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Offline Bally

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TTFF: No backing down.
« on: March 08, 2008, 03:18:06 PM »
No backing down.
By: Shaun Fuentes (TTFF).


The Trinidad and Tobago Football Federation will not stand down as it pertains to statements by Sunderland manager Roy Keane in reference to an international call up for midfielder Carlos Edwards for this country’s upcoming friendly international against Jamaica.

Keane, in statements to the UK Press on Friday, indicated that he was not in favour of the TTFF’s invitation for the player for what is its highest profile international warm up for 2008 so far as it prepares for the 2010 World Cup qualification bid.

Edwards is currently back in full training and played a practice game on Friday and is likely to feature for the Sunderland Reserves against Manchester United next week.

"I'm surprised Carlos has been called up," said Keane. "He's played one, two games in the last seven, eight, nine months. Maybe I need to make a call to their manager. Maybe they're not aware of that.”

Keane also hinted that he may be reluctant to release Kenwyne Jones for the Jamaica game as Sunderland clashes with West Ham United two days later.

“We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. We've a tough game on Sunday– just as long as Kenwyne is available for that,” Keane added.

The Jamaica game falls on a FIFA international date and in an immediate response, TTFF Special Advisor Jack Warner said that the local governing body will not back down against Sunderland nor any other club that tries to withhold players from being part of its preparations for the 2010 World Cup qualifiers.

“Maybe Keane needs to be reminded of the FIFA rules on matters like this one. Had it been an African country, of any size, he would not even have contemplated any battle of any kind,” Warner stated from Cairo, Egypt where he is on FIFA business, heading an inspection visit for that country’s hosting of the 2009 FIFA World Youth Championship.

“It tells you of the contempt a few English coaches continue to have for the countries in the Caribbean especially a country like Trinidad & Tobago. Like Keane, Trinidad & Tobago will no doubt cross the Edwards' bridge when it comes to it,” Warner further stated.

Edwards is yet to been seen in T&T colours by head coach Francisco Maturana and the Colombian is keen to have the former Luton Town star as part of his plans with qualifiers quickly approaching. Maturana will continue his policy of rotating players, particularly the overseas-based pros before settling on a stable squad. Late last month Edwards also indicated that he was eyeing the Jamaica game and was anticipating a return to the T&T team once he had recovered from the injury by then.

For the Jamaica encounter, Maturana has called up Dutch-based professional Darryl Roberts and Kenwyne Jones as the overseas-based forwards, preferring to use those two over in form strikers Stern John and Jason Scotland, both currently among the top scorers in the English Championship and League One respectively.

“There are some players we have already seen and we know what they can offer. Now we will continue to look at some of the other players. We will give some a chance as we see necessary before coming up with the best possible team. It is important that we have these players involved in some form (in the preparations) from as early as possible. The game against Jamaica is important which is why we have to also have a player like Kenwyne Jones involved,” Maturana told TTFF Media.

The other overseas-pros selected for the Jamaica encounter in Kingston include Walsall goalkeeper Clayton Ince and Collin Samuel. Following prior discussions, according to coach Anton Corneal, Swansea City defender Dennis Lawrence was also recalled but is unavailable as he is still nursing an injury.

The National Team will resume preparations a week prior to the friendly international against El Salvador carded for the Marvin Lee Stadium, Centre of Excellence on March 19. From the players involved in that encounter, another team, inclusive of the five mentioned overseas pros will then be named to travel to Kingston for the match against the “Reggae Boyz”.

Jamaican Football Federation President Captain Horace Burrell previously hinted that Jamaica will aim to field a strong team inclusive of its overseas pros for the meeting at the “Office”.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 07:40:08 PM by Flex »
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Offline FireBrand

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Re: NO BACKING DOWN
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2008, 04:47:46 PM »
NO BACKING DOWN     
from TTFF online
For the Jamaica encounter, Maturana has called up Dutch-based professional Darryl Roberts and Jones as the overseas-based forwards, preferring to use those two over in form strikers Stern John and Jason Scotland, both currently among the top scorers in the English Championship and League One respectively.

