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Author Topic: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?  (Read 84538 times)

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Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #120 on: September 23, 2008, 12:25:28 PM »
Quote
...Asylum..yuh have me wrong. When it comes to my motives, I'd say you're guilty of an unfortunate assumption yourself.

On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent? I only ask because I had never heard of an afro-Argentine footballer (except for the kid at Boca I mentioned earlier). And it would be truly revolutionary if he were a keeper seeing as that (and coaching) are usually the last of the racial barriers in the sport. I actually see the attitudes behind goalkeeping selection similar to past attitudes regarding quarterbacks in the NFL. Anyway, Argentines typically use the term Negro not to refer to black people but Indios. Fellas like Aguero are referred to as Negros. maybe he was black but I don't have any photos so I'm asking. if you're just going by the term negro.he may not be of african descent.

Oh gorm Filho yuh go make me explain  ;D? Despite de honourable mention, that was not directed at you. Ah just call yuh name outta convenience b/c Ryan seems to be in receipt of messages solely stamped with your authority. It was a friendly volley buh yuh throw yuhself right in de mix as a casualty.  Hol' a lash fuh dat. :whip: :whip:

Yes, phenotypically Baley is a man of African descent. The usage in this instance is not purely akin to the colloquial usage you allude to.

With respect to 'keepers, I suspect you're referring to one of the most famous examples and stereotypes related to Brazilian football history. I don't have any evidence suggesting that the comparison is universally valid.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 12:28:47 PM by asylumseeker »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #121 on: September 23, 2008, 01:15:31 PM »
Bakes..Kicker. Points well taken. The post is not well written, but that can happen when you are in a rush to make a point..as I am now. Anyway..you're taking it a bit literally. I think the topic is full of good information and excellent discussion. What is lacking from the discussion are real-life experiences. Otherwise, I think after while, nothing of real value is added. I am not saying to stop talkng the talk in its entirety, but I meant we should stop at this point as i thought we were starting to beat a dead horse. Plus, as you can see I had an ulterior motive. I was interested to see what people's response would be to the questions I asked and see if there were actually parrallels that can be drawn between T&T and Argentina. My hypothesis...maybe we are not all so different as we'd like to think. Maybe we are. I was curious. And as for most people being ignorant and passing off opinion as fact...i stand by that as it pertains to the subdiscussion as to the actual effect of racism on black footballers' opportunities in Argentina today.


Another example of why I usually try harder to temper my disagreements when it comes to you (whenever we do disagree)... very fair very sensible post.  :beermug:

You make good points in saying that until fresh (and perhaps more authentic perspectives come in we're talking in circles.  I understand your clarification and agree with most of it.  In fact your posts, and Kicker's and a couple others have made me realize that whether intentional or not I was painting all Argentinians with one broad brush...which is not only unfair, but unsound logic.  My issue is with what I perceive as the systematic attempt by successive Argentinian governments, and with (again, what I perceive as) Argentine society's deliberate attempt to whitewash the populace, in this case at the detriment of Afro-Argentines.  It is in part due to this perspective that I think it fair to conclude that given the concentrated efforts to sweep them under the rug, it isn't too far a leap to conclude that there may well have been/be efforts to similarly keep them from such high-profile situations as playing for the national team.

The error I make is in presenting my opinion as though all of Argentina is complicit in this, when in fact I forget that many Argentines themselves have suffered under similar oppression at the hands of their governments,  and many are simply too otherwise pre-occupied to worry about what's going on with Afro-Argentinos, or to harbor ill will towards them.  Similar to the US, given it's past history of pervasive racism... there are many wonderful people that I've had the privilege of knowing here, of different races and different walks in life.

Can't say that I have walked in their shoes, but plenty man does be talking about slavery and were never slaves themselves. Man does be talking about  footballers and were never fotballers of any standing themselves.
What I do know is this when Carlos Menem was President, he was asked about Argentinian black population, his reply was "we don't have that problem, Brazil has that problem."

Take a read

http://horte.over-blog.fr/article-22965857.html



Big post Observer... read it with relish from beginning to end.  Much of what was described in the first half is a neat synopsis of stuff I've read from other sources over the years... but the second part was all new to me and I really appreciate the candor with which the researchers discussed their experiences with the poll.

One thing I wasn't in total agreement was this

Quote
BUENOS AIRES -- Their disappearance is one of Argentina's most enduring mysteries. In 1810, black residents accounted for about 30 percent of the population of Buenos Aires. By 1887, however, their numbers had plummeted to 1.8 percent

They later on seemed to indicate that the population drop can be attributed to miscegenation, but still... 1810-1887 is only 77 yrs, or one generation.  I don't know how in the world race-mixing can account for such a precipitous drop in the population in just one generation.

