Venezuela could leave us in the dust

[Deeks]

And I also agree with Observer statement.

[Bakes]

Bake N Shark, Filho and Trini Kev, all of alyuh falling into the same trap.
Whether the statement relevant or not is irrelevant. Zeppo, as Dutty say, was obviously giving us some picong.
Either the picong hard enough to merit a snide response on your part, or it too subtle/weak to merit one and you let it slide and continue your normally scheduled conversation.

I'm not falling into any trap at all...I'm well familiar with Zeppo's posts.  Half the time they're innocuous, yet many on here take umbrage at them (I guess because he's American he has no business posting here, or posting about his team here).  The other half he's dishing as much as he's getting...

[Bakes]

if Zeppo is trying to make an inference about the level of funding the sports receive in their individual countries, or the level of fan support, or political support, or the size of the playing population he'd do better than state that baseball is the #1 sport. I can't even infer whether he is saying football is the #2 sport or the #5.  What does a blanket statement about relative popularity tell us me about anything? Nada. I could make some broad assumptions, and infer something or the other..but then I wouldn't be sure what inference to choose..so i simply ask for an elaboration.

I'm sure he'd do much better than state what he did if he gave it half as much thought as you just did.  I think it's relatively easy to derive the inference I did (it's my inference...for all I know I'm way off base as to what he meant), and I know all too well how a simple throw 'way comment can spawn over-analysis ad nauseaum.

At any rate, I'm sure Zeppo can come back and clarify his comments if he so chooses.

[Midknight]

Who cares? Venezuela is not our concern unless we bounce in the WC. Maybe our eye on the wrong threat. CONCACAF is our concern and we should be looking to secure our position in CONCACAF. Study closely, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala, Jamaica, Canada etc etc. Once we bump off dem Nations then worry about who to come.

True talk dat. The question that it begs though is simply this: Is TNT capable of claiming  one of the top 3 spots in Concacaf, based on player pool, administrative and tactical preparation, fan and corporate support and on the level of our potential adversaries?

[Flash7]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.

[fishs]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.

Actually the most piopular sport in TT is casino gambling.
And it is a sport , they does show it on ESPN

[slates]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.

Actually the most piopular sport in TT is casino gambling.
And it is a sport , they does show it on ESPN

Eh-eh pardner... de # 1 sport in Trinidad is dat shooting game wit de lil paint balls.

De tragedy is doh, dat while in other countries, dey take de lead out of de paint and use de lead-free paint, in Trinidad, dey take de paint out de lead and use de paint-free lead.

[asylumseeker]

Who cares? Venezuela is not our concern unless we bounce in the WC. Maybe our eye on the wrong threat. CONCACAF is our concern and we should be looking to secure our position in CONCACAF. Study closely, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala, Jamaica, Canada etc etc. Once we bump off dem Nations then worry about who to come.

True talk dat. The question that it begs though is simply this: Is TNT capable of claiming one of the top 3 spots in Concacaf, based on player pool, administrative and tactical preparation, fan and corporate support and on the level of our potential adversaries?

I think this view is short-sighted. It's obvious that they won't have a direct impact on whether we qualify for South Africa. There are lessons to be learned from the experiences of many football nations - the vast majority of whom we do not play in WC qualifiers. Further, insistence on rejecting wisdom outside of CONCACAF leaves us where?

[dinho]

Who cares? Venezuela is not our concern unless we bounce in the WC. Maybe our eye on the wrong threat. CONCACAF is our concern and we should be looking to secure our position in CONCACAF. Study closely, Panama, Cuba, Guatemala, Jamaica, Canada etc etc. Once we bump off dem Nations then worry about who to come.

True talk dat. The question that it begs though is simply this: Is TNT capable of claiming one of the top 3 spots in Concacaf, based on player pool, administrative and tactical preparation, fan and corporate support and on the level of our potential adversaries?

