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Offline zuluwarrior

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Time to revise the national anthem
« on: July 30, 2007, 08:05:03 PM »
I dont know if this was posted on the forum if it was please let me know and i would remove it .

By Dr. Winford James
September 25, 2005
Posted: September 27, 2005

Sorry, but our national anthem is a mess of errors, and nobody has pointed out and analysed those errors more than Denis Solomon, newspaper columnist and former UWI lecturer in French and Linguistics. Solomon identifies three grammatical errors in the anthem and even regards the whole of it as 'literary nonsense'. As we celebrate Republic Day, it might be useful to reflect on its deficiencies and agitate for a revision, if not a complete change. (To facilitate your reflection, I have reproduced the anthem below:

Forged from the love of liberty
In the fires of hope and prayer
With boundless faith in our destiny
We solemnly declare
Side by side we stand
Islands of the blue Caribbean Sea
THIS OUR NATIVE LAND
WE PLEDGE OUR LIVES TO THEE
HERE EVERY CREED AND RACE FIND AN EQUAL PLACE
AND MAY GOD BLESS OUR NATION
HERE EVERY CREED AND RACE FIND AN EQUAL PLACE
AND MAY GOD BLESS OUR NATION

The errors identified by Solomon are to be found in the last six lines, which I have capitalized. One error is the use of the demonstrative word 'this' in addressing the native land. We know that the latter is being addressed because of the presence of the addressee pronoun 'thee' in the next line. 'Thee' can only refer to native land in the context (though, incredibly, two mature students of mine recently told me that they thought it referred to God!).

To get a better sense of the wrongness of 'this' in relation to 'thee', consider the oddness of the following statement which has the same structure:

This, my lovely wife

I pledge my love to you

Another error is the use of 'and' to join what is obviously intended to be a statement of fact (HERE EVERY CREED AND RACE FIND AN EQUAL PLACE) and what is a 'may'-introduced wish (MAY GOD BLESS OUR NATION). English disallows the co-ordination of statements and wishes introduced by 'may'.

The third error is that 'find' is an error of subject-verb agreement if the statement it comes in is a statement and not a 'may'-introduced wish. You might think that 'find' agrees with the co-ordinated subject 'every creed and race', but what you don't know is that the key word in the subject is 'every', which singles out creeds and races and therefore treats them as (third person) singular. Which means that the verb must be 'finds'.

It makes sense to interpret the line with 'find' ('finds') as a statement if only because it seems to be part of a declaration. Among the things that we solemnly declare is that every creed and race finds an equal place. Another is that the two islands stand side by side geographically (which is a trivial declaration) and politically (which would be really something to shout about if it were true!). But can we declare that God may bless our nation? It seems that we can't. Which would mean that the clause 'may God bless our nation' is wrong and out of place  a fourth error.

In a meagre 12 lines, two of which are repeated, there are, depending on the type of analysis, three or four structural errors. Imagine that! And we have been blissfully singing those errors since 1962  forty-three years now! Isn't it time we stopped the disgrace?

To compound matters, the thing hardly seems to have any inspiring ideas. Yes, the statement that every creed and race finds an equal place can be taken as an ideal that we should strive towards. And the phrase 'forged from the love of liberty' speaks to the importance of freedom, which we could latch on to. But what else is there? Not 'boundless faith in our destiny' because we are not told, not even given the slightest hint, what that destiny might be. Yes, there are lines that reflect a certain religiosity ('in the fires of... prayer' and 'may God bless our nation') but they cannot be said to be inspiring in any personal or nation-building sense. There is no call to action. There are no noble or high principles to embrace. There is nothing to stir our passions. It's mostly trivia we are called upon to sing, and badly constructed trivia at that.

We should revise the whole thing or, better yet, throw it away lock, stock and barrel. But it is so much a part of our soul and psyche (and has such great music!) that I suspect that, emotionally, we wouldn't be easily able to bring ourselves to do it.



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Time to revise the national anthem
By Dr. Winford James
September 25, 2005
Posted: September 27, 2005

Sorry, but our national anthem is a mess of errors, and nobody has pointed out and analysed those errors more than Denis Solomon, newspaper columnist and former UWI lecturer in French and Linguistics. Solomon identifies three grammatical errors in the anthem and even regards the whole of it as 'literary nonsense'. As we celebrate Republic Day, it might be useful to reflect on its deficiencies and agitate for a revision, if not a complete change. (To facilitate your reflection, I have reproduced the anthem below:

Forged from the love of liberty
In the fires of hope and prayer
With boundless faith in our destiny
We solemnly declare
Side by side we stand
Islands of the blue Caribbean Sea
THIS OUR NATIVE LAND
WE PLEDGE OUR LIVES TO THEE
HERE EVERY CREED AND RACE FIND AN EQUAL PLACE
AND MAY GOD BLESS OUR NATION
HERE EVERY CREED AND RACE FIND AN EQUAL PLACE
AND MAY GOD BLESS OUR NATION

The errors identified by Solomon are to be found in the last six lines, which I have capitalized. One error is the use of the demonstrative word 'this' in addressing the native land. We know that the latter is being addressed because of the presence of the addressee pronoun 'thee' in the next line. 'Thee' can only refer to native land in the context (though, incredibly, two mature students of mine recently told me that they thought it referred to God!).

To get a better sense of the wrongness of 'this' in relation to 'thee', consider the oddness of the following statement which has the same structure:

This, my lovely wife

I pledge my love to you

Another error is the use of 'and' to join what is obviously intended to be a statement of fact (HERE EVERY CREED AND RACE FIND AN EQUAL PLACE) and what is a 'may'-introduced wish (MAY GOD BLESS OUR NATION). English disallows the co-ordination of statements and wishes introduced by 'may'.

The third error is that 'find' is an error of subject-verb agreement if the statement it comes in is a statement and not a 'may'-introduced wish. You might think that 'find' agrees with the co-ordinated subject 'every creed and race', but what you don't know is that the key word in the subject is 'every', which singles out creeds and races and therefore treats them as (third person) singular. Which means that the verb must be 'finds'.

