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Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: Choked to death for no Hijab
« Reply #120 on: December 19, 2007, 05:38:10 PM »
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no man possesses the answers.. however, I believe these answers will be revealed to me after i leave this world.. nothing will change my belief in God..

so anyway, mr. evolutionist/natural selectionist... Since you been the one asking all the questions of the Christian belief.. Lemme ask some "of yours, especially since yuh ent believe in the existence of some higher power:



"- if evolution is true, how come there's such a big gulf between mankind and the next most intelligent species? ie. how come there's no intermediate between a chimpanzee and a human being, it is like man is a vastly superior being to the rest of the animals.."


It is very difficult to find evidence of so-called intermediate species, because evolution typically happens under a bottleneck, leaving behind very few intermediates. But evidence has been coming in piece by piece for many years. I have no answer for you on this one. I really don't know.

"- how come man ent evolving? why people in war torn countries cyah just grow a bullet proof chest plate or something? cause dem plants and fish does seem to adapt real quick when come time to stave off predators."


First define evolution. And not just the therory. How does it work on  a molecular level? If you don't know how it works then how you know man is not evolving? Grow a bullet proof chest plate?.....You watching too much X-Men. For a human to grow such  a thing would take many hundreds of thousans if not millions of years. Evolution and selection require constant pressure to facilitate very miniscule genetic changes. It is the population changes that occur after a mutation that involove big shifts, not the mutation itself.

Exactly how quick does a fish adapt? What particular fish species are you speaking of and where was the population where the adaption took place? Which particular predator in which environment?  Is this what you are talking about?
 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/sex/guppy/low_bandwidth.html

Selection and evolution of the kind you are speaking about occur under heavy environmental pressure, in which the capabilities of the individual are streched to the max. Even under war-torn conditions the evolutionary pressure is not totally up to the individual. Sometimes it is completely out of their grasp. It is easier for a deer to evolve longer legs or a denser capilliary network to help it outrun a predator than for a man to develop capability to out run lowflying warcraft or janjaweed pelting behind them on a horse. There is a limit to evolution.

"- How come this world is in such perfect balance? climate-wise, atmospherically etc.."


What exactly is perfect climate balance?. What physiochemical metrics is this based on? Omar the "climate balance you are talking about is based mostly on the chemical properties of water. Life on earth lives in a narrow range of temperature and humidity conditions  loosely defined by the heat capacity of and bonding properties of water. How does this "prove" God.

And another thing....if we think everything God put on this earth is so great and perfect, why are we ripping down his trees and forests to put up shopping malls and paking lots. The chinese traditionally used bicycles to get around....yet GM and Ford want to sell a billion cars in China. How does that help God's perfect atmosphere? Why religious people don't complain man desecrating God's perfect creations?



"- How come a virus, or killer insect dont just spring up and wipe away mankind?"

Viruses and other disease vectors are constrained by environmental conditions and other factors. They cannot just up and do as they please. The tsetse fly cannot just migrate out of Africa into Europe just so. The food, climate, competition and predation it faces over there will be different than in sub-saharan Africa. The plague is another example of a vector stopped before it was well on the way to wiping out most of Europe. Only bacteria and viruses by way of their dense genomes and adaptable physiology have the capacity to do spread beyond their natural borders in an appreciably short period of time.

Look at HIV. Even if the HIV virus was to spread to every country, city and village in the world, it still could not kill all of humankind. The aids virus enters CD4 killer T cells of the human immune system by latching onto a chemokine receptor in the cell membrane of the CD4 cell.  The receptor is called the CCR4 receptor. The CCR4 receptors are mutated in about 15-20% of the entire population of Northern Europe. HIV cannot latch onto the CCR4 receptor in these people and infect them because the mutation gives it a different "shape". It is like trying to open a lock with a key that does not fit.


"- Why we dont get regular natural disasters of enormous proportions? Like a category 10 storm or 15.0 earthquake... or lash by big asteroids... We so lucky boy?"

The space inside our solar system is very large. The ratio of empty space to asteroid mass is extremely low . Plus the bulk of meteoric debris is concentrated in a region between Mars and Jupiter. Don't worry though, we will get one soon enough. You will thank God you were not upon this earth when it does happen. Yes we are very luck right now.

