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Author Topic: Wim versus Maturana  (Read 14794 times)

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Offline dinho

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Wim versus Maturana
« on: April 14, 2008, 06:30:36 PM »
What a difference a coach makes..

Wim's position was that our local based just weren't good enough to make the grade and that his aim with the local crop of talent was to find the one or two that could mesh with the foreign based pool.. 

The overriding sentiment on this very board was that just about ALL of the local players weren't good enough for the international game and posters took turns bashing the quality during the Digicel and Gold Cup..

Now Maturana reach..

And in the space of a few months we have a 3 page thread titled, "Soca Warriors Depth". 

Men splitting hairs trying to figure out who go fit in we team and the overseas players places are no longer guaranteed places with prior unknowns like Keon Daniel, Khaleem Hyland and Akile Edwards pressing hard for places.. Is almost like in de space of a few months the entire local crop leap from 'poor' to 'promising'.

Look how de tide change.

What a difference a coach makes!

         

Offline Dinner Mints

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2008, 06:46:28 PM »
Honeymoon emotions. I wouldn't advocate getting carried away with them.

Offline Deeks

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2008, 06:57:36 PM »
Not so fast Omarl... The verdict is sill out on Pacho. Mine yuh, I like Pacho as a coach from the first time he take over Colombia and had them playing a cool brand of one touch ball. He had molded that side for sometime. But wait until Jack throw ah spanner in he wheel. Let see how he going to handle  Jack and his zig-zag mentality.

Offline kicker

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2008, 07:11:12 PM »
Not so fast Omarl... The verdict is sill out on Pacho. Mine yuh, I like Pacho as a coach from the first time he take over Colombia and had them playing a cool brand of one touch ball. He had molded that side for sometime. But wait until Jack throw ah spanner in he wheel. Let see how he going to handle  Jack and his zig-zag mentality.

Yuh missing the point. He's just saying that the coach's attitude toward the locals has turned once nay sayers with no faith in the locals into believers in the talent and potential of the local talent.  I think the real x factor is the lucky schedule against two poor teams.....but good observation nevertheless.

I also agree with Dry so. - honeymoon emotions..... All it takes a proper cutass from a quality side for peeps to write off the locals as below par once again.....regardless of who the coach is.
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Offline berris

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 07:34:04 PM »
Wim was working with de foreign based (WC team) and if wasn't for jackass wrangler with he blacklist 4cree he would have had these players at his disposal.If that team was not dismantled and continued playing,while introducing some of the local talent, we wudda be ah serious force in the Concacaf like never before.To the point where we, or at least I, cud say we have a damn good chance ah beating de likes ah USA and Mexico's big side ,and eh have to be in ah same old same old dogfight for the last spot..
Maturana have no bias here, jackass wrangler give him local players to work with and that is where he start.How far he will take a TnT team with mostly local players is left to be seen,but how far he will take a TnT team with our best players,who IMO are the foreign based players,I believe is to SA 2010 WC.
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Offline Quags

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2008, 07:56:25 PM »
Wim was working with de foreign based (WC team) and if wasn't for jackass wrangler with he blacklist 4cree he would have had these players at his disposal.If that team was not dismantled and continued playing,while introducing some of the local talent, we wudda be ah serious force in the Concacaf like never before.To the point where we, or at least I, cud say we have a damn good chance ah beating de likes ah USA and Mexico's big side ,and eh have to be in ah same old same old dogfight for the last spot..
Maturana have no bias here, jackass wrangler give him local players to work with and that is where he start.How far he will take a TnT team with mostly local players is left to be seen,but how far he will take a TnT team with our best players,who IMO are the foreign based players,I believe is to SA 2010 WC.

:applause: yep we had it all and jack blew it up.

Offline freakazoid

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2008, 08:02:08 PM »
u knw when i see d title i thought  they were competing in ah marble pitching tournament. u cant compare wim and maturana infootball. no way
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2008, 08:26:49 PM »
I could not explained it any better, Berris!!

