Sunderland vs Wigan

[Midknight]

Is amazing how differently people can interpret the same events.

Listening to the commentary, its clear that Sunderland was pretty much overun in the first half, and losing the midfield battle.

At the half, he decided to change two midfielders (Dwight and Stokes was playing midfield as opposed to striking) He brought on Collins, a defender for an attacking midfielder, and replaced Dwight for Miller, a (supposedly) more energetic midfielder.

I personally believe that the third sub was for Stern but the injury to McShane put paid to that.

Say what you want, Keane gambled by making both subs at halftime and he lost, on a pure hasard (the injury). That said, I don't blame him for subbing Dwight, he must've touched the ball 4 times in the half. That is hardly what one can expect of a midfield general.

All this shows is that Sunderland's squad is pretty thin. Their bench is generally weak. Any sure starter missing is a recipe for disaster. Without Edwards they lack spark in the middle, without Mcshane they lack steel in the back, and if Dwight and/or Etuhu have an off day, then can be overrun.

As for Keanes rhetoric, he's never been someone to hold his tongue, he won't start now.

[dwn]

I dunno...but I'm a little disappointed in Keane thus far.  He seems to have a penchant for speaking absent of forethought or due consideration...which only seem compounded in light of some of his coaching decisions. While I defer to his experience and expertise, it seems all of his decisions are being done in a reactionary manner...retroactive, rather than proactive.

i dont find you make much sense there.
the man made 'proactive' decisions and got them wrong.
and will hence use 'retroactive' decisions as he learns from his mistakes.
if you dissappointed in the mistakes he made thats one thing but hindsight is always 20/20.

[kicker]

First Wigan goal- clear offside

[dreamer]

Is amazing how differently people can interpret the same events.

Listening to the commentary, its clear that Sunderland was pretty much overun in the first half, and losing the midfield battle.

At the half, he decided to change two midfielders (Dwight and Stokes was playing midfield as opposed to striking) He brought on Collins, a defender for an attacking midfielder, and replaced Dwight for Miller, a (supposedly) more energetic midfielder.

I personally believe that the third sub was for Stern but the injury to McShane put paid to that.

Say what you want, Keane gambled by making both subs at halftime and he lost, on a pure hasard (the injury). That said, I don't blame him for subbing Dwight, he must've touched the ball 4 times in the half. That is hardly what one can expect of a midfield general.

All this shows is that Sunderland's squad is pretty thin. Their bench is generally weak. Any sure starter missing is a recipe for disaster. Without Edwards they lack spark in the middle, without Mcshane they lack steel in the back, and if Dwight and/or Etuhu have an off day, then can be overrun.

As for Keanes rhetoric, he's never been someone to hold his tongue, he won't start now.

Correc'.

[zuluwarrior]

WIGAN VS SUNDERLAND game playin right now on fsc

[Midknight]

First Wigan goal- clear offside

the bbc said so as well, but with all the penalty decisions they had turned down before the goal i guess no one really pick up on it. All that domination must end up with a goal, be it valid or not

[kicker]

I dunno...but I'm a little disappointed in Keane thus far.  He seems to have a penchant for speaking absent of forethought or due consideration...which only seem compounded in light of some of his coaching decisions. While I defer to his experience and expertise, it seems all of his decisions are being done in a reactionary manner...retroactive, rather than proactive.

i dont find you make much sense there.
the man made 'proactive' decisions and got them wrong.
and will hence use 'retroactive' decisions as he learns from his mistakes.
if you dissappointed in the mistakes he made thats one thing but hindsight is always 20/20.

Yeah other than admittedly erring in his decision to not sub Carlos before he eventually hurt himself, I'm not sure how to justify an allegation of Keane not being proactive...

I would also say that most coaches make many obvious reactionary decisions, or better yet, pre-game "proactive" tactics & strategy are often less noticeable than reactionary changes/adjustments to unforseen conditions...

Agree that Keane's mouth doesn't provide a cushion for sympathy in his times of adversity.

wrt the match (watching it delayed)- 36 mins into it, and I would say that Wigan is the better team-stronger & fitter for sure, but with a little better luck Sunderland would be even with them as Wigan's first goal was offside

questionable refereeing may have saved the black cats from conceding a penalty or two though...so I guess it all evens up.

