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Author Topic: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions  (Read 911704 times)

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Offline g

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3390 on: September 11, 2011, 06:00:55 AM »
yea cuz scoring 13 goals at home vs Spurs and Arsenal and winning away to West Brom and Bolton, both which picked up wins vs good teams last season at home isnt anything near the form of City's oh so hard wins at home vs Swansea and Wigan

Not to mention the fact we recently beat City 3-2

They are looking good, we are looking better

You want to talk about what WBA and Bolton did last year??  Did United play last year's teams?  That piece of idiocy just underscores your irrationality when it comes to your club.  United barely beat a dreadful West Brom team that is yet to win a game. 

Allyuh best win was putting 3 on Spurs at home... City rest five on them in their own park

Allyuh destroyed Bolton at home... City traveled to the Reebok Stadium and beat them 2-1 on the road.  We dominated that same Bolton side three weeks ago and the 3-1 scoreline really flattered them... we easily should have sent them home 5-0 as United did... and even I would concede that we are nowhere as good as United is right now... so I'm hardly impressed by the scoreline... just as I wasn't when allyuh thrashed Arsenal.

Then there's a matter of midfield and defense... simply put City's play in both regards has been much... MUCH more dominant.  De Gea is a disaster waiting to happen and as well as the back four has played they are nowhere as solid as City's back line.  As for the 'recently beat City' talk... that is just foolish talk to think that counts for anything.  That city side allyuh beat over a month ago is night and day inferior to the current squad... Nasri and Aguero have completely transformed that attack and Dzeko has been a beast.  As I said, allyuh letting two lop-sided scorelines against woeful teams deceive allyuh... but keep sleeping on City at yuh peril, I guarantee you they taking at least one from United, two if the refs doh screw them at Old Trafford.

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Offline Fantastic

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3391 on: September 11, 2011, 10:16:36 AM »
Not much between Man U and Man city right now. I see Man U can definitely play at a faster pace while keeping possession of the ball which is creating quite a few more chances. Phil Jones is a great addition. I can see a lineup like this doing damage at some point this season.

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Offline kicker

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3392 on: September 11, 2011, 10:31:21 AM »
Man U is out the blocks the quickest this season.  It's a long season, but as of now Man U is the most impressive.

Don't let the goal count fool you... nothing against United, but City has been far more impressive.

Well which of the two teams has been more impressive so far is clearly a matter of opinion, but I think "FAR more impressive", as you put it is an exaggeration.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3393 on: September 11, 2011, 12:04:58 PM »

Well which of the two teams has been more impressive so far is clearly a matter of opinion, but I think "FAR more impressive", as you put it is an exaggeration.

Hardly a matter of opinion, it is legitimately a question of fact, fact which can be verified by looking at the contributions by a wider range of players across the board at City.  Quantifiable by looking at the goalkeeping and defensive play of both teams.  Quantifiable by examining the quality of the opponents they have played, and quality of wins on the road.

Even if you insist that it's a matter of opinion, I think I've laid out a pretty convincing case (supported by sound reasoning) as to why City has "FAR more impressive"... they're doing everything United is doing on offense except they're getting contributions from more players... plus they've been better in the middle, across the back and in goal.  It's about more than just the attacking third.

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3394 on: September 11, 2011, 03:20:32 PM »
Not much between Man U and Man city right now. I see Man U can definitely play at a faster pace while keeping possession of the ball which is creating quite a few more chances. Phil Jones is a great addition. I can see a lineup like this doing damage at some point this season.

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                                                  Hernandez

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Offline kicker

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3395 on: September 11, 2011, 06:23:45 PM »
Hardly a matter of opinion, it is legitimately a question of fact, fact which can be verified by looking at the contributions by a wider range of players across the board at City.  Quantifiable by looking at the goalkeeping and defensive play of both teams.  Quantifiable by examining the quality of the opponents they have played, and quality of wins on the road.

Even if you insist that it's a matter of opinion, I think I've laid out a pretty convincing case (supported by sound reasoning) as to why City has "FAR more impressive"... they're doing everything United is doing on offense except they're getting contributions from more players... plus they've been better in the middle, across the back and in goal.  It's about more than just the attacking third.

Your opinion might be based on a collection of facts....still an opinion.

