W/Cup bonus judgment next week.

[maxg]

Coops has to play "Sgt. Shultz ", to keep his conscience free

[Tiresais]

At some point you need to assess whether you want friends who act so, and whom you wish to be associated. Loyalty shouldn't be blind - if your friends are being dicks and ain't changing then you need to assess that.

[Flex]

Sancho disappointed in TTFA approach
T&T Newsday Reports.

FORMER TRINIDAD and Tobago footballer Brent Sancho is disappointed with the TT Football Association (TTFA) approach towards the almost eight-year-long bonus pay dispute, between 13 members of the 2006 TT World Cup team and the local governing body.

The players are determined to use legal means to gain full payment of the sum promised in 2013 by the TTFA and its president Raymond Tim Kee.

Sancho, the current Central FC managing director pointed out, “we agreed to a settlement on the basis that things would be paid at certain times. At the end of the day, this is why we’re in this situation. They’ve gone against their agreement that they pencilled up themselves.”

He added, “this was us coming to the table and agreeing to their side of the agreement. We are definitely entitled to more. We came to the table for the benefit and the betterment of football in Trinidad. We decided to settle out of court. To break the agreement after something that they decided they wanted to do, and to be in the situation that they are now after months of non-answers and promissory notes, we can’t continue this way.”

Referring to the financial struggles of the TTFA, Sancho said, “if you’re making an agreement of such, you must know that you have a source of income coming.

You can’t go anywhere in the world and make an agreement, under law and in the courts and come up with something (but) you don’t have the ways and means of doing it. This has nothing to do with the Ministry and anything like that.

“And, to add to it, they have the vehicle and the tools to even go further than that. They can go after the smoking gun, the past administrators who would have pilfered the coffers before, and they haven’t done anything. So you can’t just sit back and hand out, when you can get up and make things happen,” he ended.

[diamondtrim]

I was planning/hoping to stay away from this discussion and observe from the sidelines....vantage point is sometimes better there. Especially since I once advocated on JW's behalf.

Coops....I hearing loud and clear what you are saying or at least trying to say and I, for one, sincerely appreciate your attempts at objectivity.....

But saying that you're sympathetic toward the TTFF because they have some of your personal friends within or because they did for you, isn't the strongest foot to stand on. By virtue of that reasoning, the 06 guys have right to storm TTFF with swords and guns because of 'what the TTFF did to them'.

I remember defending JW against this bonus dispute to the hilt, but when faced with mountains of facts, the only logical thing to do is to reassess one's position. Blind loyalty has no place in modern times.

I can recognise and even accept that the TTFF are having difficulty to meet their fiscal obligations re:the debt settlement. But being under 'pressure' does not absolve them from what the court mandated.

After re-examining my position on this and other matters relating to JW/TTFF, it is crystal clear exactly how much JW held back our football. Granted he did great things, but our football was set back years at a minimum.

The only way to move forward positively is to rid ourselves of his fingerprints as much as we can. Pay the boys....let football get a clean slate and lets move forward.

Its just my opinion, but if these guys were half as greedy or vindictive as they have been made out to be, there easily could have been no Gold Cup or women's U20 world cup close call......just sayin

[Sando]

I was planning/hoping to stay away from this discussion and observe from the sidelines....vantage point is sometimes better there. Especially since I once advocated on JW's behalf.

Coops....I hearing loud and clear what you are saying or at least trying to say and I, for one, sincerely appreciate your attempts at objectivity.....

But saying that you're sympathetic toward the TTFF because they have some of your personal friends within or because they did for you, isn't the strongest foot to stand on. By virtue of that reasoning, the 06 guys have right to storm TTFF with swords and guns because of 'what the TTFF did to them'.

I remember defending JW against this bonus dispute to the hilt, but when faced with mountains of facts, the only logical thing to do is to reassess one's position. Blind loyalty has no place in modern times.

I can recognise and even accept that the TTFF are having difficulty to meet their fiscal obligations re:the debt settlement. But being under 'pressure' does not absolve them from what the court mandated.

After re-examining my position on this and other matters relating to JW/TTFF, it is crystal clear exactly how much JW held back our football. Granted he did great things, but our football was set back years at a minimum.

The only way to move forward positively is to rid ourselves of his fingerprints as much as we can. Pay the boys....let football get a clean slate and lets move forward.

Its just my opinion, but if these guys were half as greedy or vindictive as they have been made out to be, there easily could have been no Gold Cup or women's U20 world cup close call......just sayin

Then we need to get rid of Anton, Fuentes and Tim Kee if we want to start fresh because all of them were under Jack.

[Coop's]

Trust me i do understand u guys,it just seems like everybody here on the same page and that's wonderfull at least you all agree on something.

Having said that try not to fault me for being sympathetic to T&T Football,i come from a Football family which i started,i've got two brothers that played for St Marys and Maple,one was assist to Alvin as Snr mens national team Coach,i have a brother that played for Jabloteh,my daughter played for Mucurapo/T&T,my son Barataria Snr,cousin Liana Hinds national Women,Kevin Molino brother of my cousin Kevon Cooper.This is my last post,thanks and good-bye.   

[King Deese]

Trust me i do understand u guys,it just seems like everybody here on the same page and that's wonderfull at least you all agree on something.