[Bakes]

I dunno...but I'm a little disappointed in Keane thus far.  He seems to have a penchant for speaking absent of forethought or due consideration...which only seem compounded in light of some of his coaching decisions. While I defer to his experience and expertise, it seems all of his decisions are being done in a reactionary manner...retroactive, rather than proactive.

i dont find you make much sense there.
the man made 'proactive' decisions and got them wrong.
and will hence use 'retroactive' decisions as he learns from his mistakes.
if you dissappointed in the mistakes he made thats one thing but hindsight is always 20/20.

Maybe the smart thing to do would be to ask for elaboration rather than assume...I was deliberately terse in my statements because my comments were intended as pure passing observation rather than to provoke serious dialogue.  What I meant is that he's coaching against Wigan with Birmingham in mind; he coaches Birmingham with Derby in mind etc.  While you learn from the errors and move on, there seems to be more a focus on not replicating the mistakes of the previous games rather than altering his line up and strategizing for the upcoming game.

[kicker]

I dunno...but I'm a little disappointed in Keane thus far.  He seems to have a penchant for speaking absent of forethought or due consideration...which only seem compounded in light of some of his coaching decisions. While I defer to his experience and expertise, it seems all of his decisions are being done in a reactionary manner...retroactive, rather than proactive.

i dont find you make much sense there.
the man made 'proactive' decisions and got them wrong.
and will hence use 'retroactive' decisions as he learns from his mistakes.
if you dissappointed in the mistakes he made thats one thing but hindsight is always 20/20.

Maybe the smart thing to do would be to ask for elaboration rather than assume...I was deliberately terse in my statements because my comments were intended as pure passing observation rather than to provoke serious dialogue.  What I meant is that he's coaching against Wigan with Birmingham in mind; he coaches Birmingham with Derby (think you meant Spurs  ) in mind etc.  While you learn from the errors and move on, there seems to be more a focus on not replicating the mistakes of the previous games rather than altering his line up and strategizing for the upcoming game.

Fair enough, but without being more specific it's kinda harsh or even difficult to make such a bold assertion.....In other words, if you were in Keano's seat, what would you have done differently, or what in particular has he said to imply such?

I haven't paid exta close attention to his line-ups and how they've matched the opposition, in fact this is the first time I'm watching 90 mins Sunderland, so I reserve my comments. According to the announcers, Keane made 4 changes btw the first game and the second, and 4 btw the second and the third- how to determine or even estimate which of those changes were proactive or reactionary......your guess is as good as mine.

[kicker]

Have to say, Sunderland made some good running in the first 10-15 minutes of the second half and actually looked like they could push their way back into the game.....but 65 mins in and Sunderland looks woeful in almost every department.....

Nosworthy & Chopra are their two best players on the field- and that doesn't say much...

Kieran Richardson sellin' guns....

[g]

Watchin d game now and have some general observations.

On a whole the team lacking cohesiveness.. I guess this is the problem with newly promoted teams who try to bring in 8,9 players during the summer and have them playing all at once. Some of them not on the same page with each other, leads to broken up plays just when that extra piece of combination passing is required to breakdown the defense. That will improve with more games.

I eh find Yorke look too bad, he will always be class with the astute passing but the conditions were not his today to be adequate defensively i think he also is one who still not totally match fit and will need a couple more weeks to probably complete a full game. I think sunderland is a team that relies on the width to open up the middle. No carlos, no play down the right side at all. Richardson feel he is Ryan Giggs of yesteryear losses the ball 4 out of 5 times trying to beat 3 or 4 men, I wouldnt call him a rank shithound but sometimes he tries too much when he is on the ball not always in creative situations where a simple pass and move into space would serve him better. When he does the simple plays he looks better.

The back 4 eh ready yet, well either that or they playing 3 games in 10 days (not sure if all of them played), looked a bit off the pace with the marking, premiership strikers doh really need much room to punish yuh.

Other factors were the pitch which was very slick, men slipping and sliding all over d place and the officials who also had on off day with most of the decisions.

[Bakes]

Fair enough, but without being more specific it's kinda harsh or even difficult to make such a bold assertion.....In other words, if you were in Keano's seat, what would you have done differently, or what in particular has he said to imply such?