 ???
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Offline elan

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Re: NO BACKING DOWN
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2008, 04:49:54 PM »
NO BACKING DOWN     
from TTFF online
The Trinidad and Tobago Football Federation will not stand down as it pertains to statements by Sunderland manager Roy Keane in reference to an international call up for midfielder Carlos Edwards for this country’s upcoming friendly international against Jamaica.

Keane, in statements to the UK Press on Friday, indicated that he was not in favour of the TTFF’s invitation for the player for what is its highest profile international warm up for 2008 so far as it prepares for the 2010 World Cup qualification bid.


Edwards is currently back in full training and played a practice game on Friday and is likely to feature for the Sunderland Reserves against Manchester United next week.

"I'm surprised Carlos has been called up," said Keane. "He's played one, two games in the last seven, eight, nine months. Maybe I need to make a call to their manager. Maybe they're not aware of that.”

Keane also hinted that he may be reluctant to release Kenwyne Jones for the Jamaica game as Sunderland clashes with West Ham United two days later.

“We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. We've a tough game on Sunday– just as long as Kenwyne is available for that,” Keane added.

 The Jamaica game falls on a FIFA international date and in an immediate response, TTFF Special Advisor Jack Warner said that the local governing body will not back down against Sunderland nor any other club that tries to withhold players from being part of its preparations for the 2010 World Cup qualifiers.

Jack Warner, FIFA Vice President.

“Maybe Keane needs to be reminded of the FIFA rules on matters like this one. Had it been an African country, of any size, he would not even have contemplated any battle of any kind,” Warner stated from Cairo, Egypt where he is on FIFA business, heading an inspection visit for that country’s hosting of the 2009 FIFA World Youth Championship.

“It tells you of the contempt a few English coaches continue to have for the countries in the Caribbean especially a country like Trinidad & Tobago.Like Keane, Trinidad & Tobago will no doubt cross the Edwards' bridge when it comes to it,” Warner further stated.

Edwards is yet to been seen in T&T colours by head coach Francisco Maturana and the Colombian is keen to have the former Luton Town star as part of his plans with  qualifiers quickly approaching. Maturana will continue his policy of rotating players, particularly the overseas-based pros before settling on a stable squad. Late last month Edwards also indicated that he was eyeing the Jamaica game and was anticipating a return to the T&T team once he had recovered from the injury by then.

 For the Jamaica encounter, Maturana has called up Dutch-based professional Darryl Roberts and Jones as the overseas-based forwards, preferring to use those two over in form strikers Stern John and Jason Scotland, both currently among the top scorers in the English Championship and League One respectively.

“There are some players we have already seen and we know what they can offer. Now we will continue to look at some of the other players. We will give some a chance as we see necessary before coming up with the best possible team. It is important that we have these players involved in some form (in the preparations) from as early as possible. The game against Jamaica is important which is why we have to also have a player like Kenwyne Jones involved,” Maturana told TTFF Media.

The other overseas-pros selected for the Jamaica encounter in Kingston include Walsall goalkeeper Clayton Ince and Collin Samuel. Following prior discussions, according to coach Anton Corneal, Swansea City defender Dennis Lawrence was also recalled but is unavailable as he is still nursing an injury.

The National Team will resume preparations a week prior to the friendly international against El Salvador carded for the Marvin Lee Stadium, Centre of Excellence on March 19. From the players involved in that encounter, another team, inclusive of the five mentioned overseas pros will then be named to travel to Kingston for the match against the “Reggae Boyz”.

Jamaican Football Federation President Captain Horace Burrell previously hinted that Jamaica will aim to field a strong team inclusive of its overseas pros for the meeting at the “Office”. (Photo shows Carlos Edwards warming up before a previous international friendly. March 8,2008)




 


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Offline Big Magician

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Re: NO BACKING DOWN
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2008, 05:28:57 PM »
economy class
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 06:09:15 AM by Big Magician »
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Offline andre samuel

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Re: NO BACKING DOWN
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2008, 05:43:57 PM »
steups!!

I wish common sense prevails!

