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Offline Blue

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2008, 03:53:39 PM »
A Russian friend of mine just gave me a different take on the situation, thought I'd post it. She is normally really critical of Russia, but thinks they are right in this situation.

She says that, while Georgia have always laid claim to that region, they are now effectively ethnic cleansing South Ossetia (ethnic Ossetians side with Russia rather than Georgia) and had killed upwards of 2000 people in the 48 hours leading up to Russia's intervention.

Although they have announced withdrawal of troops, it is only from the capital and not the country as a whole - ethnic cleansing is still taking place (apparently russian tv showed them bombing a hospital today)

She also pointed out that the Americans and British support the Georgian government and helped to train Georgian troops because of the oil/gas in the region, as they are concerned that Russia already control a very significant percentage of the world's oil/gas reserves.

Fishs, would be nice to hear whether u think this is true.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 03:57:01 PM by Ryan »

Offline Dutty

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2008, 08:27:29 PM »
De more I read about dis ting is de less I understanding it ....this complicated like when Yugoslavia break up into their various ethnic countries and sub-ethnic enclaves

I google to see what de country look like....de fighting aint lookin like it too far from whey fishs livin oui...and dem tanks movin south



putin gorne home to handle he stories and...well....if my wukk was bout to done I woulda ress back too  ;)




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Offline fishs

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2008, 11:12:05 PM »
A Russian friend of mine just gave me a different take on the situation, thought I'd post it. She is normally really critical of Russia, but thinks they are right in this situation.

She says that, while Georgia have always laid claim to that region, they are now effectively ethnic cleansing South Ossetia (ethnic Ossetians side with Russia rather than Georgia) and had killed upwards of 2000 people in the 48 hours leading up to Russia's intervention.

Although they have announced withdrawal of troops, it is only from the capital and not the country as a whole - ethnic cleansing is still taking place (apparently russian tv showed them bombing a hospital today)

She also pointed out that the Americans and British support the Georgian government and helped to train Georgian troops because of the oil/gas in the region, as they are concerned that Russia already control a very significant percentage of the world's oil/gas reserves.

Fishs, would be nice to hear whether u think this is true.

More Russian propoganda.
The russians are supposed to be peacekeepers but instead they provide arms and logistical support for the rebels, then they issue russian passports to them to make them russian citizens.
Listen South Ossetia is about 50kms away from Tbilisi the capital of Georgia and for the russians to set up fully there will be a major blow to this young democracy, also people seem to forget that that region is part og Georgia and not russia.
Further more the russians have designs on controlling Georgia and re establishing a major foothold on this side of the cacaucases . If that happens Azerbaijan and Armenia also at risk not to mention the massive oil and gas reserves that is in the caspian.
She is not very bright to simplify the situation that way.
If the international community does not stop the russians they will push into Tbilisi and get rid of this government and set up a puppet government and that will take us back to cold war status because Ukraine and Moldiva will be the next targets.

This morning my hotel room shook from an enormous blast, the russians have started shelling targets just out of Tbilisi , so I secured my last bottle of Johnnie Gold and will be heading for the turkish border later today . All international flights out of Georgia have been cancelled with the exception of Georgian airlines and I would rather face russian tanks than fly with them.

So until sometime hopefully later this week . Fishs signing out
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline Blue

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2008, 01:31:51 AM »
A Russian friend of mine just gave me a different take on the situation, thought I'd post it. She is normally really critical of Russia, but thinks they are right in this situation.

She says that, while Georgia have always laid claim to that region, they are now effectively ethnic cleansing South Ossetia (ethnic Ossetians side with Russia rather than Georgia) and had killed upwards of 2000 people in the 48 hours leading up to Russia's intervention.

Although they have announced withdrawal of troops, it is only from the capital and not the country as a whole - ethnic cleansing is still taking place (apparently russian tv showed them bombing a hospital today)

She also pointed out that the Americans and British support the Georgian government and helped to train Georgian troops because of the oil/gas in the region, as they are concerned that Russia already control a very significant percentage of the world's oil/gas reserves.

Fishs, would be nice to hear whether u think this is true.

More Russian propoganda.
The russians are supposed to be peacekeepers but instead they provide arms and logistical support for the rebels, then they issue russian passports to them to make them russian citizens.
Listen South Ossetia is about 50kms away from Tbilisi the capital of Georgia and for the russians to set up fully there will be a major blow to this young democracy, also people seem to forget that that region is part og Georgia and not russia.
Further more the russians have designs on controlling Georgia and re establishing a major foothold on this side of the cacaucases . If that happens Azerbaijan and Armenia also at risk not to mention the massive oil and gas reserves that is in the caspian.
She is not very bright to simplify the situation that way.
If the international community does not stop the russians they will push into Tbilisi and get rid of this government and set up a puppet government and that will take us back to cold war status because Ukraine and Moldiva will be the next targets.

This morning my hotel room shook from an enormous blast, the russians have started shelling targets just out of Tbilisi , so I secured my last bottle of Johnnie Gold and will be heading for the turkish border later today . All international flights out of Georgia have been cancelled with the exception of Georgian airlines and I would rather face russian tanks than fly with them.

