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Offline E-man

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U-17: Style vs substance
« on: August 21, 2007, 11:28:21 PM »
Style vs substance
By: Fazeer Mohammed (Express)


Wednesday, August 22nd 2007
 
 It's about time we fling that shovel out of the equipment bag. Anton Corneal's comment about the national under-17 team digging a hole for themselves on the way to Monday's 4-1 loss to Ghana was just another version of a familiar lament about the way we generally play football in Trinidad and Tobago, and what usually happens when our national teams, of all age-groups, step onto the international stage.

Just as the Opposition of the day can be relied upon to lambaste almost every aspect of any Finance Minister's budget presentation, so too can we almost close our eyes and predict what will happen in the remaining two Group F games of the Under-17 World Cup against Colombia and Germany.

Despite the underdog status, there will be moments of creative brilliance in attack. But even if it results in an early goal, glaring defensive frailties are likely to be embarrassingly exposed, leaving all diehard supporters of the red, white and black to torture themselves about what could have been if such-and-such chance had been put into the back of the net and if so-and-so wasn't sleeping at the back.

Tomorrow morning's duel with the Colombians in Cheonan will be our 11th game in four different global football tournaments over the past 16 years, from the Under-20 event in Portugal in 1991 to hosting the Under-17 version ten years later to last year's historic appearance in the senior tournament in Germany and now this competition in South Korea. Ten of those games have been lost (the exception of course being that memorable goalless draw with Sweden in Dortmund 14 months ago), and even if we haven't always been run off the park, the evidence is there in abundance that our general style of play remains deficient in taking us to the next level of international competition.

At times like this, when we're trying to assess where we went wrong, I'm reminded of an encounter with an Italian football writer on the eve of the decisive clash with the United States on November 19, 1989. Giancarlo Galavotti was one member of a fairly sizeable contingent of international journalists who had come here to see who would claim the 24th and final spot at the 1990 World Cup in Italy.


Of course, this country was in the firm grip of football frenzy and, as a result, objective analysis was in very short supply as we were all on board in backing Clayton Morris' side to make history at the expense of the Americans. A couple of days before the kick-off at the then National Stadium, I enquired of Galavotti as to the standard of our football when compared to other emerging nations. He wasn't fluent in English, but the word "naive" came up more than once in his halting explanation, although he tried to let me down in as polite a manner as possible.

Fast-forward to last Friday night and a lively exchange between former national teammates Everald Cummings and Lincoln Phillips during a radio programme. "Gally" was staunchly defending the "Kaisoca Soccer" concept that he developed and refined in his role as head coach in taking the national team to within a point of the World Cup finals. "Tiger", on the other hand, maintained that a truly indigenous style results in us looking good in spurts but invariably conceding a hatful of goals by the final whistle. In his position as technical director at the Trinidad and Tobago Football Federation, he was solidly endorsing the present drive to model a national football programme after the Dutch system.

These issues of style and identity need really to be addressed in a proper forum once and for all if our football is to progress beyond individual players making it big in some of the most glamorous and lucrative professional leagues in the world. So far, the sum of impressive parts is not adding up to a formidable whole, with or without the latest version of self-defeating bacchanal that invariably involves Jack Warner.


Clearly Leo Beenhakker, hailed as the great saviour in successfully resurrecting the 2006 World Cup qualifying campaign, exerts a very strong influence more than a year after departing to take charge of Poland. Yet, even after holding the Swedes to a stalemate and defying England for 84 minutes, there are many, especially fans of Russell Latapy, who maintain that the Dutchman's plan to get as many players as possible behind the ball in Germany robbed us of the chance to really exhibit our innate flair on the biggest showcase in world football.

The counter to that argument is that playing in true Trini fashion, although it may have been pleasing to the eye and even resulted in a goal or two, would have seen us getting bad, bad licks given what seems to be an almost inherent lack of discipline at the back. Everybody wants to attack, but few are prepared to put in the hard work to get back and defend. In one word: naive.

While the debate of foreign versus local continues, we also need to focus on whether, at the end of this experience in South Korea, we will be any closer to agreeing on the way forward for football in Trinidad and Tobago, and if that way forward is something we are comfortable with in striking the balance between style and results.

Maybe then our players, of all age groups, will stop taking shovels with them onto the pitch.

- fazeer2001@hotmail.com
 

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2007, 05:06:11 AM »
Fazeer Mohammed is a backside. 

Offline freakazoid

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2007, 05:50:09 AM »
dont see how you come to that conclusion from this article....the truth is the truth

seek ye 1st the kingdom of God & his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you


Offline Dinner Mints

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2007, 06:04:43 AM »
Fazeer Mohammed is a backside. 
What he say wrong?

Offline Midknight

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2007, 06:13:35 AM »
Fazeer Mohammed is a backside. 

