April 29, 2024, 12:28:15 AM

Author Topic: Ethanol in the US / Bio-Fuels  (Read 3934 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dcs

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5032
  • T&T 4 COP
    • View Profile
    • Warrior Nation
Ethanol in the US / Bio-Fuels
« on: March 11, 2007, 11:52:12 PM »
Trinidad Guardian
Thursday 8th March, 2007
Brazil, US to discuss an ‘Opec’ for ethanol


The US, which produces mainly corn-based ethanol, just recently pulled ahead of Brazil, which uses sugarcane, as the world’s largest producer of the bio-fuel. The two countries produce 72 per cent of the world’s ethanol.

Rio de Janeiro—Brazil’s home-grown fuel independence is set to be a cornerstone of discussions starting Friday when US President George Walker Bush visits Brazil. Mr Bush and his Brazilian counterpart Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva are expected to sign off on the joint creation of an “Opec” for ethanol, the bio-fuel that has freed Brazil from dependence on imported resources.

The proposed association—to be run along the lines of the oil cartel, Organisation for Petroleum Exporting Countries—is to be the main topic of talks in Sao Paulo, where Mr Bush is beginning a six-day tour of Latin America.

For both leaders, the prospect of expanded ethanol use is politically important for Mr Lula because of the leverage it would give him over the growing hegemony of oil-rich Venezuela, and for Mr Bush as an image correction of his anti-Kyoto policies.

The strategic association would provide for co-operation in bio-fuels in the private sector and aim to exploit third markets, starting with those in Central America.

The long-term goal is to turn ethanol into a global commodity.

The US, which produces mainly corn-based ethanol, just recently pulled ahead of Brazil, which uses sugarcane, as the world’s largest producer of the bio-fuel. The two countries produce 72 per cent of the world’s ethanol.

The joint enterprise represents an unexpected “prize” for a programme that was launched in 1975 with no further ambitions than to reduce Brazilian dependence on imported oil.

At that time, when he took over Brazil’s presidency during a military dictatorship, Ernesto Geisel saw the so-called “Brazilian economic miracle” being buried by the world oil crisis. At that time, Brazil imported more than half the oil it needed.

The programme was initially a success, but then got to the verge of collapse—the engines of cars manufactured in the country showed signs of rapid corrosion due to the use of anhydrous alcohol—and the supply of the product was drastically reduced with no prior notice due to the rise in the international price of sugar.

Further, fiscal incentives granted by the government to alcohol producers favoured mainly the large estates and encouraged large landowners to abandon food crops to cultivate sugarcane.

Despite the problems and the growing distrust of consumers, the programme underwent adaptations which nowadays include the obligatory use of a proportion of ethanol mixed with the petrol that is sold in Brazil. New engines were developed to handle the fuel.

According to physicist and former minister of science and technology Jose Goldemberg, if the South American country had not adopted such measures, it would consume double the amount of gasoline it does today.

With the current production of close to 12 billion litres of ethanol a year, Brazil gives out ten million tonnes of carbon less than it could be giving out. That reduction corresponds to 15 per cent of the country’s carbon emissions,” Mr Goldemberg said.

Three decades after it was launched, the Alcohol Programme has become a star at a time when energy and environmental protection have become central worries for developed countries.
©2005-2006 Trinidad Publishing Company Limited

Offline WestCoast

  • The obvious is that which is never seen until someone expresses it simply
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 16066
  • "Let We Do What We Normally Does" :)
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2007, 04:34:37 AM »
This is a very good thing
it might mean dat people could go for cane(<- click) again ;)
TnT should seriously investigate this in a big way
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil
come on lets get driving wid ethanol.

here is a very interesting article
Ethanol Fuel More Advantageous Than Thought

and some time in the future we will have this car, and here also, looks like it is not just blowing hot air. ;D ;D
« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 04:44:33 AM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline Feliziano