So until sometime hopefully later this week . Fishs signing out

OK cool, hope u and d Johhnie Gold get out ok  :beermug:

Offline Bakes

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2008, 09:26:54 AM »
The irony (boldfaced as they are) is that Russia claiming the South Ossetians as freedom fighters, yet the Chechnyans are 'rebels'.


How are the South Ossetians NOT rebels too?

Just more fodder for those who still ent understand what going on here.

Offline Blue

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2008, 10:10:48 AM »
The irony (boldfaced as they are) is that Russia claiming the South Ossetians as freedom fighters, yet the Chechnyans are 'rebels'.


How are the South Ossetians NOT rebels too?

Just more fodder for those who still ent understand what going on here.

Or how are the Chechnyans not freedom fighters too?

Offline Pointman

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2008, 01:32:02 PM »
Look Obama just loss the election.

No foreign policy experience...

nah doh study dat, Americans generally don't give a f*ck bout what going on outside the US.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2008, 02:07:07 PM »
The irony (boldfaced as they are) is that Russia claiming the South Ossetians as freedom fighters, yet the Chechnyans are 'rebels'.


How are the South Ossetians NOT rebels too?

Just more fodder for those who still ent understand what going on here.
True talk...

Or how are the Chechnyans not freedom fighters too?

I ent agree with them holding the chirren hostage in that school some years back... but outside ah dat is pressure that Putin and dem had dem people in Chechnya under... and come to check it, the Chechens have been fighting Russian oppression since as far back as the Bolshevik rebellion...dem men have a legitimate gripe when it comes to suppressed autonomy.

Offline kicker

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2008, 03:31:34 PM »
The irony (boldfaced as they are) is that Russia claiming the South Ossetians as freedom fighters, yet the Chechnyans are 'rebels'.


How are the South Ossetians NOT rebels too?

Just more fodder for those who still ent understand what going on here.
True talk...

Or how are the Chechnyans not freedom fighters too?

I ent agree with them holding the chirren hostage in that school some years back... but outside ah dat is pressure that Putin and dem had dem people in Chechnya under... and come to check it, the Chechens have been fighting Russian oppression since as far back as the Bolshevik rebellion...dem men have a legitimate gripe when it comes to suppressed autonomy.


Ever seen the Showtime documentary "Three Days in September" about that? - pretty gripping...

There's an amazing story in it of a little girl (couldn't be more than 4 years old) who actually went back into the burning building to find a family member- may have been her brother or mother (don't remember)...and she came back out alive... They interviewed her after, and she was as nonchalant about it as ever... Children are really mystifying...
Live life 90 minutes at a time....Football is life.......

Offline Bakes

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2008, 03:43:28 PM »
Ever seen the Showtime documentary "Three Days in September" about that? - pretty gripping...

There's an amazing story in it of a little girl (couldn't be more than 4 years old) who actually went back into the burning building to find a family member- may have been her brother or mother (don't remember)...and she came back out alive... They interviewed her after, and she was as nonchalant about it as ever... Children are really mystifying...

Nah, never saw dat one...ent really had HBO in years.  Sounds like something I'd want to check out though, they are top-notch when it comes to their investigative reports/documentaries, and this Chechen thing has been on my radar for some time now.  That li'l girl story is remarkably reminiscent of the li'l chinese fella at the Olympic opening ceremony.

Offline Deeks

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2008, 04:00:38 PM »
Fishs,
 Reach the border safley. God Bless!!!

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2008, 05:20:07 PM »
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 05:25:30 PM by Jah Gol »

Offline ribbit

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2008, 07:01:55 PM »
it looks like georgia attacked south ossetia first. some russian troops took fire. putin not the kind of person to let that slide. saakashvili miscalculated.

Offline Dutty

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2008, 07:09:27 PM »
it looks like georgia attacked south ossetia first. some russian troops took fire. putin not the kind of person to let that slide. saakashvili miscalculated.

I kinda subscribin to dat one too
The skeptic in me sayin dis ting in de plannin long time

Georgia is one of the rare breakaway republics happy to send troops to Iraq, no questions asked.....yuh make George Jr. happy, George Jr. go have yuh back when hard times reach but dat was when George was popular........

Plus, like the georgia planners forget Putin is ah serious madman.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2008, 07:39:42 PM »
it looks like georgia attacked south ossetia first. some russian troops took fire. putin not the kind of person to let that slide. saakashvili miscalculated.

That's the simplistic version that a lot of people eating the Russian chain up on...

Putin Makes His Move

By Robert Kagan

Monday, August 11, 2008; A15

The details of who did what to precipitate Russia's war against Georgia are not very important. Do you recall the precise details of the Sudeten Crisis that led to Nazi Germany's invasion of Czechoslovakia? Of course not, because that morally ambiguous dispute is rightly remembered as a minor part of a much bigger drama.

The events of the past week will be remembered that way, too. This war did not begin because of a miscalculation by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili. It is a war that Moscow has been attempting to provoke for some time. The man who once called the collapse of the Soviet Union "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the [20th] century" has reestablished a virtual czarist rule in Russia and is trying to restore the country to its once-dominant role in Eurasia and the world. Armed with wealth from oil and gas; holding a near-monopoly over the energy supply to Europe; with a million soldiers, thousands of nuclear warheads and the world's third-largest military budget, Vladimir Putin believes that now is the time to make his move.