Offline Filho

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #122 on: September 23, 2008, 01:23:12 PM »
Quote
...Asylum..yuh have me wrong. When it comes to my motives, I'd say you're guilty of an unfortunate assumption yourself.

On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent? I only ask because I had never heard of an afro-Argentine footballer (except for the kid at Boca I mentioned earlier). And it would be truly revolutionary if he were a keeper seeing as that (and coaching) are usually the last of the racial barriers in the sport. I actually see the attitudes behind goalkeeping selection similar to past attitudes regarding quarterbacks in the NFL. Anyway, Argentines typically use the term Negro not to refer to black people but Indios. Fellas like Aguero are referred to as Negros. maybe he was black but I don't have any photos so I'm asking. if you're just going by the term negro.he may not be of african descent.

Oh gorm Filho yuh go make me explain  ;D? Despite de honourable mention, that was not directed at you. Ah just call yuh name outta convenience b/c Ryan seems to be in receipt of messages solely stamped with your authority. It was a friendly volley buh yuh throw yuhself right in de mix as a casualty.  Hol' a lash fuh dat. :whip: :whip:

Yes, phenotypically Baley is a man of African descent. The usage in this instance is not purely akin to the colloquial usage you allude to.

With respect to 'keepers, I suspect you're referring to one of the most famous examples and stereotypes related to Brazilian football history. I don't have any evidence suggesting that the comparison is universally valid.



thanks for the info

hear nah...i find two pistle was excessive. one was enough  :beermug:

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #123 on: September 23, 2008, 01:38:49 PM »
Can't say that I have walked in their shoes, but plenty man does be talking about slavery and were never slaves themselves. Man does be talking about  footballers and were never fotballers of any standing themselves.
What I do know is this when Carlos Menem was President, he was asked about Argentinian black population, his reply was "we don't have that problem, Brazil has that problem."

Take a read

http://horte.over-blog.fr/article-22965857.html



Big post Observer... read it with relish from beginning to end.  Much of what was described in the first half is a neat synopsis of stuff I've read from other sources over the years... but the second part was all new to me and I really appreciate the candor with which the researchers discussed their experiences with the poll.

One thing I wasn't in total agreement was this

Quote
BUENOS AIRES -- Their disappearance is one of Argentina's most enduring mysteries. In 1810, black residents accounted for about 30 percent of the population of Buenos Aires. By 1887, however, their numbers had plummeted to 1.8 percent

They later on seemed to indicate that the population drop can be attributed to miscegenation, but still... 1810-1887 is only 77 yrs, or one generation.  I don't know how in the world race-mixing can account for such a precipitous drop in the population in just one generation.

Technically, dahis more than one generation, buh ah hear yuh otherwise.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #124 on: September 23, 2008, 01:40:34 PM »
Technically, dahis more than one generation, buh ah hear yuh otherwise.
To be honest with you I not even sure how dey does count 'generation'... I usually think of it in terms of the average life span for the respective societies/populations.

Offline DeSoWa

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #125 on: September 23, 2008, 01:45:22 PM »
Technically, dahis more than one generation, buh ah hear yuh otherwise.
To be honest with you I not even sure how dey does count 'generation'... I usually think of it in terms of the average life span for the respective societies/populations.

I might be wrong, but I always assume it to be a 40-year period...

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Offline Observer

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #126 on: September 23, 2008, 02:21:30 PM »
Bake n Shark all I could say is it must have been one hell of an orgy.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead
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Offline just cool

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #127 on: September 23, 2008, 02:33:13 PM »
Ah gereration is most likely 20 yrs. don't qoute me though.           positive.
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline Peong

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #128 on: September 23, 2008, 02:53:21 PM »
A generation is is just how long it takes from the time yuh born til the time yuh makin babies.
It real vague, but it's shorter than a lifetime.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #129 on: September 23, 2008, 02:54:30 PM »
I might be wrong, but I always assume it to be a 40-year period...

Big Up!

You, Asylum and Peong near if not on de mark... ah finally Google it, lol

"The average interval of time between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring."










Observer... doh fack mih up  :rotfl:

Offline kicker

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #130 on: September 23, 2008, 03:03:04 PM »
Bake n Shark all I could say is it must have been one hell of an orgy.