Having said that try not to fault me for being sympathetic to T&T Football,i come from a Football family which i started,i've got two brothers that played for St Marys and Maple,one was assist to Alvin as Snr mens national team Coach,i have a brother that played for Jabloteh,my daughter played for Mucurapo/T&T,my son Barataria Snr,cousin Liana Hinds national Women,Kevin Molino brother of my cousin Kevon Cooper.This is my last post,thanks and good-bye.   

Oh good....ah was wondering when you would shut up. 

JW....I miss you... ...yuh killing me with this term of endearment. Grody....Ollie....why did you have to leave Mr. Cooper behind? He misses you.

[Bakes]

    Bakes listen may be i'm not making sense but it's something i've said in the past and i'll say again,yes JW/TTFA did shyt and were wrong,but it will not change the fact that the members are my personal friends and i'm very sympathic towards the association because of what it has done for me,i have to be a mad man to dispute a courts decision.

Coop's and there's nothing wrong with that, but I'm sure you could accept when yuh friends are wrong.  Here yuh lambasting the players as though they are the wrong ones.  If yuh not disputing the court's decision then how yuh could call the fellas 'greedy' for fighting to get what is rightfully theirs?  This is nothing personal against yuh friends, this is a business dispute and they just happen to be on the losing side.

[Bakes]

Sancho disappointed in TTFA approach
T&T Newsday Reports.

“And, to add to it, they have the vehicle and the tools to even go further than that. They can go after the smoking gun, the past administrators who would have pilfered the coffers before, and they haven’t done anything. So you can’t just sit back and hand out, when you can get up and make things happen,” he ended.

This doesn't even make sense.  Allyuh complaining about not getting paid because they 3-4 months behind on paying the settlement installment, but you telling them to go to court and sue?  Of course they should, I agree with that, but suing is not an easy option, it will be very expensive (lawyer fees, discovery, expert witnesses in the form of forensic accountants and auditors), and very drawn out.  You looking at another 3-5 years in court.  All of this forms part of the decision whether to sue or not.  Is the Association in a position to do that right now even if they wanted to?  And when they go to court and all they money tied up, how long you, Sancho, think you will be waiting to get your money?  Allyuh complaining about a 3-4 month delay now, what will happen when allyuh waiting years? Steups.

[maxg]

Sancho disappointed in TTFA approach
T&T Newsday Reports.

“And, to add to it, they have the vehicle and the tools to even go further than that. They can go after the smoking gun, the past administrators who would have pilfered the coffers before, and they haven’t done anything. So you can’t just sit back and hand out, when you can get up and make things happen,” he ended.

This doesn't even make sense.  Allyuh complaining about not getting paid because they 3-4 months behind on paying the settlement installment, but you telling them to go to court and sue?  Of course they should, I agree with that, but suing is not an easy option, it will be very expensive (lawyer fees, discovery, expert witnesses in the form of forensic accountants and auditors), and very drawn out.  You looking at another 3-5 years in court.  All of this forms part of the decision whether to sue or not.  Is the Association in a position to do that right now even if they wanted to?  And when they go to court and all they money tied up, how long you, Sancho, think you will be waiting to get your money?  Allyuh complaining about a 3-4 month delay now, what will happen when allyuh waiting years? Steups.

i was wondering about that to...I give Sanch and dem, the benefit of the doubt...and say..well them doh really want no money in truth, they just want to force TTFA to deal with the misappropriation of funds.  Cause once TTFA start that, everybody salt, just as the players themselves before were..merry-go round, and no victims getting paid, yet money dishing out

[Football supporter]

Sancho disappointed in TTFA approach
T&T Newsday Reports.

“And, to add to it, they have the vehicle and the tools to even go further than that. They can go after the smoking gun, the past administrators who would have pilfered the coffers before, and they haven’t done anything. So you can’t just sit back and hand out, when you can get up and make things happen,” he ended.

This doesn't even make sense.  Allyuh complaining about not getting paid because they 3-4 months behind on paying the settlement installment, but you telling them to go to court and sue?  Of course they should, I agree with that, but suing is not an easy option, it will be very expensive (lawyer fees, discovery, expert witnesses in the form of forensic accountants and auditors), and very drawn out.  You looking at another 3-5 years in court.  All of this forms part of the decision whether to sue or not.  Is the Association in a position to do that right now even if they wanted to?  And when they go to court and all they money tied up, how long you, Sancho, think you will be waiting to get your money?  Allyuh complaining about a 3-4 month delay now, what will happen when allyuh waiting years? Steups.

i was wondering about that to...I give Sanch and dem, the benefit of the doubt...and say..well them doh really want no money in truth, they just want to force TTFA to deal with the misappropriation of funds.  Cause once TTFA start that, everybody salt, just as the players themselves before were..merry-go round, and no victims getting paid, yet money dishing out

I think the point was that when the TTFA came with the settlement, there were possible options available. For example, TTFA could have said "guys, we ain't got no cash, you know that. But we will help you in anyway possible to go after it. Once you take out your money, the rest will be ours"

Fair enough, TTFA didn't want to go that route. But the route they chose was their choice, to which the players agreed. If TTFA had said "guys we'll settle, but we can't guarantee when you'll get paid and we'll also blame you for the lack of funding for our youth and womens programmes" I don't think there would be a settlement!

