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Author Topic: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???  (Read 3880 times)

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Offline TriniCana

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Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« on: January 12, 2008, 07:54:33 AM »
Juror: Only my husband can see
NEWSDAY
By FRANCIS JOSEPH Saturday, January 12 2008


THE High Court will seek the assistance of the Muslim community in the country to determine whether a Muslim woman, called as a potential juror, can refuse to remove her burka (the veil covering her face).

The issue arose recently when a Muslim woman was called as a potential juror before Madame Justice Joan Charles in the Port-of-Spain High Court in December.

The woman who is a member of a Muslim sect in Central Trinidad, turned up in court with only her eyes exposed. During an inquiry by the court, the woman, a Muslim scholar, said based on her religious beliefs, the only man who can see her face is her husband. She is allowed to show off her face to other women.

The matter became an issue and yesterday, there was an intervention from Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) Geoffrey Henderson, Ravi Rajcoomar, representing the Law Association, and a State attorney from the Solicitor General’s Department.

Henderson asked, “How should the court approach a juror who has the constitutional right to practice her religious beliefs in circumstances where she is a juror who is not exempted under the Jury Act, but wishes to serve as a juror wearing her burka which reveals only her eyes?”

The DPP continued, “How is that to be reconciled with the rights of the accused person who has the right to see the face of the juror who sits in judgment of the issues in this case?”

According to Henderson, there is also the issue of security.

An issue also arose on the last occasion as to whether the media should be banned from reporting this issue. Rajcoomar told the court that the judge had no power to ban the media from covering this issue and reminded Charles of the Privy Council decision in the Independent Publishing case.

After hearing the attorneys, Charles said an invitation would be extended to the Inter-Religious Organisation (IRO) seeking the assistance of the Muslim groups, including the one to which the juror belongs, to hear their views. She said the IRO would identify the persons who should be consulted.

Charles adjourned the matter to January 18 for a status hearing to decide on the path forward in determining this issue. The juror has already served one month in court, but according to the lawyers, this issue can return to the judiciary in the near future.

 

Offline TriniCana

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2008, 08:00:06 AM »
Making ah big issue out of nothing...

According to Henderson, there is also the issue of security.

1. No problem Henderson. All she has to do is every morning before entering the court room is too takes off her burka in front of a female police officer.  End of Story.

She did say she can remove the burka in front of females ent ???



Offline dcs

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2008, 08:08:54 AM »


The main issue is that the accused can't see the juror....which is his/her right.
I guess that law there in case the accused realises he knows the juror previously and there may be a conflict of interest or likelyhood of bias.  I eh know but I guessing this right of the accused to see the juror doesn't exist in muslim states.....if they have jurys.

Offline TriniCana

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 08:11:54 AM »
i see your point....

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 12:23:14 PM »
The main issue is that the accused can't see the juror....which is his/her right.
I guess that law there in case the accused realises he knows the juror previously and there may be a conflict of interest or likelyhood of bias.  I eh know but I guessing this right of the accused to see the juror doesn't exist in muslim states.....if they have jurys.
hear nuh
I totally agree that the accussed HAS the RIGHT to see who the jurors are. When in Rome.......

Having said that, There was a show on TV recently about Dubai and all the Expatriots that work there. well it is proving to be a problem for the locals and I agree that these expatriots are NOW working in Dubai so they should live according to Dubai expectations. very simple, when you in a country where the customs are one way you live accordingly.
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
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truetrini

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 03:30:59 PM »
ban all religions!

