (and what almost happened to City) is that far-fetched from happening on the other side of Manchester.  When Magnier and McManus sold their stake the club owed not a penny.  The sale to the Glazers came with an immediate debt-load of $675 billion dollars.  Nearly 5 years later that debt still hovers around $700 million dollars today.  So here you have a club which historically has been not only one of the most successful, but also most prudently-run organizations in the world, forget football, forget England.... best-run in the world, when you factor in not only profitability, but consider the tremendous cache of the ManU brand... now being saddled with a shit load of debt.

Today that brand may be no more diminished than it was under previous ownership, and indeed there has been no drop off in productivity on the field as well, but ManU supporters don't have to look very far to be reminded of just how calamitous spendthrift investing can be.  AIG had long been the milestone by which every insurance company the world over measured itself.  Many don't realize it but AIG has had very successful tentacles even in TnT... does the name ALGICO ring a bell?  ALGICO is but one of several global subsidiaries of this once formiddable giant.  The star in the AIG crown had long been AIG's Asian subsidiary (AIA)... which just two weeks ago was jettisoned in a fire sale for $35.5 bn.  Another valuable sub- ALICO (note, not ALGICO) was sold over the weekend to MetLife for another $15.5 bn.

Well "what does this have to do with anything?" you ask... it has a lot.  It stands for the principle that when you owe money your creditors are only going to concern themselves with the bottomline, either turning a profit or recouping as much of the debt owed even if that means taking a hit in the pocket so as to stanch the financial bleeding.  The ManU. debt has yet to be reduced under the Glazers and in fact it has instead grown.  This means that whatever profit the club has turned over the past 4 years has either been reinvested into player salary or operating costs... or alternatively has been siphoned out of the organizations by the Glazers.  ManU. has never before had issues making payroll or operating costs... so smart money is that the profits were taken out of the club rather than being directed towards buying talent or paying club-related costs.  I don't know much about the health of the Glazers other businesses... but I bet the current picture isn't rosy.  Their empire was was built on the shopping mall business, and one can only assume that with the global retrenchment in commercial real estate that they took some lumps there as well.

The Bucs have historically been one of the worst-run franchises, under Hugh Culverhouse before them, but definitely under the Glazers since they purchased the team.  They hired Tony Dungy who was then defensive coordinator of the Steelers and made him their head coach... and under his guide, invested strongly in defense.  That defensive-minded team progressed rapidly under Dungy, going from floormats to perennial division winners.  To make the story short, they fired Dungy in 2000 and brought in John Gruden... who promptly won a SuperBowl with Dungy's team... and failed to do much otherwise in his 7 or 8 years at the helm.... why? Because all of the aging stars on defense got old and the team was too cheap to replenish talent as it either aged or left via free agency.  If the club isn't struggling, they can't be doing that well either, not with all that losing, and having to compete in a small TV market at that.

So it's not a reach to presume that money was siphoned out of ManU. to pay down the private losses of the Glazers elsewhere.  Putting this picture all together, there is nothing stopping the Glazers from running ManU. into the ground by continuing to take money out of the club... all they have to do is decide at some point to sell, walk away with their moneybags filled at Old Trafford, ship them back to Tampa and leave the club saddled with debt.  Sure new ownership may step up... or its creditors just might step in and take control of the team. Either scenario is worrisome to fans who in addition to a good product on the field, would like to have stable, committed ownership... something which they don't really have at this moment.  The Glazers are not football people and little is known about their long-term interest in the club.  Whomever succeeds them may likewise be only motivated by profit and may provide more stability at the helm, as well as they may not.  Fans are rightfully concerned about the direction all of this has taken, and it is beyond naive to suggest that they ought to just focus on what is happening on the field.  There is such a thing as fool's gold... Lehman Brothers was profitable right up until the very end... or so it seemed.  It only just materialized a few days ago that the true financial picture was hidden from auditors for the better part of two years before the 158-year old investment giant imploded in September 2008.  The lessons about the perils of floating large leveraged debt have been laid bare for all to see.  But as the saying goes, none so blind as those who will not see.