Offline vale

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2008, 07:09:04 AM »
I still hold to this day that WIM was doing a good job. He was getting the results despite not having the foreign based at hand. He just could not keep his mouth shut!!!

Offline Dinner Mints

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2008, 07:23:47 AM »
I still hold to this day that WIM was doing a good job. He was getting the results despite not having the foreign based at hand. He just could not keep his mouth shut!!!
Yep.

But say what? Maturana does smile plenty and give man bounce, so...

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2008, 07:28:04 AM »
so ... that points to a different management style ...that hadda be part of the evaluation. Somebody write de nex line.

Offline vale

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2008, 07:32:40 AM »
The TTFF especially Mr Jack Warner like coaches and managers who are subsurvient and will do anything they say. From the time you talk about the problems of our administration and footballing standards, you are public enemy No. 1. AND THEN YOU NEED TO GET WUK IN SOME OTHER COUNTRY!!!!

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2008, 07:37:42 AM »
so ... that points to a different management style ...that hadda be part of the evaluation. Somebody write de nex line.
yeah....is like when in Rome do as dem Romans want of you to do, right?
I feel Wim was too much behind the Players ( as he went through all this back in 1974) and did not side enough with Jackula, so Jackula say "Aiee yeo Pancho" wid he, oui
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
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Offline Ponnoxx

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2008, 07:50:38 AM »
Confidence is a huge factor in the game of Football...I know alot of our local players have talent...No wonder US colleges always scouting we SSFL player using them to make their programs better and discarding dem...Dem them same dutty American does turn around and say we not good enough...besides the rant..... ;D....
Confidence is a big factor in football ... Wim showed local players no confidence by making those statements and acting foolishly towards them...We saw where they went to Gold Cup and performed admirably in my opinion...with some confidence who knows what they may have accomplished...Wim is a shithound in my opinion because a good coach should be able to inspire the players available to them...If he get better players ....the coach still have to motivate them.... Maturana has came in and at an instant he show he wasn't afraid to chose young players and local players...Men have to fight for pick...It have no ranking ting ... And with all that he got two decent results...I saying we have talent long time and did say since the last campaign that if we had played local young players and didn't make it I woulda be happy because I know now we woulda be destroying teams...I backing the coach because he showcasing we talent and working with what he get .....so far.....I mean what do you prefer.... A manager who only quarrelling for better workers or one who using what he have and doing decent with it....Dey could lose Wim for all I care....Go T&T!!!

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2008, 07:59:27 AM »
WIm is ah asshole.

he bad mout de league, de players and everything.  he go an say we culture is liming drinking rum under cocnut trees.

He was no good, I eh care if we locals lorse under Maturana...he is trying with what is at his disposal. Jack warner and de TTFF aside.

Wim was hired to coach T&T, yuh do de best with what yuh have and yuh encourage and develop what is at yuh disposal.

Wim cry he cyar do it with de locals, dem eh good enough, dey need to go abroad from young or else dey not professional.

If dat is true den he shoulda shut he facking mout and start developing a professional attitude among de youngsters jes like what Maturana doing.

Comparing Wim and Maturana is dotish.

Wim had he self ONLY in mind...Maturana seems like he put to do a wuk de best he can with what is available.

some ah allyuh dunces will say de blacklist etc.  I is ah man who does HARDLY ever agree with Ponnoxx, dis time he spot on.  Man here talking about T&T depth, we march into de office in Jamaica and pull out ah tie with youngsters.  Wim used to refuse games with ocals saying dey eh ready...whend e f**k dey woulda ever be ready.

I glad dat Dutch f**king faker gorn


Offline kicker

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2008, 08:06:27 AM »
Wim used to refuse games with ocals saying dey eh ready...whend e f**k dey woulda ever be ready.