I think this view is short-sighted. It's obvious that they won't have a direct impact on whether we qualify for South Africa. There are lessons to be learned from the experiences of many football nations - the vast majority of whom we do not play in WC qualifiers. Further, insistence on rejecting wisdom outside of CONCACAF leaves us where?

true but just the thread title "venezuela could leave us in the dust" implies that we are in some kinda direct competition or rivalry with venezuela..

it would be more understandable if the approach was, "we could learn from venezuela's development" or something along those lines, because we dont really have anything to compare with them..

we really dont need to take heed of them solely for the fact that they are located within swimming distance... their population size, administration, politics, confederation, footballing history/pedigree and the fact that football is not their major sport leaves few parallels for us to ponder..

[asylumseeker]

Good Evening Guys.
                            It kind of hard to answer yes or no to that question. We hardly ever play Venezuela in football even though they are our closet neighbour. I remember in the early 70's Venzuela came to TT to play a couple goodwill matches. They sent university students thinking TT was a walkover. Steve David, Jimmy Springer and Buggy Haynes drop one set of goals in dey backside in the 3 games. Scores were 7-0, 6-0, something like that. They then invite TT for a return visit. TT went down and lost both games. I think was 3-1 and 2-0. This time the Venezuela use their pro. players. I must also note when the team came back they strike. They did not get their stipend. After that Jimmy Springer never kick a ball again.

Yes, Venezuela is or was the doormat of Conmebol, but TT always have time beating them. Ven. has always had a bona-fide pro-league. I think in the 50's Mathew Nunes and some other TT players did play pro ball in Ven. Their league always have players from Brazil, Argentina, Colombia etc. Ven. club has won the South American club champioships before. I think is FC Caracas. In the most recent edition of 4-2-4 magazine, The Ven. federation has restructured their league and added new clubs. They are now using the stadiums they built for the SA champiomships. They have money and they working hard to improve to go to the WC, especially after seeing their insignificant neighbor shine in Germant last year. It would be something else if TT and Ven have to fight out for the last spot for South Africa.

The 'neighbour' factor ... what would be more useful ... rejoicing in kicking Bajan arse repeatedly or exploiting ties with a neighbour that we have other ties with ... (albeit mostly flowing in one direction) ...

The 'scale' factor ... they were certainly attentive to that.

The 'physical plant' factor ... last nation to host the Copa America ... put a lot of effort into the event and incorporated that into their vision for the future. We've hosted events on a smaller but similarly global scale with a view to heightening our profile and taking us places.

****

I don't know that a VEN club has won out regionally.

[Bakes]

Good Evening Guys.
                            It kind of hard to answer yes or no to that question. We hardly ever play Venezuela in football even though they are our closet neighbour. I remember in the early 70's Venzuela came to TT to play a couple goodwill matches. They sent university students thinking TT was a walkover. Steve David, Jimmy Springer and Buggy Haynes drop one set of goals in dey backside in the 3 games. Scores were 7-0, 6-0, something like that. They then invite TT for a return visit. TT went down and lost both games. I think was 3-1 and 2-0. This time the Venezuela use their pro. players. I must also note when the team came back they strike. They did not get their stipend. After that Jimmy Springer never kick a ball again.

Yes, Venezuela is or was the doormat of Conmebol, but TT always have time beating them. Ven. has always had a bona-fide pro-league. I think in the 50's Mathew Nunes and some other TT players did play pro ball in Ven. Their league always have players from Brazil, Argentina, Colombia etc. Ven. club has won the South American club champioships before. I think is FC Caracas. In the most recent edition of 4-2-4 magazine, The Ven. federation has restructured their league and added new clubs. They are now using the stadiums they built for the SA champiomships. They have money and they working hard to improve to go to the WC, especially after seeing their insignificant neighbor shine in Germant last year. It would be something else if TT and Ven have to fight out for the last spot for South Africa.

The 'neighbour' factor ... what would be more useful ... rejoicing in kicking Bajan arse repeatedly or exploiting ties with a neighbour that we have other ties with ... (albeit mostly flowing in one direction) ...

The 'scale' factor ... they were certainly attentive to that.

The 'physical plant' factor ... last nation to host the Copa America ... put a lot of effort into the event and incorporated that into their vision for the future. We've hosted events on a smaller but similarly global scale with a view to heightening our profile and taking us places.

****

I don't know that a VEN club has won out regionally.