"- How do you explain your conscience and your soul? Whey dat come from? why yuh cyah be a careless hater like any other animal.."

How many animals have you seen that are "haters"....I have not seen too many...remember hunting for food is not hate but murder, slavery, oppression and lifelong denial of another's basic human rights are Omar, and I have never seen an animal do that yet.. When was the last time somebody's  pet started a religious war? Explain why so many people seem to have no conscience or soul.


"- I have a friend who had cancer was given a year to live, and thru faith and prayer is cured.. dat baffling doctors right now.. How is that possible? How do you explain miraculous healings on the whole?"

My mother died of Cancer, it is always nice when I hear somebody beat it. But  modern medicine and vaccines based on science have cured much more people and reunited more families than miracles ever have. Just because the cancer was "cured" does not mean it is a miracle. It is only a miracle if you can't explain it. If a doctor give a man viagara to make he totee get hard is that a "miracle"?


"- wha is dis love ting? we should just be licksing nuff girls to proliferate de species.. and while we on that, why we does get pleasure from sex anyway if is just a reproduction thing?"

Love I have no answer for that one  :devil:  And in all seriousness, you cannot just "lick" girls. They have say in it too. From an evolutionary point of view why should sex not feel good? What other reason would some sweet woman want a big stinking sweaty animal like you or me floundering and flopping around between their legs for?
"- do you believe in spirits, good and evil? or are documented cases of possession just insanity manifested?"

Document is different from verified. Who is doing the documenting...whrere is this documented evidence?
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"i believe to chalk the composition of this world down to luck and chance and the unchecked phenomenon of evolution and natural selection to be foolhardy in the least.."

"at the very least you should concede that there is proof all around us as to the existence of a divine being, or a higher power at work.. wha yuh say?"

Omar yes what you see around you is proof of a higher power at work. The ordering power of the universe. However what you are not seeing or at least not acknowledging is the randomness and choatic nature of the universe that is also of "God". To me they are like the two sides of the same coin. The laws of the universe are the will of God manifest, but chaos is the agent of the luck, chance, variability and uncertainty upon which we may excercise and test the free will with which we were bestowed and which is also the will of God. I also think that if indeed there is a God he did not leave us to run  on autopilot, not using the minds that he gave us. In fact that refusal to think is why much of the world is in the mess it is in right now.



I am not trying to change your beliefs; you already said nothing will make you change your mind. What no one has been able to tell me yet though is how belief in God and belief in evolution are mutually exclusive.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Respect
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 07:26:44 PM by ZANDOLIE »
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truetrini

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Re: Choked to death for no Hijab
« Reply #121 on: December 19, 2007, 10:41:34 PM »

I believe in evolution and natural selection!

When you die its is kaput, you cease to exist.

The christian God changes not, so why have a prohibiton against incest after he allowed it at first, besides it does NOT mesh with the initial story of Cain with his mark afraid of being harmed for murdering his brother.

seems like Your God created more men incognito...lol

Yu eh answer any of my questions but yuh in meh backside fuh some simple questions?

Ok so ah answer yuh, go get some more coffee and try tuh answer my questions in a cogent manner.

me eh want yuh  by faith excuse eh, dat is not an answer!



you say that faith is an excuse and not an answer..  but how do you quantify your belief in evolution and natural selection?

Scientific evidence, thats how,  unlike the theory of God, there is scientific evidence that evolution is real,,,,natural selection is not a theory nah, is ah damn fact!


Do you honestly believe that at some point in time there was this big explosion, our planet was formed and then some rock move dry so kicking off life as we know it?

Maybe it was a small explosion but very oud and that is why they called it the Big Bang  lol.  yes I beleive in that faster than some mysterious man who so good and kind, dat he allows all kinda suffering and hardaches and only talks to some so-called ministers who always getting ketch in bulling boys, money scamming and such!  Religion is really de opium of de masses!  And rock doh move dry so and make life, conmditions ahve to be appropriate.. allyuh religious people do allyuh level best to inhibit science and anything that creates doubts in peoples minds or to make them think.

Dont you see a baseless assertion like that as founded on some degree of faith (be it not in a higher power).. the same faith that would have had someone like yourself believing that the earth was flat and you would fall off the edge if you sail out to the horizon??

