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Author Topic: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....  (Read 5015 times)

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truetrini

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What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« on: September 04, 2005, 09:35:00 PM »
fitness and discipline.

Hear me out.

without fitness it is not easy to execute and concentrate  I looked at the USA vs Mexico game and the USA had men running non stop.  Frankie Hejduk was de hatchet man.  We need a man or two like dat.

As for discipline we lack it badly and hence the early and soft goals we concede.


If our players can increase their fitness levels we will be more competitive for longer periods.
This team has the will and desire to succeed but we lack fitness.

Discipline is also badly needed, as we often fail to protect the ball and gift possession to our opponents without bein put under pressure.


Offline Trini

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2005, 09:41:37 PM »
I have been saying this for years now.
Fitness wise, we suck....And I cannot understand why.
It has to be with our style of play.

Once yuh tired, it becomes exponentially harder to trap a ball on the move under pressure, much less take quality shots, accurate passing under pressure or off the ball movemet.
Hence we could never keep the ball, resulting in chasing the game 65% of the time. This completes the circle as it is much harder and takes more energy to chase a ball than pass a ball.

We are in a different class to the US and Mex when it comes to team fitness and it is a product of how we play as a team.

Offline rocwell

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2005, 09:56:08 PM »
What separates us from the USA and Mexico is a proper football infrastructure.  Fitness and discipline are so fundamental, as stated in the above post you really can't play without them.  On this forum alone one can read statements like:  Our players can't run off the ball, or our players don't concentrate for 90 minutes.  Such things are symptomatic of a poor infrastructure, our system allows players to come up with fatal bad habits.

Offline pthandi

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2005, 02:11:57 AM »
are any players on the T&T squad dougla ???


Offline Strip

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2005, 04:36:00 AM »
are any players on the T&T squad dougla ???

um rite now i doh think so - dwarika is a dougla i think and rahim, but right now they not on the squad

Offline Filho

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2005, 07:54:18 AM »
Fitness is an issue among some the local players partly because of climate, partly because of lack of professionalism. Players who play in hot countries cannot train and play at the same level as players from moderate climates...that is one of the reasons why the game is faster in Europe. Foreign based sometimes look unfit because they are jetlagged, or not playing enough for their clubs or cannot take the heat. But I think the general fitness level with the fellas is good now. We didn't look unfit playing with 10 men against the US to me.

The biggest diference between TnT and countries like the US/Mexico is the size of the population. If we were larger we would have 10 Stern Johns, 5 Latapys, 15 Birchalls, 4 Shakas...etc. That improves your talent pool, and the local league would be much more competitive, more players would gain international club exposure etc...

2nd...technical ability. we can do the basics well, but we sometimes need to play at a faster rate in the attack. Greater confidence in technique (as well as fitness as you mentioned) helps with a crisper, faster, more efficient, more disciplined game. But in the end, technique and fitness would not be an issue if we were sufficiently large. It would be cake to find 22 very fit, technically gifted men if TnT had over 200 million people living here, especially with football being such a  big sport here.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 07:59:22 AM by Tallman »

Offline dervaig

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2005, 07:56:31 AM »
There is ONE thing that will ALWAYS separate us from the
US and Mexico, DEPTH!

They have it, we don't!

Offline kounty

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2005, 08:05:43 AM »
There is ONE thing that will ALWAYS separate us from the
US and Mexico, DEPTH!

They have it, we don't!

lemme add my two cents too....what separates us from US and Mexico is that US have 250 million people, and Mexico have 71 million people...I mean that isnot the only factor, but that stacked up against us already

Offline rocwell

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2005, 08:26:35 AM »
The biggest diference between TnT and countries like the US/Mexico is the size of the population. If we were larger we would have 10 Stern Johns, 5 Latapys, 15 Birchalls, 4 Shakas...etc. That improves your talent pool, and the local league would be much more competitive, more players would gain international club exposure etc...

No.  Does have Mexico have 10 Stern Johns?  Do they have any Latapys?  A proper development program is what produces players of at least a certain caliber.  Good players don't just automatically come out of the blue no matter how many people are playing the game.  Where's China's dominance?  They have at least a billion peple, How about India? 

All the things you mentioned Filho, fitness, technical ability are things which every player playing organized football at any level is supposed to have.  If our players don't have it it's simply because our infrastucture has allowed them to come up with a half-assed approach to the game.

Offline AB.Trini

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2005, 08:27:45 AM »
Players who play in hot countries cannot train and play at the same level as players from moderate climates...that is one of the reasons why the game is faster in Europe.

