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Offline Football supporter

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #810 on: July 10, 2014, 03:48:33 PM »
When one is without anything relevant to say, I guess there are two options: say nothing or spout  :bs:

I see you are just intent on being an ass... you will henceforth be treated as such accordingly.

I rest my case.

Offline Controversial

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #811 on: July 11, 2014, 08:22:53 AM »
When one is without anything relevant to say, I guess there are two options: say nothing or spout  :bs:

I see you are just intent on being an ass... you will henceforth be treated as such accordingly.

I rest my case.

clarify this for me, is any of the 100 million missing funds owed to the players?

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #812 on: July 11, 2014, 10:00:33 AM »
When one is without anything relevant to say, I guess there are two options: say nothing or spout  :bs:

I see you are just intent on being an ass... you will henceforth be treated as such accordingly.

I rest my case.

clarify this for me, is any of the 100 million missing funds owed to the players?

Well, yes. That's what the whole case has been about. However, the govt has "gifted" or "loaned" the players the outstanding amount, which would be repaid if the players receive any funds via the court proceedings.
It's very interesting that many people wanted the govt to step in over the last 8 years, and there were many discussions about how FIFA won't allow govt interference. Now, a mechanism has been put in place to do just that (albeit at a time that is politically beneficial to the govt), yet people up in arms. Similarly, there has been many appeals to force complete transparency, which, again, is the aim.  Supposedly intelligent people inferring that Brent Sancho is somehow conspiring to take over TTFA is ludicrous. Who, in their right mind, would want to take over that poisoned chalice. Maybe one day, but certainly not at this point.

Offline Controversial

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #813 on: July 11, 2014, 10:14:34 AM »
When one is without anything relevant to say, I guess there are two options: say nothing or spout  :bs:

I see you are just intent on being an ass... you will henceforth be treated as such accordingly.

I rest my case.

clarify this for me, is any of the 100 million missing funds owed to the players?

Well, yes. That's what the whole case has been about. However, the govt has "gifted" or "loaned" the players the outstanding amount, which would be repaid if the players receive any funds via the court proceedings.
It's very interesting that many people wanted the govt to step in over the last 8 years, and there were many discussions about how FIFA won't allow govt interference. Now, a mechanism has been put in place to do just that (albeit at a time that is politically beneficial to the govt), yet people up in arms. Similarly, there has been many appeals to force complete transparency, which, again, is the aim.  Supposedly intelligent people inferring that Brent Sancho is somehow conspiring to take over TTFA is ludicrous. Who, in their right mind, would want to take over that poisoned chalice. Maybe one day, but certainly not at this point.

is the repayment a stipulation by the govt or sancho has given his verbal commitment of returning the money?

what are the terms and conditions attached to that money?


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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #814 on: July 11, 2014, 10:19:00 AM »
When one is without anything relevant to say, I guess there are two options: say nothing or spout  :bs:

I see you are just intent on being an ass... you will henceforth be treated as such accordingly.

I rest my case.

clarify this for me, is any of the 100 million missing funds owed to the players?

Well, yes. That's what the whole case has been about. However, the govt has "gifted" or "loaned" the players the outstanding amount, which would be repaid if the players receive any funds via the court proceedings.
It's very interesting that many people wanted the govt to step in over the last 8 years, and there were many discussions about how FIFA won't allow govt interference. Now, a mechanism has been put in place to do just that (albeit at a time that is politically beneficial to the govt), yet people up in arms. Similarly, there has been many appeals to force complete transparency, which, again, is the aim.  Supposedly intelligent people inferring that Brent Sancho is somehow conspiring to take over TTFA is ludicrous. Who, in their right mind, would want to take over that poisoned chalice. Maybe one day, but certainly not at this point.

is the repayment a stipulation by the govt or sancho has given his verbal commitment of returning the money?

what are the terms and conditions attached to that money?



I'm afraid I don't know the answers to those questions. But it wouldn't be Sancho, it would be the 13 as a group, maybe via something drawn up by Townley?

Offline Controversial

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #815 on: July 11, 2014, 10:24:19 AM »
When one is without anything relevant to say, I guess there are two options: say nothing or spout  :bs:

I see you are just intent on being an ass... you will henceforth be treated as such accordingly.

I rest my case.

clarify this for me, is any of the 100 million missing funds owed to the players?

