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Offline FLi !

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Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« on: November 19, 2007, 07:27:36 PM »
It took an economist as opposed to any football pundit to point out that this creeping xenophobia through the EPL-and the UK on a whole to be honest- (esp the Tory's proposals)  is very much misplaced and that English National players have no further than themselves to look for the lack of success in the English team.

Stephen King: Football, migration and the blame game
 Published: 19 November 2007

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/comment/article3174456.ece

Having discovered that upwards of 5,000 of the illegal variety appear to be working in the security services, it's perhaps no great surprise that politicians and others are increasingly focusing on immigration. "British jobs for British workers" is the latest mantra from Gordon Brown.

Britain wouldn't be the nation it is without having benefited through the centuries from a steady influx of immigrants. Over the last 100 years, though, as the door has slowly closed on foreigners, the debate about immigration has shifted. The economic arguments mostly in its favour have been put to one side (a shame, perhaps, given Britain's relative economic decline over the last 100 years). Immigration has become primarily a political issue.

This doesn't stop others from commenting on the benefits or otherwise of foreign workers. Here's one observation. "Something has got to happen otherwise there will be more and more foreigners and they will take over."

OK, so I took that remark out of context. Steven Gerrard, Liverpool hero and England midfielder, was talking about the woes of the England football team. He went on to say: "There is a big danger that we stop producing quality young kids because of the amount of foreigners in the game. If foreigners do take over completely, it will affect the national team even worse than maybe it is now." Steve Coppell, erstwhile England midfielder and now manager of Reading FC (one of the poorer Premier League teams) warned: "We're the English Premier League, yet the majority of the teams at the top of the Premier League have few English players. We must protect our identity by having a limited number of non-English players."

For the economic debate on immigration, the English Premier League is a bit of a laboratory. The rational economist might argue that if the England football team continuously underperforms, England should give up on football altogether and concentrate on other national sports where the nation can, in fact, excel. Life, though, isn't like that. The real issue is whether current arrangements in the Premier League – supposedly the richest league in the world – are consistent with the production of a top-performing national team which might, once in a while, win something.

The English football team has had its ups and downs over the years. One of my earliest memories of English football failure was my father's return from Wembley on that fateful October night in 1973 when England were knock-ed out of the World Cup qualifiers by Poland. The manager that evening was Sir Alf Ramsey although, by that stage, only Martin Peters was left from England's earlier world-conquering team.

In the dark days of the 1970s, though, you could hardly blame our sporting failure on a lack of opportunities for English players in the old First Division. They had every opportunity they could possibly wish for. They simply weren't good enough to compete on the world stage (as they went on to prove through their failure to qualify for the 1978 World Cup).

Given these earlier disappointments, is it plausible to argue that the foreign influx into the English game has really undermined the performance of the national team? The most obvious problem with the argument is that, so far, it simply doesn't fit the facts. The first chart shows the numbers of English, other UK and foreign players in the starting line-ups of the Premier League teams on the first weekend of the season. In the early-1990s, English players dominated. Now, they're outnumbered by foreign players.

Internationally, however, English football reached its nadir in the mid-1990s, when English players still dominated the domestic league. In February and March 1996, FIFA ranked the England team 27th in the world. More recently, the England team has been mostly in the top ten (although, in October, the latest available month, England's position had admittedly dropped to 11th). Over the long haul, therefore, the foreign invasion has actually led to something of an English footballing renaissance.

What about other national teams? Italy, the current World Champions, provide a different perspective. All of the players in the Azzurri's 2006 winning squad came from their domestic league and their domestic league is, in turn, dominated by Italian players. During the 2006-07 season, Italian players contributed 70 per cent of all appearances in Serie A, whereas the equivalent figure for English players in the Premier League was only 43 per cent (although while Spain's league is dominated by home grown talent, their national team isn't exactly a beacon of success).

The German Bundesliga's domestic quotient was also 43 per cent last year and yet the German team isn't doing too badly, in sixth place in the FIFA rankings, only two places below Italy. And, in any case, who'd want to emulate Serie A's earlier reputation for endemic corruption?

