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Offline Touches

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Seven Searching Questions
« on: August 09, 2005, 01:02:40 PM »
This post is one for the thinkers amongst us and those who like these debates.

For any of you who have read Sun Tzu's art of war, the outcome of a battle can usually be anticipated after answering the following questions. If we look at the next few World Cup games and put TT into this framework we may get an idea as to where we may stand or rather fall.

Now let us not forget that this battle we are dealing with lasts for 90min and the ball is round so on any given day surprises can happen.

Unto our lil debate..........

The Art of War is governed by five constant factors: Moral Law, Heaven, Earth, the Commander and Method and Discipline.

Moral Law causes people to be in constant accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.(Lets Call our Ruler Jack)

Heaven signifies night and day, cold and heat times and seasons.( we have 2 home games, 3 away remaining)

Earth comprises distances great and small, danger and security, open ground and narrow passes, the chance of life and death( Lets use this as travel time to game i.e 3 days, fan support, etc.)

The Commander
stands for the virtues of Wisdom, sincerity,benevolence courage and strictness( Leo Beenhaker)

Method and discipline, marshalling of the Army in proper subdivisions(fwd/mid/def),gradations of rank among officers(local/foreign based/starter/bench) maintenence of roads by which supplies reach the army and the control of military expenditure(fitness/injuries/match fees etc)

These five heads should be familiar to every general . He who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail.

Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise:

SEVEN SEARCHING QUESTIONS

1) Which of two soverigns is imbued with moral law?

2) Which of the two generals has most ability?

3) With whom lie the advantages derived from heaven and earth?

4) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced?

5) Which Army is the stronger?

6) On which side are officers and men most highly trained?

7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?

By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat.


Well forumites, lewwe take a good look at our team with regard to these 7 questions, Mr Tzu making plenty sense and right now things looking kinda grim....especially on the 17th.



A for apple, B for Bat, C for yuhself!

Offline PATRIOT

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Re: Seven Searching Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2005, 02:28:21 PM »

1) Which of two soverigns is imbued with moral law?

2) Which of the two generals has most ability?

3) With whom lie the advantages derived from heaven and earth?

4) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced?

5) Which Army is the stronger?

6) On which side are officers and men most highly trained?

7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?




lemme try ah thing :D

1) JACK- undisputed ruler of ALL things CONCACAF!

2) Leo - Based SOLELY on past track records... to date

3)  A split - USA,Mexico & Costa Rica but T&T over Panama & Guatemala

4) Waaaaay sah I honestly can't say T&T AT ALL!!!!

5) See answer to 3 above

6) See answer to 3 above

7) Hmmn I NOW see why yuh say things lookin' GRIM!

Based on the above, the LIKELY results are 1 victory, 1 draw and 3 losses... HOWEVER, there is tremendous room for hope, because WE RULE in  the answers to questions 1 and 2 so it therefore depends on how much sway those 2 have in the overall scheme of things. THAT, and the aforementioned 90 mins and round ball.

BTW T, our TD is also a student of Mr. Sun...so there IS a ray of light (hope). I think it WILL come down to the last game again.

Offline rocwell

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Re: Seven Searching Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2005, 03:03:43 PM »
My translation of the text is a bit different from yours, nevertheless:

Moral Law - "The Way"
I suppose this has to be Warner/TTFF (or even the ministry of sports)

If the leaders can be humane and just, sharing both the gains and the troubles of the people, then the troops will be loyal and identify with the interests of the leadership
Jia Lin (Tang Dynasty era commentator on "The Art of War")

Advantage USA

Weather
Don't go into another's territory at an unfavorable time
-Wang Xi (Sung Dynasty) quoting Fan Li (?)

The Northern Hemisphere is warm currently.
Advantage: none

Terrain
The terrain is to be assessed in terms of distance difficulty or ease of travel, dimension, and safety
Sun Tzu

It's not a straightforward comparison (as the game is played on a football field and not unknown mountainous terrain), but we can give this to the US as they're at home.

Advantage: USA

Leadership
Beenhakker has been at this longer, and at higher levels, than Arena (i.e. he's more experienced).  However Arena has had this position for around 7 years now, and regardless has been leading his "troops" longer than Beenhakker has.

Advantage: None

Discipline
Discipline means organization, chain of command, and logistics
The U.S. has their biggest strength in organization, chain of command and logistics.  T&T has made improvements here, but we're still behind them.

Advantage: USA

So on to the 7 questions:

1. Political Leadership/The Way/Moral Law
    U.S.

2. Leadership
    I don't think Beenhakker has had enough time, but he's in interviews given glimpses of his method. 
    Arena has had years and has been successful.  I'll call this even.

3. Climate & Terrain
    I'll settle and call this Home field advantage.   Advantage U.S.

4. Discipline/Organization
    U.S.

5. Army Strength
    U.S. 

6. Troop Strength
   U.S.  (They've been trained better their whole lives)

7. Rewards & Punishments
    Again Arena has been in charge longer, so this would default to him.  Had Beenhakker been in   
    charge longer one could make a fair comparison.