Sancho's point is that the lack of available funding is 100% due to TTFA's decision making.
As you say, Bakes, it's a long process, but they would be 20% along the way if they started proceedings last year. And 5 years is shorter than the players 7 years and the money owed TTFA is much more than the players are owed. And the players were willing to share the evidence that they had, so TTFA would have a head start and a smaller legal bill, perhaps.

That said, I am sure that TTFA set out to abide by the settlement and have been let down by who ever guaranteed the payments. But unfortunately, it's TTFA in the hot seat.

[elan]

I think what Sancho looking at it that the TTFA refuse to go after JW. I think if the TTFA went after JW the players would have chill out and wait until whenever to get their money. I even suspect that if with the backing of the TTFA they were able to bring down or get to JW, that would have been enough for these fellas.

However the "new" TTFA not looking to get their money back from JW and so apparently the players take it as "aiding" JW in his clean escape. So "you don't want to pressure JW we will pressure you" is what I suspect happening here. A game of corner?

[maxg]

"A game of corner?".. unfortunately from which, there will be no winners/beneficiaries, save a few law upholders, of course. Damn if yuh do, damn if yuh don't. Yet, such has always been how  money rich, majority ppl poor TT operate. "Just Do it" , then spend a liftime arguing about wheter it should have been done or not..and "Just do something else" and follow the pattern

[Bakes]

I think the point was that when the TTFA came with the settlement, there were possible options available. For example, TTFA could have said "guys, we ain't got no cash, you know that. But we will help you in anyway possible to go after it. Once you take out your money, the rest will be ours"

Fair enough, TTFA didn't want to go that route. But the route they chose was their choice, to which the players agreed. If TTFA had said "guys we'll settle, but we can't guarantee when you'll get paid and we'll also blame you for the lack of funding for our youth and womens programmes" I don't think there would be a settlement!

Sancho's point is that the lack of available funding is 100% due to TTFA's decision making.
As you say, Bakes, it's a long process, but they would be 20% along the way if they started proceedings last year. And 5 years is shorter than the players 7 years and the money owed TTFA is much more than the players are owed. And the players were willing to share the evidence that they had, so TTFA would have a head start and a smaller legal bill, perhaps.

That said, I am sure that TTFA set out to abide by the settlement and have been let down by who ever guaranteed the payments. But unfortunately, it's TTFA in the hot seat.

I don't know whether this is true or not, but it all supports the larger point that I have been making, the players need to be more reasonable in both their statements and their actions.  If you see genuine efforts being made by the new regime to settle the dispute and pay you, why go in the press and make inflammatory statements like this from Kelvin Jack?

“It is supposedly a different group in charge of the TTFA now but it is the same rubbish.”

As for starting proceedings earlier... so you're asking a cash-strapped TTFF to file suit against Jack at the same time that it's defending itself in court against the players?  Where were they to get money to pay two sets of legal bills on two separate cases?  Had they done that then they wouldn't be in position to settle with the players.  I'm not here to defend the TTFA, but I think the players are being unreasonable in how they're going about this.  Not only are their demands unreasonable, but much of their comments in the press are unnecessary as well.

[Football supporter]

I think the point was that when the TTFA came with the settlement, there were possible options available. For example, TTFA could have said "guys, we ain't got no cash, you know that. But we will help you in anyway possible to go after it. Once you take out your money, the rest will be ours"

Fair enough, TTFA didn't want to go that route. But the route they chose was their choice, to which the players agreed. If TTFA had said "guys we'll settle, but we can't guarantee when you'll get paid and we'll also blame you for the lack of funding for our youth and womens programmes" I don't think there would be a settlement!

Sancho's point is that the lack of available funding is 100% due to TTFA's decision making.
As you say, Bakes, it's a long process, but they would be 20% along the way if they started proceedings last year. And 5 years is shorter than the players 7 years and the money owed TTFA is much more than the players are owed. And the players were willing to share the evidence that they had, so TTFA would have a head start and a smaller legal bill, perhaps.

That said, I am sure that TTFA set out to abide by the settlement and have been let down by who ever guaranteed the payments. But unfortunately, it's TTFA in the hot seat.

I don't know whether this is true or not, but it all supports the larger point that I have been making, the players need to be more reasonable in both their statements and their actions.  If you see genuine efforts being made by the new regime to settle the dispute and pay you, why go in the press and make inflammatory statements like this from Kelvin Jack?

“It is supposedly a different group in charge of the TTFA now but it is the same rubbish.”

As for starting proceedings earlier... so you're asking a cash-strapped TTFF to file suit against Jack at the same time that it's defending itself in court against the players?  Where were they to get money to pay two sets of legal bills on two separate cases?  Had they done that then they wouldn't be in position to settle with the players.  I'm not here to defend the TTFA, but I think the players are being unreasonable in how they're going about this.  Not only are their demands unreasonable, but much of their comments in the press are unnecessary as well.

I'm not sure about costs etc, but I distinctly recall the judge ordering TTFA to bring Jack to court.

Now, most of the evidence required to prove that Jack was the man, was already in front of the court, while other evidence should have been available to TTFA (and if it wasn't - such as rental agreements etc - that in itself is evidence). So, I can't see how this would be infinitely more expensive. Yes, I agree it would incur some additional costs, but if need be, it would have been wiser to ask the support of CONCACAF, CFU or FIFA for this rather than to settle with the players. Once Jack was in court, the TTFA would have very little expense. The players were suing TTFA and TTFA would have produced Jack and the court would have dealt with him. TTFA's legal team would just need to prove a degree of separation between them and Jack.