Venezuela is a very apt comparison...regardless as to whether some think they're in direct competition with us or not.  From a footballing perspective they're minnows with no pedigree to speak of.  At least we have 1973 and 1989 to show for our efforts (yeah yeah...they're coming out of CONMEBOL blah blah blah).  To have a team come out of 'nowhere' like that and surpass us, it's helpful to take note, because again...it's a sobering statement as to just how much momentum we may have squandered...or at best, how little development has been sustained.

[Bakes]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.

Actually the most piopular sport in TT is casino gambling.
And it is a sport , they does show it on ESPN

Eh-eh pardner... de # 1 sport in Trinidad is dat shooting game wit de lil paint balls.

De tragedy is doh, dat while in other countries, dey take de lead out of de paint and use de lead-free paint, in Trinidad, dey take de paint out de lead and use de paint-free lead.

Slates you serious??  I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.

[FF]

Slates you serious??  I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.

Wat?

[dinho]

Something else that needs mentioning here:

Baseball -- not football -- is Venezuela's most popular sport.

I didn't even know football was T&T's most popular sport........shoot, i thought it was cricket.

Actually the most piopular sport in TT is casino gambling.
And it is a sport , they does show it on ESPN

Eh-eh pardner... de # 1 sport in Trinidad is dat shooting game wit de lil paint balls.

De tragedy is doh, dat while in other countries, dey take de lead out of de paint and use de lead-free paint, in Trinidad, dey take de paint out de lead and use de paint-free lead.

Slates you serious??  I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.

[asylumseeker]

Good Evening Guys.
                            It kind of hard to answer yes or no to that question. We hardly ever play Venezuela in football even though they are our closet neighbour. I remember in the early 70's Venzuela came to TT to play a couple goodwill matches. They sent university students thinking TT was a walkover. Steve David, Jimmy Springer and Buggy Haynes drop one set of goals in dey backside in the 3 games. Scores were 7-0, 6-0, something like that. They then invite TT for a return visit. TT went down and lost both games. I think was 3-1 and 2-0. This time the Venezuela use their pro. players. I must also note when the team came back they strike. They did not get their stipend. After that Jimmy Springer never kick a ball again.

Yes, Venezuela is or was the doormat of Conmebol, but TT always have time beating them. Ven. has always had a bona-fide pro-league. I think in the 50's Mathew Nunes and some other TT players did play pro ball in Ven. Their league always have players from Brazil, Argentina, Colombia etc. Ven. club has won the South American club champioships before. I think is FC Caracas. In the most recent edition of 4-2-4 magazine, The Ven. federation has restructured their league and added new clubs. They are now using the stadiums they built for the SA champiomships. They have money and they working hard to improve to go to the WC, especially after seeing their insignificant neighbor shine in Germant last year. It would be something else if TT and Ven have to fight out for the last spot for South Africa.

The 'neighbour' factor ... what would be more useful ... rejoicing in kicking Bajan arse repeatedly or exploiting ties with a neighbour that we have other ties with ... (albeit mostly flowing in one direction) ...

The 'scale' factor ... they were certainly attentive to that.

The 'physical plant' factor ... last nation to host the Copa America ... put a lot of effort into the event and incorporated that into their vision for the future. We've hosted events on a smaller but similarly global scale with a view to heightening our profile and taking us places.

****

I don't know that a VEN club has won out regionally.

Venezuela is a very apt comparison...regardless as to whether some think they're in direct competition with us or not.  From a footballing perspective they're minnows with no pedigree to speak of.  At least we have 1973 and 1989 to show for our efforts (yeah yeah...they're coming out of CONMEBOL blah blah blah).  To have a team come out of 'nowhere' like that and surpass us, it's helpful to take note, because again...it's a sobering statement as to just how much momentum we may have squandered...or at best, how little development has been sustained.

Bakes, yuh cooking wid gas!!! I was gehhin de impression that the gathering was waiting on a Belizean or Nicaraguan football ascendancy before grasping the fullness.

[WestCoast]

Eh-eh pardner... de # 1 sport in Trinidad is dat shooting game wit de lil paint balls.
De tragedy is doh, dat while in other countries, dey take de lead out of de paint and use de lead-free paint, in Trinidad, dey take de paint out de lead and use de paint-free lead.