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Re: NO BACKING DOWN
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2008, 06:23:24 PM »
So why they bringing Colin Samuel back and not Birchall, Sancho, Avery etc?  Haven't the coaches already seen him and know what he can offer?  ::)

Offline Sam

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Re: No backing down.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2008, 07:39:26 PM »
I think we should give Carlos Edwards a break unitl he's fully fit, but the TTFF dam right, we need to shut up Roy Keane, who de hell he think he is. Why didn't he just call the TTFF first and have a talk with them instead of running up his mouth in the press. We need to gain some dam respect from these foreign clubs, we are playing games during the FIFA calender just to accomidate these clubs and still they ringing.

Sancho and Avery may not be match fit, however we should not forget about them. Birchall too....

Ah glad Lawrence was called back, once he get better he will come in handy.

So I guess Stern and Scotland drop for the 2 games.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2008, 07:53:25 PM by Flex »
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Offline Dutty

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Re: NO BACKING DOWN
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2008, 07:41:48 PM »
So why they bringing Colin Samuel back and not Birchall, Sancho, Avery etc?  Haven't the coaches already seen him and know what he can offer?  ::)

I guess Maturana puppet strings a little thicker than originally thought
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Re: NO BACKING DOWN
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2008, 07:53:53 PM »
So why they bringing Colin Samuel back and not Birchall, Sancho, Avery etc?  Haven't the coaches already seen him and know what he can offer?  ::)

I guess Maturana puppet strings a little thicker than originally thought
how it does go again?
right......
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Offline Trini _2026

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2008, 07:54:59 PM »
Not a word from camps  :-X
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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2008, 07:58:14 PM »
where is Birchal?  ???
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Offline weary1969

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2008, 08:29:12 PM »
Birchall check d y we hate Corneal thread. Who Keane is d man payin Carlos right now although he eh fit. If he did get injured on JW watch just ask Noreiga
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Offline vale

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2008, 09:22:56 PM »
Another club vs country issue. I would like to see the MLS complain about preventing Bechham playing for England should he be called for National duty.

Offline weary1969

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2008, 09:29:44 PM »
Good sense wit d TTFF
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Offline Victor

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2008, 10:27:19 PM »
Respect is something you have to earn. Alas, the TTFF never misses an opportunity to lose respect and credibility.

Roy Keane is acting the way he is because the TTFF has clearly showed him how unprofessional, disrespectful and incredulous they are as an organization.

At this stage in Carlos Edwards’ recovery from major injuries - and still not yet fully recovered - he has no business coming back to play for Jack Warner and his puppets.

Fu#k the TTFF. They are a bunch of selfish greedy bastards.

Offline Big Magician

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2008, 06:13:32 AM »
Ah Find Maturana Playing de "Kenwyne Jones" trump card....flavor of the month bizness..... big friggin mistake
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Offline Ngozi

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2008, 12:19:21 PM »
I remember Ronnie Muage come and battle for TT and get his foot broken which effectively ended his career somewhat i think his team got relegated I'm not certain ...it's obvious to me that the ttff doesnt care about their players ...... I hope Carlos doesnt play cuz if that man come back and hurt himself again before he ready to play it could be long term psychological damage and knowing the ttff they will probably send him back late  in economy

Offline Bakes

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2008, 12:26:23 PM »
I remember Ronnie Muage come and battle for TT and get his foot broken which effectively ended his career somewhat i think his team got relegated I'm not certain ...it's obvious to me that the ttff doesnt care about their players ...... I hope Carlos doesnt play cuz if that man come back and hurt himself again before he ready to play it could be long term psychological damage and knowing the ttff they will probably send him back late  in economy

In addition to all that you say...this is the man bread and butter, and at 30-31 he won't be seeing another long term contract in his future so Sunderland has to be his priority.  We as Soca Warrior supporters may not like to hear that but at the end of the day Carlos needs to look after Carlos.

Offline grimm01

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2008, 02:09:08 PM »
No backing down.