But, as I recall, the new regime stepped in and offered a settlement. Maybe that was the terms of Camps and Grodens withdrawal? You go away and we'll deal with your mess and you get off scot free? Who knows? The fact is, TTFA chose to settle.

[Football supporter]

Bakes, just on this point:

    That said, I am sure that TTFA set out to abide by the settlement and have been let down by who ever guaranteed the payments. But unfortunately, it's TTFA in the hot seat.


I don't know whether this is true or not, but it all supports the larger point that I have been making, the players need to be more reasonable in both their statements and their actions.

You would appreciate that if person A offers to settle with person B in a court of law, and decides to borrow money from a friend, if that friend changes his mind, it does not relieve person A of his responsibilities.

I understand that you advocate the players giving TTFA more time. But it's not you and I who have been through the nightmare that the players have. Neither has Tim-Kee or Sheldon. What seems reasonable to us, may feel completely unreasonable to them.

I know you have stated that in law the players are right to complain, the rest is just emotional reaction. I can see both sides of the argument, but only one side has the legal and emotional high ground.

[Bakes]

I'm not sure about costs etc, but I distinctly recall the judge ordering TTFA to bring Jack to court.

This cannot be true... how could the court order anyone to bring someone to court?  The court has that power itself to subpoena any witnesses whose testimony are necessary for disposing the matter before the court.  The court suggested to both parties that they might want to add Jack to the suit, that is what I recall.

Now, most of the evidence required to prove that Jack was the man, was already in front of the court, while other evidence should have been available to TTFA (and if it wasn't - such as rental agreements etc - that in itself is evidence). So, I can't see how this would be infinitely more expensive. Yes, I agree it would incur some additional costs, but if need be, it would have been wiser to ask the support of CONCACAF, CFU or FIFA for this rather than to settle with the players. Once Jack was in court, the TTFA would have very little expense. The players were suing TTFA and TTFA would have produced Jack and the court would have dealt with him. TTFA's legal team would just need to prove a degree of separation between them and Jack.

I think you are seriously underestimating the costs that would be involved.  To prove that "Jack was the man" you'd have to prove that he stole money from the TTFF. There are reams of documents in the public sphere that point fingers at Jack, but documents don't testify, people do.  All of the WC Audits that were prepared, you have to get the actual auditors who worked in preparing the documents to come to court and testify as to the processes they used in arriving at their conclusions, and to otherwise authenticate what's written in the document.  I won't bother going into detail, but it's not as simple as you're making it seem.

But, as I recall, the new regime stepped in and offered a settlement. Maybe that was the terms of Camps and Grodens withdrawal? You go away and we'll deal with your mess and you get off scot free? Who knows? The fact is, TTFA chose to settle.

And they have not renegged on the settlement... so what's your point?

[Bakes]

Bakes, just on this point:

    That said, I am sure that TTFA set out to abide by the settlement and have been let down by who ever guaranteed the payments. But unfortunately, it's TTFA in the hot seat.


I don't know whether this is true or not, but it all supports the larger point that I have been making, the players need to be more reasonable in both their statements and their actions.

You would appreciate that if person A offers to settle with person B in a court of law, and decides to borrow money from a friend, if that friend changes his mind, it does not relieve person A of his responsibilities.

I understand that you advocate the players giving TTFA more time. But it's not you and I who have been through the nightmare that the players have. Neither has Tim-Kee or Sheldon. What seems reasonable to us, may feel completely unreasonable to them.

I know you have stated that in law the players are right to complain, the rest is just emotional reaction. I can see both sides of the argument, but only one side has the legal and emotional high ground.

You cannot wring blood from stone.  If you complain to a court, the court must be able to grant you relief.  The only relief available to the players if they go back to court is to secure a lien on the TTFA assets... already addressed early on.  Is this what the players are really asking for?  This is not about having "legal and emotional high ground" it's about common sense.  This was way before you got to TnT but I'm sure you know that this is the second time that the local governing body has been known as the TTFA?  Did you know what happened to the first "TTFA"?  Did you know that the same thing could have happened to the TTFF?  Guess where that would have left the players and their "legal and emotional high ground"?

[SWF Reporter]

Lies and untruths from the TTFA: Sancho’s stinging response to football body
By Brent Sancho (Wired868)

Letter from 2006 World Cup defender and Central FC managing director Brent Sancho to Trinidad and Tobago Football Association (TTFA) president Raymond Tim Kee and copied to general secretary Sheldon Phillips:

For the last 12 months, we have been continually told that TTFA is different from TTFF. You and Mr Phillips have stated that you will never operate in the same manner as (former president) Mr Oliver Camps, (former general secretary) Mr Richard Groden and (former special advisor) Mr Jack Warner.

And I was willing to give the new regime the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I have my personal disagreements with the TTFA over the 2006 World Cup payments; but I have sat back with an open mind and watched you and Mr Phillips try to repair the massive damage done to our game by the TTFF.

But I was astounded by comments made by TTFA media officer, Shaun Fuentes and a “TTFA insider” in Sunday’s Newsday newspaper.

Basically, we, the 2006 Soca Warriors, agreed to settle with TTFA over unpaid bonuses after seven years and two court cases. Note: we agreed to settle.