It makes sense to interpret the line with 'find' ('finds') as a statement if only because it seems to be part of a declaration. Among the things that we solemnly declare is that every creed and race finds an equal place. Another is that the two islands stand side by side geographically (which is a trivial declaration) and politically (which would be really something to shout about if it were true!). But can we declare that God may bless our nation? It seems that we can't. Which would mean that the clause 'may God bless our nation' is wrong and out of place  a fourth error.

In a meagre 12 lines, two of which are repeated, there are, depending on the type of analysis, three or four structural errors. Imagine that! And we have been blissfully singing those errors since 1962  forty-three years now! Isn't it time we stopped the disgrace?

To compound matters, the thing hardly seems to have any inspiring ideas. Yes, the statement that every creed and race finds an equal place can be taken as an ideal that we should strive towards. And the phrase 'forged from the love of liberty' speaks to the importance of freedom, which we could latch on to. But what else is there? Not 'boundless faith in our destiny' because we are not told, not even given the slightest hint, what that destiny might be. Yes, there are lines that reflect a certain religiosity ('in the fires of... prayer' and 'may God bless our nation') but they cannot be said to be inspiring in any personal or nation-building sense. There is no call to action. There are no noble or high principles to embrace. There is nothing to stir our passions. It's mostly trivia we are called upon to sing, and badly constructed trivia at that.

We should revise the whole thing or, better yet, throw it away lock, stock and barrel. But it is so much a part of our soul and psyche (and has such great music!) that I suspect that, emotionally, we wouldn't be easily able to bring ourselves to do it.



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Offline Bitter

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2007, 08:35:38 PM »
well apart from you pasting it in twice. It's a rather pointless academic exercise. It's a song, there is such a thing as poetic license and It's short and sweet.

If he want to ponder mysteries, then he should figure out how Mac Fingal rhyme "jello" with "store" in Big Belly Man.
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Offline Grande

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2007, 10:18:06 PM »
Winford James like he was bored boy

T&T welcomes back...the King

Offline Quags

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2007, 10:27:08 PM »
Who s he if it was good enough for Eric williams it good enough for me steuppppssss .For emancipation  he saying it not proper English ,or is not good enough english  :rotfl:
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 10:34:51 PM by Quagmire »

Offline Dr. Rat

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2007, 06:17:40 AM »
This is one bamcee, illiterate, assrey thread.
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Offline grskywalker

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2007, 07:24:42 AM »
No No give him credit for the effort and analysis, I found it informative reading. Nothing will change though as Trini's would say we like it so.

What then should be the proper lyrics.

Yes, there are lines that reflect a certain religiosity ('in the fires of... prayer' and 'may God bless our nation') but they cannot be said to be inspiring in any personal or nation-building sense. There is no call to action. There are no noble or high principles to embrace. There is nothing to stir our passions. It's mostly trivia we are called upon to sing, and badly constructed trivia at that.

We should revise the whole thing or, better yet, throw it away lock, stock and barrel. But it is so much a part of our soul and psyche (and has such great music!) that I suspect that, emotionally, we wouldn't be easily able to bring ourselves to do it.


I am a little offended by this, ask anyone of the million Trini's who witnessed the playing of the National Anthem at the World Cup and ask them if they did not feel that a destiny and a dream was achieved, or that God gave us an opportunity to represent after so much heartache was experienced by all in years gone by. To hear the steelband play against England sent shivers down my spine, because of the symbolism of meeting the colonial masters on the field of play.

The Anthem will remain as is!

Offline Dr. Rat

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2007, 08:20:29 AM »
The effort these people put into starting a thread like this, they should use that time to go read to children or volunteer, or something.

We does just ups and feel is ok to talk or write about utter shit. 

The anthem is the dearest thing to any Trini's heart, why de fack we must revise it?
(modification)

Mr. James should talk to Chalkdust and get his reaction.
 :beermug:
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 08:39:43 AM by Dr. Rat »
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Offline pecan

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2007, 08:24:13 AM »
I glad Zulu post it ..

At least I have some insight into the opinions of a learned man.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline cocoapanyol

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2007, 09:17:02 AM »
The effort these people put into starting a thread like this, they should use that time to go read to children or volunteer, or something.

We does just ups and feel is ok to talk or write about utter shit. 

The anthem is the dearest thing to any Trini's heart, why de fack we must revise it?
(modification)

Mr. James should talk to Chalkdust and get his reaction.
 :beermug:

but Mr. Rat...isn't this de DISCUSSION forum?  I mehself like de anthem jes so. I appreciate de read.  De man make plenty sense from ah English grammar point of view which is not tuh say dat I agree it should change because ah dat.

If de music we does listen to every day had tuh be grammatical correct in order fuh it tub he acceptable, den we might be only listening tuh 2 choones on de radio over an over.

Further, if de man suggest it should be revised doh mean it WILL be revised!!  Is jes he opinion.
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2007, 12:27:43 PM »
Whaiz de horrors wid de post? I agree with cocoaP and others who are accepting of the discussion.

Yeah it is an introduction to some unfamiliar/arcane material but any reader could come away with reasonable conclusions because the larger issue is not about grammar per se but about our national patrimony.

Here are mine:

1. I believe the good doc and Denis Solomon are attempting to set the record straight and (if nothing else) document their observations for future generations because their training compels them so to do. Academics all over the planet do this stuff about matters more arcane than a national anthem which - arguably - is a front and center thing ... thereby they preserve the record for the next linguistic genius amongst us to blaze the trail ... Nutten wrong wid dat .... daiz dem ting done to inform us ... I cool with that. Fairly noble.

2. I am certain the good doc/PhD is aware of creative license. I believe his contention is that, UNLIKE a road march or other popular rendition, the national anthem should be sanctified with uncompromised syntax. Linguistic integrity ... again fairly noble.