Well, yes. That's what the whole case has been about. However, the govt has "gifted" or "loaned" the players the outstanding amount, which would be repaid if the players receive any funds via the court proceedings.
It's very interesting that many people wanted the govt to step in over the last 8 years, and there were many discussions about how FIFA won't allow govt interference. Now, a mechanism has been put in place to do just that (albeit at a time that is politically beneficial to the govt), yet people up in arms. Similarly, there has been many appeals to force complete transparency, which, again, is the aim.  Supposedly intelligent people inferring that Brent Sancho is somehow conspiring to take over TTFA is ludicrous. Who, in their right mind, would want to take over that poisoned chalice. Maybe one day, but certainly not at this point.

is the repayment a stipulation by the govt or sancho has given his verbal commitment of returning the money?

what are the terms and conditions attached to that money?



I'm afraid I don't know the answers to those questions. But it wouldn't be Sancho, it would be the 13 as a group, maybe via something drawn up by Townley?

i think the 13 should be transparent and disclose the agreement with the govt, since they are asking for our fed and others to be transparent, we don't want a double standard...

anyone could say they are paying the govt back and then the govt changes and they are not held to that verbal promise... unless it is in writing where it stipulates a loan or gift to players with no accumulated interest that must be repaid within 7 years or so of receipt of recovered funds from the 2006 campaign..

if that is not the stipulation then there are ulterior motives at play and hence why bakes questioned the motives... bc the players are being very secretive about their deal and their intentions...

TRANSPARENCY.... if the players don't disclose the details then they are also wide open for criticism and speculative comments..

money can change players, just as it did with the admin, both are susceptible to unscrupulous dealings... 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 10:27:22 AM by Controversial »

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #816 on: July 11, 2014, 11:38:48 AM »
if that is not the stipulation then there are ulterior motives at play and hence why bakes questioned the motives... bc the players are being very secretive about their deal and their intentions...

Contro, I agree that there should be transparency, and I hope there will be. The players have made their intentions very clear in the press....to continue until the missing money is accounted for and if there is wrongdoing, to publicise any illegal activity and give any evidence to the relevant authorities.

A subject such as this deserves debate and there will be questions that need to be answered.

However, making assumptions and statements such as :

 anyone reading between the lines can see that this pursuit of 'justice' in searching for missing funds is mere pretext to the real purpose of all this agitation by Sancho... which is complete overhauling of the TTFA, where he would stand to be a prime benefactor should any vacuum in TnT football arise.

What is the benefit to anyone of spending years just to "overhaul" TTFA? And if it happened, how would Sancho be the "prime benefactor"? This is just speculative rubbish with no factual base. However, I would say that one aim is to see a T&T football federation fully functioning and free of the taint of the Warner years.

Sancho should think twice about any aspirations for replacing the TTFA as the officially recognized footballing body in TnT.  FIFA is unlikely to be accommodating to any such overtures.  But of course, nobody can deny him his right to try.

 See above.

Can you, Brent, Townley or any other associated party point to a court precedent where a TnT court has paid for forensic accounting at all... let alone in a situation that involves a dispute between private parties?

I'm sure that there are none (or very few) such cases. But I think we all agree that there should be. Despite quite a lot of evidence in the public forum and in the court room pointing to illegal financial transactions, the authorities to date have chosen not to investigate these transactions. And despite the case involving private parties, much of this missing money is public money, and therefore their should be involvement from the govt or authorities in some manner. Just because something has never happened, doesn't mean that it can't.

What does this have to do with LifeSport?  Seriously?

The LifeSport example, as I'm sure was quite clear, was made to point out that once the govt or public or press/media seriously push for answers, action is eventually taken. This alleged missing $200 million is a larger sum than the $170 million + involved in LifeSport

The actual size of the eventual award became an issue, even with posters on this site who were originally supportive. It's worth remembering that the original offer was less than TT$6,000. Nobody had any clue how much the players were actually fighting for. In fact, the figures were discovered right here on this site. It appeared that the sums owed could be large, but nobody thought that they could beat Jack.

But at all times, the players were consistent in their call for an investigation into the missing money and that anyone involved in any illegal transactions to be prosecuted.

Offline Trini

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #817 on: July 11, 2014, 01:15:26 PM »
In giving them this money, Govt should have put in a clause in there for the players not to go after the federation, *cough* Jack Warner.
But as Insider correctly states, this is a perfect opportunity to play the situation.