LOL

I jes imitating TI eh.

but on h serious note, she should not be sitting on no damn jury!  she should not even be allowed to vote.

suppose she imitate somebody and vote on dem behalf..who is to know, ah hope she eh get no fcoking de=river's license either, no id vard, no passport and no wuk id...

religion go make dis world buss..and is over superstition too eh....STEUPS

Offline TriniCana

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 06:10:01 PM »
although me ain't have nothing against religion because ah firmly believe dat religion is man made, and is how ya live ya life and how ya treat others is what really counts.

so TT i hear ya at ah certain point....and ah see where ya going.

so i have ah question to put forward.

back in meh day, wid common entrance ya have to write down 5 schools ya want to pass for. so dey muslim or hindu chile did common entrance and pass for ah catholic school....lewwe say St Joseph Convent or Holy Name.

first day ah school, one come wid she hajib on and dey other one come with she ticker on she forehead....while dey ress ah dem saying rosary and our fadda.
2 ah dem say dey ain't saying it, cause datz not dem religion and dey doh believe in dat, furthermore dem ain't taking off dey hajib and ticker.

suspend until dey compile wid dey school rules ?
transfer dem ?
or blame dey parents for allowing dem to put ah catholic school in dere choice of schools when dey very well know that prayers and other religious knowledge will be taught.

weary since ya in dey ministry ah education, what is dey ministry stand on dis kinda ting? has it ever happened before that the ministry had to intervene?

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2008, 10:59:43 PM »
they cannot suspend a child fuh not saying prayers in ah school becasue they have ah different religious belief.

The scools in question are funded by the governement hence the reason why others of different religious persuasions attend those schools.

If it were a private school then yes, dem could get suspended, yet that is hardly what i think willhappen

Offline Bakes

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2008, 12:56:55 AM »


The main issue is that the accused can't see the juror....which is his/her right.
I guess that law there in case the accused realises he knows the juror previously and there may be a conflict of interest or likelyhood of bias.  I eh know but I guessing this right of the accused to see the juror doesn't exist in muslim states.....if they have jurys.

This is exactly the issue...but really and truly, who gives a fack?  Send de 'oman home and pick somebody else nuh?  steups

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2008, 01:42:57 AM »
Juror: Only my husband can see
NEWSDAY
By FRANCIS JOSEPH Saturday, January 12 2008


This reminds me of the following case:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2051212.ece

Muslim juror ‘listened to iPod under hijab’Jack Malvern

A woman juror has been arrested after she was allegedly caught listening to an MP3 player hidden beneath her hijab during a murder trial.

The Muslim woman, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is accused of concealing the device beneath her headscarf so that she could listen to music during the testimony of a man who bludgeoned his disabled wife to death.

Judge Roger Chapple, presiding, said that he thought he could hear “tinny music” in the courtroom at Blackfriars Crown Court in Central London, but dismissed it as a figment of his imagination until another juror sent him a note.

The woman was arrested for contempt of court on the direction of the judge on June 27 and is bailed to appear at the court before Judge Aidan Marron on July 23. The arrest can only be reported now after Alan Wicks, 72, the defendant at the trial, was convicted yesterday.

The juror, who is in her early twenties, was discharged by Judge Chapple and given warning that her behaviour, if proved, would amount to contempt of court. Outside the court she was searched by a police officer and an MP3 player was confiscated.

It is thought to be the first time that a juror has been accused of listening to music during a trial. John Cooper, a criminal barrister, said that people found guilty of contempt received an average of three years in prison. “It follows a long pedigree of contempt cases including jurors falling asleep and, in one case, jurors who used a Ouija board before they found a defendant guilty,” he said.

The woman had allegedly tried repeatedly to avoid jury service. She managed to postpone serving when she received her first summons and successfully avoided serving a second time by claiming to have toothache. On the third occasion she asked to be excused so that she could attend a nursing course but was obliged to serve when she failed to provide details.

She took an oath to try Wicks, a pensioner who was sentenced to a minimum of 11 years yesterday for murdering his wife of 50 years, but drew criticism from Judge Chapple after she arrived late at court repeatedly.

Peter Clarke, QC, for the prosecution, requested on Thursday that the juror be discharged, but his application was refused by the judge because discharges should follow only for “very, very serious . . . improper behaviour”. The next day a member of the defence team thought that she saw a wire under the woman’s head covering. Another juror passed the judge a note during a break for lunch alleging that her colleague had been listening to music during the defendant’s testimony.