I haven't paid exta close attention to his line-ups and how they've matched the opposition, in fact this is the first time I'm watching 90 mins Sunderland, so I reserve my comments. According to the announcers, Keane made 4 changes btw the first game and the second, and 4 btw the second and the third- how to determine or even estimate which of those changes were proactive or reactionary......your guess is as good as mine.

steups...I really doh see what so 'bold' about what I said.  

Keane probably was kicking himself for playing too conservative a line up against Birmingham and consequently there wasn't enough finishing up front on the few opportunities that they had.  Here he questionably plays three strikers up front, stressing an already thin mid-field that itself is over-reliant on an aging Dwight Yorke. The result?  Lack of cohesiveness and continuity in midfield, limiting offensive chances and creating defensive lapses by continuously giving away possession and failing to pressure the opposing mid.  Wigan consequently had enough time to punish the struggling Sunderland 'D' by coming forward with wave after wave of attack.

With this in mind I take particular exception to his statement about players helping him make his decisions.  Granted a good bit of them didnt' show up today, but I don't believe in throwing people under the bus...whether name was called or not.  In watching the game I don't see a total lack of effort, I see men playing as though they're unfamiliar with each other, or unfamiliar with what's being asked of them.  I would thus hesitate before I out and out criticise him, but in light of the foregoing I feel justified in my observations.

Spurs was correct 

[g]

Fair enough, but without being more specific it's kinda harsh or even difficult to make such a bold assertion.....In other words, if you were in Keano's seat, what would you have done differently, or what in particular has he said to imply such?

I haven't paid exta close attention to his line-ups and how they've matched the opposition, in fact this is the first time I'm watching 90 mins Sunderland, so I reserve my comments. According to the announcers, Keane made 4 changes btw the first game and the second, and 4 btw the second and the third- how to determine or even estimate which of those changes were proactive or reactionary......your guess is as good as mine.

steups...I really doh see what so 'bold' about what I said.  

Keane probably was kicking himself for playing too conservative a line up against Birmingham and consequently there wasn't enough finishing up front on the few opportunities that they had.  Here he questionably plays three strikers up front, stressing an already thin mid-field that itself is over-reliant on an aging Dwight Yorke. The result?  Lack of cohesiveness and continuity in midfield, limiting offensive chances and creating defensive lapses by continuously giving away possession and failing to pressure the opposing mid.  Wigan consequently had enough time to punish the struggling Sunderland 'D' by coming forward with wave after wave of attack.

With this in mind I take particular exception to his statement about players helping him make his decisions.  Granted a good bit of them didnt' show up today, but I don't believe in throwing people under the bus...whether name was called or not.  In watching the game I don't see a total lack of effort, I see men playing as though they're unfamiliar with each other, or unfamiliar with what's being asked of them.  I would thus hesitate before I out and out criticise him, but in light of the foregoing I feel justified in my observations.

Spurs was correct 

Yea that will happen with most promoted teams who attempt to make wholesale changes to their squad during the offseason to "compete" with the rest of the premiership when in reality they shoot themselves in the foot most of the time with squad overhauling which requires at least 10 to 12 games for real cohesion to take place.. They will improve with the more games they play, i eh worried bout Sunderland. Well at least not yet.

[kicker]

Fair enough, but without being more specific it's kinda harsh or even difficult to make such a bold assertion.....In other words, if you were in Keano's seat, what would you have done differently, or what in particular has he said to imply such?

I haven't paid exta close attention to his line-ups and how they've matched the opposition, in fact this is the first time I'm watching 90 mins Sunderland, so I reserve my comments. According to the announcers, Keane made 4 changes btw the first game and the second, and 4 btw the second and the third- how to determine or even estimate which of those changes were proactive or reactionary......your guess is as good as mine.

steups...I really doh see what so 'bold' about what I said.  

Keane probably was kicking himself for playing too conservative a line up against Birmingham and consequently there wasn't enough finishing up front on the few opportunities that they had.  Here he questionably plays three strikers up front, stressing an already thin mid-field that itself is over-reliant on an aging Dwight Yorke. The result?  Lack of cohesiveness and continuity in midfield, limiting offensive chances and creating defensive lapses by continuously giving away possession and failing to pressure the opposing mid.  Wigan consequently had enough time to punish the struggling Sunderland 'D' by coming forward with wave after wave of attack.