I agree with alot of what you said, but which games did Wim refuse to play with the locals?
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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2008, 08:07:19 AM »
dat was allyuh man who was saying that, not me sah, real man cuss me and ting, now they swallowing their words bc i was right and they never wanted to admit we have talent in we local pool, i also spoke about dept of the sqaud long before small mag and them fellahs even dream about it :beermug:

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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2008, 08:33:55 AM »
If I never hear the name Wim again it wouldn't be too soon.

Didn't he refuse a friendly or two because of the local-based's lack of readiness or something to that effect?

Offline Midknight

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2008, 08:41:40 AM »
Reality check number 1:
Nobody was ever doubting that we had "talent" in we local pool. That would be nonsensical because most if not all of our foreign based were selected by the overseas clubs because they had "talent" that was recogniseable.

The fact of the matter is that "talent" alone doh take you no where. You need a certain level of professionalism. The prime example of that is the One whose Name we cannot Speak" (you boy TI).

Most of the overseas players were snatched up at a relatively young age and were inculcated this professionalism by their clubs and the countries in which they lived. Wim postulated (rightly or wrongly, but rightly IMO) that the system in place in Trinidad and Tobago did not allow players to develop that professionalism, and was even counter productive to such an endeavour.

He also rightly felt embittered towards the TTFF, because he was promised a Yaris (the Soca Warriors comprised of its veterans, and WC experienced youth, plus the eventual newer players) and when he actually got the job, found out that TTFF expected him to drive a Cortina - squad minus blacklisted to South Africa.

Reality check number 2:
He never "refused to play with the locals" You could accuse him of grumbling too much (ironically i remember some of his biggest critics saying that if he had any kind of balls he would not have stayed quiet about the blacklist in the first place, but when he eventually spoke up about it he get lambaste same way) and sappig the confidence of the local based (and you would be right on that) but the fact of the matter is that he took both essentially local based squads to the digicel and the gold cup.
What actually happened is that very few quality opponents saw us as worth their time playing without our WC contingent (by the end of 06 notice we went from playing Austria and Japan to not being able to get a match outside of Concacaf until AFTER the lifting of the blacklist and JAck coup for the England game). After having 2 or 3 cancel on us for those reasons, Wim made it very clear that he wanted the full squad.

Reality check number 3:
Doh let Gay and Adams fool you. De, Maturana squad is essentially the same men that Wim try (and that nuff men cry down) plus de men who now available since the "official blacklist" get lift.
3/4 ah de men who play since the year start is men who have been weighed and found wanted before and during wim De rest is men who have since come of age, or men that certain people trying to force ripe. In any case, when Wim was in charge, Gay, Adams and all dem youthmen so was training/playing with the U-17's. It had no way he could be bleeding them into the senior teams anyway.

Doh get me wrong, Pacho is probably a better coach than Wim even if is just because he have more experience, but Omar calling all ah alyuh hypocrites out loud loud. If Simmoes had tighten the screws on we and we did get 4, people wouldn't have been in lala land like they are now.

I go judge we "depth" when the honeymoon over...
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 08:45:27 AM by Midknight »
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Offline Dinner Mints

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2008, 08:45:15 AM »
He was no good, I eh care if we locals lorse under Maturana...he is trying with what is at his disposal. Jack warner and de TTFF aside.
As far as I know, a coach who losing is a failure. And you wouldn't care if Maturana losing? As long as is not Wim? Because Wim was harsh?

You doh want a coach. You want a foster father to hug up players and rub dey back and tell dem everything OK.

If dem men have any kinda serious professional aspirations but cyah handle when a coach being forthright and telling dem bout demselves without sugarcoat, dey not going to make it. Yuh tink Alex Ferguson have time to play stepdaddy if you not good enough?

Maybe that's why we have so many players in lower leagues or on unsuccessful trials.