“It tells you of the contempt a few English coaches continue to have for the countries in the Caribbean especially a country like Trinidad & Tobago. Like Keane, Trinidad & Tobago will no doubt cross the Edwards' bridge when it comes to it,” Warner further stated.


Warner could talk real foolishness when he ready. What contempt Keane showing for T&T? De man have 3 T&T international players on his roster, one of whom he paid $6M to get.

Carlos now coming off a series of injuries, eh play ah competitive first squad match in months and you want to bring him to play before he fully match fit? If anybody showing contempt, it is the TTFF for not taking men health & livelihood into consideration. Judging by past performance, if Carlos go and get injured, is him and Sunderland to ketch because dey ent getting shit from Jack & dem fools.

Offline grskywalker

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Re: No backing down.
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2008, 06:30:52 PM »
I think we should give Carlos Edwards a break unitl he's fully fit, but the TTFF dam right, we need to shut up Roy Keane, who de hell he think he is. Why didn't he just call the TTFF first and have a talk with them instead of running up his mouth in the press. We need to gain some dam respect from these foreign clubs, we are playing games during the FIFA calender just to accomidate these clubs and still they ringing.

Sancho and Avery may not be match fit, however we should not forget about them. Birchall too....

Ah glad Lawrence was called back, once he get better he will come in handy.

So I guess Stern and Scotland drop for the 2 games.

This is so much nonsense, I don't know what them coaches and TTFF thinking. LEAVE Carlos for the time being, god forbid he come here and they f up he foot again and out for another 4 months neither Trinidad or Sunderland could afford that, so leh we get the report from Sunderland first before we go demanding any services. The TTFF need to make sure that the team physio is in communication with Sunders and that any injuries will be taken care of. This is one time Carlos should choose club over country.
As for Scotland and Stern I am confused, them men scoring a goal a game and they ain't get pick, and Birchie oh gorm man what going on???!!!

Offline kentsoulman

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Re: No backing down.
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2008, 04:08:42 AM »
I think we should give Carlos Edwards a break unitl he's fully fit, but the TTFF dam right, we need to shut up Roy Keane, who de hell he think he is. Why didn't he just call the TTFF first and have a talk with them instead of running up his mouth in the press. We need to gain some dam respect from these foreign clubs, we are playing games during the FIFA calender just to accomidate these clubs and still they ringing.

Sancho and Avery may not be match fit, however we should not forget about them. Birchall too....

Ah glad Lawrence was called back, once he get better he will come in handy.

So I guess Stern and Scotland drop for the 2 games.


This argument may continue, but the outcome will be the same....if TTFF call Carlos and Kenwyne, they have to go. When Walsall refused to release Clayton Ince a couple of years ago, FIFA banned him from his next league match. That won't help Keane.

Those posters who seen embittered because English managers don't respect T&T should turn their anger onto TTFF. From this side of the pond TTFF look completely amateur and show no respect for their players.

Its like offering the car that you maintain and polish every week to a joyrider. You have no idea in what condition it will come back in, or even if you will have to go collect it yourself!

Until TTFF can show that they are  more professional, this attitude will remain.

It would have been easy for Maturana to get on the phone to Keane (or Maturanas translator) and talk to the man. He could have ascertained Carlos's fitness and maybe promise not to play him, but just get him back into the squad on light training. He could have asked about any special training programmes to put him on, and promised first class return flights.

Instead, we have Warner demanding and threatening. This may get you a short term result, but it definately doesn't buy you any favours.

Carlos and Kenwynes value owes a lot to their World Cup appearances, nd Sunderland are reaping the benefits of that, so they have to accept the inconvenience of international call ups. But, likewise, TTFF must recognise the development and improvements of the players come from an excellent training and dietry regime at their club.

When you see the TTFF refusing to recognise a players union, poor match fees, economy flights and lack of respect for the players clubs, would you entrust a valuable assett to them?

I wouldn't put it past Warner to insist that Carlos plays at least 20 mins, just to prove a point. This is incredibly shortsighted, as its more important to have Carlos fit, and wiilling to play, in the qualifiers.