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Offline Toussaint

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #131 on: September 25, 2008, 04:43:44 PM »
(from an article published in Argentina this week on Haitian defender Judelin Aveska)

En el primer tiempo casi convierte un gol de cabeza. Ahí fue cuando los simpatizantes leprosos, por su sacrificio, lo ovacionaron. “Negroooo, Negrooooo...”, le gritaron.

after he almost scored a header in the first half, the supporters of his club Lepra gave him a round of applause for his courage chanting "negroooo, Negroooo!"
...l'arbre de la liberte des noirs.

Offline najee

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #132 on: September 26, 2008, 12:04:32 PM »
I was reading everyone post and it hit meh..... where is all the chinese and Indian football players...you mean to tell me there is none that is very good  to make the national team at all level is there bias in the selection process... I think so...hmmmm... I don't think we are different then any other country in south america....look how long its been and i talking about 1908 to now that i know ah indian or chinese Trinibagoian making the national team ...i don't know for the past national team...oh yea..Manny Ramjohn... ah never see him play but he look indian... coolie who also indian was very good in my book...but never get call for the national at any level...i could be wrong and i hope iam but That have to change and i hope TTFF seeing that and doing something to correct it

Offline BALL FATHER

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #133 on: September 27, 2008, 09:15:58 AM »
I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?

Offline najee

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #134 on: September 27, 2008, 11:46:16 AM »
I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?

is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead

Offline Filho

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #135 on: September 27, 2008, 12:54:27 PM »
I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?

is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead

his father is Juan Ramon Veron. Google him and you will see what pops looks like. Veron obviously isn't considered black by mainstream Argentina. Given all that we have read, we can't dicount that he may be one of the small percentage of Argentines with some black heritage. But it isn't really visible in his features although he has darker skin and shaves his head and wears a goatee - a style that lends people to ask if he has any African in him. short answer is...if he has any African in him, it's a small percentage of his make up. not enough to call him black. if he has any identifiable black family..trust me..the world would know. he is not an obscure footballer. He's probably mostly spanish mixed with some native argentine indian. Then again, there are some native Spaniards who are naturally brownish..so he may not be mixed with African or 'indian' at all.

Offline Zeppo

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #136 on: September 27, 2008, 03:03:08 PM »

his father is Juan Ramon Veron. Google him and you will see what pops looks like.

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Offline najee

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #137 on: September 27, 2008, 03:35:16 PM »
I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?

is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead



his father is Juan Ramon Veron. Google him and you will see what pops looks like. Veron obviously isn't considered black by mainstream Argentina. Given all that we have read, we can't dicount that he may be one of the small percentage of Argentines with some black heritage. But it isn't really visible in his features although he has darker skin and shaves his head and wears a goatee - a style that lends people to ask if he has any African in him. short answer is...if he has any African in him, it's a small percentage of his make up. not enough to call him black. if he has any identifiable black family..trust me..the world would know. he is not an obscure footballer. He's probably mostly spanish mixed with some native argentine indian. Then again, there are some native Spaniards who are naturally brownish..so he may not be mixed with African or 'indian' at all.



Well Filho his father look full spanish to me....he could be the brown type...Juan could argu he as no black or half of black in him

Offline 100% Barataria

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #138 on: September 27, 2008, 03:39:50 PM »
I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?

is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead



his father is Juan Ramon Veron. Google him and you will see what pops looks like. Veron obviously isn't considered black by mainstream Argentina. Given all that we have read, we can't dicount that he may be one of the small percentage of Argentines with some black heritage. But it isn't really visible in his features although he has darker skin and shaves his head and wears a goatee - a style that lends people to ask if he has any African in him. short answer is...if he has any African in him, it's a small percentage of his make up. not enough to call him black. if he has any identifiable black family..trust me..the world would know. he is not an obscure footballer. He's probably mostly spanish mixed with some native argentine indian. Then again, there are some native Spaniards who are naturally brownish..so he may not be mixed with African or 'indian' at all.



Well Filho his father look full spanish to me....he could be the brown type...Juan could argu he as no black or half of black in him


The article I posted before claims he's black, his mother doesn't look black either, but he could be a throw back  ;D
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Offline najee

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #139 on: September 27, 2008, 03:59:05 PM »
Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black

Offline Sando prince

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #140 on: September 27, 2008, 04:37:27 PM »
Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black


I too will like to see more Trinbagonians of other races featured in our national team..we are a diverse country and  I would like to see some of that diversity on the field but its sad that white, spanish, chinese and Indian Trinis dont get involved in football as much as blacks therefore there are not much footballers from these races to choose from ....you see first we have to start from the schools and more indo trini students at schools choose cricket over football..and when its time for football screening when school done, yuh only see mostly black students trying to make the team..so from the grass roots lies the problem...maybe that will change in the future