Jah, you know we expect better from you than one line insults...please elaborate ?
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Offline Brownsugar

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2007, 06:29:21 AM »
Yeah Jah wha he say dat was so wrong??... ???
"...If yuh clothes tear up
Or yuh shoes burst off,
You could still jump up when music play.
Old lady, young baby, everybody could dingolay...
Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline Brownsugar

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2007, 06:33:35 AM »
Style vs substance
By: Fazeer Mohammed (Express)


Wednesday, August 22nd 2007
 
 
Tomorrow morning's duel with the Colombians in Cheonan will be our 11th game in four different global football tournaments over the past 16 years, from the Under-20 event in Portugal in 1991 to hosting the Under-17 version ten years later to last year's historic appearance in the senior tournament in Germany and now this competition in South Korea. Ten of those games have been lost (the exception of course being that memorable goalless draw with Sweden in Dortmund 14 months ago), and even if we haven't always been run off the park, the evidence is there in abundance that our general style of play remains deficient in taking us to the next level of international competition.
- fazeer2001@hotmail.com
 


In my humble opinion....nail on de head....
"...If yuh clothes tear up
Or yuh shoes burst off,
You could still jump up when music play.
Old lady, young baby, everybody could dingolay...
Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline WestCoast

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2007, 06:40:34 AM »
Fazeer Mohammed is a backside. 
i cant comment about that,
but what I do know is  that this article makes a lot of sense to me
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
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(1694 - 1773)

Offline trinikev

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2007, 07:02:37 AM »
As much as i hate to admit it, the man speaking the truth
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Offline 100% Barataria

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2007, 07:05:56 AM »
As much as i hate to admit it, the man speaking the truth

as we say right, plain talk bad manners, man talkin real sense
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Offline fishs

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2007, 07:17:18 AM »
 He is a real flecking backside oui.
What set ah goals Kaisoca Soccer leak ?
Fazeer is a damn a** to write an article and not check he facts.
The most goals that score against us in the qualify was 2.
So what set of goals we leak.
Gally is the best coach this nation have available but dey fraid to use him because he ent afraid to talk he mind.
Ah wonder how old Fazeer was when Gally had 2 national senior teams playing at the same time and they were ripping up all opposition.
Men who never play ball and only skip fuh exercise should leave big people game alone.
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline kaliman2006

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2007, 07:21:33 AM »
His article is right on the money. His comment about the inability of alll T&T teams to develop and maintain defensive discipline was clearly evident in the first game between our U-17's and the Ghanians.

Offline fishs

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2007, 07:26:45 AM »
His article is right on the money. His comment about the inability of alll T&T teams to develop and maintain defensive discipline was clearly evident in the first game between our U-17's and the Ghanians.

 Some 16yr olds from a little island with just over a million people that only playing together intermittently for the past year supposed to perform like Germany against the Ghanians that win this competition 2 times and only ever lose 3 games in 36 matchs at this level.
Allyuh men is some real clowns yes.
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline Midknight

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2007, 07:36:40 AM »
He is a real flecking backside oui.
What set ah goals Kaisoca Soccer leak ?
Fazeer is a damn a** to write an article and not check he facts.
The most goals that score against us in the qualify was 2.
So what set of goals we leak.
Gally is the best coach this nation have available but dey fraid to use him because he ent afraid to talk he mind.
Ah wonder how old Fazeer was when Gally had 2 national senior teams playing at the same time and they were ripping up all opposition.
Men who never play ball and only skip fuh exercise should leave big people game alone.

Fish's I nearly come out real strong on you before I realize is you that post this. I will humbly suggest that you reread the article again because I think you letting passion blind you a bit

Start from this part

Quote
Fast-forward to last Friday night and a lively exchange between former national teammates Everald Cummings and Lincoln Phillips during a radio programme. "Gally" was staunchly defending the "Kaisoca Soccer" concept that he developed and refined in his role as head coach in taking the national team to within a point of the World Cup finals. "Tiger", on the other hand, maintained that a truly indigenous style results in us looking good in spurts but invariably conceding a hatful of goals by the final whistle. In his position as technical director at the Trinidad and Tobago Football Federation, he was solidly endorsing the present drive to model a national football programme after the Dutch system.
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Offline Trini _2022

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2007, 08:11:34 AM »
Gally with his famous Cliche   :o boy midnight ----- what we need is a combination of style and substance
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 08:21:31 AM by DWarriorMan-in-tobago »
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Offline kicker

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2007, 08:44:55 AM »
I find it funny that we always claim to have this abundance of style & flair....I don't see it.

The only times I've seen us really exhibit "stylish" football is against shitty Caribbean teams...and that was a while ago when players like Latas & Leonson Lewis were in their prime.

An occasional cut back or drag from Carlos Edwards or Autis Whitely doesn't consititute attractive football......