As a Liverpool fan I'm just as concerned as the ManU. supporters... except our position is much more dire.  I could never match the passion of some on this board, let alone those following in the stands and in the trenches in England. Some of that is natural, some of it is a conscious decision borne of personal lessons learned about getting too passionate about sports.  Anyways, sorry for the book, but much of this was pure stream of conscious and I really ent take time to edit, proofread and all ah dat.  I understand why MUST and its supporters are concerned and think the protests a justified response to their frustrations.  Futile as it must seem, this slap in the face of the Glazers should in the least bring a measure of shame to them if they have any decency at all.  Maybe they don't, and it won't... who knows.

 

Great Post.

[D.H.W]

i love my team 

[Small Magician aka Wazza]

i love my team 

oh so much 

3-0 FT... some beautiful football in the second half

Wazza with 2 and Berbawesome with the other

2nd goal was amazing play from Berba...

[Daft Trini]

To add to what others have been saying... consider that previous owners John Magnier and J.P. Mc-whathename bought the club out from under Murdoch and made clear their intentions to use it as purely an investment, yet lacked the leverage to exercise total unilateral control of the team.  Their stake was just north of 30% at the time while Shareholders United (the present MUST) exercised a 17% stake.  Now come the Glazers who purchass not just a controlling interest, but systematically buy up 90% (it may be more now) of the outstanding shares, disenfranchising the very fans who today are leading the protests.  This explains in part the emotional response to the Glazers ownership.

While there is nothing fiscally unsound about degree of control exercised by the Glazers, the manner in which they financed that purchase is what is of concern to not only ManU fans, but indeed many football people in England.  Don't think that what has befallen Leeds and Portsmouth (and what almost happened to City) is that far-fetched from happening on the other side of Manchester.  When Magnier and McManus sold their stake the club owed not a penny.  The sale to the Glazers came with an immediate debt-load of $675 billion dollars.  Nearly 5 years later that debt still hovers around $700 million dollars today.  So here you have a club which historically has been not only one of the most successful, but also most prudently-run organizations in the world, forget football, forget England.... best-run in the world, when you factor in not only profitability, but consider the tremendous cache of the ManU brand... now being saddled with a shit load of debt.

Today that brand may be no more diminished than it was under previous ownership, and indeed there has been no drop off in productivity on the field as well, but ManU supporters don't have to look very far to be reminded of just how calamitous spendthrift investing can be.  AIG had long been the milestone by which every insurance company the world over measured itself.  Many don't realize it but AIG has had very successful tentacles even in TnT... does the name ALGICO ring a bell?  ALGICO is but one of several global subsidiaries of this once formiddable giant.  The star in the AIG crown had long been AIG's Asian subsidiary (AIA)... which just two weeks ago was jettisoned in a fire sale for $35.5 bn.  Another valuable sub- ALICO (note, not ALGICO) was sold over the weekend to MetLife for another $15.5 bn.

Well "what does this have to do with anything?" you ask... it has a lot.  It stands for the principle that when you owe money your creditors are only going to concern themselves with the bottomline, either turning a profit or recouping as much of the debt owed even if that means taking a hit in the pocket so as to stanch the financial bleeding.  The ManU. debt has yet to be reduced under the Glazers and in fact it has instead grown.  This means that whatever profit the club has turned over the past 4 years has either been reinvested into player salary or operating costs... or alternatively has been siphoned out of the organizations by the Glazers.  ManU. has never before had issues making payroll or operating costs... so smart money is that the profits were taken out of the club rather than being directed towards buying talent or paying club-related costs.  I don't know much about the health of the Glazers other businesses... but I bet the current picture isn't rosy.  Their empire was was built on the shopping mall business, and one can only assume that with the global retrenchment in commercial real estate that they took some lumps there as well.