Georgia's unhappy fate is that it borders a new geopolitical fault line that runs along the western and southwestern frontiers of Russia. From the Baltics in the north through Central Europe and the Balkans to the Caucasus and Central Asia, a geopolitical power struggle has emerged between a resurgent and revanchist Russia on one side and the European Union and the United States on the other.

Putin's aggression against Georgia should not be traced only to its NATO aspirations or his pique at Kosovo's independence. It is primarily a response to the "color revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia in 2003 and 2004, when pro-Western governments replaced pro-Russian ones. What the West celebrated as a flowering of democracy the autocratic Putin saw as geopolitical and ideological encirclement.

Ever since, Putin has been determined to stop and, if possible, reverse the pro-Western trend on his borders. He seeks not only to prevent Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO but also to bring them under Russian control. Beyond that, he seeks to carve out a zone of influence within NATO, with a lesser security status for countries along Russia's strategic flanks. That is the primary motive behind Moscow's opposition to U.S. missile defense programs in Poland and the Czech Republic.

His war against Georgia is part of this grand strategy. Putin cares no more about a few thousand South Ossetians than he does about Kosovo's Serbs. Claims of pan-Slavic sympathy are pretexts designed to fan Russian great-power nationalism at home and to expand Russia's power abroad.

Unfortunately, such tactics always seem to work. While Russian bombers attack Georgian ports and bases, Europeans and Americans, including very senior officials in the Bush administration, blame the West for pushing Russia too hard on too many issues.

It is true that many Russians were humiliated by the way the Cold War ended, and Putin has persuaded many to blame Boris Yeltsin and Russian democrats for this surrender to the West. The mood is reminiscent of Germany after World War I, when Germans complained about the "shameful Versailles diktat" imposed on a prostrate Germany by the victorious powers and about the corrupt politicians who stabbed the nation in the back.

Now, as then, these feelings are understandable. Now, as then, however, they are being manipulated to justify autocracy at home and to convince Western powers that accommodation -- or to use the once-respectable term, appeasement -- is the best policy.

But the reality is that on most of these issues it is Russia, not the West or little Georgia, that is doing the pushing. It was Russia that raised a challenge in Kosovo, a place where Moscow had no discernible interests beyond the expressed pan-Slavic solidarity. It was Russia that decided to turn a minor deployment of a few defensive interceptors in Poland, which could not possibly be used against Russia's vast missile arsenal, into a major geopolitical confrontation. And it is Russia that has precipitated a war against Georgia by encouraging South Ossetian rebels to raise the pressure on Tbilisi and make demands that no Georgian leader could accept. If Saakashvili had not fallen into Putin's trap this time, something else would have eventually sparked the conflict.

Diplomats in Europe and Washington believe Saakashvili made a mistake by sending troops to South Ossetia last week. Perhaps. But his truly monumental mistake was to be president of a small, mostly democratic and adamantly pro-Western nation on the border of Putin's Russia.

Historians will come to view Aug. 8, 2008, as a turning point no less significant than Nov. 9, 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell. Russia's attack on sovereign Georgian territory marked the official return of history, indeed to an almost 19th-century style of great-power competition, complete with virulent nationalisms, battles for resources, struggles over spheres of influence and territory, and even -- though it shocks our 21st-century sensibilities -- the use of military power to obtain geopolitical objectives. Yes, we will continue to have globalization, economic interdependence, the European Union and other efforts to build a more perfect international order. But these will compete with and at times be overwhelmed by the harsh realities of international life that have endured since time immemorial. The next president had better be ready.

Robert Kagan, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, writes a monthly column for The Post. His most recent book is "The Return of History and the End of Dreams." He served in the State Department in the Reagan administration.

Source


Brilliant article... traces the convoluted history of this current conflict and explains it in pretty basic terms.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 07:41:32 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline ribbit

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2008, 07:41:53 PM »
it looks like georgia attacked south ossetia first. some russian troops took fire. putin not the kind of person to let that slide. saakashvili miscalculated.

That's the simplistic version that a lot of people eating the Russian chain up on...

Putin Makes His Move

By Robert Kagan

obviously you are new to robert kagan. he'll give you a certain perspective that would have been popular about 6 years ago.

Offline ribbit

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2008, 07:56:46 PM »
it looks like georgia attacked south ossetia first. some russian troops took fire. putin not the kind of person to let that slide. saakashvili miscalculated.

I kinda subscribin to dat one too
The skeptic in me sayin dis ting in de plannin long time

Georgia is one of the rare breakaway republics happy to send troops to Iraq, no questions asked.....yuh make George Jr. happy, George Jr. go have yuh back when hard times reach but dat was when George was popular........

Plus, like the georgia planners forget Putin is ah serious madman.

yeah, junior read something off the teleprompter but he more studying beach volleyball than lending a hand.

here's the one i read that seem to have a bit more believability than kagan:


News Analysis
In Georgia and Russia, a Perfect Brew for a Blowup


As the bloody military mismatch between Russia and Georgia unfolded over the past three days, even the main players were surprised by how quickly small border skirmishes slipped into a conflict that threatened the Georgian government and perhaps the country itself.