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 3146
  • www.TheWarriorNation.com
    • View Profile
    • The Warrior Nation
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2007, 04:49:10 AM »
ah think that ethanol ent go be really worth the time in the US, unless they get better at using cellulose material instead
thers lots of reasons why, so heres a few:
costly to make
will affect the food supply therefore higher food prices
less octane therfore less power
will need to use more to go same distance as a tank of gas

it have more but ah cant remeber right now  ;)
Feliz
Warrior Nation Secretary & Membership Officer
http://www.TheWarriorNation.com

Offline Jah Gol

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 8493
  • Ronaldinho is the best player of our era
    • View Profile
    • The Ministry of Noise
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2007, 05:19:30 AM »
ah think that ethanol ent go be really worth the time in the US, unless they get better at using cellulose material instead
thers lots of reasons why, so heres a few:
costly to make
will affect the food supply therefore higher food prices
less octane therfore less power
will need to use more to go same distance as a tank of gas

it have more but ah cant remeber right now  ;)

It is partly responsible for the increase in the price of wheat.

Offline Organic

  • Bamboo # 5
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5573
  • Politics- 90% Personality 10% Principle
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2007, 07:40:44 AM »
We should also look into pathnering with sao paulo....they are the world leaders in recycling. they have developed new technologies to reuse products that have been difficult to seperate. hope this is a serious move and not just lip servicce.
 we should excel in bio fuels production especially witht he quantitiy of shit we politicans does produce.
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline dcs

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5032
  • T&T 4 COP
    • View Profile
    • Warrior Nation
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2007, 10:55:38 AM »

Is it mostly the mid-west that using this ethanol?

And if the 10-90 (ethanol-gasoline) mixture cud run in regular cars how come it not available...or doesn't seem like that it is going to be used anytime soon.  It will make it more expensive?

Offline JDB

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4607
  • Red, White and Black till death
    • View Profile
    • We Reach
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2007, 11:01:58 AM »
At the end of the day when you factor in the cost of technology and infrastructure "gas" will always be cheaper.

Any competeing source will be more expensive but it cannot be a financial argument. This is one of thise times when the powers that be have to get their ass in gear and make quicker strides at making th etransition away from fossil fuels.

As for TnT our solid waste situation is frightening. We needed to start recycling years ago but everything is about maintaining th estauts quo. The governement will not be proactive about th ethings athat will improve quality of life in the long term.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2007, 11:04:03 AM by JDB »
THE WARRIORS WILL NOT BE DENIED.

Offline Organic

  • Bamboo # 5
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5573
  • Politics- 90% Personality 10% Principle
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2007, 11:07:08 AM »

Is it mostly the mid-west that using this ethanol?

And if the 10-90 (ethanol-gasoline) mixture cud run in regular cars how come it not available...or doesn't seem like that it is going to be used anytime soon.  It will make it more expensive?
At the end of the day when you factor in the cost of technology and infrastructure "gas" will always be cheaper.

Any competeing source will be more expensive but it cannot be a financial argument. This is one of thise times when the powers that be have to get their ass in gear and make quicker strides at making th etransition away from fossil fuels.

As for TnT our solid waste situation is frightening. We needed to start recycling years ago but everything is about maintaining th estauts quo. The governement will not be proactive about th ethings athat will improve quality of life in the long term.
not necesarilly
in canada 2 gas station- sunoco and pioneer use gas with the 10% ethanol and thier gas prices are acutlaly LOWER than esso and shell and all the other bigger names.

dcs that fuel with 10% ethanol has been availbel a while now.
also....in trinidad thier grade of gas is better than most pleaces in the us.
thier super is 92
and premium is 95.
in canada the highest grade at most pumps or all i have seeen is 94. and in the USA while i lived there highest i saw as a rule was 92. with 84 the lowest.

btw trinidad gas is very very very cheap.
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline Dutty