The Bucs have historically been one of the worst-run franchises, under Hugh Culverhouse before them, but definitely under the Glazers since they purchased the team.  They hired Tony Dungy who was then defensive coordinator of the Steelers and made him their head coach... and under his guide, invested strongly in defense.  That defensive-minded team progressed rapidly under Dungy, going from floormats to perennial division winners.  To make the story short, they fired Dungy in 2000 and brought in John Gruden... who promptly won a SuperBowl with Dungy's team... and failed to do much otherwise in his 7 or 8 years at the helm.... why? Because all of the aging stars on defense got old and the team was too cheap to replenish talent as it either aged or left via free agency.  If the club isn't struggling, they can't be doing that well either, not with all that losing, and having to compete in a small TV market at that.

So it's not a reach to presume that money was siphoned out of ManU. to pay down the private losses of the Glazers elsewhere.  Putting this picture all together, there is nothing stopping the Glazers from running ManU. into the ground by continuing to take money out of the club... all they have to do is decide at some point to sell, walk away with their moneybags filled at Old Trafford, ship them back to Tampa and leave the club saddled with debt.  Sure new ownership may step up... or its creditors just might step in and take control of the team. Either scenario is worrisome to fans who in addition to a good product on the field, would like to have stable, committed ownership... something which they don't really have at this moment.  The Glazers are not football people and little is known about their long-term interest in the club.  Whomever succeeds them may likewise be only motivated by profit and may provide more stability at the helm, as well as they may not.  Fans are rightfully concerned about the direction all of this has taken, and it is beyond naive to suggest that they ought to just focus on what is happening on the field.  There is such a thing as fool's gold... Lehman Brothers was profitable right up until the very end... or so it seemed.  It only just materialized a few days ago that the true financial picture was hidden from auditors for the better part of two years before the 158-year old investment giant imploded in September 2008.  The lessons about the perils of floating large leveraged debt have been laid bare for all to see.  But as the saying goes, none so blind as those who will not see.

As a Liverpool fan I'm just as concerned as the ManU. supporters... except our position is much more dire.  I could never match the passion of some on this board, let alone those following in the stands and in the trenches in England. Some of that is natural, some of it is a conscious decision borne of personal lessons learned about getting too passionate about sports.  Anyways, sorry for the book, but much of this was pure stream of conscious and I really ent take time to edit, proofread and all ah dat.  I understand why MUST and its supporters are concerned and think the protests a justified response to their frustrations.  Futile as it must seem, this slap in the face of the Glazers should in the least bring a measure of shame to them if they have any decency at all.  Maybe they don't, and it won't... who knows.

 

Thanks for de insite.... yuh come outta hibernation... ah guess the north east finally melting eh...! 

[Mango Chow!]

I think you missing a few pieces of the puzzle chow. I too thought that the Glazers would be using profit to clear debt but they haven't. You might not consider that a fan's problem but it is bcause money that could be invested in the club is not.

Furthermore something that armchair fans will not feel but the scarf wearing stadium going protesters do feel is the huge spike in ticket prices. United went from being the best value for money in the league with middle of the pack ticket prices to being right up there with the London clubs. A 50% increase in 4 years.

Everybody else complains about high prices and taxes and how those funds are used so why not fans. In a very real sense the money from those increases have been siphoned directly by the Glazers, the interest and the numerous refinancing costs incurred by the Glazers since the team investment has not increased by 50%.

But the real concern is the future. I expect that things will be fine but if the Glazers hit a rough patch and sell under duress the fans will be at the whims of another unknown owner. It could be an Abramovich or it could be one of the pretenders like Portsmouth get saddled with. Much better for the fans to exert some pressure and try to have a say in the direction of the club.