Wait nah Brazil must have a moderate climate? It seems to me that when you look at it that way, European teams should dominate the world stage; AH DOH THINK SO!!!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 08:34:39 AM by Tallman »

Offline kounty

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2005, 08:34:26 AM »
The biggest diference between TnT and countries like the US/Mexico is the size of the population. If we were larger we would have 10 Stern Johns, 5 Latapys, 15 Birchalls, 4 Shakas...etc. That improves your talent pool, and the local league would be much more competitive, more players would gain international club exposure etc...

No. Does have Mexico have 10 Stern Johns? Do they have any Latapys? A proper development program is what produces players of at least a certain caliber. Good players don't just automatically come out of the blue no matter how many people are playing the game. Where's China's dominance? They have at least a billion peple, How about India?

All the things you mentioned Filho, fitness, technical ability are things which every player playing organized football at any level is supposed to have. If our players don't have it it's simply because our infrastucture has allowed them to come up with a half-assed approach to the game.

I know somebody woulda come up with that point, but from that population you have to count the percentage that interested in football... so for instance, we take Brazil -180 million 100% interested in football...so you have a 180 million football population... you take US 20% interested...thaz still 50 million people...India though...if it ain't cricket or indian movies, forget it...similar situation in china

Offline rocwell

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2005, 08:40:02 AM »
I know somebody woulda come up with that point, but from that population you have to count the percentage that interested in football... so for instance, we take Brazil -180 million 100% interested in football...so you have a 180 million football population... you take US 20% interested...thaz still 50 million people...India though...if it ain't cricket or indian movies, forget it...similar situation in china

Regardless, if you're not delveoping the youth interested in football (which we're not doing properly in T&T) you're not going to have very complete players, and as such, inadequate teams.  A large population does not automatically guarantee "10 Stern Johns and 5 Latapys".  The problems Filho mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with size and everything to do with how players were taught about the game.

What country has 5 Latapys?

Offline dutchman

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2005, 08:51:28 AM »
ABSOLUTELY NOT A THING!

All these comments above are a mental thing.
You  think we have 100 or 200 million people here in Holland ?
You think South Korea always had it ?
So how did they beat Italy last time ?
If you all still think that THEY have it and WE don't than that might also be in the mind of some players.
 
The USA and MEXICO seem to be good but damn this is football anything can happen.
STop thinking you're from a small country and you can't beat them, you really CAN beat them.
The USA and MEXICO will always try to intimate you, but they aren't from steel either.
Did Greece win the european cup with 24 superstar players ?
Sometimes when I read this board I get the feeling that you might see football to much as a sport like cricket, baseball or basketball. But football is football and the strength of the individual isn't that important as in these other team sports.

Here in Holland or Germany we really don't question the trainers decisions as much as on this board, in fact technically better players are passed all the time for players that will lift up the entire team performance and give more fight. We are finally becoming like the Germans, not giving a shit about the individual but all about the team.   
I think by turning a 5-1 loss last time into a 3-2 win this time you should be all a bit more positive.
Look at the progression you're making ! I said it before you're going to GERMANY all you need to do next Wednesday is give it ALL YOU have... kick it into the goal and have a clear head till the very end.
It's simple like that.
Tomás

btw: congrats with the win over Guatamala !
Rumor has it that every other thing you read or hear is just a rumor.

Offline AB.Trini

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2005, 09:09:13 AM »
Dutchman: Ah cyar agree more!!!!!!!!! That is the right mental approach we have to adopt.
I have been saying for sometime, geting into player's heads and developing asense of belief in one's ability is 95% of results.

I strongly believe that if we could be consistent in our play, we may be further ahead in the standings today. We have to draw upon the last finish and move  with that momentum into Wednesday's game.

Offline Filho

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2005, 09:50:45 AM »

No. Does have Mexico have 10 Stern Johns? Do they have any Latapys? A proper development program is what produces players of at least a certain caliber. Good players don't just automatically come out of the blue no matter how many people are playing the game. Where's China's dominance? They have at least a billion peple, How about India?

Why would you take that example so literally. Mexico may not have 10 Stern Johns, but although a larger population does not guarantee anything, it helps from a probability point of view, especially in a country where football is extremely popular...not the case with India or China. I am saying that all things being equal, the larger your nation the better. I see why many don't think that is the main reason but it is a reason and to me it is the starting point.


Wait nah Brazil must have a moderate climate? It seems to me that when you look at it that way, European teams should dominate the world stage; AH DOH THINK SO!!!

I never said that extreme levels of fitness cannot be achieved in warm climates. I did mention lack of professionalism as a reason too. I just said it is easier, the cooler it is. And Brazil does have a fairly moderate climate with a warm summer and cold winter and it has even been known to snow in the south. But Brazilians also have superior technical skills. The Europeans also suffer when they have to play in hot climates. It all evens out. Is it a surprise that no European has won a  WC outside of Europe, or no non European has won a WC in Europe (except Brazil)? Climate is not the only reason but it is a factor...that is all.