3. There is an implied and expressed concern regarding how others (not Trinbagonians) would perceive the anthem under scrutiny. Thing is most folks are simply respectful of the anthems of others but don't pay any particular attention to the content ... I for one tend to hold the view that most anthems are thematically similar ... (love/loyalty to nation etc...) and beyond that I pay them no attention ... So IMV while there is this concern about how we are perceived to be 'taking care' of one of our national treasures, I am not entirely swayed by the perception concern.

4.  At the end of the day the most important thing should be interpretation and I think we are all  happy with our interpretation of it as it is. The doc laments the lack of 'inspiring ideas' but I have always found the creed and race sentiment satisfactorily 'feel good' and the neutral 'God' appropriate for a cosmopolitan society ... atheists may take issue with that, but daiz another discussion.

5. I eh have no problems wid Pat Castagne ... these concerns should have been raised at the time there was the competition to see whose selection would become the national anthem ... maybe the powers that be lacked the foresight to have eminent linguists on it ... anyhow given that some nations have anthems lacking lyrics I eh have no problems with what we have.

(modified)

« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 12:52:26 PM by asylumseeker »

Offline real madness

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2007, 03:19:17 PM »
allyuh take it easy on zuluwarriors..de man just post ah article that he thought was interesting..it was ah decent read in my opinion..as for changing it...hell no..that could only lead to GOPIO bawling it eh have nutten about indian culture in it, jack warner saying it eh have nutten about thiefing and then some artiste wanting to put the anthem on ah wicked riddim..

Offline Dutty

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2007, 03:36:26 PM »
Look  to hell wit Pat Castagne


Let Bunji do de nat'l anthem remix
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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2007, 04:02:27 PM »
Here is Denis Solomon's original article as found on Trinicenter:

Our empty National Anthem
By Denis Solomon
February 21, 2005

Every so often (not "ever so often", as everybody in this country seems to say and write-the two expressions are exactly opposite in meaning) somebody re-discovers the ungrammaticality of the National Anthem, and writes a letter to the editor about it. The latest discoverer is a certain Mr. Melville Armour of Princes Town, who solemnly declares that the verb "find" should be singular.

What nobody realises up to today is that there are not one but three grammatical errors in the anthem.

Not many people realise that "find" is not necessarily an error. It may be seen as an optative: a form expressing a wish, like "save" in "God save the Queen" or "live" in "Long live So-and-so." So the line in question could be taken to mean "may every creed and race find an equal place".

The second error is the use of "and" immediately afterward: "Here every creed and race find an equal place / And may God bless our nation". If "find is optative, "and" is OK, because it conjoins two optatives. Otherwise it definitely is not. English cannot conjoin a declarative and an optative with "and". To say "Here every creed and race finds an equal place, and may God bless our nation" is the semantic equivalent of saying "Britain is an industrial country, and God save the Queen".

The third error is:

"This our native land, we pledge our lives to thee "

"This" is not vocative: you cannot use it to address someone or something.

The whole anthem, in fact, is literary nonsense.

"Forged from the love of liberty, in the fires of hope and prayer"

Stirring words, provided you don't try to understand them.

Just who was forged?

"With boundless faith in our destiny, we solemnly declare "

Perhaps "we" (the people) were the ones forged. But having been forged, what do we "declare"?

"Side by side we stand, islands of the blue Caribbean Sea "

A geographical platitude is hardly a declaration. But now it seems the two islands are the "we" who are "forged". But if so, how can they then talk of "our native land"?

"This our native land, we pledge our lives to thee..."

We are back at something that has life and can pledge it, so the "we" looks once more as if it meant the people. This is also more of a solemn declaration than the previous line (in spite of coming a bit late in the day). It is reasonable to assume that the remainder of the anthem is also part of the declaration, so "find" is indeed a mistake. Which in turn makes "and" a mistake too.

Another reason that "find" is not meant as an optative is that the expression of a wish implies non-existence of the condition wished for. So "Here (may) every creed and race find an equal place" imnplies that they don't find an equal place now. Or that if in the future we should receive an influx of pygmies or Eskimos, they too will be painlessly integrated. 

So I think we may safely take both "find" and "and" to be errors, along with the irredeemable "this".

Three errors is really Guinness Book of Records stuff. Only my deep-seated patriotism has so far prevented me from proposing T&T to that publication as the country with the largest number of grammatical errors in its national anthem.

It was not to be expected that a country with our history would have a Rouget de Lisle or a Francis Scott Key on tap to compose an anthem that was poetic instead of pseudo-poetic, made sense in itself, and was inspired by a heroic event in our history.

Nobody, as far as I know, took the Water Riots, the 1837 Daaga Revolt, the 1805 Chaguaramas slave uprising or the 1937 riots in the oil belt as a subject for a poem that might have been set to music for a more authentic anthem. It was left to poor Pat Castagne to adapt a Welsh melody (nothing wrong with that) and fit it out with the meaningless lyrics he had composed as an anthem for the West Indies Federation (luckily this country is two islands, so the "islands of the Blue Caribbean Sea" line didn't have to be altered).

Castagne could have put in a hint or two of our history and character instead of the pseudo-pious crap about fires of hope and prayer and invocation of divine blessing. Even a passing reference to indenture or the Middle Passage would have given the anthem a bit of authenticity. But the people I really blame are the members of the national committee that approved the anthem along with the other national symbols. It was supposedly representative of the country's artistic and cultural establishment: couldn't it have mustered the tiniest bit of literary taste?

Evidently not: if I have convinced you that the words of the anthem are embarrassing, take a look at the official description of the meaning of the Trinidad and Tobago flag. Now there is something to make your blood run cold.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Talk yuh talk.

Buh Mr. Solo ... yuh ent make out that the following is also gramatically incorrect:

Quote
Three errors is really Guinness Book of Records stuff



« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 04:05:20 PM by asylumseeker »

Offline Bitter

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2007, 04:54:38 PM »
From Wikipedia (not my preferred source)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_anthem

A national anthem is a generally patriotic musical composition that is evoking and eulogizing the history, traditions and struggles of its people, recognized either by a nation's government as the official national song, or by convention through use by the people.