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 9578
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 11:57:04 AM »
Hoe, ah tink what JDB referrin to is the overall cost of getting crude out of the ground, refined and the logistics of getting it delivered to your neighbourhood gas station is cheaper than growing the sugar cane or wheat or whutever, refining it and getting to an ethanol only station

dem oil fellahs will do they damndest to make sure it have no cheaper alternative....see the oil company talking points that feliziano posted above

In a perfect world hydrogen would be the best as it burns zero emissions...but again 'bigoilco' will ensure them delivery systems doh take root

as for the 92 octane in de u.s....dat determined by state, you can get sunoco 94 out west
There are even stations in nevada close to race tracks that have 104 octane at the pump.
Little known fact: The online transportation medium called Uber was pioneered in Trinidad & Tobago in the 1960's. It was originally called pullin bull.

Offline dcs

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5032
  • T&T 4 COP
    • View Profile
    • Warrior Nation
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 12:25:19 PM »

that octane thing is not just for knocking?

Offline Dutty

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 9578
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2007, 12:42:47 PM »

that octane thing is not just for knocking?

nah!! dais for knockin on ole car only..when dey start to lose compression yuh switch to ah higher octane to compensate

most modern cars will run smood on 84 or 87 octane

high performance cars will prefer to drink the high octance juice for better performance...but can run on the 'cheap' stuff if yuh cyah find nuttn else
de computer does adjust and retard the timing..= no knock or ping
Little known fact: The online transportation medium called Uber was pioneered in Trinidad & Tobago in the 1960's. It was originally called pullin bull.

Offline Organic

  • Bamboo # 5
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5573
  • Politics- 90% Personality 10% Principle
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2007, 12:52:53 PM »
Hoe, ah tink what JDB referrin to is the overall cost of getting crude out of the ground, refined and the logistics of getting it delivered to your neighbourhood gas station is cheaper than growing the sugar cane or wheat or whutever, refining it and getting to an ethanol only station

dem oil fellahs will do they damndest to make sure it have no cheaper alternative....see the oil company talking points that feliziano posted above

In a perfect world hydrogen would be the best as it burns zero emissions...but again 'bigoilco' will ensure them delivery systems doh take root

as for the 92 octane in de u.s....dat determined by state, you can get sunoco 94 out west
There are even stations in nevada close to race tracks that have 104 octane at the pump.
ok man. i hear you.
never been out west so i dont know about 104 or racing..what kind car??lol
as for ethanol and not getting to the pumps...its not all that expensive. oil industry alreadyw ell established so the price of getting thier product to the pumps will be cheaper. since ethanol-auto industry is new maybe that is why the costs so high. i hadda check the cost per liter of ethanol.

most cars can run on 84. i an alld oes use that ti cheap..how ever i only by at sunoco or pioneer ah ahdda drive...so i have to be practical if they had alternatives i woula be using them.

byw remeber the electtic car they had developed in the 80's or 90's out west ind e states...
i read an article thats aid it was a sucess bu big oil rpessured the manufactuerer to stop making them.


trini now built  apaper recycleing center in malabar aria..i eh know where exaclty they get thier material frm if is just commmercial industires. as i said ealier sao paulo is a leader in recycling technology we need to form a patnhership with them. de country small....
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline ribbit

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4294
  • T & T We Want A Goal !
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2007, 01:09:45 PM »
We should also look into pathnering with sao paulo....they are the world leaders in recycling. they have developed new technologies to reuse products that have been difficult to seperate. hope this is a serious move and not just lip servicce.
 we should excel in bio fuels production especially witht he quantitiy of shit we politicans does produce.


mo, usa only moving in to prevent china from moving in. china running around the globe looking for all kind of fuel.