Sancho - I agree with your principle brudda,

But I assume once the TTFA comes out with all the relevant documentation to show the now empty bank accounts that were used for cash flows back in 2006.... and who had access to it, the case will be dropped against them right?

Because at that point, your point would have been made for all to see what really happened, and if the court action continues, it moves beyond the "principle" card that the players have been playing thus far....

I hope you not believing that you will ever get any money from JW. You way too smart for that. Just making your point in this case will be a victory of epic proportions.

If this is not political interference with football, I dont know what is nah..


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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #818 on: July 12, 2014, 07:41:27 AM »
In giving them this money, Govt should have put in a clause in there for the players not to go after the federation, *cough* Jack Warner.
But as Insider correctly states, this is a perfect opportunity to play the situation.

Sancho - I agree with your principle brudda,

But I assume once the TTFA comes out with all the relevant documentation to show the now empty bank accounts that were used for cash flows back in 2006.... and who had access to it, the case will be dropped against them right?

Because at that point, your point would have been made for all to see what really happened, and if the court action continues, it moves beyond the "principle" card that the players have been playing thus far....

I hope you not believing that you will ever get any money from JW. You way too smart for that. Just making your point in this case will be a victory of epic proportions.

If this is not political interference with football, I dont know what is nah..



I think the whole point of this move by the govt is about the players going after TTFA and Warner. The enemy of your enemy is your friend and in this case, Tim-Kee (PNM) and Warner are not govt friendly.

TTFF were ordered by the court to pursue Mr Warner but failed to do so. This was the players strategy - hang Jack or hang yourselves. If TTFF wanted football cleaned up and to continue running football in T&T and to recover their own funds, this was their opportunity. Instead, Camps and Groden resigned and left TTFF/TTFA in the gunsights.

Offline dreamer

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #819 on: July 12, 2014, 08:58:45 AM »
Lovely state of affairs no matter how one spins it. Niceness.
Supportin' de Warriors right tru.

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #820 on: July 15, 2014, 06:48:05 AM »
Offside in Brazil
By Sunity Maharaj (T&T Express)


Yet again, the Prime Minister has invoked the right to privacy to shield her actions from the public’s right to know. In response, a public unaccustomed to holding power to account, and uncertain about the line between private and public, has swallowed its anxieties about abuse of power and escaped into picong, masking its impotence under a revengeful humour: “The woman gone and blight Brazil, boy!”

Our lack of clarity on precisely what was wrong about the Prime Minister’s statement on the eve of leaving for World Cup Brazil with her grandson, offers a revealing insight into our general inexperience in managing power. Stumped by her assertion that “not one cent of Government’s money” was being used for the “private visit” to Brazil, few could articulate the precise discomfort swirling deep in the gut. Compounding our confusion was her strategy of payment without prejudice.

In opening up the public purse to the Soca Warriors of 2006, the Government made something akin to a private decision to settle a court-ordered debt out of court and without effect on future proceedings in court.

In the context of such generosity to the beloved Soca Warriors, quibbling over grandmotherly and Government gift-giving would seem almost churlish. That is, until the emotional gloss is stripped to the core issues of influence-peddling and mismanagement of public funds.

Right from the beginning, the Persad-Bissessar administration has sought to side-step public scrutiny on such expenditure as overseas travel, government-distributed hampers and celebratory events by explaining them away as being paid for by private money without identifying the source of funds.  The implied suggestion of an impenetrable wall between private money and the actions of public officeholders, describes nothing but a fool’s reality.

All over the world, the commingling of private money and public office routinely subverts good governance. It is at the heart of influence-peddling by public officeholders who trade the power of their office for gifts through actions defined as corrupt. Especially in the context of ongoing public concerns about the power of political financiers over her Government, it is not enough for the Prime Minister to say “not one cent of Government’s money” funded her “private visit” to Brazil.
 
When it comes to financing the activities of high office-holders and their families, the public has a right to know who is footing the bill and not be left to assume who is paying her way. This matter is at the heart of integrity in office. The information is neither irrelevant nor private. It is a requirement of good and transparent government and properly within the scope of the public’s right to know and should not be left to suppositions by defensive minions.

Even as the PM enjoys her World Cup trip, her expedient payment of US$1.3 million (TT$8.4 million) to the Soca Warriors is already opening up a can of questions, fuelled by public distrust and a lack of clarity.

In an interview with Lasana Liburd’s wired868.com online site, not even Michael Towley, the British attorney representing the player-beneficiaries of the Prime Minister’s largesse, could contain his astonishment over her action: “That the (Prime Minister) can effectively say we are going to spend a few million dollars on the players because it will make me feel good.”