Anthems rose to prominence in Europe during the nineteenth century; the oldest national anthem is "Het Wilhelmus", the Dutch national anthem, written between 1568 and 1572 during the Eighty Years' War. It should be noted that the Japanese national anthem has older lyrics, but the melody wasn't added until the early 20th century, making it a poem, and not an anthem, for most of its existence.

God Save the Queen/King, the national anthem of the United Kingdom, was first performed in 1745 under the title "God Save the King". Spain's national anthem, the "Marcha Real" (The Royal March), dates from 1770. La Marseillaise, the French anthem, was written in 1792 and adopted in 1795.

During the rise of the national state in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, most remaining nations adopted an anthem upon attaining nationhood. Because of European colonial influence, many were influenced in a similar way to adopt a national anthem, and thus several anthems outside Europe are in the European style. Only a handful of non-European countries have anthems rooted in indigenous traditions, including China, Japan, Costa Rica, Iran, Sri Lanka, and Myanmar.

An anthem can become a country's national anthem by a provision in the country's constitution (such as in France), by a law enacted by its legislature (as in the United States), or simply by tradition (as is the case in the United Kingdom).

The majority of national anthems are either marches or hymns in style. The countries of Latin America tend towards more operatic pieces, while a handful of countries use a simple fanfare. Anthems by their nature have to be brief (the average is about one minute in length), yet many, if not most, manage to make them musically significant, and a true representation of the nation's musical character.

National anthems are usually either in the most common language or languages of the country, whether de facto or official. Pakistan's anthem, however, is not in Urdu but in Persian. India's anthem is a highly Sanskritized version of Bengali. South Africa's national anthem is unique in that five of the eleven official languages are used in the same anthem (each language comprising a stanza).

Lyrics


Few anthems have been praised for having lyrics of any great poetic merit. India and Bangladesh adopted two songs written by the Nobel prize winner and noted poet/author Rabindranath Tagore as their national anthems, Jana Gana Mana and Amar Shonar Bangla, respectively (India has declared Vande Mataram, the song of its freedom struggle, as its National Song). Nobel prize winner Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson wrote the lyrics for the Norwegian national anthem. Singapore's anthem was chosen during an inter-citizen competition in the 1950s.

Some national anthems have no official lyrics at all, including Bosnia and Herzegovina, Spain, and San Marino. (The European anthem also lacks official lyrics, but several unofficial lyrics have been written; the lyrics of Ode to Joy have also been unofficially used.)
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Offline Bitter

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2007, 04:57:33 PM »
and just to show that we're not alone:

"You Let A LAWYER Write the National Anthem?"
by Frances Whitney
http://www.crummy.com/jabberwocky/articles/star_spangled_banner.html

Question: How can you tell the difference between a lawyer and a coyote smashed on the road?

Answer: The coyote has skid marks behind it.

    Dissatisfaction with "The Star-Spangled Banner" has been growing since it replaced "My Country 'Tis of Thee" as the national anthem in 1931. The eminent columnist Ann Landers admits, "I am among those who would prefer "America The Beautiful." People have objected not only to the verse, but also to the music, which is written in the high and screechy key of G major, and which is based upon a rollicking military arrangement of a sixteenth-century English ode to the god of wine. Others dislike the convoluted syntax of the lyric and the apparently blatant Anglophobia of the polemic. Be that as it may, the truth about our national anthem's shortcomings is even worse: "The Star Spangled Banner" was written by a lawyer.

    Members of the world's second-oldest profession have long known how to twist language so as to say one thing while meaning another, to state with apparent clarity that which cannot possibly be understood, and to use a maximum number of words to say nothing at all. By 1812, this ability for verbal manipulation had been reinforced by the conventions of nineteenth-century literary style, and legal usage was in full florid flower. Accordingly, it is with a sly wink to the reader that Raymond Kendall inserts the information that Francis Scott Key was a lawyer into his article on the birth of our nation's musical ambassador.

    As the skunk always smells himself first, lawyers themselves acknowledge the moral limitations of the breed. "The reason they're saying all those terrible things [about lawyers] is because they're true," said State Bar of California official Robert Fellmeth. In a society such as ours, in which such an admission is the only believable thing a lawyer can say, it is no wonder the ordinary man in the street entertains suspicious that the national anthem does not really hold true to its apparent meaning. An inquiry into the lyric, using the Oxford English Dictionary, soon confirms the worst.

    The very first word of the first verse, "Oh", is defined as "an exclamation expressing emotion of various kinds... especially as a cry of pain or terror, or in expression of shame, derisive astonishment, or disapprobation." While the citizen reels in shock at the implications herein, let us pass to the second word, "say." The first definition given is that of a tightly woven serge cloth--in other words, the very wool of which the original Star-Spangled Banner, now hanging in moth-eaten splendor in the National Museum of American History, is fashioned.

    Did Key intend those first words as an apostrophe--addressing his sudden disapproving cry of "Oh!" to the flag itself? Only a lawyer would be able to argue with certainty. Can the flag see? No, of course not. It has already been established that the song was written in G, and while many popular arrangements are in B flat or E flat major, the"Star Spangled Banner" is never, never C. Of course, for the right fee, a lawyer would try to make it appear to be so; thus the apostrophe.

    If we believe that the opening words, "Oh, say," are not addressed to the audience but intended as apostrophe to the flag, the vantage point of the entire poem shifts. What does the flag see from its roost above Fort McHenry? The next lines provide some clues.

    The dictionary gives the definition of "by" as "a form of swearing or adjuration". This presents a difficulty. We know that lawyers are acquainted with adjudication, not adjuration, even though during the period when Key practiced, witnesses (but not lawyers) were sworn on a Bible. Did a nineteenth-century lawyer embrace paganism enough to swear by "the dawn's early light"? History is silent on the subject.