Offline supporter

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2008, 08:50:06 AM »
Wim was working with de foreign based (WC team) and if wasn't for jackass wrangler with he blacklist 4cree he would have had these players at his disposal.If that team was not dismantled and continued playing,while introducing some of the local talent, we wudda be ah serious force in the Concacaf like never before.To the point where we, or at least I, cud say we have a damn good chance ah beating de likes ah USA and Mexico's big side ,and eh have to be in ah same old same old dogfight for the last spot..
Maturana have no bias here, jackass wrangler give him local players to work with and that is where he start.How far he will take a TnT team with mostly local players is left to be seen,but how far he will take a TnT team with our best players,who IMO are the foreign based players,I believe is to SA 2010 WC.

well said
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truetrini

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2008, 09:17:37 AM »
dat was allyuh man who was saying that, not me sah, real man cuss me and ting, now they swallowing their words bc i was right and they never wanted to admit we have talent in we local pool, i also spoke about dept of the sqaud long before small mag and them fellahs even dream about it :beermug:

God is de BOSS...

Is true what yuh sayong TI   Wim didnt want to play against mexico and refuse to play ah tourney in Saudi ah think

Offline christiano

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2008, 09:23:10 AM »
According to alot of men here.

Beenie was a shithong
Wim talk down local players too much
Mathurana ..... wait two months again.

Why dont one of the coaches on this form apply for the job ?

The truth is that most of our local players here play at a lower level than their international counterparts. Is it not fair to say that some if not most of them are ill prepared for international football ?

All the people here who criticising coaches, If T&T was a club side everybody woulda say is a shit side !

Just read the post and you will see.

truetrini

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2008, 09:34:56 AM »
He was no good, I eh care if we locals lorse under Maturana...he is trying with what is at his disposal. Jack warner and de TTFF aside.
As far as I know, a coach who losing is a failure. And you wouldn't care if Maturana losing? As long as is not Wim? Because Wim was harsh?

You doh want a coach. You want a foster father to hug up players and rub dey back and tell dem everything OK.

If dem men have any kinda serious professional aspirations but cyah handle when a coach being forthright and telling dem bout demselves without sugarcoat, dey not going to make it. Yuh tink Alex Ferguson have time to play stepdaddy if you not good enough?

Maybe that's why we have so many players in lower leagues or on unsuccessful trials.

What ah bunch ah unmitigated assness yuh spewing!!!   Who says we doh care if de locals lose under Wim or any other coach?

Wim did feel we lorse before we even agree to play de damn games...becasue in he damn dutch ninny mind we not good enough.  I agree that the standard is not de highest, but as a coach he job is NEVER to show players where they are, it is to show dem where dey could be!

If wim job was to rub players back and act like foster daddy den YOU cpuld be de damn coach..eh-eh..total assness.

His job was to develop technical proficiency, improve players tactics and ability to read the game and to develop a syastem and teach the players how to play in dat system.

Wim had no damn system nor did he inspire confidence .,.

All this bullshit about reality check 1 2 and 3...dis eh f**king sesame street...is not always go be sunny days!

The reality is he was a coward who had no ability to caoch odderwise he woulda have de balls like Maturana and take de damn chance.

If wim was coach we woulda hear how surprised he was de players did equalise, how we have ah long way tuh go becuse we like too much rum and coca cola under palm trees.

Wim was an asshole plain and simple...while none of de fans was saying we didnt have local talent, he certainly felt so!  I never heard him say one positive thing about the locals he instead stated over and over again how unprepared they were, how unprofessional they were and dat we weren't ready tuh play aty de international level.

f**k he and dat shit talk!

He did refuse to play with a local squad on several occasions...once against Mexico and against opponets in de middle east!  He said without our best team we wasting time!  He said dat...f**k he.

More shit talk about is de same players dat Wim had....is now what Matyrana playing...dey was dey with Wim is now dey start to play...even Whitley rededicate himself or so it seems under Maturana dan when wim de dunce was dey.  

And why would Wim not want to blood junior players if the potential was there?
Ent he is de one who talking about de need for professionalism and de only way to learn dat is to leave de land of liming under cocnut trees?  So why he didnt take dem same junior players and help dem develop professional attitudes?