That couldn’t happen in the UK; or certainly not that quickly without a parliamentary debate about it. But that is not to say it couldn’t happen like that in other places.

“Other places”, one supposes, refers to those banana republics where a prime minister, having ignored the footballers’ pleas for almost four years, could simply wake up one morning and seize $8.4 million of taxpayers’ money to cover a ratchifee decision designed to blunt public criticism of a World Cup joyride.

Right there, in a nutshell, is the real difference between Westminster government and the West Indian variant of Westminster: public accountability.

Declaring that if he were a citizen of Trinidad and Tobago or even a football fan he would be “pissed off at this”, Towley said the Prime Minister’s action has precipitated a “messy situation because, essentially, someone else has paid (Jack) Warner’s debt and he is off the hook again”.

Almost one week after making those comments, Towley might be even more confused. As it turns out, no one knows for sure the precise implications of a decision made in the true spirit of prime ministerial vye-kie-vye. The players’ position seems to be evolving by the day, moving from gratitude, to an insistence on keeping the money and pursuing legal action to recover the US$1.3 million owed by the TTFA, to offering to return the money to the Government-once paid by the TTFA. The denouement could well be unpredictable with the candle costing more than the funeral.

While the Warriors strategise their way forward in collecting the promised sum, the rest of the society is left to deal with the larger issue of securing the defences around the treasury. Especially in this campaign season of spending to the max, the priority must be on protecting the treasury against prime ministerial whimsy and government abuse of power.
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Offline maxg

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #821 on: July 15, 2014, 08:07:22 AM »
exactly

Offline Bakes

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #822 on: July 15, 2014, 11:49:23 AM »
Sunity (not surprisingly) hit every note:

1. "Our lack of clarity on precisely what was wrong about the Prime Minister’s statement on the eve of leaving for World Cup Brazil with her grandson, offers a revealing insight into our general inexperience in managing power."

Put another way... we have a general sense that something improper afoot, but we can't quite articulate why it seems (or is) wrong... and this itself is an indictment of our inexperience as an electorate.  Much more mature democracies would immediately recognize the problem and demand answers.  We make jokes about it instead.

2. "In opening up the public purse to the Soca Warriors of 2006, the Government made something akin to a private decision to settle a court-ordered debt out of court and without effect on future proceedings in court."

Still trying to understand the logic and/or reasoning behind this... if the payment isn't intended to settle the matter then what is it for?  Is it because the PP gov't feel sorry for the players and giving them something to make them feel better... four years after the fact?

3. "All over the world, the commingling of private money and public office routinely subverts good governance. It is at the heart of influence-peddling by public officeholders who trade the power of their office for gifts through actions defined as corrupt."

People making jail all over the world for this.  Even FIFA, whose HQ is located on one of the outer rings of Hell, with one of Satan's chief minions holding court... somehow find it in themselves to punish influence-peddling.  In Trinidad we does give them office and title.

4. "When it comes to financing the activities of high office-holders and their families, the public has a right to know who is footing the bill and not be left to assume who is paying her way. This matter is at the heart of integrity in office."

The Trini public doesn't seem to understand this... let alone demand accountability.

5. "“Other places”, one supposes, refers to those banana republics where a prime minister, having ignored the footballers’ pleas for almost four years, could simply wake up one morning and seize $8.4 million of taxpayers’ money to cover a ratchifee decision designed to blunt public criticism of a World Cup joyride."

I really want to laugh... except it's such a sad friggin state of affairs... and de steelband just keeps playing on.

6. "The players’ position seems to be evolving by the day, moving from gratitude, to an insistence on keeping the money and pursuing legal action to recover the US$1.3 million owed by the TTFA, to offering to return the money to the Government-once paid by the TTFA. "

No one is covering themselves in glory here... and I don't think Sancho and them appreciating the scope of the blow back.  Who knows, maybe now that de honeymoon over the payment is over reality might sink in.

Offline zuluwarrior

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #823 on: July 15, 2014, 06:59:19 PM »
Election is in the air and the Project Manager know that people dont want them so theey buying if you selling
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Offline elan

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #824 on: July 15, 2014, 08:57:00 PM »
Yuh mean a mature democracy like this?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FY-6ltu4oAQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/FY-6ltu4oAQ</a>
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #825 on: July 15, 2014, 11:44:06 PM »
Yuh mean a mature democracy like this?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FY-6ltu4oAQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/FY-6ltu4oAQ</a>

Yes, a mature democracy like the US.  You will have to try a bit harder to disprove the assertion than by pointing out the odd aberrant elected official.  Now might not be a good time to mention "Jack Warner."