To be truthful, jes looking at the horizon I could see why someone could come to the conclusion that if yuh go too close yuh go fall orf.  Dat is based on common sense and experiences...like man who fall of a bed, dey know not to roll too much,,yuh digZ?  But yuh see scientific minds test de perception and hypothesize, make experiments and learn the truth...religious minds say, f**k dat i have faith in the status quo.

Jack boy.. this has been a real enlightening discourse.. one of the most informative for de year actually..

I am glad you feel so....now go out and buy ah science book, and stop with de fantasy book.

yuh fully justified in having a broad range of questions about religion and spirituality. To try to understand the reasons why God did things the way he did from our limited capability is bound to bring forth questions and some measure of doubt.. and i think that the journey to gaining that wisdom is key to the process of strengthening one's faith..

see yuh assuming dat yuh God have limitless reasoning, didnt ZJesus himself ay whay I do is nutten, man will do this and greater?  Faith?  Faith in what> some invisible man, who so deteached he living way up in Heave and he does talk thru men in tongues and always asking fuh money?  nah...keep dat!

the truth is; it is wholly impossible to win an argument like this if spirituality and religion is examined and scrutinized within the context and limitations of human reasoning.. the Bible is not a literal account and if viewed as such is wrought with contradictions and inconsistencies.. I eh no biblical scholar, but from the parts of the Bible i've read, i too have plenty questions.. like i cyah understand why after the Great Flood, the Lord said "I will not do this evil again" which indicates to me regret.. I cyah understand how Solomon get to have de world ah girls as a divine reward when everything about my religious teaching says fornication and promiscuity is intrinsically wrong.. and that is just scrapin de barrell of questions..

So now de Bible is not to be taken literally eh?  LOL, allyuh have less faith than be boy.   de Bible wrought with contradictions and inaccuracies yuh say>  So yuh god not perfect in everyway dat he inspire man to create a roadmap for living dat have innacuracies and errors and contradictions?  So why follow dat, If yuh doctors had books teachig dem dat yuh gluteus maximus was a musce in yuh face, yuh would go by he fuh constipation>?  lol..allyuh really have little faith yes.  I would expect a believer to stand firm and defend his Bible to de end.  It jes shows how unispred the Bible really is,  it was written not fuh all men but for de Jews.  They openly co-opted many traditions and myths from other societies and adapted them with an uniquley Jewish twist.  solomon get ah pass becasue he build dem temple fella, de man was a tyrant a slave holder and a killer, not jes ah playboy who married many women to consolidate his power.  it is all about Jewish politics.  God allows incest in one onstace den bans it and calls it unacceptabke in another is a fime example of hypocricy!


no man possesses the answers.. however, I believe these answers will be revealed to me after i leave this world.. nothing will change my belief in God..

Yuh leaving this world fuh which other world?  breds thos is it, get used to this world unless yuh planning a space trip somehwere.

so anyway, mr. evolutionist/natural selectionist... Since you been the one asking all the questions of the Christian belief.. Lemme ask some of yours, especially since yuh ent believe in the existence of some higher power:


- if evolution is true, how come there's such a big gulf between mankind and the next most intelligent species? ie. how come there's no intermediate between a chimpanzee and a human being, it is like man is a vastly superior being to the rest of the animals..

Ah see zandolie answer dat to my liking. 

- how come man ent evolving? why people in war torn countries cyah just grow a bullet proof chest plate or something? cause dem plants and fish does seem to adapt real quick when come time to stave off predators..

again your questioning on evolution is rather simplisitc but no scene, who says man is not evolving?  As zandolie rightly pointed out, evolution is not a rapid process, by de way, wey de dinosaurs gorn> and wey dem come from?

- How come this world is in such perfect balance? climate-wise, atmospherically etc..

This world is chaotic and rambling, La Nina, el nino, etc.  not as organized and stable as you want to think,

- How come a virus, or killer insect dont just spring up and wipe away mankind?

What eh miss yuh eh pass yuh, dat could very well happen in the future, near or distance....remember yuh God say he eh go wipe out de world by flood again so he send ah rainbow as a sign  lol, too damn funny dat rainbow ting.  So maybe he next act is ah super virus?  Maybe because we eh giving enough in de collection plate???

- Why we dont get regular natural disasters of enormous proportions? Like a category 10 storm or 15.0 earthquake... or lash by big asteroids... We so lucky boy?