    Another difficulty is presented by the alternate definition, "position in space, close to, near, beside". The phrase, "can you see by the dawn's early light" fixes the location of the antecedent of "what so proudly we hailed" as in the east, next to the rising sun. Key couldn't, therefore, thave been looking in the direction of the flag over Fort McHenry--a man on a boat in Baltimore Harbor gazing at the port would have to have been looking west. What, then, does Key seek in the lightening east--arriving British reinforcements?

    The activity "to hail" which Oxford gives as "to drink to" has alwasy been a popular human pastime. This may explain the choice of melody for Key's lyric. We may also conclude that if Key had been hailing since "the twilight's last gleaming" there is a possibility his sense of direction, not to mention propriety, would be quite confused "by the dawn's early light." Whether he was seeing flags flapping in the eastern sky or whether he tried to swim the streets of Baltimore upon disembarkation has not been recorded. However, if, as Oxford suggests, the "hail" is "a shout or call to attract attention" we may be sure Key would not have minded making a spectacle of himself in such a condition. Lawyers love the limelight.

    "Whose broad stripes and bright stars." Whose indeed" If the traitorous Key, as suggested above, were gazing east as indicated by the text, perhaps the broad strips he sought were those of the Union Jack. But what of the stars? Oxford gives twenty-three definitions of the nominal form, nine of the verbal, plus two obscure usages having to do with dermatological abnormalities and tumors in horses. It is a word to delight a lawyer's heart! Which shall it be? The obvious definition is too easy, too common. Besides, it is nearly daylight. Later references in the poem indicate Key could have intended definition number seven: "Pyrotechny. A small piece of combustible composition, used in rockets, mines, etc., which as seen burning high in the air resembles a star." The text makes in apparent that these fireworks would indeed have been visible to the piece of "say" whch Key interrogates in the first stanza. Another explanation, which would not necessarily preclude the foregoing, might be the mere "trivial expression of astonishment...'my stars and garters!'" as the freshening morning breeze brings to the barrister the realization that his wife has been awaiting his homeward footstep in vain as he experimented with "proof through the night", and she is really going to make him "see stars."

    The fight would then be considered perilous, indeed.

    Oxford gives only one meaning to the word "ramparts", a rather long one having to do with earthworks and stone fortifications. We thus must turn to an evaluation of the syntax to sort out Key's meaning. The sentence says that "we" watched "o'er the ramparts." Now wait a minute. Key's previous testimony states that he was on a boat during the battle--he therefore could not have been peering over the earthworks. On the other hand, the reader is cautioned not to confuse the persona of a poem with that of the author himself. Perhaps the persona is identifying with the occupants of the fort, including the "say" as they watched the Union Jacks and explosives "gallantly streaming" over the ramparts. The world knows the Redcoats were better-dressed than the Americans and more "suited to fashionable society" as Oxford says a gallant must be.

    At this point the composer borrows from the Baroque tradition and makes the architecture of the music fit the meaning of the lyric. Notes shoot skyward like rockets, glaring strep-throat red, and the audience trembles at the possibility that the sopranos, like the bombs, will burst in the air. Key, as an attorney, knew his evidence stood on shaky ground and had to turn to the use of experts from other fields of endeavor for "proof." The composer therefore tries with musical pyrotechnics to reinforce the argument that flashing lights and explosions constitute hard legal fact. While this is undoubtedly not the first instance in history when a politician has substituted bombast for substance, it stands near the pinnacle of the genre.

    The next line opens again with the apostrophe, "Oh, say." As a poet seeking immortality--many lawyers are frustrated English majors--Key knew that he had to come up with a really snappy wrap up. Keats is remembered, after all, for addressing a Grecian urn. A man could be committed for conversing with a piece of woolen serge. The poet asks two Socratic questions:

   1. Does that Star Spangled Banner yet wave?
   2. O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

    Not until about 1968 were these two concepts again the subject of intellectual inquiry. The questions still remain within the venue of legal rhetoric because of the grandiose lexicon: STAR, with its seven dictionary pages of august definitions, SPANGLED, in queenly adornment, BANNER and its implications of crusades and knights errant, and WAVE, with its connotations of the powers of air and sea. The last phrase is an isocolon, popular in oratory since earliest times and skillfully used here by Key to link land and home, free and brave. The drum roll commonly executed during the fermata of the last note emphasizes the word BRAVE, indicating on the surface that if people are BRAVE they may be also FREE, and the LAND may be their HOME.

    Buried in these last two phrases is the kernel of the nut. Those who have feared that the lyrics of our national anthem may offend our United Kingdom allies need trouble their minds no longer. We have established that Key was a lawyer interested in expediency, swilling high proof British gin through the night, physically facing in the wrong direction and ideologically drifting toward the wrong side. The verse contains not down-home democratic American vocabulary but upper-class royalist rhetoric, which makes the last line tantamount to an open invitation for His Majesty's troops to come on over and once again annex the land of the free to the empire upon which the sun never sets.

     The American nation has been saved only the the whim of opposing counsel, which, using the same research tools, gives an entirely different interpretation of the poem's language.

Frances Whitney
Copyright 1990
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Offline zuluwarrior

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2007, 06:02:01 PM »
GENERAL DISCUSSION :FEEL FREE TO  TALK ABOUT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING IN THIS BOARD .I am hoping that the

 memberz of the ENTERPRISE saw these words before they reply to this post, main words are FREE ,TALK, ANYTHING ,EVERYTHING , they did not say i should talk what the ENTERPRISE want me to talk about . As you can see this was printed in the T&T GAZETTE for the world to read ,you two rats have a problem with what is being said take it up with Dr Winford James he said it, they printed it, on the gazette not me .Allyuh could contac him on his homepage and vent allyuh feelings let us see how patriotic you two bam and cee iz.
You talk about bamcee , illiterate, assrey thread  i expected better than that from you well educated guys, you two men remind me of  Dr winford James dissing our national anthem, now i have some insight of the opinion of two very edukated men rat & pecan .  Rat you say Dr James should talk with chalkdust why dont you talk with Dr James since you have a problem with what he said and take yuh pardner with you.  
.
good things happening to good people: a good thing
good things happening to bad people: a bad thing
bad things happening to good people: a bad thing
bad things happening to bad people: a good thing