The biggest difficulty, though, with the "too many foreigners" argument is the sheer introspection of the approach. FIFA ranks Argentina and Brazil first and second in the world, but how many of their players are benefiting from regular performances in the Brazilian and Argentine domestic leagues? Of Bra-zil's current squad, only one player earns his wages in Brazil. For Argentina, only five play in the domestic league. The rest all play in Europe – and, interestingly, not many choose to play in the Premier League. Brazil and Argentina are not alone. Of the 22 players in France's World Cup-winning squad in 1998, 12 chose to play in non-French leagues (for the record, four played in the Premier League but seven played in Italy).

This observation raises an obvious question. Why do so few Englishmen play abroad? If the success of so many other national teams seems to rest on a cosmopolitan approach to the game, why do English players not choose to spread their wings a little? Why are the Gerrards, Terrys, Rooneys and others not prepared to experience life in other leagues? Why are they so unwilling to take a few risks, to test their talents to the full? After all, if they did so, their own games would improve and there would, perhaps, be more domestic opportunities for up-and-coming English players in the Premier League.

Of the possible answers, I'll offer two. The first is simply a question of ability. Despite all the hype, English players just aren't good enough.[/u]

The second is a question of money. English players won't go abroad because they're paid way too much money at home. As money has poured into the Premier League, so the top clubs have become monopsonies, with monopolistic player-buying power (which raises a whole bunch of other questions about the distorting effects on competition of the influx of super-rich owners).

The monetary incentive for English players to move abroad is reduced and, as a result, their development into world class international players is possibly stifled. Playing in only the one league may make a player very rich, but there's no guarantee that he'll end up with the flexibility and creativity that may be required for success at international level. The demand for quotas to limit the number of foreign players in the Premier League is nonsense. It's really no more than an infant industry argument – protecting your domestic business in the light of tough foreign competition – in an industry which can hardly be described as being in its infancy.

The Premier League may currently be one of the better leagues in the world, but that's only because foreign players have been allowed in. As with any quota system, reducing their presence might provide more opportunities for English players, but only at the expense of a lower quality of football. It's difficult to see how that, alone, would lead to any improvement in the national team's footballing fortunes.

Stephen King is managing director of economics at HSBC

stephen.king@ hsbcib.com
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 07:31:54 PM by FLi ! »
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Offline dreamer

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2007, 07:59:18 PM »
Very very interesting. Thanks Fli! for posting this article.  :beermug:
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Offline redtrinigirl

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2007, 04:12:28 AM »
I rest my case.  :salute:
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Offline spideybuff

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2007, 06:20:54 AM »
The man hit the nail on the head. It's the inverse of the argument...more english players need to go abroad rather than reducing the number of foreign players in the league.

then it will have room for the younger english players to emerge. Just look at Brazil and Argentina as the prime example. And you will see Spain start to become a force soon as well if they continue to export players, cause that was something they didn't do either.

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Offline superoli

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2007, 08:05:34 AM »
Im not quite sure what this proves ?
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Offline FLi !

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2007, 08:09:46 AM »
Im not quite sure what this proves ?


It doesn't prove anything, nor was it meant to. The author posits a theory counter to the prevailing one about the correlation between the lack of success of the english national team and the influx of foreigners in the domestic league.

I agree with his theory and chose to post it. U're free to disagree  ;)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 08:11:35 AM by FLi ! »
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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2007, 08:15:22 AM »
so his theory is what ? that players need to go abroad ?

cause then Italy messes that one up
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Offline FLi !

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2007, 08:34:48 AM »
so his theory is what ? that players need to go abroad ?

cause then Italy messes that one up


Oli, i don't think you're being fair to the author. He is trying to debunk the myth that foreigners infiltrating the national league are to blame for the lack of English success at a national level.

He points to the fact that in the 70s, when the English division was all English and that argument for the national team's failure couldn't have worked then and that in fact England's standings has risen considerable since then and it is largely due to the exposure that the players get from regularly playing against foreigners in the EPL.

He points to the Argentine, Brazilian, French and  German, Spain  leagues as examples of where foreign influx in their domestic leagues had  no impact on the national team's successes and also that many of these nationals didn't play in their domestic leagues, but rather benefited from playing their trade in other leagues.

He asks the question, why don't these English players go abroad themselves if they really are that good, to make for other English players in the lower leagues who are struggling to make it into the EPL.