If these teams are in this kind of form when they meet, it'll be a nice match up. 
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Offline davidephraim

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3396 on: September 11, 2011, 06:37:49 PM »
Nothing personal but I don't think Man city is looking as good as Man utd. They don't have the knock, they don't hav e the joy, they don't have the youth and euphony that manutd is exhibiting and Manutd are doing it with pretty much unknown guys. To have wellbeck, chicharito, Rooney, nani, Young firing on all pistons... dem running yuh into the ground sah. Pure youth power. I waiting for the Manu - Barca quite frankly because dem Machester derby is manutd own.
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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3397 on: September 11, 2011, 07:26:42 PM »
Man Utd is very impressive right now, but I think you all missing Bakes idea. I think I understand what he getting at.

Last week Dzeko run de place red and this week Aguerro destroy de place. Now this is not just in attacking personnel, but straight across de team.  In the forward line Man Utd have some power, but in the midfield area they drop of quite a bit. Even Chelsea can survive a couple of injury in the middle and not lose to much of quality. However, Man Utd not so much (Giggs can only play so much).

So What I believe Bakes saying is that Man Utd kill off some teams but mainly you know what's coming at you, but Man City kill off some teams and they have done it with starting 11 and reserves and kept their quality. This augurs well for their European goals and their domestic mission.
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Offline JDB

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3398 on: September 11, 2011, 09:34:13 PM »
I think both teams are playing similar football at a very high level. Trying to say that one has been head and shoulders over the other when they have both had four easy wins doesn't wash especially when they beat two common opponents in similar fashion. Yes City win at Spurs but that Spurs midfield was a sieve, worse than the one that United faced days earlier. Conversely City, for all their better defending gave up two goals to the aforementioned piss poor Bolton. I also don't see how you can dismiss performances against a weak Arsenal/West Brom combination and then use Wigan and Swansea to tout City. Again my point is there is nothing in the opposition to say that City had a harder ride and the results are the same.

I still pick City as favorites for a couple reasons.

The first is Silva and Aguero. Both teams have been killing teams with good interplay among the front 4. Left sided players running through the center , on the right and up front. But if you compare the two Silva is running it much more than Young or Nani and he is more experienced. A lot of Young's game is pace and using open space and Nani has all the skill but is still learning.

Aguero for me is the biggest buy. Has the potential to do what Ronaldo and Henry did when they were in the league I.e. Win games singlehandedly over and over again. Rooney is playing the role that Aguero does but he has much more to do. Just like 2 years ago, for all his physical skills, it hard to see Rooney doing this all season. I think it will be interesting to see both of these teams play without these two players to make a better judgement of the teams' play.

I think the rest of the sides are even except that City's 1st choice midfield two Toure and De Jong are a better defensive shield than Anderson and Cleverley. Conversely the latter pair gives you more going forward. History says that a pair like Toure and De Jong wins you the big games but we will see.

I disagree that United have had had fewer contributors than City. I think United has just rotated their team less so far, nobody doubts that Park, valencia, Giggs, Carrick and Fletcher will perform. In fact even with very short minutes Giggs, Park and Carrick have all scored or assisted and that is addition to Anderson and Cleverley who, as a pair, have been in most of the goals.

As far as depth City is deeper up front. Chicarito and Dzeko is a wash, "just" goalscorers but City backup is Tevez and United's is Welbeck advantage City.

In defence I'll take Jones, Smalling, Evans and Fabio as backups over Zabaleta, Lescott, Savic and Kolarov.

In midfield both sides have similar quality backups but United has more bodies to come off the bench. City has Johnson, Barry and Milner as serious bench options but United still has Giggs, Park, Valencia, Carrick and Fletcher.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 09:59:09 PM by JDB »
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Offline JDB

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3399 on: September 11, 2011, 09:41:32 PM »
For all the United City talk people sleeping on Chelsea. Despite their "bad start" they right in the mix and with Mata, Sturridge, Meireles and Lukaku they have the players to transform their play and make them much better. Getting the results they have with a new manager, investment in young players and that millstone they call Torres might be the most impressive performance of them all.

Once cold weather hit all these big scores will die down and Chelsea will be in the mix just like the Manchester clubs. All three will drop points here and there and it will come down to the key head to head match ups and match ups against the other big sides.

Can't see anybody outside those three contending seriously though.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3400 on: September 12, 2011, 12:05:51 AM »
Man Utd is very impressive right now, but I think you all missing Bakes idea. I think I understand what he getting at.

Last week Dzeko run de place red and this week Aguerro destroy de place. Now this is not just in attacking personnel, but straight across de team.  In the forward line Man Utd have some power, but in the midfield area they drop of quite a bit. Even Chelsea can survive a couple of injury in the middle and not lose to much of quality. However, Man Utd not so much (Giggs can only play so much).