Offline davidephraim

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #826 on: July 16, 2014, 12:01:23 AM »
I am not a believer in one size fits all policies. We expect to slice away policies implemented in America or North Korea for that fact and just paste them onto our own problems. Fact is, we dont see the countless other variables, that go into supporting a particular policy vs another.

Having said that;  I'll say this to the 2006 warriors. Take your payment and keep moving. This aint derogatory. I did just call you Warriors.

This piece meal deal is the Apex, anything else, and loss begins. There is no public support for a legal venture as such; I mention this cause there'll be no public funds to fight your legal battle.(Allyuh aint even build in, how whaever allyuh recover extra, allyuh could invest it in football or youths or balls or nets) This leaves you to fund your own war-chest I assume. Even if the ATT wokkin for free, legal battles cost.

Consider.

P.S. If this happens to be the junction where many parties are converging, in their quest for a certain scalp owned by a certain Big man, then I digress. Then I say, push and push hard; expecting it aint no fake Jihad, and yuh have all Sep, Kamla, Jennings, The English FA, Pope,Obama and whoever else that fella wronged sending supplies constantly to the battlefield - then hey let the games continue.

If it aint that, you can be pouring all dat paper back into the same place where it came from and that my dear 2006 warriors, will eclipse Brasil 7-1 loss as a real loss!




Warren N. Boucaud

Offline elan

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #827 on: July 16, 2014, 02:15:34 PM »
Yuh mean a mature democracy like this?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/FY-6ltu4oAQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/FY-6ltu4oAQ</a>

Yes, a mature democracy like the US.  You will have to try a bit harder to disprove the assertion than by pointing out the odd aberrant elected official.  Now might not be a good time to mention "Jack Warner."

Isn't JW a one off?
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #828 on: July 16, 2014, 02:36:39 PM »
Isn't JW a one off?

Elan you serious?  Yuh forget John O'Halloran, Carlos John and de chinee fella under the UNC, with the air conditioned dog house... is how much crooked elected officials Trinidad see?  You think a US government official could proffer forged credentials and still keep a job?  Or run over some woman foot with a luxury vehicle and keep on moving like nothing happen?  Who paid for Kamla's house?  and Ashworth Jack house in Tobago?  For every one of these incidents where enough questions were NOT asked and no official inquiry commissioned... I could find you three or four examples from the US where people either loss they wuk or loss they wuk AND get prosecuted.  You can't be serious in trying to even compare the two.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 04:03:29 PM by Bakes »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #829 on: July 16, 2014, 03:39:01 PM »
In terms of the Corruption Perception index (http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/) we're one of the worst in the Caribbean, tied with Jamaica and only better than Cuba, Haiti and The Dominican Republic in 83rd place out of 177 nations measured (tied with Zambia and Liberia, for an African comparison).

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #830 on: July 16, 2014, 03:49:53 PM »
I am not a believer in one size fits all policies. We expect to slice away policies implemented in America or North Korea for that fact and just paste them onto our own problems. Fact is, we dont see the countless other variables, that go into supporting a particular policy vs another.

One size doh fit all, but wrong is wrong.
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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #831 on: July 16, 2014, 04:09:25 PM »
Isn't JW a one off?

Elan you serious?  Yuh forget John O'Halloran, Carlos John and de chinee fella under the UNC, with the air conditioned dog house... is how much crooked elected officials Trinidad see?  You think a US government official could proffer forged credentials and still keep a job?  Or run over some woman foot with a luxury vehicle and keep on moving like nothing happen?  Who paid for Kamla's house?  and Ashworth Jack house in Tobago?  For every one of these incidents where enough questions were NOT asked and no official inquiry commissioned... I could find you three or four examples from the US where people either loss they wuk or loss they wuk AND get prosecuted.  You can't be serious in trying to even compare the two.

And the only reason we know so much about Jack is because he's involved in football. Ask a man on the street about Jack and he won't remember a tenth of what he's done...and won't care enough to find out. There is the problem - the average man just doesn't care enough to hold these politicians to task.