He states what he thinks to be 2 reasons: 1. they aren't that good to make it into some of the other european leagues and 2. their wages are so artificially inflated here in England, that no other European country would pay that price for them.

Ergo, they themselves are to blame for the lack of their success at a national team lvl, not foreigners.

You point to one league, Italy, whose example could either be an anomaly, or as he states ( and I agree) linked with the recent endemic corruption.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 08:40:12 AM by FLi ! »
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Offline Carib-Briton

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2007, 09:01:18 AM »
I'm not one to ''paint everyone with the same brush'' Have you ever tried asking an person that belongs to the so called ''Indigenous people'' of England why they think it's foreigners blocking the success of the England national side.In my experince the majority their reasoning doesn't last very long and it's not very detailed. I've even heard some complaing about Shaun Wright-Phillips & Micah Richards holding down places ( :rotfl:) for reasons I think I don't need to describe.
I think some people want Enoch Powell to be resurrected and become head of the Premier League & FA :rotfl:

Offline Carib-Briton

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2007, 09:08:52 AM »
Also english players are overvalued. If a manager can get a defender for 800K and and the a young up coming English defender is valued 8million and you haven't got 8million to spend what are you going to do?!?!

This shit is annoying everyday their a debate on foreigners and it's boring, It's a annoying and sad at some of the people supporting (e.g Ian Wright) the anti-foreigner debate without thinking the factors why many foreigners are here.

Offline Filho

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2007, 10:36:17 AM »
so his theory is what ? that players need to go abroad ?

cause then Italy messes that one up


Oli

He actually posits two theories. You only mention the second. Go back and check the first...and you'll see why the Italians don't mess up anything.

Interesting points.
I don't agree with the first. They English players are good enough.
I agree with the second. Couldn't hurt to have some players in leagues liek Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga




Offline superoli

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2007, 11:15:08 AM »
I find his theories very simplistic and there can be many reasons which need to be examied in more detail

1) Tax reasons - many French players also will not play at home due to the heavy tax penalties apart from the higher wages they earn overseas

2) why would you play abroad and leave your country if you could earn more or similar money playing at home.

3) A lot of S American players tend to have Italian, Portugese, or Spanish passports (or can get them !) and they speak the Latin languages so naturally would gravitate to latin countries. hence why Trinis tend to go to England and the MLS

4) England has not done that badly in the last 20 years reaching quarters etc regularly whereas Spain is forever failing to impress

5) people often forget that Italy won 2 of its world cup titles in 1934 and 1938
1934 had 16 teams with only 4 coming from outside europe (with holders Uruguay declining to go) and the ref in Italy's  quarter final win over spain was subsequently banned for bias !
in 1938 Argentia and Uruguay both snubbed the tournament as did many other countries

so basically its a mish mash of points I now I cant string them together as I'm tired but my opinion is that the author has a very simplistic view of something complicated
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2007, 12:14:42 PM »
I find his theories very simplistic and there can be many reasons which need to be examied in more detail

1) Tax reasons - many French players also will not play at home due to the heavy tax penalties apart from the higher wages they earn overseas

2) why would you play abroad and leave your country if you could earn more or similar money playing at home.

3) A lot of S American players tend to have Italian, Portugese, or Spanish passports (or can get them !) and they speak the Latin languages so naturally would gravitate to latin countries. hence why Trinis tend to go to England and the MLS

4) England has not done that badly in the last 20 years reaching quarters etc regularly whereas Spain is forever failing to impress

5) people often forget that Italy won 2 of its world cup titles in 1934 and 1938
1934 had 16 teams with only 4 coming from outside europe (with holders Uruguay declining to go) and the ref in Italy's  quarter final win over spain was subsequently banned for bias !
in 1938 Argentia and Uruguay both snubbed the tournament as did many other countries

so basically its a mish mash of points I now I cant string them together as I'm tired but my opinion is that the author has a very simplistic view of something complicated

Actually, no offense but it's your analysis of the essay that's simplistic.  Stephen King has posited what can only be called one of the more cogent and enlightening discussions on the current state of the English game...an essay the gist of which (for whatever reason) you seem incapable of or unwilling to grasp.