The judge called the Muslim juror into court on her own and told her of the allegation. He said: “You are going to be discharged from this jury. You will play no further role.”

The remaining 11 members of the jury found Wicks guilty of murder. Judge Chapple told the defendant: “This was a ferocious and dreadful attack. Murders are often described as brutal, but it seems to me that description is entirely justified in this case.

“The force used was substantial - a minimum of 11 heavy blows to the skull. You then sought to spin a web of lies and deceit to cover your tracks and seek to avoid detection, but as this jury has found that was as false as it was elaborate.”

He told Wicks, who has suffered a series of minor strokes and now faces the prospect of dying in prison, that he would have to serve at least 11 years before being considered for parole.

Offline dcs

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2008, 09:46:20 AM »


The main issue is that the accused can't see the juror....which is his/her right.
I guess that law there in case the accused realises he knows the juror previously and there may be a conflict of interest or likelyhood of bias.  I eh know but I guessing this right of the accused to see the juror doesn't exist in muslim states.....if they have jurys.

This is exactly the issue...but really and truly, who gives a fack?  Send de 'oman home and pick somebody else nuh?  steups

i think the problem is that this is one of them precedent cases.....so maybe the judge studying this will play a big role in how this is dealt with in the future.  would like to see the muslim community/organizations chime in and help come up with a solution...this is where they can be of service to the nation to solve something.

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2008, 10:20:31 AM »
If she wants to wear the burka in court,  she can't be a juror. I really don't see any moral dilemma here.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 12:00:37 PM by Jah Gol »

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2008, 12:00:03 PM »
If she wants to wear the burka0in court,  she can't be a juror. I really don't see any moral dilemma here.

I doh agree.  Just because our history and society come out of a christian/western background doesn't mean all the laws and customs we have trump everything.  We too young to say we not going to evolve...the more we evolve the closer our institutions come to being more suited for us.
It have too many muslims in our country to say they excluded because that aspect of their beliefs conflicts with the status quo. 
I don't think this issue is without some solutions if people took the time and effort to come up with something.  It might take some compromise on both sides....the current laws and maybe what the muslim community decides is acceptable or not.

Ah mean....what if we were a muslim state...think of how many difficulties it would create for people....u wudn't want compromise?

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2008, 01:06:00 PM »
If she wants to wear the burka0in court,  she can't be a juror. I really don't see any moral dilemma here.

I doh agree.  Just because our history and society come out of a christian/western background doesn't mean all the laws and customs we have trump everything.  We too young to say we not going to evolve...the more we evolve the closer our institutions come to being more suited for us.
It have too many muslims in our country to say they excluded because that aspect of their beliefs conflicts with the status quo. 
I don't think this issue is without some solutions if people took the time and effort to come up with something.  It might take some compromise on both sides....the current laws and maybe what the muslim community decides is acceptable or not.

Ah mean....what if we were a muslim state...think of how many difficulties it would create for people....u wudn't want compromise?
From what I know the burka is not a requirement of Islam. What's more is only a small minority of Muslim women in Trinidad actually wear the burka. How does the state compromise the right to be judged by a jury of your peers, which implicitly gives you the right to see the jury. I think the individual and not the state should make the compromise.

Btw in most Islamic states the judge is prosecutor, jury, and arbiter.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2008, 09:51:04 PM »
If she wants to wear the burka0in court,  she can't be a juror. I really don't see any moral dilemma here.

I doh agree.  Just because our history and society come out of a christian/western background doesn't mean all the laws and customs we have trump everything.  We too young to say we not going to evolve...the more we evolve the closer our institutions come to being more suited for us.
It have too many muslims in our country to say they excluded because that aspect of their beliefs conflicts with the status quo. 
I don't think this issue is without some solutions if people took the time and effort to come up with something.  It might take some compromise on both sides....the current laws and maybe what the muslim community decides is acceptable or not.