Offline davidephraim

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #832 on: July 16, 2014, 11:26:37 PM »
I am not a believer in one size fits all policies. We expect to slice away policies implemented in America or North Korea for that fact and just paste them onto our own problems. Fact is, we dont see the countless other variables, that go into supporting a particular policy vs another.

One size doh fit all, but wrong is wrong.

I concur, but in our non-utopian society, wrong is more relative; rather than just being wrong. The same wrong, does get played out like it right, until somebody say it wrong. Wrong, then, must be a state of mind and one that relies on a societies maturity.

 Staking people or poking out their eyes, for reading books (acts carried out by the Catholic Church) was not deemed wrong, until some guy decided it was. Until then, it was considered a very right cause of action to battle the blasphemers.

My concern for the 2006 warriors wasn't about right and wrong but instead, I wondered if they could separate the difference between what is perceived as wrong and what they can prove is wrong. And if they have to throw their dockets in to establish this wrong and to what degree of a certain return they might imagine.


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Offline Tiresais

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #833 on: July 17, 2014, 12:41:49 AM »
I am not a believer in one size fits all policies. We expect to slice away policies implemented in America or North Korea for that fact and just paste them onto our own problems. Fact is, we dont see the countless other variables, that go into supporting a particular policy vs another.

One size doh fit all, but wrong is wrong.

I concur, but in our non-utopian society, wrong is more relative; rather than just being wrong. The same wrong, does get played out like it right, until somebody say it wrong. Wrong, then, must be a state of mind and one that relies on a societies maturity.

 Staking people or poking out their eyes, for reading books (acts carried out by the Catholic Church) was not deemed wrong, until some guy decided it was. Until then, it was considered a very right cause of action to battle the blasphemers.

My concern for the 2006 warriors wasn't about right and wrong but instead, I wondered if they could separate the difference between what is perceived as wrong and what they can prove is wrong. And if they have to throw their dockets in to establish this wrong and to what degree of a certain return they might imagine.

Whilst not wanting to derail this thread into philosophy, you commit an equivocation fallacy by assuming perceptions of "wrong" are the same as some action actually being "wrong" (i.e. in some objective sense). Context is the key distinction here, not perception, for whether an action can be considered "wrong" in some intrinsic manner. I would still perceive these actions as wrong if I was placed in the Medieval context, and some (probably myself included) would argue that a number of acts are wrong regardless of context, although we might try to ex-post justify it.

Basically, wrong isn't a state of mind imo. We all have a concept of 'wrong', which is obviously contingent on our mind, but it points to a set of behaviours that some individuals, or groups, or societies, or the whole human race believe best to be avoided as they harm ourselves in some internal or societal manner.


Offline Sam

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #834 on: July 17, 2014, 02:05:50 AM »
Isn't JW a one off?

Elan you serious?  Yuh forget John O'Halloran, Carlos John and de chinee fella under the UNC, with the air conditioned dog house... is how much crooked elected officials Trinidad see?  You think a US government official could proffer forged credentials and still keep a job?  Or run over some woman foot with a luxury vehicle and keep on moving like nothing happen?  Who paid for Kamla's house?  and Ashworth Jack house in Tobago?  For every one of these incidents where enough questions were NOT asked and no official inquiry commissioned... I could find you three or four examples from the US where people either loss they wuk or loss they wuk AND get prosecuted.  You can't be serious in trying to even compare the two.

Good talking Bakes.

Man in T&T could thief millions and billions and still keep they work.

T&T public rail up they mouth for de first week and then everybody forget.

And this happening since Eric Williams days.

Kamla is now de best of de best when it comes to having a corrupted minitry.

Faster than a speeding pittbull
Stronger than a shot of ba-bash
Capable of storming any fete


Offline davidephraim

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #835 on: July 17, 2014, 08:41:45 PM »
I am not a believer in one size fits all policies. We expect to slice away policies implemented in America or North Korea for that fact and just paste them onto our own problems. Fact is, we dont see the countless other variables, that go into supporting a particular policy vs another.

One size doh fit all, but wrong is wrong.

I concur, but in our non-utopian society, wrong is more relative; rather than just being wrong. The same wrong, does get played out like it right, until somebody say it wrong. Wrong, then, must be a state of mind and one that relies on a societies maturity.

 Staking people or poking out their eyes, for reading books (acts carried out by the Catholic Church) was not deemed wrong, until some guy decided it was. Until then, it was considered a very right cause of action to battle the blasphemers.