We agreed to settle for a specific amount offered by TTFA when we could have pursued a larger sum, which two courts agreed was rightfully ours, because we wanted to see football grow and prosper again in Trinidad and Tobago.

The terms of the settlement were simple: A lump sum payment and then several tranches of funds on specific dates.

However, although the initial lump sum payment was received, when the first payment date appeared in September, no funds were available. Nor (was there money to pay us) in October, November, December and now, January.

We never chose those dates, the TTFA did. This isn’t a gentleman’s agreement, it is a legal settlement. It’s like being offered parole and then immediately breaking it. It doesn’t matter how much of a nice guy you are, you broke your word and, therefore, you must face the consequences.

Mr Fuentes, whom I assume is voicing the opinions of you and Mr Phillips, says we should be patient. Why? These funds are over seven years overdue. Isn’t that patience enough? And then we still waited for another 3 months (since the last due date).

If I understand your position correctly, Mr Tim Kee, we should wait for however long it takes to receive the money we are legally entitled to. In which case, I suggest that every business owner who pays rates to the Mayor of Port of Spain withholds his or her payments.

It doesn’t matter. There’s no rush is there, Mr Tim Kee, you will be patient. But I’m fairly sure that the voters and taxpayers and your political allies won’t be pleased when Port of Spain goes bust because you haven’t pursued money that is legally owed to you.

It’s childish and ridiculous for you all, as intelligent men, to suggest that we be patient. After the abuse that we suffered from the previous regime of which you, Mr Tim Kee, was a senior member, why should we expect any different (now)?

Especially as Mr Fuentes’ comments reek of the same chicanery used by the TTFF. According to Mr Fuentes, you said that Shaka Hislop has been very sensible on the matter unlike the other players.

So, the TTFA is picking out Hislop as the sensible one? Just like the TTFF paraded Dwight Yorke and Russell Latapy as the sensible ones for accepting their offer to settle. And then, of course, Yorke received a Sport Ambassador’s post while Latapy got the job of national team coach.

So, what will the TTFA offer Hislop?

Unfortunately for the TTFA, Shaka Hislop has more integrity. Mamaguy him all you want, but he’s already said that he will stand with the players. Maybe he will be a less aggressive participant but he will not be bribed into turning his back on his team mates.

And then we have the sob story about the youths and women’s teams being underfunded because we have to be paid. A disgusting attempt to mislead the public and win some support from a population that was outraged by the shenanigans of TTFF and is waiting to see if TTFA is really the future or just the past demons wearing angel costumes.

The TTFA made a deal. If they decided to use money meant for youth development or to fund various programmes that was their choice. Mr Fuentes and friends can’t lay the blame at our feet.

If the TTFA wants to avoid returning to court in February, they are going about it the wrong way

The same public name calling was done by the TTFF. They called us greedy for wanting what was promised by them! They filled the press with untruths to win favour. But once the real truth was known, the public turned against them.

Mr Tim Kee and Mr Phillips should take note. The media officer who failed so spectacularly at the TTFF is now the TTFA media officer and he is attempting the same PR own goal.

Yes, we as a group have, quite rightly, publicly criticized the TTFA for failing to adhere to their promises. And the TTFA have the right to explain the delays. That doesn’t mean that we have to accept their excuses.

An open debate allows people to understand the situation. But this unwarranted attack on the players is Mr Fuentes reverting to his old tactics of arrogance and untruths.

How dare he criticise players for wanting what was promised?! How dare he place the blame for lack of funding for the youths and women at our feet?!

Just tell the truth, Mr Fuentes, the TTFA made a deal that it could not keep. Now the players are angry. Accept it. Stop making excuses and own up to your failure.

We keep hearing about the sacrifices, the tremendous effort, the amazing deals they have achieved all to keep the players happy. But the truth is very simple:

Any competent administration would have fully funded their youth programmes, their women’s teams and paid their players and coaches. How? By working with us to reclaim the hundreds of millions of dollars that were proven to have disappeared during the TTFF’s reign.

Stop blaming the players because you can’t keep a legal agreement. If you’re in a mess, it’s one of your own making. You have the evidence to get back the money that was taken, money that can fund your programmes for the next decade.

And while crying about the poor youths, how about taking back the CONCACAF Centre of Excellence? Our national team coach can’t find a decent surface to train on and you can’t afford to rent the facility that was built to develop the Caribbean’s footballers.

Mr Tim Kee, you, Mr Fuentes, and Mr Phillips may feel aggrieved about this letter, but if you really want patience, don’t follow the mistakes of the  TTFF and print untruths in the national press; because I, certainly, will defend my honour.

[Football supporter]

I'm not sure about costs etc, but I distinctly recall the judge ordering TTFA to bring Jack to court.

This cannot be true... how could the court order anyone to bring someone to court?  The court has that power itself to subpoena any witnesses whose testimony are necessary for disposing the matter before the court.  The court suggested to both parties that they might want to add Jack to the suit, that is what I recall.

Now, most of the evidence required to prove that Jack was the man, was already in front of the court, while other evidence should have been available to TTFA (and if it wasn't - such as rental agreements etc - that in itself is evidence). So, I can't see how this would be infinitely more expensive. Yes, I agree it would incur some additional costs, but if need be, it would have been wiser to ask the support of CONCACAF, CFU or FIFA for this rather than to settle with the players. Once Jack was in court, the TTFA would have very little expense. The players were suing TTFA and TTFA would have produced Jack and the court would have dealt with him. TTFA's legal team would just need to prove a degree of separation between them and Jack.