I know somebody woulda come up with that point, but from that population you have to count the percentage that interested in football... so for instance, we take Brazil -180 million 100% interested in football...so you have a 180 million football population... you take US 20% interested...thaz still 50 million people...India though...if it ain't cricket or indian movies, forget it...similar situation in china

Regardless, if you're not delveoping the youth interested in football (which we're not doing properly in T&T) you're not going to have very complete players, and as such, inadequate teams. A large population does not automatically guarantee "10 Stern Johns and 5 Latapys". The problems Filho mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with size and everything to do with how players were taught about the game.

What country has 5 Latapys?

agreed..and I meention this indirectly by talking about our technical ability. Brazil and Argentina easily has 10 Latapys.....Besides...it is an example no to be taken literallly. I should have just said more than one...happy?

ABSOLUTELY NOT A THING!

All these comments above are a mental thing.
You think we have 100 or 200 million people here in Holland ?


Dutchman...I think we all agree with your points. And much love for the support and kind words. But even Holland is large enough to benefit from its population. In the end you are picking 22 people so there is no need for 200 million people to have depth. A population of 5 to 10 million people can produce world class teams, so long as the sport is popular and the correct infrastructure is present...both of which Holland have. Anybody can beat anybody in football...I am only suggesting those things that improve our odds

Offline rocwell

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2005, 10:17:22 AM »
Please Name the 10 Latapys that Brazil and Argentina each have?  Mind you they must all be playing currently.

Offline Filho

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2005, 10:50:52 AM »
Please Name the 10 Latapys that Brazil and Argentina each have? Mind you they must all be playing currently.

I said...doh take the example so literally. But I believe that Kaka, Ronaldinho, Robinho, Juninho Pernambucano, Ze Roberto, Rivaldo, Marcelinho, Alex, Diego, Felipe, Daniel Carvalho, Juninho Paulista and Ricardinho are all players of the callibre of Latas if not quite a bit better. And there are more like that coming up already making a name for themselves in the Brazileirao and Europe. They are not exactly all the same players, and some changed as their career progressed, (Rivaldo became more of a 2nd striker, althpough is back to  playmaker at Olympiakos and  Ze Roberto is being asked to play more defensive to accomodate the Fab 4). But they are similar players who all started as attack minded midfielders....

in Argentina you have Riquelme, Veron, Aimar, Messi, Marcello Gallardo, Lucho and Ariel Ortega to name the most obvious....

Offline rocwell

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2005, 11:01:26 AM »
They are not exactly all the same players, and some changed as their career progressed...

Offline Trini _2026

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2005, 11:04:05 AM »
What separates us from the USA and Mexico is THE USA and mexico has
a strong league and
 a good  youth program plain and simple
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/sh8SeGmzai4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/sh8SeGmzai4</a>

Offline rocwell

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2005, 11:09:50 AM »
What separates us from the USA and Mexico is THE USA and mexico has
a strong league and
 a good  youth program plain and simple

End of discussion

Offline kicker

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2005, 11:11:18 AM »
The 3 main differences between Mexico and Trinidad are

1. Size of the player pool. Yes it makes a difference. If you don't think so, then you're living in a dream world. It's not the only factor, but it helps.

2. The professional league. Countries like Mexico have pro leagues that facilitate proper development of players from a young age. Youths play with pro league junior teams from young and are exposed to higher levels of training and technical development from the early important years.The pro league and its finances etc also facilitate a regimen where the nations most talented players are playing higher level football week in week out under better coaching, more intense media following, more pressure from supporters and in better facilities.

3. Tradition, history, culture. Mexico is an older country than Trinidad (I believe..correct me if I'm wrong). Their footballing culture goes deeper and seems to be alot more passionate and engrained in its people. Trinidad is struggling to develop a passionate football culture. I think that also goes a long way.

You put those together, and the end result will speak for itself.