Ah mean....what if we were a muslim state...think of how many difficulties it would create for people....u wudn't want compromise?

dcs when you say this is one of those precedent cases, that's precisely the point I was getting at.  This is a case of first impression, as it's called...meaning the issue hasn't come up before in court.  My dismissal of this as a non-issue is because I think this amounts to a little bit of judicial grandstanding on the part of the judge...she wants that her name go down in the history books for having had some decisive role for the rights of muslim women, as I see it.

From a purely logical standpoint, this is no different than if the juror was to confess some bias that would be detrimental to the defendant.  For instance, jurors are routinely struck for their moral beliefs, revealed during pre-trial questioning.  Assume for a minute that her 'religious' beliefs were that accused murderers be executed, no trial no mitigating circumstances.  Would you as a defense attorney want such a hostile juror trying your client?  Of course not, she would clearly be a detriment to your defendant.  The defendant has a right to be tried by his peers, and within that right is the right to know who stands on judgment of him.  If ever a conflict should arise inside of the courtroom between the rights of a defendant and the rights of a juror...get rid of the juror, s/he has nothing at stake, whereas the defendant has everything at stake.

There is no room for moral or religious considerations...why risk a mistrial, or having a verdict overturned on appeal all because one juror insisted that she must hide her face?  Trials are extremely expensive and a huge strain on resources, say nothing of time...why risk having to do it all over again...all in the name of some philosophical or rhetorical exercise?  That is pretty much what this amounts to...I really don't see what the grand issue is.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 09:53:04 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline dcs

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2008, 08:35:21 PM »

What about muslim women using this as a way to get out of jury duty...never wear burka before but that can't be proved so they pardoned.

What about that other story where the juror was listening to music on an i-pod or something...was that a burka?  I think it was England...how do those other countries deal with the burka issue?

Offline Bakes

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2008, 10:04:43 PM »

What about muslim women using this as a way to get out of jury duty...never wear burka before but that can't be proved so they pardoned.

What about that other story where the juror was listening to music on an i-pod or something...was that a burka?  I think it was England...how do those other countries deal with the burka issue?
I don't think they wear the burka....the head apparently was covered in the Ipod case, but it's unlikely the face was.  But I don't know for sure.

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2008, 11:09:03 AM »
Should Muslim juror remove veil?
Newsday
By FRANCIS JOSEPH Saturday, January 19 2008


click on pic to zoom inA woman in full Muslim garb in Woodford Square, Port-of-Spain....THE ISSUE of a female Muslim juror wearing a burka (the veil covering her face) has now gone public as a judge has sent letters out to the religious community seeking their views on the subject.

It goes a bit further as the Supreme Court will advertise the matter in a daily newspaper for the next two weeks alerting the public. The advertisement invites interested persons to come forward and contribute to the debate.

The public-interest advertisement will be similar to what is produced in accordance with the Judicial Review Act 2000.

The matter which has been before Madame Justice Joan Charles, came up for hearing in the Port- of-Spain High Court yesterday. Submissions were received from Director of Public Prosecutions Geoffrey Henderson, Christopher Hamel-Smith SC, representing the Attorney General, and Ravi Rajcoomar on behalf of the Law Association, among others.

In the end, Charles ordered that the matter be advertised for two weeks. She then adjourned the matter to February, by which time the public’s contribution should be known.

The issue arose when a Muslim woman was called as a potential juror before Charles in December.

The woman said she was a Muslim and she dresses in full garb because she is a Muslim scholar. She graduated from the Dar Ul Uloom in Cunupia. She said she is affiliated to the Masjid-ul- Muttageen at Munroe Road, Cunupia.

She told the court, “I have to dress like this. It is not that I have to, it is a choice, either you dress like this or you can dress with the normal hijab.

Judge: “Oh, so you chose it, you have the option under the tenets of your faith to either use the normal hijab, which is the veil around here (the face)?