I think you are seriously underestimating the costs that would be involved.  To prove that "Jack was the man" you'd have to prove that he stole money from the TTFF. There are reams of documents in the public sphere that point fingers at Jack, but documents don't testify, people do.  All of the WC Audits that were prepared, you have to get the actual auditors who worked in preparing the documents to come to court and testify as to the processes they used in arriving at their conclusions, and to otherwise authenticate what's written in the document.  I won't bother going into detail, but it's not as simple as you're making it seem.

But, as I recall, the new regime stepped in and offered a settlement. Maybe that was the terms of Camps and Grodens withdrawal? You go away and we'll deal with your mess and you get off scot free? Who knows? The fact is, TTFA chose to settle.

And they have not renegged on the settlement... so what's your point?

Clearly, I don't understand the exact legal niceties. But I thought if you agreed in court to do X on a certain day and you fail to do so, you have failed in your responsibility? Isn't that why people have their houses, cars etc repossessed?

[Football supporter]

Bakes, just on this point:

    That said, I am sure that TTFA set out to abide by the settlement and have been let down by who ever guaranteed the payments. But unfortunately, it's TTFA in the hot seat.


I don't know whether this is true or not, but it all supports the larger point that I have been making, the players need to be more reasonable in both their statements and their actions.

You would appreciate that if person A offers to settle with person B in a court of law, and decides to borrow money from a friend, if that friend changes his mind, it does not relieve person A of his responsibilities.

I understand that you advocate the players giving TTFA more time. But it's not you and I who have been through the nightmare that the players have. Neither has Tim-Kee or Sheldon. What seems reasonable to us, may feel completely unreasonable to them.

I know you have stated that in law the players are right to complain, the rest is just emotional reaction. I can see both sides of the argument, but only one side has the legal and emotional high ground.

You cannot wring blood from stone.  If you complain to a court, the court must be able to grant you relief.  The only relief available to the players if they go back to court is to secure a lien on the TTFA assets... already addressed early on.  Is this what the players are really asking for?  This is not about having "legal and emotional high ground" it's about common sense.  This was way before you got to TnT but I'm sure you know that this is the second time that the local governing body has been known as the TTFA?  Did you know what happened to the first "TTFA"?  Did you know that the same thing could have happened to the TTFF?  Guess where that would have left the players and their "legal and emotional high ground"?

Actually, as I recall, TTFF went to govt to request that they change their name (it was created under an act of parliament, I believe) and Townley blocked it.

[Tiresais]

Interesting read, how is this joker Fuentes still in a job?

[Flex]

TO: Raymond Tim-Kee, President, TTFA
CC: Sheldon Phillips, General Secretary, TTFA
       Members of the press & media houses
27th January 2014 
 
Dear Mr Tim-Kee

For the last 12 months we have been continually told that TTFA is different from TTFF. You and Mr Phillips have stated that you will never operate in the same manner as Mr Camps, Mr Groden and Mr Warner.

And I was willing to give the new regime the benefit of the doubt. Yes, I have my personal disagreements with TTFA over the 2006 World Cup payments, but I have sat back with an open mind and watched you and Mr Phillips try to repair the massive damage done to our game by the TTFF.

But I was astounded by comments made by TTFA media officer, Shaun Fuentes and a “TTFA insider” in Sunday’s Newsday newspaper.

Basically, we, the 2006 SocaWarriors agreed to settle with TTFA over unpaid bonuses after 7 years and two court cases. Note: we agreed to settle. We agreed to settle for a specific amount offered by TTFA, when we could have pursued a larger sum which two courts had agreed was rightfully ours, because we wanted to see football grow and prosper again in T&T.

The terms of the settlement were simple. A lump sum payment and then several tranches of funds on specific dates. However, although the initial lump sum payment was received, when the first payment date appeared in September, no funds were available. Nor in October, November, December and now, January.

We never chose those dates, TTFA did. This isn’t a gentleman’s agreement, it is a legal settlement. It’s like being offered parole and then immediately breaking it. It doesn’t matter how much of a nice guy you are, you broke your word and, therefore, you must face the consequences.

Mr Fuentes, whom I assume is voicing the opinions of you and Mr Phillips, says we should be patient. Why? These funds are over 7 years overdue. Isn’t that patience enough? And then we still waited for another 3 months.

If I understand your position correctly, Mr Tim-Kee, we should wait for however long it takes to receive the money we are legally entitled to. In which case, I suggest that every business owner who pays rates to the Mayor of Port of Spain, withholds their payments. It doesn’t matter.

There’s no rush, is there, Mr Tim-Kee, you will be patient. But I’m fairly sure that the voters and taxpayers and your political allies won’t be pleased when Port of Spain goes bust because you haven’t pursued money that is legally owed to you.
 
It’s childish and ridiculous for you, as intelligent men to suggest that we be patient. After the abuse that we suffered from the previous regime (of which you, Mr Tim-Kee,  was a senior member), why should we expect any different?