Several American and Georgian officials said that unlike when Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979, a move in which Soviet forces were massed before the attack, the nation had not appeared poised for an invasion last week. As late as Wednesday, they said, Russian diplomats had been pressing for negotiations between Georgia and South Ossetia, the breakaway region where the combat flared and then escalated into full-scale war.

“It doesn’t look like this was premeditated, with a massive staging of equipment,” one senior American official said. “Until the night before the fighting, Russia seemed to be playing a constructive role.”

But while the immediate causes and the intensity of the Russian invasion had caught Georgia and the Western foreign policy establishment by surprise, there had been signs for years that Georgia and Russia had methodically, if quietly, prepared for conflict.

Several other long-term factors had also contributed to the possibility of war. They included the Kremlin’s military successes in Chechnya, which gave Russia the latitude and sense of internal security it needed to free up troops to cross its borders, and the exuberant support of the United States for President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia, a figure loathed by the Kremlin on both personal and political terms.

Moreover, by preparing Georgian soldiers for duty in Iraq, the United States appeared to have helped embolden Georgia, if inadvertently, to enter a fight it could not win.

American officials and a military officer who have dealt with Georgia said privately that as a result, the war risked becoming a foreign policy catastrophe for the United States, whose image and authority in the region were in question after it had proven unable to assist Georgia or to restrain the Kremlin while the Russian Army pressed its attack.

Russia’s bureaucratic and military groundwork was laid even before Mr. Saakashvili came to power in 2004 and positioned himself as one of the world’s most strident critics of the Kremlin.

Under the presidency of Vladimir V. Putin, Russia had already been granting citizenship and distributing passports to virtually all of the adult residents of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the much larger separatist region where Russia had also massed troops over the weekend. The West had been skeptical of the validity of Russia’s handing out passports by the thousands to citizens of another nation.

“Having a document does not make you a Russian citizen,” one American diplomat said in 2004, as Russia expanded the program.

But whatever the legal merits, the Kremlin had laid the foundation for one of its public relations arguments for invading: its army was coming to the aid of Russian citizens under foreign attack.

In the ensuing years, even as Russia issued warnings, Mr. Saakashvili grew bolder. There were four regions out of Georgian control when he took office in 2004, but he restored two smaller regions, Ajaria in 2004 and the upper Kodori Gorge in 2006, with few deaths.

The victories gave him a sense of momentum. He kept national reintegration as a central plank of his platform.

Russia, however, began retaliating against Georgia in many ways. It cut off air service and mail between the countries, closed the border and refused Georgian exports. And by the time the Kodori Gorge was back in Georgian control, Russia had also consolidated its hold over Chechnya, which is now largely managed by a local leader, Ramzan Kadyrov, and his Kremlin-backed Chechen forces.

Chechnya had for years been the preoccupation of Russian ground forces. But Mr. Kadyrov’s strength had enabled Russian to garrison many of its forces and turn its attention elsewhere.

Simultaneously, as the contest of wills between Georgia and Russia intensified, the strong support of the United States for Mr. Saakashvili created tensions within the foreign policy establishment in Washington and created rival views.

Some diplomats considered Mr. Saakashvili a politician of unusual promise, someone who could reorder Georgia along the lines of a Western democracy and become a symbol of change in the politically moribund post-Soviet states. Mr. Saakashvili encouraged this view, framing himself as a visionary who was leading a column of regional democracy movements.

Other diplomats worried that both Mr. Saakashvili’s persona and his platforms presented an implicit challenge to the Kremlin, and that Mr. Saakashvili made himself a symbol of something else: Russia’s suspicion about American intentions in the Kremlin’s old empire. They worried that he would draw the United States and Russia into arguments that the United States did not want.

This feeling was especially true among Russian specialists, who said that, whatever the merits of Mr. Saakashvili’s positions, his impulsiveness and nationalism sometimes outstripped his common sense.

The risks were intensified by the fact that the United States did not merely encourage Georgia’s young democracy, it helped militarize the weak Georgian state.

In his wooing of Washington as he came to power, Mr. Saakashvili firmly embraced the missions of the United States in Afghanistan and Iraq. At first he had almost nothing practical to offer. Georgia’s military was small, poorly led, ill-equipped and weak.

But Mr. Saakashvili’s rise coincided neatly with a swelling American need for political support and foreign soldiers in Iraq. His offer of troops was matched with a Pentagon effort to overhaul Georgia’s forces from bottom to top.

At senior levels, the United States helped rewrite Georgian military doctrine and train its commanders and staff officers. At the squad level, American marines and soldiers trained Georgian soldiers in the fundamentals of battle.

Georgia, meanwhile, began re-equipping its forces with Israeli and American firearms, reconnaissance drones, communications and battlefield-management equipment, new convoys of vehicles and stockpiles of ammunition.

The public goal was to nudge Georgia toward NATO military standards. Privately, Georgian officials welcomed the martial coaching and buildup, and they made clear that they considered participation in Iraq as a sure way to prepare the Georgian military for “national reunification” — the local euphemism of choice for restoring Abkhazia and South Ossetia to Georgian control.