Offline Organic

  • Bamboo # 5
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5573
  • Politics- 90% Personality 10% Principle
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2007, 01:35:45 PM »
We should also look into pathnering with sao paulo....they are the world leaders in recycling. they have developed new technologies to reuse products that have been difficult to seperate. hope this is a serious move and not just lip servicce.
 we should excel in bio fuels production especially witht he quantitiy of shit we politicans does produce.


mo, usa only moving in to prevent china from moving in. china running around the globe looking for all kind of fuel.
i meant trini ribbit  :)
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline JDB

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4607
  • Red, White and Black till death
    • View Profile
    • We Reach
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2007, 01:44:37 PM »
Hoe, ah tink what JDB referrin to is the overall cost of getting crude out of the ground, refined and the logistics of getting it delivered to your neighbourhood gas station is cheaper than growing the sugar cane or wheat or whutever, refining it and getting to an ethanol only station

dem oil fellahs will do they damndest to make sure it have no cheaper alternative....see the oil company talking points that feliziano posted above

In a perfect world hydrogen would be the best as it burns zero emissions...but again 'bigoilco' will ensure them delivery systems doh take root

as for the 92 octane in de u.s....dat determined by state, you can get sunoco 94 out west
There are even stations in nevada close to race tracks that have 104 octane at the pump.

Thanks Dutty that is what I was referring to.

There is a big difference between using 10% in existing combustion engines and making the transition to a non fossil fuel way of life.

It will especially be hard in the US where fuel consumption drives the economy and big cars and high hp drive the automotive industry.

Hybrids will help but I don't see small cars becomeing a way of life like they are in Europe.
THE WARRIORS WILL NOT BE DENIED.

Offline ribbit

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4294
  • T & T We Want A Goal !
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2007, 04:18:02 PM »
We should also look into pathnering with sao paulo....they are the world leaders in recycling. they have developed new technologies to reuse products that have been difficult to seperate. hope this is a serious move and not just lip servicce.
 we should excel in bio fuels production especially witht he quantitiy of shit we politicans does produce.


mo, usa only moving in to prevent china from moving in. china running around the globe looking for all kind of fuel.
i meant trini ribbit  :)

oho - i see your post now. compared to the smelter, how big this project would be? it cyah be that big - but again alcoa stuffing money into the right pockets to make that happen.

Offline Organic

  • Bamboo # 5
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5573
  • Politics- 90% Personality 10% Principle
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2007, 04:46:27 PM »
We should also look into pathnering with sao paulo....they are the world leaders in recycling. they have developed new technologies to reuse products that have been difficult to seperate. hope this is a serious move and not just lip servicce.
 we should excel in bio fuels production especially witht he quantitiy of shit we politicans does produce.


mo, usa only moving in to prevent china from moving in. china running around the globe looking for all kind of fuel.
i meant trini ribbit  :)

oho - i see your post now. compared to the smelter, how big this project would be? it cyah be that big - but again alcoa stuffing money into the right pockets to make that happen.
no clue..doubt it will be as much.
the operatign cost for a smelter is ridiculous.
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline Bitter

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 9689
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2007, 06:08:58 PM »
2 things
I think that Bio fuel can only really be viable in a country that can grow enough material to refine. As it ts now, it's more expensive than Oil and is causing problems with food-prices. Mexico is reporting troubles due to the rising price of Corn. Of Course, the rising cost of Oil also affects food prices indirectly. We'll see how it goes.

NPR has a very good interview posted about the various methods and projects around to produce various bio-fuels http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7806281

As for the smelter business. Think about these little tidbits
1. Aluminium is the most abundant metallic element in Earth's crust
2. It is the 2nd most refined metal behind Iron
3. We use over 80,000,000,000 aluminum soda cans every year.
4. 350,000 aluminum cans are produced every minute
5. Smelters also process recycled aluminum. Which can be recycled indefinitely.

There is BIG money in smelting. Regardless of the political/envronmental issues. These smelters will not be vanity projects - at least not to Alcoa.