With this in mind I take particular exception to his statement about players helping him make his decisions.  Granted a good bit of them didnt' show up today, but I don't believe in throwing people under the bus...whether name was called or not.  In watching the game I don't see a total lack of effort, I see men playing as though they're unfamiliar with each other, or unfamiliar with what's being asked of them.  I would thus hesitate before I out and out criticise him, but in light of the foregoing I feel justified in my observations.

Spurs was correct 

Well we know Keano has no cover for his mouth......Somehow I feel that won't change....His comment about players making decisions for him wasn't really throwing anyone under the bus though (just barely  )......in fact that was quite diplomatic by Keane's standards. Alotta times the coach bears the brunt of a team's poor performance and I think it's ok for the players to look in the mirror in downtimes especially when the display was as woeful as today's.

What you describe though sounds more like a coach struggling to get it right with somewhat limited resources, and a lack of real quality all around the field- so therefore making some guesses (not always the right ones). Overly reactionary or not proactive enough- I'm not sold on that notion....

My only doubt in Keane is the level of confidence that he inspires....To me Keano sounds like a coach who is abit fearful of the worst case scenario, and he's not absolutely sure of the level of quality in his team..

coaching inexperience? yes...a fear of losing? perhaps.... baptism of fire? it was due....and I have a feeling we haven't seen the worst yet... 

It's still early days....

[just cool]

Sunderland make shit snake wigan look like man-u .

[just cool]

Hey cartman what's up bro, long time no hear. did you forget the address.

[Bakes]

Yea that will happen with most promoted teams who attempt to make wholesale changes to their squad during the offseason to "compete" with the rest of the premiership when in reality they shoot themselves in the foot most of the time with squad overhauling which requires at least 10 to 12 games for real cohesion to take place.. They will improve with the more games they play, i eh worried bout Sunderland. Well at least not yet.

10-12 games is damn near a third of the season...they might want to have it figured out by then.

[Bakes]

Well we know Keano has no cover for his mouth......Somehow I feel that won't change....His comment about players making decisions for him wasn't really throwing anyone under the bus though (just barely  )......in fact that was quite diplomatic by Keane's standards. Alotta times the coach bears the brunt of a team's poor performance and I think it's ok for the players to look in the mirror in downtimes especially when the display was as woeful as today's.

I dunno how you in good faith say he wasn't throwing his players under the bus...I'm sure he wasn't alluding to good play in saying that.  Again, granted he didn't call anyone by name, but a casual glance at next game's starting line up will be revelatory enough.

What you describe though sounds more like a coach struggling to get it right with somewhat limited resources, and a lack of real quality all around the field- so therefore making some guesses (not always the right ones). Overly reactionary or not proactive enough- I'm not sold on that notion....

and you don't have to be sold.  The very fact that the players aren't talented enough, according to your statement means that they are playing above their heads and as such the expectations vis a vis their performance has to be tempered.  If the expectations are tempered then the comments should follow suit...you cannot expect consistently good play from an mediocre, patchwork team...then turn around and bash them in the press for not performing better.  Either they're good enough to compete (collectively, not individually) on this level or not...and if they're not then reserve your harsh criticism for the privacyy of the locker room.

My only doubt in Keane is the level of confidence that he inspires....To me Keano sounds like a coach who is abit fearful of the worst case scenario, and he's not absolutely sure of the level of quality in his team..

coaching inexperience? yes...a fear of losing? perhaps.... baptism of fire? it was due....and I have a feeling we haven't seen the worst yet... 

It's still early days....

...and perhaps you're now starting to understand my comment about applying a filter to his mouth, exactly what does he expect out of this team, and what does he expect from his players particularly when he cuts them down publicly like he did today?  There's much to be said for being frank and even brash...you need me least of all to say that.  However, this isn't a very seasoned club that he's dealing with and the fragility of their egos aside, it's simple common sense, you can't throw a donkey among thoroughbreds and expect it to place...and when if doesn't you flog it like you would an underachieving purebred.

[asylumseeker]

There's much to be said for being frank and even brash...you need me least of all to say that.

 

Lehme infringe on a man tings by saying "ah love it!"

[g]

Yea that will happen with most promoted teams who attempt to make wholesale changes to their squad during the offseason to "compete" with the rest of the premiership when in reality they shoot themselves in the foot most of the time with squad overhauling which requires at least 10 to 12 games for real cohesion to take place.. They will improve with the more games they play, i eh worried bout Sunderland. Well at least not yet.