So yuh feel de tsunami dat wiped out so many Indonesians, tuh dem dat wasn't a category 60?  steups, what made dem so damn unlucky>  maybe cuz dey eh chrsitian and is muslims?  Man hemmoroids bad enough yuh looking fuh astroids?  lol  again what eh miss yuh eh pass yuh, dere is scientif evidence dat de earth ahs been struck several times in the past with cathostrophic consequences!   Like yuh feel we moon made of swiss cheese too or wha?

- How do you explain your conscience and your soul? Whey dat come from? why yuh cyah be a careless hater like any other animal..

Prove dis soul ting, and conscience is based on cultural norms, in de west we eh go strap no bomb on we chest and walk into a market with school chirren, but in de East dat eh no big ting.  Look in Saudi how ah rape victim was sentenced to 100 lash...why boss?  Wey dem conscience gorn?

- I have a friend who had cancer was given a year to live, and thru faith and prayer is cured.. dat baffling doctors right now.. How is that possible? How do you explain miraculous healings on the whole?

Good fuh yuh fren ah hope de cancer in permanent remission.  I never see a miraculous healing or demon possession and exorcism except in hollywood movies, but that typical of religion, tings dem cyar explain dey chalk down to de miraculous...it is my belief that is exactly how religion started and God was created in de fus place!

- wha is dis love ting? we should just be licksing nuff girls to proliferate de species.. and while we on that, why we does get pleasure from sex anyway if is just a reproduction thing??

Do turtle doves love their mates?  And what stops a man who is in live from licksing another woman.  A standing prick has no conscience, even david kill ah man so he could sex he wife, and yuh god still say david is a man after he own heart...ask he why!  As for pleasure from sex, that is excellent evidence of evolution, if it wasnt pleasurable, den why do it and repeat it?  If man didnt want to sex, den we would not reproduce and there woukd be no more man!


- do you believe in spirits, good and evil? or are documented cases of possession just insanity manifested?

De only spirit in beleive in is de spitirt of Vat 19!  possession is 9 tenths of de law..lol sorry could not resist, prove any such demon possession ,, simple ting, proof!

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i believe to chalk the composition of this world down to luck and chance and the unchecked phenomenon of evolution and natural selection to be foolhardy in the least..

yuh again making simplisitc assumptions, Evolution is not unchecked, it is checked that is why yuh have natural selection, dat is why yuh have species not suited for this world wiped out.   If evolution is not real, God is not real either!

at the very least you should concede that there is proof all around us as to the existence of a divine being, or a higher power at work.. wha yuh say?

I say NOPE!  I see no evidence of such a being, and if there were I would have no respect for His callous disregard of human suffering and injustices!  But in my limited way of thinking I doh know his ways..right?


« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 06:49:00 PM by Jack_Manday »

truetrini

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Re: Choked to death for no Hijab
« Reply #122 on: December 20, 2007, 06:46:13 PM »
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.
The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.


This concept is also explained in introductory biology books that are used in colleges and universities (and in some of the better high schools). For example, in some of the best such textbooks we find:
Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution.
- Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434


Also:
Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs.
- Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972


One of the best introductory books on evolution (as opposed to introductory biology) is that by Douglas J. Futuyma, and he makes the following comment:
A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century.
- Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15[/b]


Hey Bakes here is some SCIENCE for you...thoughts/

Consanguinity – Inbreeding

Definition of Consanguinity – Inbreeding

Inbreeding is the production of offspring by the mating of closely related individuals. This practice provides a greater chance for recessive genes to be expressed phenotypically. In humans, the amount of inbreeding in a specific population is largely controlled by traditional and cultural practices.

Description of Consanguinity – Inbreeding

In Europe and North America, the marriage between close relatives is strongly discouraged by social convention. However, this is not true in many parts of the world. Marriage between close relatives is common in areas of the world in which geographical or ethnic isolation make marriage to unrelated people difficult.
The majority of serious genetic disorders are recessive, which means that an individual must inherit two copies of the abnormal gene (one from each parent) for the disorder to be expressed.

It is much more likely that both parents will carry the same recessive gene if the parents are related. The risk of a serious disease or malformation in a child of such a union is about 1 in 20. However, among married first cousins, the risk increases to about 1 in 11. If the couple are first-degree relatives, the risk is 1 in 2.