So What I believe Bakes saying is that Man Utd kill off some teams but mainly you know what's coming at you, but Man City kill off some teams and they have done it with starting 11 and reserves and kept their quality. This augurs well for their European goals and their domestic mission.

Pretty much... and then when you factor in their defensive play, statistically the teams are neck and neck in terms of goals allowed etc. But anybody here really think that the Man U back four of Ferdinand, Vidic, Jones and Evra has played better than Richards, Kompany, Lescott and Clichy?  Anybody in ManU middle played better than Silva, Toure, Nasri?  Need we even compare Hart and De Gea?  Top to bottom City has been the more impressive side.  But as Kicker say, never mind the facts, that is still just an opinion.

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Quote
I also don't see how you can dismiss performances against a weak Arsenal/West Brom combination and then use Wigan and Swansea to tout City.

I don't remember anybody using Wigan and Swansea to tout anybody, read again.  Small Mag is the one who was "touting" WBA and Bolton teams from last year to try and make the case for how good United is this year.  I only discuss Arsenal and Bolton b/c United padded their offensive stats against them.  Other than that I discussed the relative performances against the common teams and discussed the fact that the away games played by City were more impressive than the home wins against common opponents by virtue of United playing at Old Trafford where they have a decisive advantage... without even talking about officiating etc.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 12:12:38 AM by Bakes »

Offline JDB

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3401 on: September 12, 2011, 06:58:37 AM »
I don't remember anybody using Wigan and Swansea to tout anybody, read again.  Small Mag is the one who was "touting" WBA and Bolton teams from last year to try and make the case for how good United is this year.  I only discuss Arsenal and Bolton b/c United padded their offensive stats against them.  Other than that I discussed the relative performances against the common teams and discussed the fact that the away games played by City were more impressive than the home wins against common opponents by virtue of United playing at Old Trafford where they have a decisive advantage... without even talking about officiating etc.

My point is both teams have played four poor sides. Until they play each other or more teams it is very difficult to say that one is far more impressive than the other. Even if you look at all six teams as a collective they are all in the bottom half on similar points. I don't get into the goal difference at this point but it certainly doesn't prove that City has been better.

As for common opponents. You keep discounting United's win over Bolton as a home game when they travelled to Bolton just like City did. United won 5-0, while City won 3-2. Conversely City had the better result and performance against Spurs. I don't see how City doing better against Spurs makes the argument for City but United doing better against Bolton means nothing.



Pretty much... and then when you factor in their defensive play, statistically the teams are neck and neck in terms of goals allowed etc. But anybody here really think that the Man U back four of Ferdinand, Vidic, Jones and Evra has played better than Richards, Kompany, Lescott and Clichy?  Anybody in ManU middle played better than Silva, Toure, Nasri?  Need we even compare Hart and De Gea?  Top to bottom City has been the more impressive side.  But as Kicker say, never mind the facts, that is still just an opinion.

This is subjective not factual. Several people on here, and elsewhere, think that the United back four and middle have been better, others might not. You saying that City has been far better is just another opinion.
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Offline JDB

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3402 on: September 12, 2011, 07:35:11 AM »
Nice win, nice easy game for DeGea. I will take it! But we need tuh cut down on the scoring chances we giving sides; better sides will capitalize if we continue to give those chances. Carrick and his backwards and sideways passing is back! Cringeworthy!

An interesting observation and probably explains why Cleverly will be preferred to both Carrick and Fletcher as Cleverly i've noticed always shapes himself to play forward at all times which of course allows for a faster transitioning from defense to attack.

Both Manchester teams running some sublime stuff so far this season.


People need to get off Carrick’s back. Carrick has been invaluable in United’s runs to the CL final in the past couple years. His positional sense is impeccable. The only bad thing is that he plays so deep that he is less effective in games where teams sit back and defend deep, but in Europe and the big games like the 3 wins over Chelsea this year Carrick has been a boss.

He also gets too much blame for the few big games that he has made mistakes in that deep position that led directly to critical goals ( the 2nd leg against Bayern and the semi against City).

I give Ferguson credit for giving Andrson and Cleverely time to play together, but Carrick coming in can have a positive effect because Anderson is now THE advanced player of the two and not taking turns. Said it last year, Anderson is  a creative player, played as a number  10 at Porto and people in Brazil were surprised to see him playing def midfield in England. The change has made him more dynamic and now he is a solid all-round midfielder.

What he has been doing this season has been fantastic, playing deep pulling the strings yet still getting forward. The assist for Welbeck against Arsenal was a gem. Now playing in front of Carrick he could give more than Cleverley while the team might be more solid at the same time.