10-12 games is damn near a third of the season...they might want to have it figured out by then.

well 10-12 games including preseason should be only about 4 or 5 games in the league maybe even less, probably a month or so.

[takenoprisoners]

Daily Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/football.html?in_article_id=476278&in_page_id=1779
Keane loses it

After the WAGS, Sunderland's boss lays into his clueless players

Last updated at 21:20pm on 18th August 2007
 
Angry Sunderland manager Roy Keane went on the warpath again, but this time the venom was directed at his own Sunderland players rather than the nation's WAGS.

Keane made waves last week by criticising footballers' wives and girlfriends for influencing players to join clubs in London rather than Wearside because the shopping was better.


Read more...
As Theo Walcott's girl Melanie proves WAGs are not all airheads, she hits back at soccer boss Keane's claims

But the fairer sex was spared another Keane rant following his side's dismal 3-0 defeat at Wigan Athletic, the first time the Irishman had lost as a Premier League manager.

Instead, Keane laid into his players for their incompetence, promising to make drastic changes to prevent any repeat results this season.

Keane watched in horror as Emile Heskey, Denny Landzaat and Antoine Sibierski scored for Wigan as they went top of the League for the first time in their history.

The last two goals were from penalties conceded by Sunderland and Keane said: 'We didn't pass, we didn't tackle and we didn't defend. Normally you can take one plus out of a performance, but I couldn't find one from this.

'We keep giving ourselves mountains to climb. We got away with it in the Championship last season, but we can't afford to keep doing it in the Premiership. Even a blind man can see that.'

And in a warning to established stars such as his former Manchester United team-mate Dwight Yorke, who was replaced at half-time, Keane added: 'There is a fine line between loyalty and stupidity. I have been stupid. It won't happen again.'

Keane adding more fuel to the fire. Is Dwight being set up to be the fall guy after 3 games? Leh we hope this was a misquote as there is enough blame to share around.

[kicker]

Well we know Keano has no cover for his mouth......Somehow I feel that won't change....His comment about players making decisions for him wasn't really throwing anyone under the bus though (just barely  )......in fact that was quite diplomatic by Keane's standards. Alotta times the coach bears the brunt of a team's poor performance and I think it's ok for the players to look in the mirror in downtimes especially when the display was as woeful as today's.

I dunno how you in good faith say he wasn't throwing his players under the bus...I'm sure he wasn't alluding to good play in saying that.  Again, granted he didn't call anyone by name, but a casual glance at next game's starting line up will be revelatory enough.

What you describe though sounds more like a coach struggling to get it right with somewhat limited resources, and a lack of real quality all around the field- so therefore making some guesses (not always the right ones). Overly reactionary or not proactive enough- I'm not sold on that notion....

and you don't have to be sold.  The very fact that the players aren't talented enough, according to your statement means that they are playing above their heads and as such the expectations vis a vis their performance has to be tempered.  If the expectations are tempered then the comments should follow suit...you cannot expect consistently good play from an mediocre, patchwork team...then turn around and bash them in the press for not performing better.  Either they're good enough to compete (collectively, not individually) on this level or not...and if they're not then reserve your harsh criticism for the privacyy of the locker room.

My only doubt in Keane is the level of confidence that he inspires....To me Keano sounds like a coach who is abit fearful of the worst case scenario, and he's not absolutely sure of the level of quality in his team..

coaching inexperience? yes...a fear of losing? perhaps.... baptism of fire? it was due....and I have a feeling we haven't seen the worst yet... 

It's still early days....

...and perhaps you're now starting to understand my comment about applying a filter to his mouth, exactly what does he expect out of this team, and what does he expect from his players particularly when he cuts them down publicly like he did today?  There's much to be said for being frank and even brash...you need me least of all to say that.  However, this isn't a very seasoned club that he's dealing with and the fragility of their egos aside, it's simple common sense, you can't throw a donkey among thoroughbreds and expect it to place...and when if doesn't you flog it like you would an underachieving purebred.

Well I think everyone is on the same page with respect to Keano's diplomacy- there was never any disputing that he leaves a bit to be desired in that department.

His degree of proactiveness against him being a reactionary manager in his tactics was the point of contention. As a manager I would hope that he is doing his homework, and I don't know enough to suggest that he isn't.