“Charles asked whether the potential juror was going to deal with this matter legally. “Do you think that you would want to have your interest represented? Would you, either the particular Masjid to which you belong, or you or your husband wish to have legal representation to argue your point of view?”

Juror: “Argue on what grounds? In that I would have to raise my veil or something? To raising the veil for the accused alone?”

Judge: “The real issue really is whether in the Hall of Justice, in the court, you be permitted to attend like that, as a juror, and the issue is of course that the accused must see your face and throughout the trial, not just once you show him and then you put it back on. The jurors will need to know that persons who are sitting amongst them is the same person and the jurors, as you would know would be made up of both men and women, the lawyers, everybody here.”

Juror: “I cannot raise my veil, this is my religion. I cannot here.”

The Muslim juror felt that the matter should be sorted out because it could come up again, and that other Muslim women would be called.


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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2008, 11:44:15 AM »

good for her.


Offline Bakes

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2008, 12:31:00 PM »
Quote
Judge: “Oh, so you chose it, you have the option under the tenets of your faith to either use the normal hijab, which is the veil around here (the face)?

“Charles asked whether the potential juror was going to deal with this matter legally. “Do you think that you would want to have your interest represented? Would you, either the particular Masjid to which you belong, or you or your husband wish to have legal representation to argue your point of view?”

Argue what ****ing point of view??????  She not on friggin trial, send de damn woman home and leh we move on


steups

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2008, 01:24:54 PM »
Quote
Judge: “Oh, so you chose it, you have the option under the tenets of your faith to either use the normal hijab, which is the veil around here (the face)?
“Charles asked whether the potential juror was going to deal with this matter legally. “Do you think that you would want to have your interest represented? Would you, either the particular Masjid to which you belong, or you or your husband wish to have legal representation to argue your point of view?”
Argue what ****ing point of view??????  She not on friggin trial, send de damn woman home and leh we move on
steups
:applause: :applause:
well said
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2008, 11:20:50 PM »

All muslim women should be exempt from jury duty then.  All they hadda say is that in court I want to wear a burka.

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2008, 05:43:59 AM »

All muslim women should be exempt from jury duty then.  All they hadda say is that in court I want to wear a burka.

In a multi cultured society would not having muslim women in the jury affect the " jury of peers rule" ?
What I mean is , wouldn't a muslim woman's point of view during deliberations be missed at some time or other to the detriment of the system ?
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline Bakes

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2008, 03:08:20 PM »

All muslim women should be exempt from jury duty then.  All they hadda say is that in court I want to wear a burka.

Two things:
 
1. It is very easy to get off jury duty...I'm not sure if you've ever been called.  All you have to do is display some bias (or propensity for bias) one way or another, deliberate or not and you're excluded.  No questions asked.  Not sure how it works in TnT, but at least that's how it is in many other jurisdictions, including the US.  If that same woman presented herself for duty and the defendant himself was a practicing muslim, that would be sufficient to get her struck from duty.

2. Jury duty is a privilege, not a right.  A defendant has a right to a fair trial.  Jurors have no commiserate right.  So I fail to see what the issue is here.  Is it the place of the secular society to conform to the religious?  Or should the religious conform as necessary?  Where do you draw the line?  If one of 'Mother Earth's' followers presents himself for jury duty sans clothing, claiming that the wearing of garments contravenes the edicts of his faith...should we start another national debate to consider the issue?


dcs...as admirable as your efforts to advocate for this woman are, they're really being wasted on what is essentially a non-issue.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 03:11:23 PM by Bake n Shark »

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Re: Juror: Only my husband can see - THOUGHTS ???
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2008, 11:58:09 PM »

I see it more as a duty than a right or priviledge. Who really wants to do it anyway (consider is months sometimes).  That same muslim woman who was listening to the music...she self had try to get out of the jury duty and had get blank by the judge...I think more than once.  Ent u is get fine for not showing up or trying to shirk your duty?

I dunno how it is but to me it come like when the police walking through the promenade looking to pull people in for them Identification Lineups....RUN  lol 

 

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