Slates you serious??  I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.

who risk what?
eh?
oh oh
 

[dinho]

but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..

one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..

What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??

I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..

none of these are true about venezuela..

[Filho]

if Zeppo is trying to make an inference about the level of funding the sports receive in their individual countries, or the level of fan support, or political support, or the size of the playing population he'd do better than state that baseball is the #1 sport. I can't even infer whether he is saying football is the #2 sport or the #5.  What does a blanket statement about relative popularity tell us me about anything? Nada. I could make some broad assumptions, and infer something or the other..but then I wouldn't be sure what inference to choose..so i simply ask for an elaboration.

I'm sure he'd do much better than state what he did if he gave it half as much thought as you just did.  I think it's relatively easy to derive the inference I did (it's my inference...for all I know I'm way off base as to what he meant), and I know all too well how a simple throw 'way comment can spawn over-analysis ad nauseaum.

At any rate, I'm sure Zeppo can come back and clarify his comments if he so chooses.

Bakes..it really doesn't matter. I really didn't give it that much thought until you decided to defend his comment, which is surprising if you believe it was just a throw away comment. U took my 'question' far to literally -  I fully knew what he could be possibly inferring. The difference is I figured there were a few of likely inferences all of which I see as either off the mark or irrelevant. I was interested in seeing whether Zeppo would respond and clarify the point he was trying to make or if, as i suspect, he was just taking a tongue in cheek dig. But the truth is, I never expected to revisit the post.

[Bakes]

Slates you serious??  I surprise a) that paintball big in TnT; b) that dem idiots risking people life so.

Wat?

Inside joke wid Slates....doh study it.

[Bakes]

Bakes..it really doesn't matter. I really didn't give it that much thought until you decided to defend his comment, which is surprising if you believe it was just a throw away comment. U took my 'question' far to literally -  I fully knew what he could be possibly inferring. The difference is I figured there were a few of likely inferences all of which I see as either off the mark or irrelevant. I was interested in seeing whether Zeppo would respond and clarify the point he was trying to make or if, as i suspect, he was just taking a tongue in cheek dig. But the truth is, I never expected to revisit the post.

You said you didn't see the relevance of the post...

If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?


The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.

I was showing where the relevance may have laid.  You say I was defending his post.  Okay.

[Bakes]

but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..

one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..

What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??

I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..

none of these are true about venezuela..

How many Venezuelan players plying their trade professionally in the top European leagues?

[dinho]

but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..

one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..

What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??

I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..

none of these are true about venezuela..

How many Venezuelan players plying their trade professionally in the top European leagues?

yuh make meh run to wikipedia to check...

1    GK    Renny Vega    4 July 1979    20    0    Flag of Turkey Bursaspor
2    DF    Luis Vallenilla    13 March 1974    70    1    Flag of Cyprus Nea Salamis
3    DF    José Manuel Rey    20 May 1975    81    6    Flag of Cyprus AEK Larnaca
6    DF    Alejandro Cichero    24 April 1977    40    1    Flag of Bulgaria PFC Litex
7    FW    José Torrealba    13 June 1980    12    3    Flag of Germany Arminia Bielefeld
11    MF    Ricardo David Páez    9 February 1979    54    6    Flag of Greece Veria FC
15    FW    Fernando de Ornelas    29 July 1976    22    5    Flag of Norway Odd Grenland B.K.
16    MF    Edder Pérez    3 July 1983          Flag of Portugal Maritimo
18    FW    Juan Arango    16 May 1980    58    23    Flag of Spain RCD Mallorca
20    DF    Héctor González    4 November 1977    45    4    Flag of Cyprus AEK Larnaca
21    DF    Andrés Rouga    2 March 1982    16    0    Flag of Cyprus Alki Larnaca


what is the correlation with TT football that i am missing?

[Bakes]

but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..

one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..

What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??

I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..

none of these are true about venezuela..

How many Venezuelan players plying their trade professionally in the top European leagues?

yuh make meh run to wikipedia to check...


18    FW    Juan Arango    16 May 1980    58    23    Flag of Spain RCD Mallorca
what is the correlation with TT football that i am missing?