In terms of his comments- I don't think it's a reflection of his expectations in the ability department- He should know enough to know that he doesn't have the cream of the crop. I think he's fearful that if his team doesn't play to the absolute best of their ability, they will be made to suffer...and he doesn't seem fully satisfied with the effort that his players are putting forward- put that together with an inexperienced, possibly nervous & insecure coach who probably can't even spell discretion- and the result is plain to see.....

[saga pinto]

I dunno...but I'm a little disappointed in Keane thus far.  He seems to have a penchant for speaking absent of forethought or due consideration...which only seem compounded in light of some of his coaching decisions. While I defer to his experience and expertise, it seems all of his decisions are being done in a reactionary manner...retroactive, rather than proactive.

Well said!

[Bakes]

Well I think everyone is on the same page with respect to Keano's diplomacy- there was never any disputing that he leaves a bit to be desired in that department.

His degree of proactiveness against him being a reactionary manager in his tactics was the point of contention. As a manager I would hope that he is doing his homework, and I don't know enough to suggest that he isn't.

In terms of his comments- I don't think it's a reflection of his expectations in the ability department- He should know enough to know that he doesn't have the cream of the crop. I think he's fearful that if his team doesn't play to the absolute best of their ability, they will be made to suffer...and he doesn't seem fully satisfied with the effort that his players are putting forward- put that together with an inexperienced, possibly nervous & insecure coach who probably can't even spell discretion- and the result is plain to see.....

You miss my point...as you would if you just focus on my critique of his tactics.  Revisit my statements again and you'll see exactly what my issue with him is.  It is his comments about his players, particularly in light of the fact that he himself put them in a difficult position (in my no ball-kicking self opinion) with his tactical alignment.  So with questionable coaching he put an already mediocre squad between a rock and a hard place, then they fall flat on their faces and he lays into them. 

As for not throwing them under the bus...look at the daily mail article posted by takenoprisoners, you'll see I'm not the only one who interpreted his comments as an unnecessarily harsh rebuke of his players.  I didn't even see the comments purportedly made with Yorke in mind...and I agree that this was seemingly directed at Yorke, particularly given his early shower today.

[giggsy11]

Fair enough, but without being more specific it's kinda harsh or even difficult to make such a bold assertion.....In other words, if you were in Keano's seat, what would you have done differently, or what in particular has he said to imply such?

I haven't paid exta close attention to his line-ups and how they've matched the opposition, in fact this is the first time I'm watching 90 mins Sunderland, so I reserve my comments. According to the announcers, Keane made 4 changes btw the first game and the second, and 4 btw the second and the third- how to determine or even estimate which of those changes were proactive or reactionary......your guess is as good as mine.

steups...I really doh see what so 'bold' about what I said.  

Keane probably was kicking himself for playing too conservative a line up against Birmingham and consequently there wasn't enough finishing up front on the few opportunities that they had.  Here he questionably plays three strikers up front, stressing an already thin mid-field that itself is over-reliant on an aging Dwight Yorke. The result?  Lack of cohesiveness and continuity in midfield, limiting offensive chances and creating defensive lapses by continuously giving away possession and failing to pressure the opposing mid.  Wigan consequently had enough time to punish the struggling Sunderland 'D' by coming forward with wave after wave of attack.

With this in mind I take particular exception to his statement about players helping him make his decisions.  Granted a good bit of them didnt' show up today, but I don't believe in throwing people under the bus...whether name was called or not.  In watching the game I don't see a total lack of effort, I see men playing as though they're unfamiliar with each other, or unfamiliar with what's being asked of them.  I would thus hesitate before I out and out criticise him, but in light of the foregoing I feel justified in my observations.

Spurs was correct 

Well we know Keano has no cover for his mouth......Somehow I feel that won't change....His comment about players making decisions for him wasn't really throwing anyone under the bus though (just barely  )......in fact that was quite diplomatic by Keane's standards. Alotta times the coach bears the brunt of a team's poor performance and I think it's ok for the players to look in the mirror in downtimes especially when the display was as woeful as today's.

What you describe though sounds more like a coach struggling to get it right with somewhat limited resources, and a lack of real quality all around the field- so therefore making some guesses (not always the right ones). Overly reactionary or not proactive enough- I'm not sold on that notion....