Offline kentsoulman

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2008, 04:13:59 AM »
Doesn't make sense why they make a big issue over Carlos, who probably won't be match fit, yet fail to call Scottie and Stern as well as Birchal, Sancho, Avery John.
Maybe Maturana will love these guys.
I cannot see a logical reason why he doesn't call them instead of local boys who are not in full training? This is the time to call them when you have guys at home who are not match fit.

You can only assume that the blacklist is still partially in place.  I mean none of us have seen Sancho play recently. So, is he fit? I'm damn sure Maturana doesn't know. However, he should make an effort to find out. I heard Sancho is training in Scotland, so hes probably fitter than the locals. I'm damn sure Birchall is still match fit.

Maybe Maturana needs to see a few more poor performances before he grows balls and asks to see these other players.

Offline Arimaman

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2008, 06:33:16 AM »
Doesn't make sense why they make a big issue over Carlos, who probably won't be match fit, yet fail to call Scottie and Stern as well as Birchal, Sancho, Avery John.
Maybe Maturana will love these guys.
I cannot see a logical reason why he doesn't call them instead of local boys who are not in full training? This is the time to call them when you have guys at home who are not match fit.

You can only assume that the blacklist is still partially in place.  I mean none of us have seen Sancho play recently. So, is he fit? I'm damn sure Maturana doesn't know. However, he should make an effort to find out. I heard Sancho is training in Scotland, so hes probably fitter than the locals. I'm damn sure Birchall is still match fit.

Maybe Maturana needs to see a few more poor performances before he grows balls and asks to see these other players.

Fella, I respect some of the things yuh say.  Say of the other stuff downright doh make no sense.  Sancho and Avery John.  They man playing at all?  You serious?  Because ah man training with some team in Scotland doesn't make him fit to play in an international.  Just ask David Beckham.  Ah mean we is a small island and everything but let's not get carried away. 

Avery John too old to play in the next WC so why call him back?
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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2008, 10:19:43 AM »
Doesn't make sense why they make a big issue over Carlos, who probably won't be match fit, yet fail to call Scottie and Stern as well as Birchal, Sancho, Avery John.
Maybe Maturana will love these guys.
I cannot see a logical reason why he doesn't call them instead of local boys who are not in full training? This is the time to call them when you have guys at home who are not match fit.

You can only assume that the blacklist is still partially in place.  I mean none of us have seen Sancho play recently. So, is he fit? I'm damn sure Maturana doesn't know. However, he should make an effort to find out. I heard Sancho is training in Scotland, so hes probably fitter than the locals. I'm damn sure Birchall is still match fit.

Maybe Maturana needs to see a few more poor performances before he grows balls and asks to see these other players.

Fella, I respect some of the things yuh say.  Say of the other stuff downright doh make no sense.  Sancho and Avery John.  They man playing at all?  You serious?  Because ah man training with some team in Scotland doesn't make him fit to play in an international.  Just ask David Beckham.  Ah mean we is a small island and everything but let's not get carried away. 

Avery John too old to play in the next WC so why call him back?

Everything he said is spot on...Avery is only a year or so older than Carlos, so if Avery is too old what does that make Carlos?

Offline Dinner Mints

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2008, 10:41:22 AM »
Doesn't make sense why they make a big issue over Carlos, who probably won't be match fit, yet fail to call Scottie and Stern as well as Birchal, Sancho, Avery John.
Maybe Maturana will love these guys.
I cannot see a logical reason why he doesn't call them instead of local boys who are not in full training? This is the time to call them when you have guys at home who are not match fit.

You can only assume that the blacklist is still partially in place.  I mean none of us have seen Sancho play recently. So, is he fit? I'm damn sure Maturana doesn't know. However, he should make an effort to find out. I heard Sancho is training in Scotland, so hes probably fitter than the locals. I'm damn sure Birchall is still match fit.

Maybe Maturana needs to see a few more poor performances before he grows balls and asks to see these other players.

Fella, I respect some of the things yuh say.  Say of the other stuff downright doh make no sense.  Sancho and Avery John.  They man playing at all?  You serious?  Because ah man training with some team in Scotland doesn't make him fit to play in an international.  Just ask David Beckham.  Ah mean we is a small island and everything but let's not get carried away. 