All of these policies collided late last week. One American official who covers Georgian affairs, speaking on the condition of anonymity while the United States formulates its next public response, said that everything had gone wrong.

Mr. Saakashvili had acted rashly, he said, and had given Russia the grounds to invade. The invasion, he said, was chilling, disproportionate and brutal, and it was grounds for a strong censure. But the immediate question was how far Russia would go in putting Georgia back into what it sees as Georgia’s place.

There was no sign throughout the weekend of Kremlin willingness to negotiate. A national humiliation was under way.

“The Georgians have lost almost everything,” the official said. “We always told them, ‘Don’t do this because the Russians do not have limited aims.’ ”




Offline Bakes

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2008, 08:37:32 PM »

obviously you are new to robert kagan. he'll give you a certain perspective that would have been popular about 6 years ago.

Aren't we gifted with the assumptions.

I deliberately included that snippet about Kagan's present and past affiliations so that people could put it in whatever perspective they want.  On this issue he strikes me as spot on with his assessment.  It is tremendously naive for anyone to think that the Russians were on Georgian soil as part of any peacekeeping mission... I'm sure their handing out passports was part of that effor to keep the peace as well.  The details as to who fired first cannot conclusively be established since there were no external observers to provide an impartial report.  The Russians would not have massed troops ahead of time so as to tip their hand and betray their intentions to the West... with the circumstances being as nebulous as they are, they'd want nothing more than to claim that they were only responding to Georgian aggression... which makes absolutely no sense.  Why would the Georgians attack the Russians?

Misplaced sense of bravado requires a certain suspension of logic and an embrace of conjecture in it's place.  We could accept guesses or we could go to the source


Rebuke of a President, in the Boom of Artillery

August 12, 2008

By ANDREW E. KRAMER

GORI, Georgia — All but under the thumb of the Russian Army, this city might seem an unlikely place for a news conference by the Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili, the New York lawyer who became one of the youngest presidents in the world when he was elected here in 2004 at the age of 36.

But there he was on Monday, stepping out of a black S.U.V. onto a sidewalk strewn with broken glass.

Wearing slacks and a flak jacket looped over his strapping shoulders, he took a few steps toward the backdrop he had in mind — bombed apartment buildings — when a Russian jet flew overhead. It hissed faintly as it moved quickly over the city.

His guards pointed at the sky. They yelled “Air! Air!” and a moment of panic ensued. They shoved the president hard backward toward a wall covered in grape vines, then onto the ground, and held a flak jacket over him.

Some piled on top, to shield him from possible shrapnel. A moment later, he was back in the S.U.V. and speeding down an alleyway here, in a city that he announced on Georgian television had been overrun by the Russian Army — though the Russians, and other Georgian officials, denied it.

For a moment, though, hunkered on the ground, Mr. Saakashvili looked totally vulnerable in what may be a defining image of his presidency.

In this war, which began last Thursday with an artillery exchange between Georgia’s army and separatists in South Ossetia backed by Russia, Russia has wielded all the hard power. Mr. Saakashvili has fought back with soft power: the polished international image, the fluent English, repeated, eloquent appeals on cable news for Western support and, frequently, near histrionic claims about Russian intentions and actions in the conflict.

Educated at Columbia Law School in the mid-1990s, Mr. Saakashvili has carefully cultivated Western reporters and is well known in Washington, where he is close to conservative politicians. When Senator John McCain visited Georgia in 2006, the president took him out on the Black Sea.

Mr. Saakashvili belongs to a generation of young men and women from the former Soviet Union who were educated in the West but returned to their home countries. He proudly professes to hold “American values.”

His personal, fierce allegiance to the United States, where he became a successful lawyer, has helped make Georgia, a onetime backwater, into a pivotal country in the politics of the post-Soviet era.

Mr. Saakashvili was also a strong supporter of the American-led war in Iraq, contributing the second largest contingent of troops this year after only Britain, before the soldiers returned to Georgia this week to join the fighting.

The Bush administration, with its broad assurances of support for Georgia, has come in for strong criticism in Georgia for having emboldened Mr. Saakashvili to challenge Russia.

But Mr. Saakashvili has resisted the notion that he was somehow taken in. Asked in a recent interview on CNN if he believed Georgia could win against Russia militarily, Mr. Saakashvili said, “I am not crazy.”


But many here say he is headstrong and reckless, endangering the country’s security by rashly ordering an attack on the Russian enclave of South Ossetia on the eve of the Olympic Games in Beijing, and badly underestimating Russia’s determination to respond militarily. The critics say he has shown he is willing to put his ambition ahead of the best interests of his people.

Bold gambles and dramatic gestures have always been part of Mr. Saakashvili’s political arsenal, however, and no small amount of his appeal. So, too, has been his inclination to torment his increasingly powerful neighbor.

When he won the Georgian presidency in 2003, he did so by pushing aside Eduard A. Shevardnadze, a former Soviet apparatchik, following street protests known as the Rose Revolution. It was the first of a series of pro-Western movements that spread to Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan, and alarmed the Kremlin.