My only doubt in Keane is the level of confidence that he inspires....To me Keano sounds like a coach who is abit fearful of the worst case scenario, and he's not absolutely sure of the level of quality in his team..

coaching inexperience? yes...a fear of losing? perhaps.... baptism of fire? it was due....and I have a feeling we haven't seen the worst yet... 

It's still early days....

I agree still early for Keano, shit is not like he paid any dues. Unfortunately his learning on the job will be at the expense of Sunderland staying in the Premiership.

[kicker]

Well I think everyone is on the same page with respect to Keano's diplomacy- there was never any disputing that he leaves a bit to be desired in that department.

His degree of proactiveness against him being a reactionary manager in his tactics was the point of contention. As a manager I would hope that he is doing his homework, and I don't know enough to suggest that he isn't.

In terms of his comments- I don't think it's a reflection of his expectations in the ability department- He should know enough to know that he doesn't have the cream of the crop. I think he's fearful that if his team doesn't play to the absolute best of their ability, they will be made to suffer...and he doesn't seem fully satisfied with the effort that his players are putting forward- put that together with an inexperienced, possibly nervous & insecure coach who probably can't even spell discretion- and the result is plain to see.....

You miss my point...as you would if you just focus on my critique of his tactics.  Revisit my statements again and you'll see exactly what my issue with him is.  It is his comments about his players, particularly in light of the fact that he himself put them in a difficult position (in my no ball-kicking self opinion) with his tactical alignment.  So with questionable coaching he put an already mediocre squad between a rock and a hard place, then they fall flat on their faces and he lays into them. 

As for not throwing them under the bus...look at the daily mail article posted by takenoprisoners, you'll see I'm not the only one who interpreted his comments as an unnecessarily harsh rebuke of his players.  I didn't even see the comments purportedly made with Yorke in mind...and I agree that this was seemingly directed at Yorke, particularly given his early shower today.

Nah man I totally  hear what yuh sayin'. From my first response I was with yuh on Keane's general degree of diplomacy despite having a slightly different interpretation of "throwing under the bus"

cheers 

[Bakes]

Nah man I totally  hear what yuh sayin'. From my first response I was with yuh on Keane's general degree of diplomacy despite having a slightly different interpretation of "throwing under the bus"

cheers 

 

[asylumseeker]

I haven't seen the game yet so I can't attest to the merits. However, I do have a question related to Emile Heskey. Could  someone comment about his performance today?

I find him an unlikely hero.

[kicker]

I haven't seen the game yet so I can't attest to the merits. However, I do have a question related to Emile Heskey. Could  someone comment about his performance today?

I find him an unlikely hero.

Heskey was Heskey- not entertaining to look at, noting spectacular but workmanlike- against opposition like Sunderland he can be & was effective. His goal was offside, but wasn't called and he drew a penalty off of some sloppy defending later on.....nothing else to write home about.

[fatimarima]

Is amazing how differently people can interpret the same events.

Listening to the commentary, its clear that Sunderland was pretty much overun in the first half, and losing the midfield battle.

At the half, he decided to change two midfielders (Dwight and Stokes was playing midfield as opposed to striking) He brought on Collins, a defender for an attacking midfielder, and replaced Dwight for Miller, a (supposedly) more energetic midfielder.

I personally believe that the third sub was for Stern but the injury to McShane put paid to that.

Say what you want, Keane gambled by making both subs at halftime and he lost, on a pure hasard (the injury). That said, I don't blame him for subbing Dwight, he must've touched the ball 4 times in the half. That is hardly what one can expect of a midfield general.

All this shows is that Sunderland's squad is pretty thin. Their bench is generally weak. Any sure starter missing is a recipe for disaster. Without Edwards they lack spark in the middle, without Mcshane they lack steel in the back, and if Dwight and/or Etuhu have an off day, then can be overrun.

As for Keanes rhetoric, he's never been someone to hold his tongue, he won't start now.

I agree with most of what you are saying.  Keane gambled a bit by making those two substitutions at half time. However I dont agree with your view on the Dwight sub.  I saw the game and what I observed was good strong tackles from Dwight and good forward passes.  He also made several good runs into the box but the ball was not played through.  It was a sub gamble that did not work and the McShane injury made things worse.   Better luck next time for sunderland and Keane.