Offline pecan

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2007, 07:28:01 PM »
GENERAL DISCUSSION :FEEL FREE TO  TALK ABOUT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING IN THIS BOARD .I am hoping that the

 memberz of the ENTERPRISE saw these words before they reply to this post, main words are FREE ,TALK, ANYTHING ,EVERYTHING , they did not say i should talk what the ENTERPRISE want me to talk about . As you can see this was printed in the T&T GAZETTE for the world to read ,you two rats have a problem with what is being said take it up with Dr Winford James he said it, they printed it, on the gazette not me .Allyuh could contac him on his homepage and vent allyuh feelings let us see how patriotic you two bam and cee iz.
You talk about bamcee , illiterate, assrey thread  i expected better than that from you well educated guys, you two men remind me of  Dr winford James dissing our national anthem, now i have some insight of the opinion of two very edukated men rat & pecan .  Rat you say Dr James should talk with chalkdust why dont you talk with Dr James since you have a problem with what he said and take yuh pardner with you. 

aye

why yuh picking on me   ???

I was being serious and was actually supporting your decision to make dis post ...

dat is de problem when yuh try to keep yuh post short .. or try to be sarcastic ..non-sarcasm is mistaken for sarcasm (in this case) and sarcasm is not detected when it is intentional.

i was not making fun of you ..

in case i offended you, i am sorry.  .. peace

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline daryn

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2007, 08:05:10 PM »

Talk yuh talk.

Buh Mr. Solo ... yuh ent make out that the following is also gramatically incorrect:

Quote
Three errors is really Guinness Book of Records stuff



I eh so sure he's incorrect there.

consider the following sentences
a) Three errors is unacceptable.
b) Three errors are unacceptable.

both of these make sense, I think.  The first is saying that the fact that there are three errors is unacceptable.  In contrast, the second says that each of three errors is unacceptable.

it's the fact that there are three errors, not two or one, that makes it worthy of the Guinness Book.  The making of 3 errors is a single composite action that is noteworthy.

or I could be talking out the side of my neck.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2007, 08:25:27 PM »
This is one bamcee, illiterate, assrey thread.
Welcome, my friend...to the parallel universe that is Trinicenter.com

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2007, 08:29:30 PM »
Whaiz de horrors wid de post? I agree with cocoaP and others who are accepting of the discussion.

Yeah it is an introduction to some unfamiliar/arcane material but any reader could come away with reasonable conclusions because the larger issue is not about grammar per se but about our national patrimony.

Here are mine:

1. I believe the good doc and Denis Solomon are attempting to set the record straight and (if nothing else) document their observations for future generations because their training compels them so to do. Academics all over the planet do this stuff about matters more arcane than a national anthem which - arguably - is a front and center thing ... thereby they preserve the record for the next linguistic genius amongst us to blaze the trail ... Nutten wrong wid dat .... daiz dem ting done to inform us ... I cool with that. Fairly noble.

2. I am certain the good doc/PhD is aware of creative license. I believe his contention is that, UNLIKE a road march or other popular rendition, the national anthem should be sanctified with uncompromised syntax. Linguistic integrity ... again fairly noble.

3. There is an implied and expressed concern regarding how others (not Trinbagonians) would perceive the anthem under scrutiny. Thing is most folks are simply respectful of the anthems of others but don't pay any particular attention to the content ... I for one tend to hold the view that most anthems are thematically similar ... (love/loyalty to nation etc...) and beyond that I pay them no attention ... So IMV while there is this concern about how we are perceived to be 'taking care' of one of our national treasures, I am not entirely swayed by the perception concern.

4.  At the end of the day the most important thing should be interpretation and I think we are all  happy with our interpretation of it as it is. The doc laments the lack of 'inspiring ideas' but I have always found the creed and race sentiment satisfactorily 'feel good' and the neutral 'God' appropriate for a cosmopolitan society ... atheists may take issue with that, but daiz another discussion.

5. I eh have no problems wid Pat Castagne ... these concerns should have been raised at the time there was the competition to see whose selection would become the national anthem ... maybe the powers that be lacked the foresight to have eminent linguists on it ... anyhow given that some nations have anthems lacking lyrics I eh have no problems with what we have.

(modified)



Me eh have no fancy PhD in de queens engrish...but even with my lowly BA in Lit. Gramma and Composition...I can take Dr. whey-he-name's (note de proper use of de apostrophe) quibbles and turn dem on dey head.  Is tight-ass colonial vestiges like de good ole doc that we could do without.

Offline Organic

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2007, 08:31:11 PM »
de men in here does be pmsin more dat de women it seems :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2007, 08:32:14 PM »
GENERAL DISCUSSION :FEEL FREE TO  TALK ABOUT ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING IN THIS BOARD .I am hoping that the

 memberz of the ENTERPRISE saw these words before they reply to this post, main words are FREE ,TALK, ANYTHING ,EVERYTHING , they did not say i should talk what the ENTERPRISE want me to talk about . As you can see this was printed in the T&T GAZETTE for the world to read ,you two rats have a problem with what is being said take it up with Dr Winford James he said it, they printed it, on the gazette not me .Allyuh could contac him on his homepage and vent allyuh feelings let us see how patriotic you two bam and cee iz.
You talk about bamcee , illiterate, assrey thread  i expected better than that from you well educated guys, you two men remind me of  Dr winford James dissing our national anthem, now i have some insight of the opinion of two very edukated men rat & pecan .  Rat you say Dr James should talk with chalkdust why dont you talk with Dr James since you have a problem with what he said and take yuh pardner with you.  