Adu and dem play for US national team and U-23 too.

Other nations use players at junior level and at senior if dem have de ability.

Wim did never respect we football or nation..ah glad dat f**ker get shafted, he was doing de same to we all dis time.

yes I is ah f**king cuss bud


Omar, wim is ah shit hound...even if maturana get cutarse he trying new things and attempting to bridge gaps...Wim only bump he gum.  No one will argue dat we local league is de greatest, but it is what we have.

No one will argue dat we players are not all prepared for international play but dat is what we have...a very small pool..a damn tiny pool. why not try?  why not encourage and teaCH DE Essentials, instead ah shit talk about cocnut trees and rum/

nah!

Offline Dinner Mints

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2008, 09:43:42 AM »
He was no good, I eh care if we locals lorse under Maturana...he is trying with what is at his disposal. Jack warner and de TTFF aside.
As far as I know, a coach who losing is a failure. And you wouldn't care if Maturana losing? As long as is not Wim? Because Wim was harsh?

You doh want a coach. You want a foster father to hug up players and rub dey back and tell dem everything OK.

If dem men have any kinda serious professional aspirations but cyah handle when a coach being forthright and telling dem bout demselves without sugarcoat, dey not going to make it. Yuh tink Alex Ferguson have time to play stepdaddy if you not good enough?

Maybe that's why we have so many players in lower leagues or on unsuccessful trials.

What ah bunch ah unmitigated assness yuh spewing!!!   Who says we doh care if de locals lose under Wim or any other coach?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 09:46:03 AM by Dry So »

Offline weary1969

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2008, 09:46:55 AM »
Y all yuh comparin d devil wit Christ. Maturana is oui saviour he using College League players and we drawing with JA in JA. I done start 2 find d money 2 go SA. With Pancho all d ills have been removed we save like d bank of England.
Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2008, 09:50:38 AM »
Y all yuh comparin d devil wit Christ. Maturana is oui saviour he using College League players and we drawing with JA in JA. I done start 2 find d money 2 go SA. With Pancho all d ills have been removed we save like d bank of England.

stop acting like an ass.

We all know, even you who jes arrive know...that jack is a cancer to we football, and we jave a long way to go to see S Africa.

Noone in their right mind can believe that we can go to S Africa with Maturana and the team that went to jamaica.  We will need our foreign based players.  But Wim did nutten to develop and instil belief in the local base which will be needed for S Africa campaign.

So doh play dotish.

As long as Jack dey we have much to overcome...but as far as coaches go...yuh dare not put wim in de same category as Maturana
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 09:55:10 AM by truetrini »

Offline weary1969

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2008, 09:57:37 AM »
I neva know d JD of a coach is 2 instil believe in d local base players. I thought his job is 2 coach d best players avialable. I am so sorry thanks 4 d education I have been enlightened so now dat d local based has been enlightened we will lobby 4 Pancho 2 stay on so I can spend d SA money on a cruise and save 4 Brazil because d local based will b inspired and Rio we comin. 
Today you're the dog, tomorrow you're the hydrant - so be good to others - it comes back!"

Offline Filho

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2008, 10:04:21 AM »
trying to compare Wim and Maturana's attitudes is a joke

allyuh really trying to pretend you know what Maturana motives are. After what happen to Wim..how else you expect the man to move.

I wish him the best. i like how he moving so far. But only the daftest idiot would look at what happen to Wim and try and roll the same way. the new guy was bound to know all the right things to say and do..

i not passing any judgement. just saying it obvious tat Maturana was going to look like he had a btter attitude, whether he naturally so or not. Wim hand him a perfect blueprint of what NOt to do.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Wim versus Maturana
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2008, 10:26:53 AM »
ok bear with me on this one eh

what would have been the outcome if ALL the best players TnT had were playing right there in TnT and nowhere else?
AND there was NO JACKLIST?

I say that JACKLIST is one of the biggest "pack ah ass" jackula ever did to our football.
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

 

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