All the talk about Beenie stifling our football in the WC is crap. We didn't have the quality in our team to dominate any of our opposition in the attack. We made some forays in the last 20 mins against Paraguay when Latas came in- that was last ditch football from a team that was chasing a game against another team that was comfortably up 2-0 and had already been eliminated from the tournament- and that 20 mins have everybody tie up delusionary......jokes yes.

T&T football is in need of creative attacking play almost just as much as it is in need of defensive fortitude and structure.

From all accounts it seems like that the U-17 are coming close to getting it right though......wish them the best.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2007, 09:12:13 AM by kicker »
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Offline Jah Gol

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2007, 09:08:13 AM »
My repsonse was uncharacteristic indeed .

Mohammed's record on football commentary has been consistently negative. That in itself is not wrong since journalisitc objectivity  means reporting the negative realities. My problem with Mohammed is that he paints a decidely gloomy picture irrespective of what happens. What at all qualifies him to make this assessment? Did Mohammed follow the development of this team at all? Furthermore, I question the relavance and even the originality of concept of style vs identity in the context of the present U17 team.I am not a convinced that this team has a problem with either.

Defensive errors are not always indicative of an embedded philosophical or systemic deficiency. If anything the defensive work ethic that he(Mohammed) refers to is present in this team. If you lose to a better team you lose to a better team. I am not sure how the reference to the Strike Squad and this team can be given any logical credence either.

He throws into the mix the 2006 squad, a team built around plenty running and hard-nosed defending but with a creative decifit that them strangers to Trini football. I think I understand what he's talking about. However, I feel the inclusion of this U17 team into his argument is misplaced. This leads me to believe that Mohammed has not observed this side adequately.  

Offline grskywalker

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2007, 09:13:36 AM »
Fazeer Mohammed is a backside. 

It is very true and as recent as the Gold Cup we saw how inept we are at defending. We all love to see a man get beat but to what end, we attack in spurts and loose the balll due to lack of creativity and not enough players moving into spaces.

Remember Donovon's great run past all our defenders and squaring to Johnson. I remember too in the 2002 qualifiers Ernie Stewart blowing past Ansil Elcock to score  similar fashion. We are terrible when it come to defending

Offline Brownsugar

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2007, 11:30:27 AM »
Fazeer Mohammed is a backside.


Defensive errors are not always indicative of an embedded philosophical or systemic deficiency.

Oooooooh come back dey sah......yuh give we ah Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde dey.... ;D

Seriously though, when ah read yuh original statement ah had ah feeling yuh was initially annoyed cuz yuh been following dis team and know de team well and his reference to dis U17 team might have touched a nerve.

But if ah follow Mohammed's arguments in terms of our football in general, he have a point....
"...If yuh clothes tear up
Or yuh shoes burst off,
You could still jump up when music play.
Old lady, young baby, everybody could dingolay...
Dingolay, ay, ay, ay ay,
Dingolay ay, ay, ay..."

RIP Shadow....The legend will live on in music...

Offline fishs

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2007, 11:28:35 PM »
He is a real flecking backside oui.
What set ah goals Kaisoca Soccer leak ?
Fazeer is a damn a** to write an article and not check he facts.
The most goals that score against us in the qualify was 2.
So what set of goals we leak.
Gally is the best coach this nation have available but dey fraid to use him because he ent afraid to talk he mind.
Ah wonder how old Fazeer was when Gally had 2 national senior teams playing at the same time and they were ripping up all opposition.
Men who never play ball and only skip fuh exercise should leave big people game alone.

Fish's I nearly come out real strong on you before I realize is you that post this. I will humbly suggest that you reread the article again because I think you letting passion blind you a bit

Start from this part

Quote
Fast-forward to last Friday night and a lively exchange between former national teammates Everald Cummings and Lincoln Phillips during a radio programme. "Gally" was staunchly defending the "Kaisoca Soccer" concept that he developed and refined in his role as head coach in taking the national team to within a point of the World Cup finals. "Tiger", on the other hand, maintained that a truly indigenous style results in us looking good in spurts but invariably conceding a hatful of goals by the final whistle. In his position as technical director at the Trinidad and Tobago Football Federation, he was solidly endorsing the present drive to model a national football programme after the Dutch system.

Nah Midknight, I following this fella's ramblings about football for quite sometime and like he can't get over what happen in '89 and always very subtly laying all the blame on Gally and not fully realising that it is a football game and sometimes the best teams lose whether you like it or not.

At times like this, when we're trying to assess where we went wrong, I'm reminded of an encounter with an Italian football writer on the eve of the decisive clash with the United States on November 19, 1989. Giancarlo Galavotti was one member of a fairly sizeable contingent of international journalists who had come here to see who would claim the 24th and final spot at the 1990 World Cup in Italy.