So there is one unknown player playing in one of Europe's top league...now compare that to  players from "Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia" and see how many you find.  Maybe then you'll understand why comparing Venezuelan football from football from these countries...perennial contenders in their own Conferences, falls apart.

[Zeppo]

What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??

Good question.

I was initially wondering the same thing since Venezuela, being a CONMEBOL nation, is not in direct competition with T&T. The only scenario in which they could be would be if the two countries faced off in the playoffs for a 2010 World Cup spot.

The CONCACAF  up and comers that you have to look out for are Honduras, Panama (another baseball country) and even Haiti.

[dinho]

but the point is that the same can be said of any team in any confederation that has shown remarkable progress in recent times..

one could point to the example of Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia or even Honduras/Cuba/Haiti in CONCACAF to try to juxtapose their recent forward progress with our stagnancy..

What we trying to understand is... Why Venezuela??

I would think if we are saying another country is leaving us in the dust, then they either have to be (a) competing with us in our confederation or (b) their circumstances surrounding their football administration, setup or culture have should mirror ours..

none of these are true about venezuela..

How many Venezuelan players plying their trade professionally in the top European leagues?

yuh make meh run to wikipedia to check...


18    FW    Juan Arango    16 May 1980    58    23    Flag of Spain RCD Mallorca
what is the correlation with TT football that i am missing?

So there is one unknown player playing in one of Europe's top league...now compare that to  players from "Ivory coast/Senegal in CAN, Turkey in UEFA, China/Japan in Asia" and see how many you find.  Maybe then you'll understand why comparing Venezuelan football from football from these countries...perennial contenders in their own Conferences, falls apart.

The influx of Senegalese players into europe was accelerated after their good showing at WC2002.. Similarly, ivory coast players becoming prominent in europe was very recent..

Turkish players were not pronounced prior to 2000, and similarly chinese/japanese players were virtual nobodys in global football before significant investment and development programs improved the level of their football..

None of these countries were perreniel contenders in their own confederations until relatively recent times..

You are trying to discredit my comparison of Venezuela with progressing teams from other confederations but you still ent explain to me how Venezuela compares with Trinidad... In any case, even if you contend Venezuela fields mostly local based players, Trinidad has most of its best players in European leagues so there is not common ground here..

Like i said, it could be me, i might be missing something here...

[Bakes]

The influx of Senegalese players into europe was accelerated after their good showing at WC2002.. Similarly, ivory coast players becoming prominent in europe was very recent..

Really...and all those Senegalese players in Le Championnat before then (just to name one)...or does the French league not count?

Turkish players were not pronounced prior to 2000, and similarly chinese/japanese players were virtual nobodys in global football before significant investment and development programs improved the level of their football..

None of these countries were perreniel contenders in their own confederations until relatively recent times..

You'd have to define "recent" times because they've all been contenders going back at least the last three Cups.

You are trying to discredit my comparison of Venezuela with progressing teams from other confederations but you still ent explain to me how Venezuela compares with Trinidad... In any case, even if you contend Venezuela fields mostly local based players, Trinidad has most of its best players in European leagues so there is not common ground here..

Like i said, it could be me, i might be missing something here...

The rationale for comparing Venezuela has already been sufficiently laid out by both Asylumseeker and myself, if you don't get it then you'll never get it and we could just leave if off there.

[dinho]

The influx of Senegalese players into europe was accelerated after their good showing at WC2002.. Similarly, ivory coast players becoming prominent in europe was very recent..

Really...and all those Senegalese players in Le Championnat before then (just to name one)...or does the French league not count?

Turkish players were not pronounced prior to 2000, and similarly chinese/japanese players were virtual nobodys in global football before significant investment and development programs improved the level of their football..

None of these countries were perreniel contenders in their own confederations until relatively recent times..

You'd have to define "recent" times because they've all been contenders going back at least the last three Cups.

You are trying to discredit my comparison of Venezuela with progressing teams from other confederations but you still ent explain to me how Venezuela compares with Trinidad... In any case, even if you contend Venezuela fields mostly local based players, Trinidad has most of its best players in European leagues so there is not common ground here..

Like i said, it could be me, i might be missing something here...