He then infuriated Moscow by running for re-election on a platform of absorbing the breakaway areas of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. He managed to win back two smaller enclaves, and then set his sights on the bigger prize of South Ossetia.

On the occasions when the Kremlin appeared to strike back — shutting off gas supplies in the dead of winter, sending drones and fighter planes into Georgian air space, for example — he complained loudly, taking his case to the international news media.

At home in Georgia, Mr. Saakashvili’s bold touch was never far away, either.

He set out to eradicate corruption in the traffic police by firing all the traffic policemen. Those who wanted to rejoin had to reapply. Here, in a small way, he won.

He also purged the civil service and universities of older, Soviet-trained workers. His administration is perhaps the youngest anywhere, a cadre of 30somethings, many of whom, like the president, are Western-educated.

Not surprisingly, many cashiered civil servants were among the protesters last fall who took to the streets of Tbilisi in a large, sustained demonstration. Mr. Saakashvili, saying the protesters were inspired by a Russian-linked politician bent on staging a coup, responded by disbanding the marchers with riot police.

Now, Mr. Saakashvili calls the war a struggle not between Georgia and Russia, but between Russia and expanding Western influence in the states of the former Soviet Union.

Asked his views of Russia’s motives in the war in an interview on Saturday, he said: “They want to get rid of any democratic movement in this part of their neighborhood. That’s it. Period.”

Source



Yet another perspective:

Putin Calls Shots to Salve Old Wounds

August 12, 2008

By ELLEN BARRY

MOSCOW — Vladimir V. Putin, who came to office brooding over the wounds of a humiliated Russia, this week offered proof of its resurgence. So far, the West has been unable to check his thrust into Georgia. He is making decisions that could redraw the map of the Caucasus in Russia’s favor — or destroy relationships with Western powers that Russia once sought as strategic partners.

If there were any doubts, the last week has confirmed that Mr. Putin, who became prime minister this spring after eight years as president, is running Russia, not his successor, President Dmitri A. Medvedev. And Mr. Putin is at last able to find relief from the insults that Russia endured after the breakup of the Soviet Union.

“Georgia, in a way, is suffering for all that happened to Russia in the last 20 years,” said Alexander Rahr, a leading German foreign-policy scholar and a biographer of Mr. Putin’s.

With Russian troops poised on two fronts in Georgia, speculation abounds on what Mr. Putin really wants to do. He faces a range of options.

Russia could settle for annexing the enclaves of Abkhazia and South Ossetia — something its forces have largely accomplished. Kremlin authorities have also spoken of bringing Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia’s president, to a war crimes tribunal for what they say were attacks on civilians in Tskhinvali last week.

A further push might permanently disable the Georgian military. The most extreme option would be occupying Georgia, a country with a population of 4.4 million and a centuries-old distrust of Russia, where Western nations have long planned to run an important oil pipeline.

But while the West may see an aggressive Russia, Mr. Putin feels embattled and encircled, said Sergei Markov, the director of Moscow’s Institute for Political Studies, who has close relationships with officials in the Kremlin.

“Russia is in an extremely dangerous situation,” trapped between the obligation to protect Russian citizens and the risk of escalating into “a new cold war” with the United States, Dr. Markov said.

“Washington and the administration are playing an extremely dirty game,” he said. “They will show Putin as an occupier even if Putin is doing nothing.”

Mr. Putin and his surrogates have forcefully made the case that Russia does not plan to occupy Georgia but is acting only to defend its citizens.

In recent days, Mr. Putin has appeared on television with his sleeves rolled up, mingling with refugees on the border with South Ossetia — the very picture of a man of action.

By contrast, Mr. Medvedev is shown sitting at his desk in Moscow, giving ceremonial orders to the minister of defense.

“He is playing the game which is designed by Putin,” Mr. Rahr, who serves on the German Council on Foreign Relations, said of the new president.

Yulia L. Latynina, a frequent critic of Mr. Putin’s government, noted with amusement that on the eve of the conflict in Georgia, when President Bush and Mr. Putin were deep in conversation in Beijing at the start of the Olympics, Mr. Medvedev was taking a cruise on the Volga River.

“Now he can cruise the Volga for all the remaining years, or can go right to the Bahamas,” she wrote in Daily Magazine, a Russian Web site. “I must admit that for the first time in my life I felt admiration for the skill with which Vladimir Putin maintains his power.”

In 2000, Mr. Putin was elected president of a shaken, uncertain country. Selling off state companies to private investors had led to immense flight of capital. The economy was in shambles. But the bitterest pill of all was NATO’s expansion into Russia’s former sphere of influence.

Nothing highlighted this loss of face as much as Kosovo, where NATO helped an ethnic Albanian population wrest independence from Serbia. Russia has few allies closer than Serbia, and the 78-day American-led bombing campaign in 1999 seemed to drive home the message that a once-great power was impotent.

Mr. Putin was determined to change that. First, he reasserted state control over Russia’s natural resources companies, installing loyalists to run businesses like Yukos and punishing oligarchs who challenged his power.