Your points, and their counters:

1) Tax reasons - many French players also will not play at home due to the heavy tax penalties apart from the higher wages they earn overseas

None of his points focuses on why French players don't play at home. His reference to France was merely illustrative in that France is one of the better teams in the world today and coincidence or not, the majority of their starters happen to ply their trade in Italy.  He never said they went to Italy because Serie A is better than Le Championnat, or because they prefer Italian women or the Meditteranean clime.

2) why would you play abroad and leave your country if you could earn more or similar money playing at home.

He actually stated this to be the mindset of the English players...and never said that the players (from a financial aspect) should go abroad.  His point was that from anecdotal evidence every good national team (Italy being the notable exception) seems to benefit from having their players hone their game in a cosmopolitan environment.  The simple fact that you choose to repeat this point is itself indicative of the argument having flown past you.

3) A lot of S American players tend to have Italian, Portugese, or Spanish passports (or can get them !) and they speak the Latin languages so naturally would gravitate to latin countries. hence why Trinis tend to go to England and the MLS

This proves nothing and is entirely tangential to the discussion.  The focus of the essay...again, wasn't why Players from Country X go abroad to ply their trades...it was more of a hypothetical "Would England benefit by having our lads go mix it up a bit in the Italian and Spanish leagues?".  Additionally, Trinis don't "tend to go to England and the MLS"...Trinis tend to go wherever there is interest in their abilities, even if that means the lower French, Belgian and Hungarian divisions..

4) England has not done that badly in the last 20 years reaching quarters etc regularly whereas Spain is forever failing to impress

Whatever 'not badly' means it sure resembles mediocrity.

5) people often forget that Italy won 2 of its world cup titles in 1934 and 1938
1934 had 16 teams with only 4 coming from outside europe (with holders Uruguay declining to go) and the ref in Italy's  quarter final win over spain was subsequently banned for bias !
in 1938 Argentia and Uruguay both snubbed the tournament as did many other countries

Okay...and you discounting their achievements from 70 yrs ago means they're not one of the better teams today?  Your use of 'simplistic' to describe King's points thus becomes the definition of Irony.  Italy has also reached three finals in the past 25 yrs, winning two.  England would be happy to lay such a claim.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 01:06:49 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline superoli

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2007, 12:27:14 PM »
 I was tired and I started writing but then got bored.............
good night
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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2007, 05:57:57 PM »
Actually, Bakes, I was told by a player yesterday that he would rather play in Engish League 1 rather than Serie A, because he can't speak the language. This is a common theme, not just among footbalers, but amongst many ordinary English people.

I referred to it as a small island mentality.

Also, and I know I might get a lot of abuse for this, but Enoch Powell was not actualy a racist. In his "rivers of blood" speech he was predicting the race riots of the 80's. He didn't oppose any race or nationality, he was opposing Britains open door policy to immigrants and arguing that tighter controls be put in place, and warning that the growth of single race communities would cause segregation, resentment and distrust.

I fully understand why people settled in areas predominantly housing their own nationalities, because if I emigrated, I would want to live with other English people (of any colour). I have listened to the stories from my St Lucian mother in law about her settlement in London. It was an incredibly brave adventure and a very difficult time for Caribbean immigrants. Nobody tried to educate the English. But thats no excuse for some of their behaviour. There is an excellent book by Angela Levy called "Small Island" which describes the post war influx of Caribbean folk to the UK.

Anyway, I apologise for digressing from football.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2007, 01:14:04 AM »
Actually, Bakes, I was told by a player yesterday that he would rather play in Engish League 1 rather than Serie A, because he can't speak the language. This is a common theme, not just among footbalers, but amongst many ordinary English people.

I referred to it as a small island mentality.

FPATT it's not my contention that this mentality doesn't exist...I'm simply saying that Mr. King doesn't offer any reason why the English players don't go overseas...he simply wonders (implicitly) if their game would develop should they so do.

Quote
Also, and I know I might get a lot of abuse for this, but Enoch Powell was not actualy a racist. In his "rivers of blood" speech he was predicting the race riots of the 80's. He didn't oppose any race or nationality, he was opposing Britains open door policy to immigrants and arguing that tighter controls be put in place, and warning that the growth of single race communities would cause segregation, resentment and distrust.