The rationale for comparing Venezuela has already been sufficiently laid out by both Asylumseeker and myself, if you don't get it then you'll never get it and we could just leave if off there.

so where do we draw the line?

you cited juan arango at mallorca as the only player playing in a top european league, yet conveniently left out the players in the german, portuguese and turkish leagues.. but now you saying the french league counts 

if you find those countries i call dont work we could pull some other examples.. i guess by your and asylumseeker's rationale it would be fair to say that uzbekistan and iraq leaving us in the dust too, because they making some significant strides in their football right? you do know they were minnows who started making waves in the football world in recent times..

you really not making any sense because on the one hand, you fighting a point about venezuela having little overseas player presence however trinidad is the direct opposite based on having one of the biggest overseas presences in the UK leagues.. This equals to no comparison with venezuela..

just to recap, here's what you said..

Venezuela is a very apt comparison...regardless as to whether some think they're in direct competition with us or not.  From a footballing perspective they're minnows with no pedigree to speak of.  At least we have 1973 and 1989 to show for our efforts (yeah yeah...they're coming out of CONMEBOL blah blah blah).  To have a team come out of 'nowhere' like that and surpass us, it's helpful to take note, because again...it's a sobering statement as to just how much momentum we may have squandered...or at best, how little development has been sustained.

so because they are minnows who have had good recent results, one of you please explain how that means they are surpassing us?

This thread would have made sense if the title was "Haiti could leave us in the dust".

i don't know why asylumseeker and yourself cant come clean and admit that this comparison of venezuela to trinidad has much more to do with the fact that they are our close geographical neighbors, and little to do with anything remotely football related... and after the fact yuh realize it really have no basis for that comparison at all...

you're right.. i'll probably never get it..

[Bakes]

so where do we draw the line?

you cited juan arango at mallorca as the only player playing in a top european league, yet conveniently left out the players in the german, portuguese and turkish leagues.. but now you saying the french league counts 

There was nothing 'convenient' about the omission at all, but it's interesting to see the paucity of your analysis on display.  If anything Arminia Bielefeld was the only other "top league" European club on your list.  None of the others are in their respective First Divisions.  If you can argue otherwise then bring it, I'll gladly make room for the two or three other players if you can find them.

if you find those countries i call dont work we could pull some other examples.. i guess by your and asylumseeker's rationale it would be fair to say that uzbekistan and iraq leaving us in the dust too, because they making some significant strides in their football right? you do know they were minnows who started making waves in the football world in recent times..

How many f**king international pro's do Uzbekistan and Iraq have?  Anybody even making the claim other than your yourself apparently...that Uzbekis-facking-stan and Iraq having surpassed TnT football??  What facking waves are they making?? Iraq winning the Asian Cup is any kinda international wave?

you really not making any sense because on the one hand, you fighting a point about venezuela having little overseas player presence however trinidad is the direct opposite based on having one of the biggest overseas presences in the UK leagues.. This equals to no comparison with venezuela..  just to recap, here's what you said..

Venezuela is a very apt comparison...regardless as to whether some think they're in direct competition with us or not.  From a footballing perspective they're minnows with no pedigree to speak of.  At least we have 1973 and 1989 to show for our efforts (yeah yeah...they're coming out of CONMEBOL blah blah blah).  To have a team come out of 'nowhere' like that and surpass us, it's helpful to take note, because again...it's a sobering statement as to just how much momentum we may have squandered...or at best, how little development has been sustained.

so because they are minnows who have had good recent results, one of you please explain how that means they are surpassing us?

Follow closely ...let me know if you need connect-a-dots: 

Go back to my first post in this thread and you'll see that I said that I don't believe in the theory that Venezuela has surpassed us.  However, IF that is the case, then that in fact would be a very sobering reality for TnT football.  The very fact AND I MADE MENTION OF THIS...typing it big so that yuh can't miss it this time...the very fact that they HAVE NO PEDIGREE to speak of...including this lack of an international presence, little/no impact by their professionals on the international game (this is the point of getting you to look up their overseas pros...IMPACT), when you compare that the the international impact that TnT has had on football, not just with our overseas pros, but our international showing the past 35 yrs.  This glaring juxtaposition...is what is alarming IF indeed Venezuela has surpassed us.  I have little patience for people who want to petulantly and insipidly play stupid.  The rationale has been laid before you, but you insist the comparison is faulty and so you decline to follow the obvious logic.