With Russia then reshaped as a petro-state, flush with money from oil and natural gas, Mr. Putin has sent blunt messages to its neighbors: The flow of cheap energy can be turned off as well as on. Two years ago, after what was called the Orange Revolution swept West-friendly leaders to power in Ukraine, Russia briefly cut off the country’s flow of natural gas, sending waves of anxiety across Europe.

Now, with Russia’s swift progress in Georgia, Mr. Putin has asserted Russia’s might as a military force. Russian troops entered Senaki in western Georgia on Monday, and Moscow acknowledged for the first time that its forces had entered Georgian territory.

“I would say you have a situation in which the Russians have come to the red line,” said Dmitri Trenin, deputy director of the Carnegie Moscow Center.

In describing Mr. Putin, people often use the word “icy.” After the lurching presidency of Boris N. Yeltsin, Mr. Putin offered himself as a man in consummate control of his impulses. He does not drink liquor; he skips lunch; his great indulgence is judo.

Early in his presidency, he charmed his Western counterparts, coming across as an articulate and cosmopolitan leader. But there were always topics that brought out a different side of him.

As Mr. Yeltsin’s tough-guy prime minister, he made a stir by threatening Chechen guerrillas with gutter language: “If we catch them in the toilet, we’ll rub them out in the outhouse.”

In 2002, when a French reporter faulted Russia for killing innocent civilians in Chechnya, he suggested that if the reporter were so sympathetic to Muslims, he could arrange to have him circumcised. “I will recommend to conduct the operation so that nothing on you will grow again,” he said.

The prelude to the events in Georgia reveals Mr. Putin as both a careful actor and a visceral one. In the spring, when Western nations lined up to recognize a newly independent Kosovo, Mr. Putin answered by formally recognizing the two breakaway enclaves in Georgia.

Over the course of the last decade, the Russian government issued passports to virtually all residents of South Ossetia, a step that would become the justification for moving troops over the Georgian border. And last year, Russia suspended its compliance with the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe, which, among other things, required that it withdraw troops from Georgia and Moldova.

But emotions have flared up, sometimes unpredictably. Mr. Putin reserves a particular dislike for Mr. Saakashvili.

In April, when Mr. Putin decided to establish legal connections with the governments of the breakaway regions, the Georgian president called him and reminded him that Western leaders had made statements supporting Georgia’s position. Mr. Putin responded by telling him — in very crude terms — where he could put his statements.

“He has such a visceral attitude toward Saakashvili that that seems to drown out anything else that anyone says to him,” said a senior American official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

It may take time to work out the messages Mr. Putin has sent in the past week, but this one is clear: Russia insists on being seen as a great power. “The problem is, what kind of great power is emerging?” said Mr. Trenin, of the Carnegie Center. “Is this a great power that lives by the conventions of the world as it exists in the 21st century?”

Source
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 11:54:48 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline fishs

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2008, 09:23:33 AM »
  Allright guys I'm safe and sound in Turkey, the bottle of gold is a distant head throbbing memory now.

 Sakaasvilli made a major mistake agreed but you have to understand the provocation and the fact that he just could not give up without a fight.
True the Americans always told him it is impossible to go up against the Russians but he miscalculated the overwhelming force that Putin would have called in.
Russia always had a large force manned on the border , think about it , South Ossetia is remote to Russia's main army bases the closest is in Checnya, they in fact were waiting to move in and not just there but also in Abkhazia.

The Georgians can now look to the map being redrawn and more pressure on a fledgling economy (possibly another 100,000 refugees to look after).

« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 09:26:56 AM by fishs »
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2008, 10:12:36 AM »
Thank God you safe Fishs. What is the mood in Turkey like ?

Offline fishs

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2008, 01:06:52 PM »
Thank God you safe Fishs. What is the mood in Turkey like ?

Turkey normal, the driving still nerve racking and is kebab after kebab.
Thanks for the pray bro.
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline pecan

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2008, 01:15:27 PM »
Good to see that you are safe and sound  :beermug:
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Offline Cantona007

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2008, 02:45:09 PM »
It seems the one thing that is NOT in doubt is that whatever the  genesis of the conflict, Saakashvilli has badly mis-calculated.
Fishs, glad you are out safe...
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Offline Dutty

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2008, 05:28:12 PM »
Quote from: fishs link=topic=37961.msg461056#msg461056
[quote

Turkey normal, the driving still nerve racking and is kebab after kebab.
Thanks for the pray bro.
Quote

Nerve racking how...de highway speed??...twisty mountainous roads?...or is because de johnnie finish 10 minutes into de trip and it had nuttn else to drink?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 05:37:39 PM by Dutty »
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2008, 05:28:56 PM »
All the best fish.!!! God Bless.

P. S. You l;eave all yuh tools behind?

Offline TriniCana

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2008, 05:34:16 PM »
Thank God you safe Fishs. What is the mood in Turkey like ?

Turkey normal, the driving still nerve racking and is kebab after kebab.
Thanks for the pray bro.

Good to hear ya safe and sound, well minus dey bottle
ya could always buy ahnother one :beermug:

Offline dinho

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2008, 07:22:33 PM »
GET US OUT!