My concern for the 2006 warriors wasn't about right and wrong but instead, I wondered if they could separate the difference between what is perceived as wrong and what they can prove is wrong. And if they have to throw their dockets in to establish this wrong and to what degree of a certain return they might imagine.

Whilst not wanting to derail this thread into philosophy, you commit an equivocation fallacy by assuming perceptions of "wrong" are the same as some action actually being "wrong" (i.e. in some objective sense). Context is the key distinction here, not perception, for whether an action can be considered "wrong" in some intrinsic manner. I would still perceive these actions as wrong if I was placed in the Medieval context, and some (probably myself included) would argue that a number of acts are wrong regardless of context, although we might try to ex-post justify it.

Basically, wrong isn't a state of mind imo. We all have a concept of 'wrong', which is obviously contingent on our mind, but it points to a set of behaviours that some individuals, or groups, or societies, or the whole human race believe best to be avoided as they harm ourselves in some internal or societal manner.



Touche!

I'll be brief - (in my attempt also to not derail de thread) Knowing right and wrong minus the use of perception, as in (hypothesis testing) requires rich realistic sensory information processing abilities, the likes of which I don't have because of my untrained & uncontrollable over-compensating brain which cannot be trusted - (in an Absolute way).   Check out "The brain & compensation". I'm not the only sufferer!

As such, I/we tend to rely heavily on societal environmental norms, to develop our own reality; our own taboos.  IMO, Whilst context, like perception, can be used to define, they're both still governed by external dynamics.  Sometimes, things seem absolute in the absence of a external Catalyst.

Wrong is Wrong is wrong - and it is Absolute; but the only Absolute I'd dare put my head on a block for, is one that can withstand all external pressures (catalysts). If it holds, I'll say its wrong and consider such things as wrong or Right! 


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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #836 on: July 17, 2014, 11:28:42 PM »
Isn't JW a one off?

Elan you serious?  Yuh forget John O'Halloran, Carlos John and de chinee fella under the UNC, with the air conditioned dog house... is how much crooked elected officials Trinidad see?  You think a US government official could proffer forged credentials and still keep a job?  Or run over some woman foot with a luxury vehicle and keep on moving like nothing happen?  Who paid for Kamla's house?  and Ashworth Jack house in Tobago?  For every one of these incidents where enough questions were NOT asked and no official inquiry commissioned... I could find you three or four examples from the US where people either loss they wuk or loss they wuk AND get prosecuted.  You can't be serious in trying to even compare the two.

Bakes you serious?

Is the USA you talking about. We could name call all day and give example of how naive the democracy is if you can call it that.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4</a>

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #837 on: July 18, 2014, 09:38:01 AM »
I am not a believer in one size fits all policies. We expect to slice away policies implemented in America or North Korea for that fact and just paste them onto our own problems. Fact is, we dont see the countless other variables, that go into supporting a particular policy vs another.

One size doh fit all, but wrong is wrong.

I concur, but in our non-utopian society, wrong is more relative; rather than just being wrong. The same wrong, does get played out like it right, until somebody say it wrong. Wrong, then, must be a state of mind and one that relies on a societies maturity.

 Staking people or poking out their eyes, for reading books (acts carried out by the Catholic Church) was not deemed wrong, until some guy decided it was. Until then, it was considered a very right cause of action to battle the blasphemers.

My concern for the 2006 warriors wasn't about right and wrong but instead, I wondered if they could separate the difference between what is perceived as wrong and what they can prove is wrong. And if they have to throw their dockets in to establish this wrong and to what degree of a certain return they might imagine.

Whilst not wanting to derail this thread into philosophy, you commit an equivocation fallacy by assuming perceptions of "wrong" are the same as some action actually being "wrong" (i.e. in some objective sense). Context is the key distinction here, not perception, for whether an action can be considered "wrong" in some intrinsic manner. I would still perceive these actions as wrong if I was placed in the Medieval context, and some (probably myself included) would argue that a number of acts are wrong regardless of context, although we might try to ex-post justify it.

Basically, wrong isn't a state of mind imo. We all have a concept of 'wrong', which is obviously contingent on our mind, but it points to a set of behaviours that some individuals, or groups, or societies, or the whole human race believe best to be avoided as they harm ourselves in some internal or societal manner.



Touche!