Bitter is a supercalifragilistic tic-tac-pro

Offline Organic

  • Bamboo # 5
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5573
  • Politics- 90% Personality 10% Principle
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2007, 06:21:48 PM »
2 things
I think that Bio fuel can only really be viable in a country that can grow enough material to refine. As it ts now, it's more expensive than Oil and is causing problems with food-prices. Mexico is reporting troubles due to the rising price of Corn. Of Course, the rising cost of Oil also affects food prices indirectly. We'll see how it goes.

NPR has a very good interview posted about the various methods and projects around to produce various bio-fuels http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7806281

As for the smelter business. Think about these little tidbits
1. Aluminium is the most abundant metallic element in Earth's crust
2. It is the 2nd most refined metal behind Iron
3. We use over 80,000,000,000 aluminum soda cans every year.
4. 350,000 aluminum cans are produced every minute
5. Smelters also process recycled aluminum. Which can be recycled indefinitely.

There is BIG money in smelting. Regardless of the political/envronmental issues. These smelters will not be vanity projects - at least not to Alcoa.


u missing a big big part of it man.
go and find out how much energy it takes to refine one ton of aluminum. hence the need to either situate a smelter to a plentifuk(and knowing how dotish manning and dem is ah ridicluousl y cheap) source of energy. or close to the source.

also.....find out the projected oil and natural gas reserve left in trinidad and then tell meh how good that plan really seems?
smart countries balancing new industrial projects with renewable endaours like toursim, etc.
Perhaps the epitome of a Trinidadian is the child in the third row class with a dark skin and crinkly plaits who looks at you out of decidedly Chinese eyes and announces herself as Jacqueline Maharaj.- Merle Hodge

Offline dcs

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5032
  • T&T 4 COP
    • View Profile
    • Warrior Nation
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2007, 11:15:42 PM »

Somehow the environment is not part of 2020...puzzling considering that is exactly what developed countries are protecting more and more.

i wonder if we will be able to complete the rail before de bubble buss.

Offline Jah Gol

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 8493
  • Ronaldinho is the best player of our era
    • View Profile
    • The Ministry of Noise
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2007, 05:42:53 AM »
BP spends less than 8% of its R&D budget on alternative energy resources.

Offline lickslikefire

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 1479
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2007, 07:41:04 AM »
Anybody saw the movie "Who killed the electric car?"

Easily one of the best documentaries I've seen.  A must see IMO :beermug:

Offline lickslikefire

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 1479
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2007, 07:45:16 AM »
Good read on oil companies running the world:

http://www.stp.uh.edu/vol66/27/opinion/oped-index.html

Offline Bitter

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 9689
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2007, 02:43:05 PM »
2 things
I think that Bio fuel can only really be viable in a country that can grow enough material to refine. As it ts now, it's more expensive than Oil and is causing problems with food-prices. Mexico is reporting troubles due to the rising price of Corn. Of Course, the rising cost of Oil also affects food prices indirectly. We'll see how it goes.

NPR has a very good interview posted about the various methods and projects around to produce various bio-fuels http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7806281

As for the smelter business. Think about these little tidbits
1. Aluminium is the most abundant metallic element in Earth's crust
2. It is the 2nd most refined metal behind Iron
3. We use over 80,000,000,000 aluminum soda cans every year.
4. 350,000 aluminum cans are produced every minute
5. Smelters also process recycled aluminum. Which can be recycled indefinitely.

There is BIG money in smelting. Regardless of the political/envronmental issues. These smelters will not be vanity projects - at least not to Alcoa.


u missing a big big part of it man.
go and find out how much energy it takes to refine one ton of aluminum. hence the need to either situate a smelter to a plentif**k(and knowing how dotish manning and dem is ah ridicluousl y cheap) source of energy. or close to the source.

also.....find out the projected oil and natural gas reserve left in trinidad and then tell meh how good that plan really seems?
smart countries balancing new industrial projects with renewable endaours like toursim, etc.
I eh saying no
I just saying that is not like Alcoa eh do the maths on that. A smelter is almost a sure thing.
Bitter is a supercalifragilistic tic-tac-pro