T&T students trapped in war-torn Georgia
Juhel Browne jbrowne@trinidadexpress.com

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161362753

Tuesday, August 12th 2008

   
BRING US HOME: University students Damion Sinanan, left, Safia Kadir, right, and Nanyamka Cudjoe are calling on the Trinidad and Tobago Government to help them get out of Georgia. This photo of the three friends was taken from Facebook. The background is an AP photo taken in Georgia yesterday.

Three Trinidad and Tobago university students are now stranded in Georgia, the Eastern European state which is now partly occupied by military forces from Russia.

And the young students-Safia Kadir, Nanyamka Cudjoe and Damion Sinanan-fearing the uncertainty of what their future may hold if they continue to stay in Georgia, now want to return home and are calling on their country's Government for help. (See Page 21)

"It is urgent. We would like to get out of the country now," Kadir said in a telephone interview from Georgia yesterday.

Kadir, 20, noted that she and Cudjoe, 20, had lost contact with Sinanan, who they believe to be either close to Tbilisi State University in Georgia's capital city, Tbilisi, where all three were studying stem cell medicine, or making his way towards the nearby country of Armenia.

As of yesterday, however, there were no international flights available out of Georgia.

Foreign Affairs Minister Paula Gopee-Scoon, in an interview last evening, said she had been informed that Sinanan, who belongs to the Seventh Day Adventist religion, "may have moved" to safety with a group of Seventh Day Adventist people", but was unable to provide any details.

Gopee-Scoon said Trinidad and Tobago's High Commission in London, United Kingdom, and this country's Embassy in Brussels, Belgium, had been in constant contact with Kadir and Cudjoe yesterday, as she held high level meetings at the Foreign Affairs Ministry's head office in Port of Spain to find a way to get Kadir, Cudjoe and Sinanan out of Georgia.

Kadir's father, Jamaludin, who was at the Foreign Affairs Ministry's head office in Port of Spain last evening meeting with the Ministry's Permanent Secretary, meanwhile said his daughter and Cudjoe, at great risk to themselves, tried to locate Sinanan.

He said it would cost about $18,000 to get each of the students out of Georgia via a commercial flight and added this was money not easily available to any of their families.

"The Ministry of Foreign Affairs, they have been very helpful," Jamaludin Kadir told the Express.

Kadir's father said the three students originally wanted to stay in Georgia to help anyone injured in the conflict there, but he advised them that they needed to leave the country now.

Kadir said she soon realised her father's advice was sound.

"Now is a kind of panic mentality. It is not wise to stay anywhere near, especially for foreigners. We have no idea how we would be treated," Kadir said.

Both Kadir and Cudjoe have found safe accommodation close to the international airport of Tbilisi, as they seek to get an international flight out of Georgia.

"Our checks are that the international airport is closed, so that does not look like an option. We are still in close contact with them," Gopee-Scoon said of this scenario.

As far as Armenia is concerned, Kadir said that too is not an option, since a special visa is required to enter that country, while the path to the only other country close by which does not require a visa, Turkey, is blocked by Russian forces.

Cudjoe's mother, June Paul-Cudjoe, of Bethel, Tobago, told the Express yesterday that she had spoken to her daughter earlier in the day and she was in good health.

"She told me that the city of Tbilisi and part of the international airport was bombed overnight by Russian troops," Cudjoe said.

Nanyamka, the eldest of three children, is in the third year of a six-year medical degree programme at Tbilisi State Medical University (TSMU), Tbilisi. She left Tobago in 2006 after graduating with an Advanced Level certificate from Bishop's High School, Scarborough.

Cudjoe said she was very concerned for the safety of her daughter and the others, but "we will continue to trust in the Lord to keep them safe. We have enough faith in Him to keep them safe".

She said so far she had made unsuccessful efforts to contact the British High Commission for assistance in getting her daughter out of Georgia.

The Associated Press and other international media outlets reported that Russian forces yesterday seized several cities, towns and a military base in Western Georgia, including the city of Gori which is where Kadir said she and her fellow students would need to pass in order to get to Turkey. -with reporting by Earl Manmohan
         

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #57 on: August 12, 2008, 08:18:46 PM »
  Allright guys I'm safe and sound in Turkey, the bottle of gold is a distant head throbbing memory now.

 Sakaasvilli made a major mistake agreed but you have to understand the provocation and the fact that he just could not give up without a fight.
True the Americans always told him it is impossible to go up against the Russians but he miscalculated the overwhelming force that Putin would have called in.
Russia always had a large force manned on the border , think about it , South Ossetia is remote to Russia's main army bases the closest is in Checnya, they in fact were waiting to move in and not just there but also in Abkhazia.

The Georgians can now look to the map being redrawn and more pressure on a fledgling economy (possibly another 100,000 refugees to look after).
Good that you safe
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Offline JayTheWrecker

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2008, 09:26:00 AM »
good to see you got out safe fishs

but how did you get out if you weren't prepared to fly?

did you catch a midnight train from Georgia?
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Russia Invades Georgia
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2008, 12:03:41 PM »
good to see you got out safe fishs

but how did you get out if you weren't prepared to fly?

did you catch a midnight train from Georgia?

He drove to Turkey.


-------------------

On a separate note ah see both sides agree to a ceasefire.

 

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