JDB, yes, I might be missing a few small pieces of the puzzle as far as certain details may go, but it's not keeping me from seeing the big picture. Remember, as I have stated before, I am not saying that the manu fans don't have the right to voice their protests.  I just think that their protests were before, are now and will be in the future, falling on (decidedly) deaf ears.  First let me get to what Kicker pointed out is the main focus of a balance sheet: THE BOTTOM LINE.  My bottom line in all of this healthy debate is, and I will quote you to re-express it, "...I expect that things will be fine..." with manchester united.  This team IS English football, along with Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea, West Ham and maybe a few others (obviously, not necessarily in that order) but with the growing popularity and increasing revenue of the league and UEFA CL around the world and how much this team alone affects that......trust me, manu ain't going down like Portsmouth. In fact, I don't think they are going anywhere!  But even if  by snowball's chance they do, they will be right back up the following season like Juventus were and like Newcastle (another of England's top revenue teams) seems slated to be, come August.
  The manu fans were against the glazers' acquisition of this team from time their intent to buy was announced, right?  Right.  They started protesting, they threatened to boycott the team, yada, yada, yada. Every week, old trafford selling out. SRO. Glazers laughing all the way to the bank....and probably even collect a few yellow and green scarves of their own for posterity.
Amongst the litany of grievances they have against the glazers is that they don't really care about football...presumably, like other owners do....maybe even manu's previous owners? Well, if anybody really cared what the fans felt or was concerned that the glazers would just be buying the team for the opportunity to maybe siphon off profits and run manu into the ground they sure let one point something Billion ease their conscience.  I don't know what the procedure is for an entity to purchase an EPL team, but I would like to think that there must be some form of approval required form necessary parties entrusted with the care and best interests of the league, it's teams and maybe even, yes, the fans. Well, where was the concern for manu and their fans when the glazers were coming into this deal saddled with all this debt? It wasn't any secret then what their possible intentions could have been, right?  What happened?  The glazers got what they wanted and then some.  It's one "business" deal after another, Jed and there's nothing they can do to stop them.
 The next one try to proffer up that maybe the protesting would shame them....shame who? The time for the glazers to shame was when they were bringing all this debt to a highly profitable team.  No shame then, no shame now.  If the fans had to send a clear message, the time to do it would have been to really, actually boycott the games, especially at the beginning of the season, or at the insult of a 50% increase at the box office.  The attendance today was listed on Sky Sports as 75,207. Now, I know it's hard to just boycott games, but, unfortunately for all those voices making all this noise, the glazers know that too. Trust me, JDB, the glazers will continue to laugh all the way to the bank and manu will be fine.  They have every single right to shout and scream 'til their lungs collapse.  They are just wasting their time and energy. 
Respek, JDB.                   

[Disgruntled_Trini]

Rooney and Wazza and Giggsy and Scholsey and Berby and Fergie and Gary and who ever d phoq else is ah can ah worms.

Rooney this and Rooney that, hail the king. Not even in his dreams will Rooney ever be as good as the diminutive Argentinean. Hat-trick for Leo.

[triniairman]

Rooney and Wazza and Giggsy and Scholsey and Berby and Fergie and Gary and who ever d phoq else is ah can ah worms.

Rooney this and Rooney that, hail the king. Not even in his dreams will Rooney ever be as good as the diminutive Argentinean. Hat-trick for Leo.

buh WTF I does see here lol... Dry so, you just drink a keg a hatorade or what?

[D.H.W]

jealously

[dinho]

Rooney and Wazza and Giggsy and Scholsey and Berby and Fergie and Gary and who ever d phoq else is ah can ah worms.

Rooney this and Rooney that, hail the king. Not even in his dreams will Rooney ever be as good as the diminutive Argentinean. Hat-trick for Leo.

yo, what u doing up in the people and dem thread talking about overrated midgets that can't defend?? 

[sammy]

Rooney and Wazza and Giggsy and Scholsey and Berby and Fergie and Gary and who ever d phoq else is ah can ah worms.

Rooney this and Rooney that, hail the king. Not even in his dreams will Rooney ever be as good as the diminutive Argentinean. Hat-trick for Leo.

alla dem goals and allyuh still 2nd.

[Daft Trini]

Disgruntled when yuh get licks from yuh gyul doh come on we site and vent nah...... like yuh doh know dis is

www.manusocawarriors.net  know your place 

[Disgruntled_Trini]

Disgruntled when yuh get licks from yuh gyul doh come on we site and vent nah...... like yuh doh know dis is

www.manusocawarriors.net  know your place 

Doh worry, I know where I am.

yo, what u doing up in the people and dem thread talking about overrated midgets that can't defend?? 

small thing

[dinho]

Doh worry, I know where I am.

i eh go lie, this banner is a classic.