With the U.S. they have leveraged their financial strength, their mere size, and a professional, well-planned approached to get to the World Class level (and achieve the above) at an accelerated rate. Football is not as passionate and traditional a culture just yet, but it has made strides here in the U.S, surpassing almost all in the region......they're getting there....God help us when they do.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 11:19:01 AM by kicker »
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Offline Ponnoxx

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2005, 12:22:02 PM »
 Confidence. We fitness not bad but we lack basic confidence. Which is why we don't try to keep possesion of the ball. We afraid to lose the ball. Beenakker has tried to instill this into our players which is why it would seem strange that we playing better under his reign . Quick passes that we don't make disables us from keeping the ball. When we play USA and Mexico we run them down and get tired for nearly an entire match. These other teams are more confident in their passing than us so they keep possesion and have us running them down and when we get the ball we giving it away...Go T&T

Offline Feliziano

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2005, 12:38:14 PM »
we are not assertive and decisive enough in anything we do..nor do we have clear goals whcih we believe 100% in...try asking somebody what they want to be when they grow up and the first thing out they mouth is..'i ent know nah' and they watching they own foot while saying it too.
we have to stop being meek and put the ball in the back of the net at all costs (legally).
mexico have good football players cause they have the right infrastructure in place and the people want to play..whereas in the US case they just want to get really good at it so as to always be on top of everybody else, thats why they spend their money on development etc..ah don't think theyll ever appreciate the sport like how people in other countries will...look how Brazil is get depressed whenever they lose..the GDP is drop big time.
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Offline dwn

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2005, 12:40:52 PM »
From day one, fitness and being an "athlete" gets alot more consideration and priority in US sports culture than in Trinidad. I think that mindset plays a part even at the national team level.
I get the  impression that many of players arent brouhgt up valueing things like being strength, speed, explosiveness etc in the same way

Offline Touches

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2005, 02:41:43 PM »
We treat sports here in TT as a sweat and not a Business.

Population,

Lack of fundamanetal training and development of players

Quality of the professional league.

Sense of national pride, and attitude.

MONEY

Footballing history

People with any kinda of common sense who running football.

The point about China and India in terms of population is the exception to the rule, simply because they doe take on football as much as they like other sports. But China has qualified for a WC, we still havent. China is also good at other sports.things TT doe even do e.g diving etc.
India is a cricket place and they good at it. They also good at hockey and badminton. A larger population will always equate more options when it comes to developing talent. Why you think TT used to beat all the other islands in football? Because the other islands have a player pool the size of the Vale.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2005, 02:46:46 PM by Touches »


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Offline dutchman

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2005, 02:49:02 PM »
Filho,

I still kind of disagree.
South Korea really didn't have such a strong league and reach so tremendously far with a good mindset, good trainer that ok started a lot earlier then Beenhakker and what did they really do good ?
After learning his lesson with Holland he trained them over and over to do awesome penalty kicks.
Especially replacing their blood for ice water, but this you can all train.
He always let them start their walk from the center circle since that is how you'll have to do it later in the World cup. Of course he ( Hiddink) was also able to get the team together a lot more then any other country and started to mold it long time before any other country had a change.
Having the trainer start earlier with WC prep. then other countries is an example how smaller nations with players with less club obligations can have an advantage.
I also don't expect T&T to win the world cup with this last minute assignment from Beenhakker, but just being there in Germany and play without stress and perhaps winning some matches should be possible.
If this wasn't a real option he woudn't have taken the assignment.
Believe me Beenhakker isn't in T&T for money, it's all about that he likes the game so much especially if he is free to do his thing.

But coming back to the subject line, why would you bring this up now ? right before the match ?
I also still believe that many trini's forget how important the team thing is, and are too focused on why this player is benched etc. The trainer and their staff also see all the little things, we might not see.
Again over here we used to be the same and mock about a lot, I'm happy that now with van Basten we kind of got rid off that. You should really start to think less about the individuals and more about the team chemistry. Only a country like Brasil could win a match pure on individual quality but that would be my only exception and again only if the opponent would fall for their intimidations and name.
Rumor has it that every other thing you read or hear is just a rumor.

Offline Filho

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2005, 02:50:15 PM »
They are not exactly all the same players, and some changed as their career progressed...

Rocwell...what are you trying to say?

Offline dreamer

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2005, 02:50:28 PM »
we are not assertive and decisive enough in anything we do..nor do we have clear goals whcih we believe 100% in...try asking somebody what they want to be when they grow up and the first thing out they mouth is..'i ent know nah' and they watching they own foot while saying it too.

That is very true Feliziano. You very perceptively now opening a real deep seated little defect that we have. However, the reason that I am so attached to this squad is that these players are liberated from that mindset and see no limit to possibilities.  Real heros who going for broke and refuse to let people who want to call them "shittong" stop them. Most have been through some serious trials and tribulations home and abroad.
Supportin' de Warriors right tru.

Offline Trinimassive

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Re: What separates us from the USA and Mexico is....
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2005, 04:09:33 PM »
What separates us from the USA and Mexico is THE USA and mexico has
a strong league and
 a good  youth program plain and simple


What everybody has said all is important and play a part.
But Triniman's statement speaks volumes and from this you could include many variables...example money, proper coaches (not just qualified coaches), a large following, etc.

 

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