I'll be brief - (in my attempt also to not derail de thread) Knowing right and wrong minus the use of perception, as in (hypothesis testing) requires rich realistic sensory information processing abilities, the likes of which I don't have because of my untrained & uncontrollable over-compensating brain which cannot be trusted - (in an Absolute way).   Check out "The brain & compensation". I'm not the only sufferer!

As such, I/we tend to rely heavily on societal environmental norms, to develop our own reality; our own taboos.  IMO, Whilst context, like perception, can be used to define, they're both still governed by external dynamics.  Sometimes, things seem absolute in the absence of a external Catalyst.

Wrong is Wrong is wrong - and it is Absolute; but the only Absolute I'd dare put my head on a block for, is one that can withstand all external pressures (catalysts). If it holds, I'll say its wrong and consider such things as wrong or Right!

 :) (Not derailing, just wanted to let you know I read and found it interesting)

Offline Bakes

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #838 on: July 18, 2014, 12:17:47 PM »
Bakes you serious?

Is the USA you talking about. We could name call all day and give example of how naive the democracy is if you can call it that.



You just on shit now.  Whether there are "naive" segments of the population who electing idiot Tea Baggers like Cruz and Bachmann to Congress, that is beside the point.  The issue has to do with mature democracies, meaning an electorate which is sophisticated and involved enough to understand the responsibilities of elected office, and know how to keep their elected officials accountable.  There is a long history of such activism in the US. Is only now we seeing groups like Reform TT and the Highway movement gaining any kind of public traction.  We simply not in the same sentence as the US when it comes to public accountability.  You just trying to argue and defend nonsense.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 12:20:26 PM by Bakes »

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Re: Soca Warriors, TTFF to face T&T Courts
« Reply #839 on: August 15, 2014, 04:01:24 PM »
Trust me i do understand u guys,it just seems like everybody here on the same page and that's wonderfull at least you all agree on something.

Having said that try not to fault me for being sympathetic to T&T Football,i come from a Football family which i started,i've got two brothers that played for St Marys and Maple,one was assist to Alvin as Snr mens national team Coach,i have a brother that played for Jabloteh,my daughter played for Mucurapo/T&T,my son Barataria Snr,cousin Liana Hinds national Women,Kevin Molino brother of my cousin Kevon Cooper.This is my last post,thanks and good-bye.   

Oh good....ah was wondering when you would shut up.  :pissedoff:

JW....I miss you... :violin:...yuh killing me with this term of endearment. Grody....Ollie....why did you have to leave Mr. Cooper behind? He misses you. :yapping:
Trust me i do understand u guys,it just seems like everybody here on the same page and that's wonderfull at least you all agree on something.

Having said that try not to fault me for being sympathetic to T&T Football,i come from a Football family which i started,i've got two brothers that played for St Marys and Maple,one was assist to Alvin as Snr mens national team Coach,i have a brother that played for Jabloteh,my daughter played for Mucurapo/T&T,my son Barataria Snr,cousin Liana Hinds national Women,Kevin Molino brother of my cousin Kevon Cooper.This is my last post,thanks and good-bye.   

Oh good....ah was wondering when you would shut up.  :pissedoff:

JW....I miss you... :violin:...yuh killing me with this term of endearment. Grody....Ollie....why did you have to leave Mr. Cooper behind? He misses you. :yapping:
Trust me i do understand u guys,it just seems like everybody here on the same page and that's wonderfull at least you all agree on something.

Having said that try not to fault me for being sympathetic to T&T Football,i come from a Football family which i started,i've got two brothers that played for St Marys and Maple,one was assist to Alvin as Snr mens national team Coach,i have a brother that played for Jabloteh,my daughter played for Mucurapo/T&T,my son Barataria Snr,cousin Liana Hinds national Women,Kevin Molino brother of my cousin Kevon Cooper.This is my last post,thanks and good-bye.   
Trust me i do understand u guys,it just seems like everybody here on the same page and that's wonderfull at least you all agree on something.

Having said that try not to fault me for being sympathetic to T&T Football,i come from a Football family which i started,i've got two brothers that played for St Marys and Maple,one was assist to Alvin as Snr mens national team Coach,i have a brother that played for Jabloteh,my daughter played for Mucurapo/T&T,my son Barataria Snr,cousin Liana Hinds national Women,Kevin Molino brother of my cousin Kevon Cooper.This is my last post,thanks and good-bye. 

How ironic, I believe the above was Coops "last post."

Mods, I couldn't link it on the "Coops pass away thread."

VB
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