[Small Magician aka Wazza]

Anybody see Gerrard's elbow yesterday?

Imagine the Referee post match said he would have taken no action therefore taking away the possibility of the FA imposing a ban....Even though I'm 100% sure the FA would have bottled it as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtksxQSNmYU

A week after doing his V sign gesture to a Ref which means f**k off... he was warned by the FA..no fine no ban... This week he does this and no fine no ban... but yet Rio got a 4 match ban for hitting out at Fagan vs Hull City and Gary Neville gets fined for excessive celebration

LOL what a joke

[xixgon]

Anybody see Gerrard's elbow yesterday?

Imagine the Referee post match said he would have taken no action therefore taking away the possibility of the FA imposing a ban....Even though I'm 100% sure the FA would have bottled it as well


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtksxQSNmYU


A week after doing his V sign gesture to a Ref which means f**k off... he was warned by the FA..no fine no ban... This week he does this and no fine no ban... but yet Rio got a 4 match ban for hitting out at Fagan vs Hull City and Gary Neville gets fined for excessive celebration

LOL what a joke

Haha you sound surprised. Gerrard is just part of a band of players that gets away with pretty much anyting dey do. The FA either applies double standards or misses incidents completely.

Any other player would be facing some kind of reprimand (the common man - jail) for Gerrard assault in the bar - yet Gerrard got off scot-free.

Ferdinand for one has always been made an example of by the authorities - he gets 8 months for missing a drug test - whilst Manchester City player Christian Negouai was fined 2,000 pounds for missing the test because of 'traffic'. Indeed the FA attempted to increase the ban even further to 12 months.

Indeed Mascherano did something almost identical to what Rio got banned for 4 games for this season - yet even after video review, faced no punishment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBYpzicKdsU&fmt=18

Now I have no problem with players being punished both on and off the field for misconduct - but be consistent about it - don't be disproportionate and wily-nily. This is what makes if very difficult for fans to respect both the higher-ups and referees.

And this goes for Utd as well - for anyone that think I citing Ferdinand in bias - just be fair to everyone is all yes.

[Mango Chow!]

Anybody see Gerrard's elbow yesterday?

Imagine the Referee post match said he would have taken no action therefore taking away the possibility of the FA imposing a ban....Even though I'm 100% sure the FA would have bottled it as well


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtksxQSNmYU


A week after doing his V sign gesture to a Ref which means f**k off... he was warned by the FA..no fine no ban... This week he does this and no fine no ban... but yet Rio got a 4 match ban for hitting out at Fagan vs Hull City and Gary Neville gets fined for excessive celebration

LOL what a joke

Haha you sound surprised. Gerrard is just part of a band of players that gets away with pretty much anyting dey do. The FA either applies double standards or misses incidents completely.

Any other player would be facing some kind of reprimand (the common man - jail) for Gerrard assault in the bar - yet Gerrard got off scot-free.

Ferdinand for one has always been made an example of by the authorities - he gets 8 months for missing a drug test - whilst Manchester City player Christian Negouai was fined 2,000 pounds for missing the test because of 'traffic'. Indeed the FA attempted to increase the ban even further to 12 months.

Indeed Mascherano did something almost identical to what Rio got banned for 4 games for this season - yet even after video review, faced no punishment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBYpzicKdsU&fmt=18

Now I have no problem with players being punished both on and off the field for misconduct - but be consistent about it - don't be disproportionate and wily-nily. This is what makes if very difficult for fans to respect both the higher-ups and referees.

And this goes for Utd as well - for anyone that think I citing Ferdinand in bias - just be fair to everyone is all yes.

steven gerrard could kill de pope and he would get away with it.

[WestCoast]

steven gerrard could kill de pope and he would get away with it.

and where can one hire this Gerrard fella to do this dastardly deed to "der Teufel"

[Mango Chow!]

steven gerrard could kill de pope and he would get away with it.

and where can one hire this Gerrard fella to do this dastardly deed to "der Teufel"

  Yuh could probably send an email to his agents: info@thefa.com
or go to their website: http://www.thefa.com