So I think Master Sun would say that the US will win.  But like touches said, the ball is round.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2005, 03:11:55 PM by rocwell »

Offline Touches

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Re: Seven Searching Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2005, 03:07:32 PM »
Nice one Patriot and Rocwell

but I was looking at General in a different light, I thought it was the player on the field i.e the Captain and his abilities, which is why in the constant factors above I mentioned Leo as the Commander. I could be wrong but that was my interpretation.

In that case we lose in that dept. there because our Current captain..."Half-slab" not inspiring the men on the field or leading by example. I don't know who the US captain is, but if Reyna.aka captain America returns he will most likely lead by example.

Thats why Marvin Andrews will make a better captain, yorke or Shaka, but lets just watch and see. ;D



« Last Edit: August 09, 2005, 03:10:06 PM by Touches »


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Offline FF

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Re: Seven Searching Questions
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2005, 03:09:19 PM »
I thinking along the exact same lines as rocwell... i echo his sentiments
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES

Offline rocwell

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Re: Seven Searching Questions
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2005, 03:26:28 PM »
but I was looking at General in a different light, I thought it was the player on the field i.e the Captain and his abilities, which is why in the constant factors above I mentioned Leo as the Commander. I could be wrong but that was my interpretation.

Interesting.  I equated 'general' with head coach beacuse they oversee the whole operation (tactics, selection etc).  Team captain, in my mind, has more to do with chain of command.

Offline dcs

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Re: Seven Searching Questions
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2005, 06:13:49 PM »

I expecting Yorke to take back the captaincy after half-slab deputized in his absence.

Offline AB.Trini

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Re: Seven Searching Questions
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2005, 09:26:30 AM »
 Like Yuh taking a course in philosophy? This is a very intriguing analogy and a challenging set of concepts to superimpose  to the current situation but I'll take a run at it:

"The Art of War is governed by five constant factors: Moral Law, Heaven, Earth, the Commander and Method and Discipline.

Moral Law" causes people to be in constant accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger. " this definition seems to suggest a blind obedience to whatever the law is; irrespective to their own lives. This creates an ethical delimenna for me; what if the ruler is wrong? will I still bilndly follow at the expense of my own life? It alos begs the question that one will follow any ruler, depsite his shortcommings just because  one has an obedience to the  precepts as outlined in the "MORAL LAW"


Heaven signifies night and day, cold and heat times and seasons. Then heaven must be a place for those with any inclination or it could be comforting or dicomforting for some. The question now is : Is Heaven literallly a paardise if it presents such dicthomous sides?

Earth comprises distances great and small, danger and security, open ground and narrow passes, the chance of life and death so therefore earth is the experience which we all take.

The Commander stands for the virtues of Wisdom, sincerity,benevolence courage and strictness
So the commnader are  the virtues by which our lives are governed; our consicence; our guide.


Method and discipline:
Seems to be our course of action



These five heads should be familiar to every general . He who knows them will be victorious; he who knows them not will fail.

Therefore, in your deliberations, when seeking to determine the military conditions, let them be made the basis of a comparison, in this wise:

SEVEN SEARCHING QUESTIONS

1) Which of two soverigns is imbued with moral law? (a conflicting question: this is like saying that the ruler IS the MORAL LAW; If the law exist as a separate entity form the soverign, then does the question imply that the soverign is the epitome of that said law. question what if the ruler is not in accordance with  the moral law? If we were to put this in the context of TNT , then the moral law seems to  suggest that the TTFF our football goverening body are the gatekeepers of our  football  Moral law and that it's sovergin leader will default to Mr. J. Warner

2) Which of the two generals has most ability? to enact that law, our coach becomes one of our generals; I am sure that L. Phillips somewhere in the background.

3) With whom lie the advantages derived from heaven and earth? this too me seems relative and is contingent on many variables; given the  relative situation in which we find ourselves, we are not at an advantage over anyone.

4) On which side is discipline most rigorously enforced? in the context of football, is not that we are lacking  discipline I believe is that we have laspes of discipline; This all begins with  the individual player's own sense of self discipline: How could man come and play  games of this magnitute and dey outta shape? yet when dey go back tuh club teams then they admitting tuh be not fit and they pledging an allegiance tuh  be in better shape fuh club.

5) Which Army is the stronger? Well more skilled more apt to  play within a system more cohesive as a team: not WE!!!! but why?

6) On which side are officers and men most highly trained? what constitutes highly trained?

7) In which army is there the greater constancy both in reward and punishment?

By means of these seven considerations I can forecast victory or defeat.

What I could then surmise from this activity is that  in large  success is dictated by many factors: beginning with the goverance the TTFF who is responssible for etting the direction and focs under which our team will follow.

Secondly, if our GENERAL' is not acting with or exercising the ability he has, how will we achieve success? How will we knw if his ability is producing the desired results?

Whose responsibility i sit to enforce discipline? What is our common definition of discipline? Some teams do have discipline but they are not always successful.

FROM WHEN COMETH OUR STRENGTH?

Offline maxg

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Re: Seven Searching Questions
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2005, 09:50:14 AM »
Well look bacanal now....Master AT ;D