Especially as Mr Fuentes comments reek of the same chicanery used by TTFF. According to Mr Fuentes, you say that Shaka Hislop has been very sensible on the matter unlike the other players. So, TTFA are picking out Hislop as the sensible one? Just like TTFF paraded Dwight Yorke and Russell Latapy as the sensible ones for accepting their offer to settle. And then, of course, Dwight received a Sports Ambassadors post while Latapy got the job of National Team Coach. So, what will TTFA offer Hislop?

Unfortunately for TTFA, Shaka Hislop has more integrity. Mamaguy him all you want, but he’s already said that he will stand with the players. Maybe he will be a less aggressive participant, but he will not be bribed into turning his back on his team mates.

And then we have the sob story about the youths and women’s teams being underfunded because we have to be paid. A disgusting attempt to mislead the public and win some support from a population who were outraged by the shenanigans of TTFF and waiting to see if TTFA are really the future or the past demons wearing angel costumes.

TTFA made a deal. If they decided to use money meant for youth development or to fund various programmes, that was their choice. Mr Fuentes and friends can’t lay the blame at our feet. If TTFA want to avoid returning to court in February, they are going the wrong way about it.

The same public name calling was carried out by the TTFF. They called us greedy for wanting what was promised by them! They filled the press with untruths to win favour. But once the real truth was known, the public turned against them. Mr Tim-Kee and Mr Phillips should take note. The media officer who failed so spectacularly at TTFF is now TTFA media officer and is attempting the same PR own goal.

Yes, quite rightly, we as a group have publicly criticized TTFA for failing to adhere to their promises. And quite rightly, TTFA have the right to explain the delays. That doesn’t mean that we have to accept their excuses.

An open debate allows people to understand the situation. But this unwarranted attack on the players is Mr Fuentes reverting back to his old tactics of arrogance and untruths. How dare he crticise players for wanting what was promised. How dare he place the blame for lack of funding for the youths and women at our feet.

Just tell the truth, Mr Fuentes. TTFA made a deal that they could not keep. Now the players are angry. Accept it. Stop making excuses and own up to your failure.

We keep hearing about the sacrifices, the tremendous effort, the amazing deals they have achieved all to keep the players happy. But the truth is very simple: Any competent administration would have fully funded their youth programmes, their womens teams and paid their players and coaches. How? By working with us to reclaim the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been proved to have disappeared during the TTFF reign.

Stop blaming the players because you can’t keep a legal agreement. If you’re in a mess, it’s one of your own making. You have the evidence to get back the money that was taken, money that can fund your programmes for the next decade. And while crying about the poor youths, how about taking back the CONCACAF Centre of Excellence? Our National Team Coach can’t find a decent surface to train on, and you can’t afford to rent the facility that was built to develop the Caribbean’s footballers.

Mr Tim-Kee , you, Mr Fuentes, and Mr Phillips may feel aggrieved about this letter, but if you really want patience, don’t follow the mistakes of TTFF and print untruths in the national press, because I, certainly, will defend my honor.
 
Yours Sincerely
Brent Sancho

[Bakes]

Clearly, I don't understand the exact legal niceties. But I thought if you agreed in court to do X on a certain day and you fail to do so, you have failed in your responsibility? Isn't that why people have their houses, cars etc repossessed?

No, people have their houses, cars etc. repossessed because they borrowed money and the houses, cars etc. stood as collateral.  You're talking about a lien action, which is different.  If the players want to go that route then let them.

Actually, as I recall, TTFF went to govt to request that they change their name (it was created under an act of parliament, I believe) and Townley blocked it.

If Townley blocked the request then how did they change their name?  All of that is immaterial anyways.  The original TTFA was dissolved, or wound down by Warner et al.  With the company wound down, it's legal existence, assets, liabilities (including debts) evaporated.  The TTFF was then registered in it's place.  I'm sure Townley and the players can appreciate that this too was an option for the new regime as they sought to move from the TTFF to the TTFA, and in doing so the players would have been left with nothing.  The new administration did not opt to go that route, instead in recognition of the merit of the players' suit, they sought to settle, under extremely difficult circumstances.  Yet this is the thanks that they are getting.  You and Sancho et al keep talking about the players didn't have to settle... well neither did the TTFA.

[FF]

If Townley blocked the request then how did they change their name?  All of that is immaterial anyways.  The original TTFA was dissolved, or wound down by Warner et al.  With the company wound down, it's legal existence, assets, liabilities (including debts) evaporated.  The TTFF was then registered in it's place.  I'm sure Townley and the players can appreciate that this too was an option for the new regime as they sought to move from the TTFF to the TTFA, and in doing so the players would have been left with nothing.  The new administration did not opt to go that route, instead in recognition of the merit of the players' suit, they sought to settle, under extremely difficult circumstances.  Yet this is the thanks that they are getting.  You and Sancho et al keep talking about the players didn't have to settle... well neither did the TTFA.

Just to clarify, the TTFA was never wound down or ceased to exist. A private company called TTFF and headed by one Oliver Camps was created to act as the agent of the TTFA.
The TTFA always was the entity created by act of Parliament to administer the local game.

As I recall.

[Football supporter]

Clearly, I don't understand the exact legal niceties. But I thought if you agreed in court to do X on a certain day and you fail to do so, you have failed in your responsibility? Isn't that why people have their houses, cars etc repossessed?

No, people have their houses, cars etc. repossessed because they borrowed money and the houses, cars etc. stood as collateral.  You're talking about a lien action, which is different.  If the players want to go that route then let them.