It is an interesting situation to be in when you lose a good player and have another good, but different player coming in. Like Hernandez replacing Welbeck, Welbeck works more around the pitch, but Hernandez is better in the box.
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Offline kicker

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3403 on: September 12, 2011, 07:49:33 AM »
Agree with JDB that Chelsea could be a sleeping giant with Mata and Miereles added to the line up - still think that City and United have more depth...and more dynamic talent.

David Silva's footballing brain is probably above anything in the EPL - always liked that player and hoped that Madrid would make a play for him like 2 seasons ago.  He was excellent last season and I think he'll be a bigger handful this season as Mancini seems to be giving him more freedom to drift inside and pull the strings both centrally and from out wide...With Dzeko, Nasri, Yaya, Tevez AND Kun...that firepower is really scary - The two question marks are over whether or not Mancini can bring the best out of them, because I find him to often be a conservative, defense minded manager...with dem kinda weapons, that will have to change.  The other big weakenss IMO is Lescott - that soldier doh belong on the same field as the rest of his teammates...

For Man U, Fergie looks to have learned from the Barca cutarses over the past 2-3 seasons...There is clearly a bigger emphasis on quick interchange/interplay from less traditional angles, in how they approach the goal...and they are pressing alot higher up the pitch too...Some of the stuff they did against Arsenal, and against Bolton was straight outta the Barca book regarding the angles and the interplay, and even the team defense.  In the past 3 seasons or so, Man U and Madrid (and now City) have been the deepest (not necessarily the best, but deepest) teams in Europe, and now Man U is even deeper.  As they go deeper into their roster, their central defending gets a lil suspect IMO -that's the only notable weakness I see... 

The question for both these teams is whether or not they get hot too early. 
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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3404 on: September 12, 2011, 09:26:14 AM »
Nice win, nice easy game for DeGea. I will take it! But we need tuh cut down on the scoring chances we giving sides; better sides will capitalize if we continue to give those chances. Carrick and his backwards and sideways passing is back! Cringeworthy!

An interesting observation and probably explains why Cleverly will be preferred to both Carrick and Fletcher as Cleverly i've noticed always shapes himself to play forward at all times which of course allows for a faster transitioning from defense to attack.

Both Manchester teams running some sublime stuff so far this season.


People need to get off Carrick’s back. Carrick has been invaluable in United’s runs to the CL final in the past couple years. His positional sense is impeccable. The only bad thing is that he plays so deep that he is less effective in games where teams sit back and defend deep, but in Europe and the big games like the 3 wins over Chelsea this year Carrick has been a boss.

He also gets too much blame for the few big games that he has made mistakes in that deep position that led directly to critical goals ( the 2nd leg against Bayern and the semi against City).

I give Ferguson credit for giving Andrson and Cleverely time to play together, but Carrick coming in can have a positive effect because Anderson is now THE advanced player of the two and not taking turns. Said it last year, Anderson is  a creative player, played as a number  10 at Porto and people in Brazil were surprised to see him playing def midfield in England. The change has made him more dynamic and now he is a solid all-round midfielder.

What he has been doing this season has been fantastic, playing deep pulling the strings yet still getting forward. The assist for Welbeck against Arsenal was a gem. Now playing in front of Carrick he could give more than Cleverley while the team might be more solid at the same time.

It is an interesting situation to be in when you lose a good player and have another good, but different player coming in. Like Hernandez replacing Welbeck, Welbeck works more around the pitch, but Hernandez is better in the box.

I agree Carrick was very effective during the matches you mention and he covers angles very well. My issue with him is at times he presents as timid with the ball which has interfers with the team moving forward when we have a chance to break. Carrick seemed to loss his confidence after the first final against Barca in 2009. His lack of aggressiveness with the ball and pass in my opinion kills plays and opportunities for plays. He is much different than when he first started playing for United; I doubt Fergies would have payed what he did if Carrick was playing with the ball the way he plays with the ball now.
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Offline palos

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3405 on: September 12, 2011, 09:43:41 AM »
With Dzeko, Nasri, Yaya, Tevez AND Kun...that firepower is really scary -
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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3406 on: September 12, 2011, 10:24:49 AM »
man talking bout Dzeko as firepower and not even mentioning Berbatov. Berbatov score 4 in a game too and all of a sudden Dzeko is a killa. Men quoting all kinda stats and talking bout Kompany and Lescott and dem when it come to big games. Go ahead and play down the big game experience of Rio, evra, vidic and wait and see these Man City boys when dey meet Barcelona, madrid,and bayern. All these props and they haven't done shit as yet. As soon as Man U start moving de ball faster in de pre-season cup, Man city get disorganized and give up plenty chances. One side know how to be winners and the other want to be winners. 
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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3407 on: September 12, 2011, 11:16:22 AM »
One side know how to be winners and the other want to be winners.