Of course, this country was in the firm grip of football frenzy and, as a result, objective analysis was in very short supply as we were all on board in backing Clayton Morris' side to make history at the expense of the Americans. A couple of days before the kick-off at the then National Stadium, I enquired of Galavotti as to the standard of our football when compared to other emerging nations. He wasn't fluent in English, but the word "naive" came up more than once in his halting explanation, although he tried to let me down in as polite a manner as possible.


What or more to the point, who he alluding to here ?


The counter to that argument is that playing in true Trini fashion, although it may have been pleasing to the eye and even resulted in a goal or two, would have seen us getting bad, bad licks given what seems to be an almost inherent lack of discipline at the back. Everybody wants to attack, but few are prepared to put in the hard work to get back and defend. In one word: naive.

And here what bad licks he talking bout ?
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Offline weary1969

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2007, 02:31:53 AM »
Jah meh boii yuh understand when I meet yuh I taught yuh was older by yuh post an dem. Midnight feel I have a vendetta against d man but F.azeer is a bigger clown than in d post with Lawerence.
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Offline Midknight

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2007, 07:56:12 PM »


Nah Midknight, I following this fella's ramblings about football for quite sometime and like he can't get over what happen in '89 and always very subtly laying all the blame on Gally and not fully realising that it is a football game and sometimes the best teams lose whether you like it or not.

At times like this, when we're trying to assess where we went wrong, I'm reminded of an encounter with an Italian football writer on the eve of the decisive clash with the United States on November 19, 1989. Giancarlo Galavotti was one member of a fairly sizeable contingent of international journalists who had come here to see who would claim the 24th and final spot at the 1990 World Cup in Italy.


Of course, this country was in the firm grip of football frenzy and, as a result, objective analysis was in very short supply as we were all on board in backing Clayton Morris' side to make history at the expense of the Americans. A couple of days before the kick-off at the then National Stadium, I enquired of Galavotti as to the standard of our football when compared to other emerging nations. He wasn't fluent in English, but the word "naive" came up more than once in his halting explanation, although he tried to let me down in as polite a manner as possible.


What or more to the point, who he alluding to here ?


The counter to that argument is that playing in true Trini fashion, although it may have been pleasing to the eye and even resulted in a goal or two, would have seen us getting bad, bad licks given what seems to be an almost inherent lack of discipline at the back. Everybody wants to attack, but few are prepared to put in the hard work to get back and defend. In one word: naive.

And here what bad licks he talking bout ?

You may be right on his bitterness with 1989/Gally; I can't argue with you on something that happen before I had all mih teeth, but I interpreted the (hypothetical) 'bad licks' to be what we woulda collect in Germany if we didn't play Beenie ball.

In any case in that last part he just presents two sides of an arguments that we have had many times on this board, without taking any sides. You could say you know where he coming from but you can't criticise a man article on what he never say.

Just My 2 cents, we doh have to agree on this one
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Offline kounty

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2007, 09:08:03 PM »
I personally find this saddist always pessimistic about football , cricket etc...but one thing I did note when he write this particular article is that he stand up like a man before the thing happen and say that we going and get we tail wash (knowing full well that most of the readers were not thinking so) before it actually happen...and not like other journalists who go coem after the fact and say " I did know we wasn' goin an win a game...but I jes...." ...so full props for the bravery in this article

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2007, 09:13:21 PM »
You guys might be pro or con about Fazeer and his articles. But there is some truth to what he says in his most recent piece.

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2007, 09:16:24 PM »
Ah have to agree with Jah Gol when he explatiate on he reason fuh callin Faz a ass.

Faz normally negative....whether is cricket or football.

He does appear to make good points but I does get de impression Faz more like de "sound a he own voice" or in dis case "see he self in writin" dan anyting else.  A kinda contrarian nah.  Love to sound impressive and ting.

De fella is one a de better cricket commentators it have....once he get past heself and stick to jes relayin wha goin on out on de field rather than lookin to use big word to seem more important or quotin a setta stats.

It hard to take him serious wit football because he eh no football lover....he doh be around no national team games....heself admit he only tune een when we play Bahrain in bahrain etc.  So all dis talk in he article, while as ah say might contain some truisms, to me is more really bout Faz dan anyting else.
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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2007, 09:27:27 PM »
We all know Fazeer is cricket journalist who sometimes write about football. But that still don't deny the fact that all our teams from GC to U15 lack both style and substance.

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2007, 09:56:48 PM »
We all know Fazeer is cricket journalist who sometimes write about football. But that still don't deny the fact that all our teams from GC to U15 lack both style and substance.

Den de article is jes a exercise in affirmation of someting everybody done know den.
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

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Re: U-17: Style vs substance
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2007, 10:01:40 PM »
Weel, tru that!