Offline Trini Madness

  • Heart....miles and miles of heart
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 2271
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2007, 05:48:45 PM »
i've heard that corn ethanol is just like gasoline nothing worse nothing better just the same. now for the sugar ethanol i've heard that its 8 times better than regular gasoline. trinidad should get into this, but one thing about the sugar ethanol is we're gonna have to get different cars that can take sugar ethanol. in brasil they only have certain cars that can take sugar ethanol and there arent many around according to one of my friends.
A dream you don't fight for will haunt you for the rest of your life.

Offline E-man

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *
  • Posts: 8711
  • Support all Warriors. Red, White and Blacklisted.
    • View Profile
    • T&T Football History
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2007, 06:05:07 PM »
i've heard that corn ethanol is just like gasoline nothing worse nothing better just the same. now for the sugar ethanol i've heard that its 8 times better than regular gasoline. trinidad should get into this, but one thing about the sugar ethanol is we're gonna have to get different cars that can take sugar ethanol. in brasil they only have certain cars that can take sugar ethanol and there arent many around according to one of my friends.

Check here on some specifics between producing ethanol from corn or sugar:

http://www.energybulletin.net/21064.html

Offline ribbit

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4294
  • T & T We Want A Goal !
    • View Profile
Re: Bio-Fuels
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2007, 03:23:55 PM »
i've heard that corn ethanol is just like gasoline nothing worse nothing better just the same. now for the sugar ethanol i've heard that its 8 times better than regular gasoline. trinidad should get into this, but one thing about the sugar ethanol is we're gonna have to get different cars that can take sugar ethanol. in brasil they only have certain cars that can take sugar ethanol and there arent many around according to one of my friends.

Check here on some specifics between producing ethanol from corn or sugar:

http://www.energybulletin.net/21064.html


nice read, e-man. here are two other reads about other tradeoffs between ethanol and gasoline:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003612429_ethanol11.html

http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/12/news/economy/gas_prices/?postversion=2007031215
-- adding ethanol to gasoline makes it 4 to 8% less efficient

Offline Jah Gol

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 8493
  • Ronaldinho is the best player of our era
    • View Profile
    • The Ministry of Noise
Ethanol in the US
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2007, 07:58:21 AM »
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/papers/Biofuels/NRRethanol.2005.pdf

This is an interesting report on the 'omitted' costs of production of bio-feuls in the US.

Offline pecan

  • Steups ...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 6855
  • Billy Goats Gruff
    • View Profile
Re: Ethanol in the US
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2007, 08:34:59 AM »
Jah Gol

I had read various anecdotal articles etc arguing that the yield of ethanol energy was negative. 

Thanks for posting this article.

For those of you who may feel that I do not believe in protecting out environment (see climate change debate a few months ago), you are mistaken.

We HAVE to pursue alternatives to fossil fuel, but we have to do it in a responsible manner.  And while we do so, lets not pretend or fool our selves that what the pop environmentalists preach is always true.

Perhaps the ethanol yield will be come positive as R&D efforts continue.  But to switch to ethanol (or other alternatives) in a wholesale manner and without question or acknowledgment of the downside, as some governments are doing, is totally irresponsible.



 
As
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline Jah Gol

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 8493
  • Ronaldinho is the best player of our era
    • View Profile
    • The Ministry of Noise
Re: Ethanol in the US
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2007, 09:09:00 AM »
I think more R&D is necessary. There is also a view that crop production for fuel has a negative impact on food supplies.

But it should be noted that this is a US report. I think the realities may be different in Brazil with the production through sugarcane. It is said however that this kind of production requires a huge acreage of arable land that may be used for other  crop production. Brazil's advantage is that they have more arable land than any other country in the world and sugar production only uses a small percentage of that stock. However the same cannot be said of T&T .

 

1]; } ?>