Cultural taboos are only loosely related to risk. The marriage of double-first cousins is just as risky (from a genetic standpoint) as it is in the marriage of a half-sister and a half-brother. However, in most places, the former is legal and the latter is not.

In cultures without significant inbreeding, the distribution of recessive disease genes will no longer be random and the genes will be concentrated in the more inbred families. An unexpected observation has been that non-consanguineous marriages in such cultures actually have a lower rate of genetic disorders than couples in cultures where close inbreeding is not socially acceptable.

For example, non-consanguineous Pakistani couples in Britain have fewer disabled children than their British counterparts. At first glance, it might seem that the line of inheritance on an inbred family with a serious disease gene might simply die out. However, there is some evidence to suggest that closely related couples are, in fact, more fertile than unrelated couples. Therefore, although any individual child is less likely to be healthy, more children are produced, and the net result is roughly the same. In such cultures, some social advantages of marrying close relatives, in terms of maintaining family wealth and relations between groups, may outweigh biological disadvantages.


Consanguinity and Birth Defects

Some birth defects can be inherited, meaning that the hereditary information is passed from parent to child by genes located on the chromosomes found in cells.

Normal body cells have 46 chromosomes, except for the reproductive cells (the sperm and egg) which have only 23 chromosomes each. At conception, each parent normally contributes 23 gene-carrying chromosomes to the hereditary make-up of the child.

In some cases, one affected parent has a faulty gene which dominates its normal counterpart, and each child has a 50 percent chance of inheriting the faulty gene and the disorder. This is known as dominant inheritance. Huntington's disease and Marfan syndrome are examples of genetic conditions that are transmitted this way.

In other genetic disorders, both parents (apparently normal) carry the same abnormal gene. Each child that is conceived has:

a 25 percent risk of receiving that gene from both parents (in which case, the particular birth defect may occur)
a 25 percent chance of inheriting the two normal genes and remaining unaffected
a 50 percent chance of inheriting one faulty and one normal gene (becoming a carrier without the disorder, just like the parents). This type of inheritance is called recessive inheritance.
Cystic fibrosis and Tay-Sachs disease are transmitted as recessive disorders. Therefore, the chance of inheriting a recessive disorder is increased in a child whose parents are "blood" relatives (consanguineous).

« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 07:33:06 PM by Jack_Manday »

truetrini

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Re: Choked to death for no Hijab
« Reply #123 on: December 20, 2007, 10:39:55 PM »
Omar..check this, yuh ask and yuh receive...almost like if a gos hear yuh prayer ent?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22350742/

Offline Bakes

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Re: Choked to death for no Hijab
« Reply #124 on: December 21, 2007, 07:52:14 AM »
Hey Bakes here is some SCIENCE for you...thoughts/

It is much more likely that both parents will carry the same recessive gene if the parents are related. The risk of a serious disease or malformation in a child of such a union is about 1 in 20. However, among married first cousins, the risk increases to about 1 in 11. If the couple are first-degree relatives, the risk is 1 in 2....

In other genetic disorders, both parents (apparently normal) carry the same abnormal gene. Each child that is conceived has:

a 25 percent risk of receiving that gene from both parents (in which case, the particular birth defect may occur)
a 25 percent chance of inheriting the two normal genes and remaining unaffected
a 50 percent chance of inheriting one faulty and one normal gene (becoming a carrier without the disorder, just like the parents). This type of inheritance is called recessive inheritance.
Cystic fibrosis and Tay-Sachs disease are transmitted as recessive disorders. Therefore, the chance of inheriting a recessive disorder is increased in a child whose parents are "blood" relatives (consanguineous).


Sounds a lot like what I posted earlier...

Quote
Leh we not exaggerate...incest doesn't lead to genetic mutations.  Parents usually pass along dominant and recessive genes to their offspring.  You increase the chances of recessive genes being expressed when you intermarry withing the family...simple matter of probability.  This is particularly true then the relation is close, such as among siblings and even cousins.  These recessive genes typically manifest themselves as physical deformities, or could simply be phenotypic traits, such as the "Habsburg Lip" or a physiological ailment such as Hemophilia.  Hardly grotesque mutations...ent?

Still doesn't result in genetic mutations though.... ;)

 

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