Makes sense. So, basically, if you agree a settlement, you actually have gained nothing if the other party reneges? Just wasted time?

Actually, as I recall, TTFF went to govt to request that they change their name (it was created under an act of parliament, I believe) and Townley blocked it.

If Townley blocked the request then how did they change their name?  All of that is immaterial anyways.  The original TTFA was dissolved, or wound down by Warner et al.  With the company wound down, it's legal existence, assets, liabilities (including debts) evaporated.  The TTFF was then registered in it's place.  I'm sure Townley and the players can appreciate that this too was an option for the new regime as they sought to move from the TTFF to the TTFA, and in doing so the players would have been left with nothing.  The new administration did not opt to go that route, instead in recognition of the merit of the players' suit, they sought to settle, under extremely difficult circumstances.  Yet this is the thanks that they are getting.  You and Sancho et al keep talking about the players didn't have to settle... well neither did the TTFA.

They changed their name, much like you can create an alias. The act of parliament still recognises TTFF, I believe. They tried to do it again, as I mentioned, but their move was blocked. So, now the players are the bad guys, while the TTFA heroes have been wronged? Do you really believe that they chose this route because it was better for T&T football?

[Bakes]

Makes sense. So, basically, if you agree a settlement, you actually have gained nothing if the other party reneges? Just wasted time?

If you agree (to) a settlement or not, you can only collect where there are assets to collect from.  As I said, if that is the route that the players want to go then let them go to court and have the court attach the TTFA's assets to the settlement, just as they attached the TTFF's assets to the judgment the last time.  How did that work out for them?

They changed their name, much like you can create an alias. The act of parliament still recognises TTFF, I believe. They tried to do it again, as I mentioned, but their move was blocked. So, now the players are the bad guys, while the TTFA heroes have been wronged? Do you really believe that they chose this route because it was better for T&T football?

The Act of Parliament recognizes the "TTFA" as FF points out... the "TTFA" didn't make any promises to the players, it was the TTFF.  The "TTFA" wasn't sued, it was the TTFF.  The "TTFA" doesn't own the debt the players are trying to collect on, the TTFF does.  Hopefully you get my drift.  The fact that the TTFA sought to honor the debt because it is the right thing to do, when legally they were under no obligation to do it, should make most reasonable persons want to be patient, give them the benefit of the doubt and work with them.  I said the players were being unreasonable, a word I've been consistent in using all along.  If you want to term them "bad guys" then that's on you.

Just to clarify, the TTFA was never wound down or ceased to exist. A private company called TTFF and headed by one Oliver Camps was created to act as the agent of the TTFA.
The TTFA always was the entity created by act of Parliament to administer the local game.

As I recall.

I may be wrong on the original TTFA being wound down, but the larger point remains, that "private company called the TTFF" is separate from the current TTFA.  Also, the involvement of Parliament is largely perfunctory, Parliament didn't create the entity, nor could it, lest it violates FIFA edict about government involvement.  I believe the proclamation is boilerplate language attendant to the formation of any company in TnT (or was at the time) rather than an official Act of Parliament... which would have made the TTFA a public/quasi-public entity.

[weary1969]

If Townley blocked the request then how did they change their name?  All of that is immaterial anyways.  The original TTFA was dissolved, or wound down by Warner et al.  With the company wound down, it's legal existence, assets, liabilities (including debts) evaporated.  The TTFF was then registered in it's place.  I'm sure Townley and the players can appreciate that this too was an option for the new regime as they sought to move from the TTFF to the TTFA, and in doing so the players would have been left with nothing.  The new administration did not opt to go that route, instead in recognition of the merit of the players' suit, they sought to settle, under extremely difficult circumstances.  Yet this is the thanks that they are getting.  You and Sancho et al keep talking about the players didn't have to settle... well neither did the TTFA.

Just to clarify, the TTFA was never wound down or ceased to exist. A private company called TTFF and headed by one Oliver Camps was created to act as the agent of the TTFA.
The TTFA always was the entity created by act of Parliament to administer the local game.

As I recall.

Move 2 d head of the class. D matter was being discussed by a Joint Select Committee of d Parliament Hypolite/Amery Brown and Fitzgerald Jeffrey was d PNM Gopeesingh and cyah remember d fella 4 d UNC. So Brownsugar and I got our friends and families to write these MPs and we painted the picture. When the PNM peeps asked questions the issue lapse. So it was d TTFA trading as d TTFF.

[Football supporter]

An example of how confusing it gets!
TTFF was an agent of TTFA. TTFA now operate in their own name again. So, how can they not be responsible for the debts created by an agent appointed by themselves? Just because the personnel may have changed, the entity that created TTFF is still responsible for the debt.
And, of course, Mr Tim-Kee was an executive of both, I believe.

[dreamer]

To Sancho and company,

You are doing the right thing and I am proud of you all who have the guts to stand up for principle. Legal arrangements must be respected. You owe money, pay it. The TTFF will never improve unless they learn a full lesson from this. If those in the "TTFA" want to give Jackula a bligh, then pay the price yuhself and learn the hard way. I would love to see football played with Beenie here etc, but if no justice then forget the damn football and seasonal jam and wine. Beenie doh come back until TTFA head honchos confirm that they have turned a full new page and turned away from the Jackula way of doing business. A remnant stench of Jackula is very off-putting.