I think you my boy, are the victim of a little bit of misplaced hostility, lol

Offline AB.Trini

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2007, 08:34:58 PM »
"A national anthem is a generally patriotic musical composition that is evoking and eulogizing the history, traditions and struggles of its people, recognized either by a nation's government as the official national song, or by convention through use by the people."
Wikipedia


With all due respect to Denis Solomon, the grammatical errors and the misleading modifiers, are not as pertinent to the layman as it maybe to the scholar who is literally examining the syntax for literal meaning.

I agree that ones national anthem is not to be taken lightly nor should it be reduced to a jump and Wave chant. A national anthem embodies and captures the essence of a nation's pride, honour, decree and epitomizes  an almost sacred hymn to those who affectionately rise to the calling of a nation. Thus is should be carefully worded and carefully convey the intended meaning given it's purpose and form

Without disputing Mr. Solomon points of contentions, I humbly believe that the anthem as is, thus convey its purpose to its intended audience without  confusing  or creating ambiguity to the intended audience.

If the errors as Mr. Solomon points out that  it may not be inspiring and that two of his mature students indicated the errors. What if  the notion of inspiring is subjective and what if his  so called mature students are wrong?

THIS OUR NATIVE LAND (demonstrative pronoun: takes the place of a noun, followed by the possessive pronour OUR points to NATIVE LAND)
WE PLEDGE OUR LIVES TO THEE ( We; pronoun begins the new clause stating that we pledge OUR lives to THEE : the question is who is thee?

Could the author be intending to use an abstract noun so that our love will be given the the LAND? Thus the two clause are interrelated.

The next clause and new thought is punctuated with the statement....
HERE (referring to the land) EVERY CREED AND RACE FIND AN EQUAL PLACE (Now comes the coordinating conjunction AND ..which introduces  the principal thought that is for GOD  to bless our nation. This remains quite distinct from any confusion as to whether we are pledging an allegiance to GOD or LAND. The author is emphatically calling upon GOD to bless our nation.
AND MAY GOD BLESS OUR NATION
HERE EVERY CREED AND RACE FIND AN EQUAL PLACE
AND MAY GOD BLESS OUR NATION


Mr. Solomon;s assertion that the first part is without  a clear destiny is somewhat absurdly stated:

Forged from the love of liberty (given the context of colonial rule and the  attainment of independence, it is clear as to the  underlying meaning behind this statement. Our nation was created from THE LOVE of LIBERTY!!!)
In the fires of hope and prayer ( with a fire of hope...hope possibly for a better future. Our hope is also not frivolous as it is sanctified with prays)
With boundless faith in our destiny ( Our boundless faith that  we ascribe to is our destiny...... to move forward from the shackles of colonial rule; subjugation to one with infinite possibilities thus the abstraction of  destiny; it is timeless and boundless; not confined to time nor to anything or anyone.
We solemnly declare ( it is a declaration or proclamation we made at that time and continue to......)
Side by side we stand (This clearly states and gives rise to the entities Trinidad& Tobago..... to be said in the same breath each time we speak of our nation!!!!)
Islands of the blue Caribbean Sea

I beg the question: is the anthem as is  fulfilling the following:

A patriotic musical composition? 

Does it evoke and eulogize the history, traditions and struggles of its people?

 Is it recognized either by a nation's government as the official national song, or by convention through use by the people?

Then respectfully, despite Mr. Solomon's claims, I could live and abide with the original wording of the author and for me  the meaning is not lost nor do I find it ambiguous so as to cause any humiliation. I personally find it inspiring and it does elicit great pride and patriotism when I hear it at national and international events. It's truly emblematic of one of our national icons and thus it should be accorded due reverence and stature.

My humble opinion
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 08:59:29 PM by AB.Trini »

Offline Quags

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2007, 08:45:40 PM »
All the Dr should know ,is in trini we use  to always say f**k The British oui .

I tink the anthem is awesome .
Forged from the love of liberty from  hoping and praying for hundred of years . in boundage

boi shot wicked .
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 09:06:02 PM by Quagmire »

Offline AB.Trini

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2007, 09:32:58 PM »
For a lighter response to the article, here is a suggestion. let's adopt David Rudder's "Trini to D Bone" as  a national anthem for all  TNT expatriates living abroad.



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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2007, 09:35:21 PM »
For a lighter response to the article, here is a suggestion. let's adopt David Rudder's "Trini to D Bone" as  a national anthem for all  TNT expatriates living abroad.



:-\
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Offline AB.Trini

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2007, 09:38:14 PM »
Here Solomon go analyze see if this fits the bill!!!! it is patriotic, eugolize the struggles and restores national pride!!!


Trini To The Bone -- David Rudder & Carl Jacobs

[intro]
Islands in the sun
Islands in the fun

[verse 1]
Welcome, welcome one and all to de land of fete
Trini to bone, trini to de bone
When it come to bacchanal, well they can't beat we yet
Trini to bone, trini to de bone
Look, sweet women parade abundantly
De brendren dey full ah energy
Some people say God is a Trini
Paradise and all convincing me
God gave us a spirit- firey
But nut’in in de world don’t bother we
But look a smart man gone wid we money
We still come out and mash up de party

[chorus]
(Sweet sweet T and T) Oh how I love up dis country
(Sweet sweet T and T) No place in dis world I'd rather be
(Sweet sweet T and T) Oh how I love up meh country
(Sweet sweet T and T) All dis sugar can't be good for me

[sub-chorus]
(Oh oh) From Toco to Caroni
(Oh oh) Maravel to Sans Souci
(Oh oh) From Scarborough to Coco Reef
(Oh oh) Profiling on Fredrick Street

[chorus]

[verse 2]
All these years I spent abroad in de cold, longing to be home
Trini to bone, trini to de bone
God I pray that some sweet day, I will no longer have to roam
Trini to bone, trini to de bone
De problems we have are plain to see
We prove we could stand de scrutiny
All and all, a true democracy
How we vote, is not how we party
There's no place like home some people say
Though some have to leave to make their way
But in their hearts I know their destiny
To come home and big up they country

[chorus]