This thread would have made sense if the title was "Haiti could leave us in the dust".

i don't know why asylumseeker and yourself cant come clean and admit that this comparison of venezuela to trinidad has much more to do with the fact that they are our close geographical neighbors, and little to do with anything remotely football related... and after the fact yuh realize it really have no basis for that comparison at all...

you're right.. i'll probably never get it..

The fact that the comparison was in part based on Geography was already admitted to in Asylumseekers "neighbour factor" statement above.  We are making the comparison because from a footballing standpoint Venezuela, though situated in South America (much like Guyana and Suriname), and though a part of CONMEBOL, is very much a 'regional' country.  It is for this reason there has been such extensive ties between Venezuela and the Caribbean, compared to say Colombia and the Caribbean, which is essentially none.  From a regional standpoint, Trinidad and Jamaica have been the traditional regional powers, Trinidad perhaps even moreso than Jamaica, France 98 notwithstanding.  So for a 'regional' team like Venezuela to have surpassed us (if the opinions in favor of such a theory are to be believed) then it just goes to show either the pace at which Trinidad is dropping, or the severe lack of development of TnT ball.

I can't explain it in any simpler terms than that.

[Filho]

You said you didn't see the relevance of the post...

Nope..I think that saying that baseball being more popular than football is irrelevant. More importantly, it doesn't say anything about football in Venezuela and much less so T&T. I could say football is more popular than rugby in the England. What does that tell you about Rugby in England? Or baseball is more popular than baskeball in the US? yep..and still..I've got no further insight about basketball in the US

If we claim Venezuela is so much better than us (which I'm not buying for one minute) and they don't even fart on football half as much...what does that say for the state of our affairs?

U see the part in bold. That is what I meant earlier by needing to elaborate. For there to be any relevance to me, u have to make that assumption. Thing is, that assumption is totally untrue. More people watch and play the sport in Venezuela than in T&T. The nation puts more resources into developing the game at all levels. Now, football may be more popular in T&T than Venezuela in terms of  % of the population who say it is their favorite sport...but again that is irrelevant given the sheer size of venezuela rel. to T&T. In absolute terms, the sport is more popular in Venezuela. More poeple watch, play and support the game. And that matters more than rlative popularity (just as is the case in the US). That is why I say a blanket statement about popularity relative to baseball is irrelevant. It says nothing unless you make the assumption you're making, which happens to be wrong.

The inference really isn't that hard to draw there Filho.

hey..we in 2 different corners on this one and we've been here before. always interested in your point of view. peace bredda.

 

[Filho]

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing the development of football in Venezuela to T&T. Why the hell not? It's a simple discussion. Even if you think we'll never play Venezuela..ever..they may serve as a barometer of how other teams around the world and indeed in our region are developing. In any case, we could meet them in a Wc play-off. Possible. besides, we've had discusisons about football in Brazil compared to T&T, why not Venezuela

A few thoughts on what has been discussed...

The number of European based pros isn't always a barometer of success given the strength of Mexico and Costa Rica in our federation. Venezuela can play top class football without needing to have star names littered throughout Europe

All things being equal..venezuela is supposed to improve more rapidly than T&T. Their best club teams get to play in Copa Libertadores and Copa Sudamericana against the best teams in Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Mexico..etc. And they're guaranteed a few first round games..Unlike our teams that might get a home and away against a Costa Rican, MLS or Mexican team if they reach far enough.

Venezuela is guaranteed to play teams like Brazil and Argentina twice during WC qualifiers. And could bounce them up in the Copa America too. So every 2 to 4 years the Venezuelan national team guaranteed to meet teams like Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay, Ecuador..multiple times (at least twice each). And I talking about competitive full out games. Compare that to who T&T plays regulalrly.

To me..that level of competition is invaluable. It does not pay off overnight, but over the decades, it is telling. Imagine T&T knowing we will def. play Brazil a good 2, 3, maybe 4 times every few years. Argentina..Uruguay..the same etc

It should really make a huge difference...all things being equal