Avery John too old to play in the next WC so why call him back?

Everything he said is spot on...Avery is only a year or so older than Carlos, so if Avery is too old what does that make Carlos?
Actually Avery bout 3 years older than Carlos. But only 1 year older than Stern, so your point still stands.

Offline superoli

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2008, 10:46:53 AM »
maybe they could send they players back in the executive jet they buying ? ::)
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Offline Arimaman

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2008, 10:58:15 AM »
Doesn't make sense why they make a big issue over Carlos, who probably won't be match fit, yet fail to call Scottie and Stern as well as Birchal, Sancho, Avery John.
Maybe Maturana will love these guys.
I cannot see a logical reason why he doesn't call them instead of local boys who are not in full training? This is the time to call them when you have guys at home who are not match fit.

You can only assume that the blacklist is still partially in place.  I mean none of us have seen Sancho play recently. So, is he fit? I'm damn sure Maturana doesn't know. However, he should make an effort to find out. I heard Sancho is training in Scotland, so hes probably fitter than the locals. I'm damn sure Birchall is still match fit.

Maybe Maturana needs to see a few more poor performances before he grows balls and asks to see these other players.

Fella, I respect some of the things yuh say.  Say of the other stuff downright doh make no sense.  Sancho and Avery John.  They man playing at all?  You serious?  Because ah man training with some team in Scotland doesn't make him fit to play in an international.  Just ask David Beckham.  Ah mean we is a small island and everything but let's not get carried away. 

Avery John too old to play in the next WC so why call him back?

Everything he said is spot on...Avery is only a year or so older than Carlos, so if Avery is too old what does that make Carlos?

Saddest check yuh numbers.  Avery closer to 35 that he is to 30.  If what I said comes out to be correct, that makes a huge difference.  Don't live in the past.  If we have more the 6 or 7 men who was starting in the last WC, we have zero chance of qualifying.  Yuh must have new blood.  Soccer is a young man's game with the sprinkling of a few veterans. 
Arimian to meh heart

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2008, 11:06:21 AM »
some numbers to banter about

Name: Carlos Edwards.
DOB: 24-Oct-1978

Name: Stern John.
DOB: 30th October 1976.

Name: Avery John.
Date of Birth: 18-June-1975.
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Offline Coop's

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2008, 11:22:10 AM »
Can anyone clarify this situation for me?Jabloteh players got called up by the TTFF for the game against Jamaica,the TTFF was told the club was already committed to another engagement and can't have the players,i guess TTFF had to cool themselves,Carlos and Jones got called up by TTFF and Sunderland also have their commitments to deal with but TTFF not backing down,what is it really going on here,i've always felt managers have no respect for our Football Federation and they have themselves to blame for that because of their amateurish approach to everything,this is a problem we have had for years and still can't solve it,the last minuit hustle will not do it.

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Re: TTFF: No backing down.
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2008, 11:24:46 AM »
Saddest check yuh numbers.  Avery closer to 35 that he is to 30.  If what I said comes out to be correct, that makes a huge difference.  Don't live in the past.  If we have more the 6 or 7 men who was starting in the last WC, we have zero chance of qualifying.  Yuh must have new blood.  Soccer is a young man's game with the sprinkling of a few veterans. 
I see ah man who play ball with Avery at AU say he's around 31 so I went with that.  I see ah next man say he's 33.  I also say "a year or so older"...so even if I was to go "check my numbers" looks like I was pretty much in the ballpark...off by two years.

To you that may make a huge difference...to me 2 years and 4 months doh really amount to ah hill ah beans.  If Avery too old then Carlos ent too far behind him neither.  

As for Sancho he's probably as fit as Carlos is...and maybe even moreso since Carlos' injuries would have also affected his ability to train with his team.  So if you really want to insist that Avery too old or Sancho not fit enough and you using Carlos to make your case it really isn't very convincing either way.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 12:04:57 PM by Bake n Shark »

 

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