[sub-chorus]
(Oh oh) From Couva to Signal Hill
(Oh oh) Arima to Charlotteville
(Oh oh) Matelot down to Port-A-Spain
(Oh oh) We playin' mas sun or rain

[chorus]


[bridge]
(rudder chant)
Look ah Trini gyal dey, she breaking away
Tobago gyal, oh what a bacchanal
De men gone wild, de wickedest style
De gyal look back, dey on de attack
De style just change, man re-arrange
De fete gone clear, cause nothing can compare to a Trini rising
Oh no no, nothing can compare to a Trini rising

[verse 3]
As crazy as we might seem to be
We still fight to be a family
Indian, African or a Chinee
Syrian, French-Creole and Portugese
We vex with a spirit fiery
Some people say God is a Trini
Sweet women parade abundantly
Now de problem is plain to see

[chorus]

[sub-chorus]
(Oh oh) West Mooring to Locirot
(Oh oh) From Sando to Mayaro
(Oh oh) From Penal to Grand Riviére
(Oh oh) Sweetness in abundance everywhere

[chorus]

[end]
No no no no
Nah nah nah nah nah nah nah
Sweet T and T

okok in true TNT style leh meh throw one dey for Solomon

Solomon Grundy,
Born on a Monday,
Christened on Tuesday,
Married on Wednesday,
Took ill on Thursday,
Grew worse on Friday,
Died on Saturday,
Buried on Sunday.
That was the end of
Solomon Grundy.




« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 10:06:50 PM by AB.Trini »

Offline Dutty

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2007, 09:43:08 PM »
[

aye

why yuh picking on me   ???

I was being serious and was actually supporting your decision to make dis post ...

dat is de problem when yuh try to keep yuh post short .. or try to be sarcastic ..non-sarcasm is mistaken for sarcasm (in this case) and sarcasm is not detected when it is intentional.

i was not making fun of you ..

in case i offended you, i am sorry.  .. peace


Quote

Boy you always in some kinda clash wit some body eh?

Yuh turn from loverboy to online gyangster.......ah go hadda buy some extra popcorn to see who you lockin horns with next oui
Little known fact: The online transportation medium called Uber was pioneered in Trinidad & Tobago in the 1960's. It was originally called pullin bull.

Offline Organic

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2007, 09:44:03 PM »
Here Solomon go analyze see if this fits the bill!!!! it is patriotic, eugolize the struggles and restores national pride!!!


Trini To The Bone -- David Rudder & Carl Jacobs

[intro]
Islands in the sun
Islands in the fun

[verse 1]
Welcome, welcome one and all to de land of fete
Trini to bone, trini to de bone
When it come to bacchanal, well they can't beat we yet
Trini to bone, trini to de bone
Look, sweet women parade abundantly
De brendren dey full ah energy
Some people say God is a Trini
Paradise and all convincing me
God gave us a spirit- firey
But nut’in in de world don’t bother we
But look a smart man gone wid we money
We still come out and mash up de party

[chorus]
(Sweet sweet T and T) Oh how I love up dis country
(Sweet sweet T and T) No place in dis world I'd rather be
(Sweet sweet T and T) Oh how I love up meh country
(Sweet sweet T and T) All dis sugar can't be good for me

[sub-chorus]
(Oh oh) From Toco to Caroni
(Oh oh) Maravel to Sans Souci
(Oh oh) From Scarborough to Coco Reef
(Oh oh) Profiling on Fredrick Street

[chorus]

[verse 2]
All these years I spent abroad in de cold, longing to be home
Trini to bone, trini to de bone
God I pray that some sweet day, I will no longer have to roam
Trini to bone, trini to de bone
De problems we have are plain to see
We prove we could stand de scrutiny
All and all, a true democracy
How we vote, is not how we party
There's no place like home some people say
Though some have to leave to make their way
But in their hearts I know their destiny
To come home and big up they country

[chorus]

[sub-chorus]
(Oh oh) From Couva to Signal Hill
(Oh oh) Arima to Charlotteville
(Oh oh) Matelot down to Port-A-Spain
(Oh oh) We playin' mas sun or rain

[chorus]


[bridge]
(rudder chant)
Look ah Trini gyal dey, she breaking away
Tobago gyal, oh what a bacchanal
De men gone wild, de wickedest style
De gyal look back, dey on de attack
De style just change, man re-arrange
De fete gone clear, cause nothing can compare to a Trini rising
Oh no no, nothing can compare to a Trini rising

[verse 3]
As crazy as we might seem to be
We still fight to be a family
Indian, African or a Chinee
Serian, French-Creole and Portugese
We vex with a spirit fiery
Some people say God is a Trini
Sweet women parade abundantly
Now de problem is plain to see

[chorus]

[sub-chorus]
(Oh oh) West Mooring to Locirot
(Oh oh) From Sando to Mayaro
(Oh oh) From Penal to Grand Riviére
(Oh oh) Sweetness in abundance everywhere

[chorus]

[end]
No no no no
Nah nah nah nah nah nah nah
Sweet T and T

okok in true TNT style leh meh throw one dey for Solomon

Solomon Grundy,
Born on a Monday,
Christened on Tuesday,
Married on Wednesday,
Took ill on Thursday,
Grew worse on Friday,
Died on Saturday,
Buried on Sunday.
That was the end of
Solomon Grundy.





if dais your anthem be prepared for some critisism because yuh misspled or misunderstood quite ah few place names in de man song.
either dat or is your own person remix

***EDIT.. and words..within de song so it really hadda be a remix
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 09:47:34 PM by Organic »
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline AB.Trini

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Re: Time to revise the national anthem
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2007, 09:51:33 PM »
I  copied it from a site just so and I saw  the errors but ah using that copy to make the point!!!! did the errors detract from the song's intent?

Make no difference to me but then again it's not a national anthem nor is it at the same reverence as the national anthem? Then again for some  it make evoke the same responses so should it be scrutinized for errors? ummmm......... maybe? maybe not????
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 10:28:06 PM by AB.Trini »

 

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