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3408 on: September 12, 2011, 01:46:27 PM »
I don't get into the goal difference at this point but it certainly doesn't prove that City has been better.

...and of course that was my argument, right?

As for common opponents. You keep discounting United's win over Bolton as a home game when they travelled to Bolton just like City did. United won 5-0, while City won 3-2. Conversely City had the better result and performance against Spurs. I don't see how City doing better against Spurs makes the argument for City but United doing better against Bolton means nothing.

You're right... both games versus Bolton was at the Reebok Stadium, I have no problem giving United the edge there in terms of performance.  City gets the edge for the away victory in my mind.

This is subjective not factual. Several people on here, and elsewhere, think that the United back four and middle have been better, others might not. You saying that City has been far better is just another opinion.

Anyone who argues that United's midfield has been as good as City's is nuts.. plain and simple.  And yes, that's an opinion.  Not opinion is that De Gea has been a lot worse than Hart... feel free to now argue whether he has been "a lot worse" from simply worse.  Goalkeeper play is part of the defense as far as I know and my argument all along has been that City has been better defensively.  At any rate, I don't care that much as to carry on the debate further.  As you said, until the teams play each other (or better common opponents) we won't have a better gauge.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 01:50:39 PM by Bakes »

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3409 on: September 12, 2011, 03:36:59 PM »
Who is better between United and City is actually being debated yes...who woulda thought that day would ever come?

I really didn't mean tuh spark off this debate when I loosely said that Man U is the most impressive (to me) this season so far...to be honest I wasn't even thinking about Man City  ;D.. I was more thinking of the traditional "big sides". Arsenal is sh*t,  Chelsea ain't fully striding yet, Liverpool still tryin' tuh figure themselves out, Inter lost to Palermo, Roma lost, no one cares about Juve anymore lol, Milan drew with Lazio, Barca dropped points over the weekend, no on cares about Valencia anymore haha, and Madrid didn't really roar past Getafe on Saturday either...And that is really as far as my head was reaching when I posted that...but ah glad Bakes brought up City, because they hot out the blocks fuh real.  Whether they more impressive than Man U is 6 of one half dozen of the other in my opinion...

The wrap up of the EPL review yesterday highlighted City's hot form at the moment, and in the same breath mentioned Man U matching them stride for stride with the old refrain "anything you can do, I can do better"...so regardless of who more impressive, by far or by a little bit, the media for one is already painting this as a well poised future derby clash between two teams who in their own right are red hot very early on the season...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 03:38:47 PM by kicker »
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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3410 on: September 12, 2011, 03:57:02 PM »
Have to agree Kicker... on everything for real.  I also didn't plan on no big debate either, just that for me City has been the most impressive team... by far  ;D  ManU's performances against Arsenal and Bolton were really eye-opening, says a lot about the kind of form they in right now.  Young has really fit in nicely, and Rooney implants outperforming de £30,000 he pay fuh it, lol

Of the traditional big four, yeah... Man U has been best of the lot... by far.  Chelsea looks as though they about to settle into form, and at risk of being biased I have to say that Meireles might be the chief cause of that... I think his passing and movement might be the spark to get Torres going again.  I see Mata more of an advanced player in the middle than Meireles so I see him adding more to the attack than Meireles, and with Sturridge seemingly rounding into form, suddenly they seem rich in attacking options.

Offline D.H.W

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3411 on: September 14, 2011, 12:48:59 PM »
Valencia starting against Benfica.
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Offline elan

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3412 on: September 14, 2011, 03:25:25 PM »
Wait daiz all  ???
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4</a>

Offline Small Magician aka Wazza

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3413 on: September 18, 2011, 08:43:39 AM »
Big Mag at the game today.. find him a ticket last week

meanwhile I watching it on sportsmax .. need to get back there, miss that place

he better not forget my kits haha

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3414 on: September 18, 2011, 08:51:39 AM »
no streams?
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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3416 on: September 18, 2011, 09:07:45 AM »
1 nil  :whip:
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Offline dinho

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3417 on: September 18, 2011, 09:09:35 AM »
I feel like i watching a stream with this jerky Sportsmax feed steups.
         

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Re: The Stretford End- Home of the Champions
« Reply #3418 on: September 18, 2011, 09:10:00 AM »
Them men on Tv just gloss over the fact that Smalling was offside...  ::)
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