I fully understand why people settled in areas predominantly housing their own nationalities, because if I emigrated, I would want to live with other English people (of any colour). I have listened to the stories from my St Lucian mother in law about her settlement in London. It was an incredibly brave adventure and a very difficult time for Caribbean immigrants. Nobody tried to educate the English. But thats no excuse for some of their behaviour. There is an excellent book by Angela Levy called "Small Island" which describes the post war influx of Caribbean folk to the UK.

Anyway, I apologise for digressing from football.

No need to apologize, I think we all would tend to aggregate to areas where we would fit in better...if nothing else to ease the transition to the new place.  Good also to get your mom-in-law's perspective too...nice to have a backlight to the story sometimes.

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2007, 03:20:44 AM »
No probs, Bakes, wasn't trying to argue with you, just give you a view on players perspectives.
 This lack of ambition by English players is very frustrating.
Also, I forgot to say this, the player I was speaking about is a guy with Caribbean parentage. You'd think there'd be a bit of adventure in the genes, but I guess thats almost a racist comment really, because no matter what your colour, race or creed, if you're a player born in England, generally,  you'll stay in England.

Offline redtrinigirl

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2007, 04:53:12 AM »
Hmmm, I must say I have found this to be the case with the english born-and-raised. I have two friends (half Trinis) who forever talk about wanting to go and work in Trini, oh they love it, they visit 2 or 3 times a year, blah, blah. Now both are in industries where their salary would be among the top percentage in Trini (round 20k a month) if they did decide to go there to work. But when you mention avenues where they can go about maybe taking up a six month or one year contract, yuh know, just for the experience, then come the excuses why they can't.

They seem to be a very geographically restricted lot. The average english person I've asked (from various jobs I've held) has never even been to the US. I find that amazing. They don't even have to go through the hassle of getting a visa, and currency exchage has never been an issue.

Trinis on the other hand are an adventurous lot. I've found Trinis all over europe (notice, language is no barrier for us), turkey, austrailia, hawaii, south america, US and canada.
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Offline superoli

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2007, 05:44:14 AM »
Yes but we come from a small island with restrictions on job and education opportunities. We have a lot more incentive to leave Trinidad than a British person. For example my univeristy degree was not available at UWI when I finished A levels and also my job simply does not exist in Trinidad. Same reason in the US only something like 12% of the population (from CNN) have a passport because they have everything they need in one country. In fact the British are one of the most travelled in Europe (I think only second to Germans) and judging by their present emmigration levels one of the most willing to move to another country to live.

I just find a lot of Trinis are quick to critcise their hosts for lack of of knowledge and travel whilst themselves going to Trini parties, eating Trini food and listening to Trini music. I have no problem with that (I do it myself) but give their hosts some slack when they are ignorant of things.

At least I have never been asked if we have cars and TV like I was in Washinton Dc
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 08:28:58 AM by superoli »
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Offline fishs

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2007, 06:37:58 AM »

 Ah remember that game in  '73.

England had to beat Poland to qualify.

 England was beating Poland 1:0 and was only firing shot after shot at the polish goalie Tomascheski, ball hit upright, crossbar, Tomascheski, foot, head and they still couldn't put the ball in the net ah second tiime.
Ah cyar remember the names of the players too good but ah remember Hunter, Young, Shilton or was it Jennings?, Curry a real good team , in fact the commentators say England had 90 shots to goal.

 Poland had 1 shot to goal.... and it score.
Lato a winger with real, real speed get ah loose ball and take off like ah mad man down the left , was only he and Young , they say young like he was frozen because the day was real cold and he did not have much to do during the game ...watch Lato blow past him and then grab on to he shirt and drag him down

Well the penalty score and the rest was history.

Poland went on to place 3rd in the WC finals and ah think Lato get golden boot.

Of course Haiti represent Concacaf after tiefing Trinidad and Jack allow it .
That 73' team was the best it had men like Gally.......  ;D ;D
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline Bakes

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Re: Football, Migration and the Blame Game.....
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2007, 09:37:56 AM »
In fact the British are one of the most travelled in Europe

Stop lying, the Japanese are the most travelled in Europe... :rotfl:

 

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