*Going ah lil further with this*.Ah mean to say man ...look at the Iranian national team! Look at the South Korean national team!..they have done very well at the international level..so when it comes to football you dont have to be black or white to produce...
« Last Edit: September 27, 2008, 05:00:00 PM by Sando prince »

Offline 100% Barataria

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #141 on: September 27, 2008, 05:04:16 PM »
Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black

Sense Najee, actually a very good Argentine friend of mine w/whom I went to grad. school claims him as black, but that's one data pt. I have, can't comment on the general consensus in Tina....
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Offline najee

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #142 on: September 27, 2008, 05:58:23 PM »
Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black

Sense Najee, actually a very good Argentine friend of mine w/whom I went to
grad. school claims him as black, but that's one data pt. I have, can't comment on the general consensus in Tina....



yea..lol...well ah guess since he here in the state..unless you talking about Trini...he will consider himself black...but went he in Argentina...ah don't think so...

Offline Bakes

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2008, 07:08:40 AM »
Not the same... but kinda related, I just saw a visitcolombia.com ad here on TV and I was pleasantly surprised by the numbers of Afro-colombians who were featured in the tourism spot.  They really seemed intent on showcasing their diversity and the overall friendliness of the people.

Shame that violence remains such a potent risk there... definitely wouldn't mind visiting one day.

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #144 on: September 30, 2008, 02:11:51 PM »
Bear in mind that in Northern Colmbia near the Caribberan sea and on the Pacific coast - both places where many tourists go, there is a higher concentration of Africans than say Bogota, where you see almost none.

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Offline Filho

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #145 on: September 30, 2008, 03:20:58 PM »
Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black

Sense Najee, actually a very good Argentine friend of mine w/whom I went to grad. school claims him as black, but that's one data pt. I have, can't comment on the general consensus in Tina....

Najee...that is unfortunately true throughout Latin America and the Caribbean. From my experience (don't hold me to it as fact), North Americans and Europeans are more likely to claim to be black even when they are clearly mixed, sometimes having stronger European features than African ones. That said..I wouldn't make any assumptions about JSV. You never know. He may be or may have been proud of his black heritage if he had any. Remember, some of the research about blacks in Argentina is being provided by afro-Argentines who don't look visibly black. In the polls, there were those who answered truthfully about their heritage and I once read an article that was posted right on here about white Argentines who kept photos of ancestors, some of whom were visibly of African origin.

But I understand how someone like Veron having some African ancestry would seem very cool since afro-Argentines have no visibility in Argentina and this guy is a national icon. But when you think about it, Veron being considered black is like the millions of black people who have some European ancestry that is not visible in their features being considered white.

Offline Zeppo

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #146 on: October 01, 2008, 04:35:49 AM »
I know they racist! But what race is Juan Sebastein Veron?

is he black...i used to tell myself that...them after i will say nah...he full white spanish with ah baldhead

I think it is most likely a combination of European (Spanish) and Indian blood.

I also remember when he played in Argentina with Boca Jrs before going to Europe. Back then he didn't have a goatee and his head wasn't shaved completely bald, and I recall that his hair was straight and not kinky.

Here is a photo from those days, although it's rather hard to see from this one:

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #147 on: October 01, 2008, 06:32:23 AM »
Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black


I too will like to see more Trinbagonians of other races featured in our national team..we are a diverse country and  I would like to see some of that diversity on the field but its sad that white, spanish, chinese and Indian Trinis dont get involved in football as much as blacks therefore there are not much footballers from these races to choose from ....you see first we have to start from the schools and more indo trini students at schools choose cricket over football..and when its time for football screening when school done, yuh only see mostly black students trying to make the team..so from the grass roots lies the problem...maybe that will change in the future

*Going ah lil further with this*.Ah mean to say man ...look at the Iranian national team! Look at the South Korean national team!..they have done very well at the international level..so when it comes to football you dont have to be black or white to produce...

and what makes you think whites, indians and chinese dont play football in trinidad? There are large numbers that do play football throughout the country, its a matter of selection and sterotype that keeps many off national teams and club football.

Offline najee

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #148 on: October 01, 2008, 07:56:11 AM »
Barataria...the article may say he black ...but you , I and some other on this topic know they not going to claim , say or think they are..if they are...you talking about Argentinian ...they don't like black people down there in Argentina...I as a Trinibagoian would like to see more white, spanish, chinese and Indian...good ball players to waren call up to national level...and by the way iam 100% black


I too will like to see more Trinbagonians of other races featured in our national team..we are a diverse country and  I would like to see some of that diversity on the field but its sad that white, spanish, chinese and Indian Trinis dont get involved in football as much as blacks therefore there are not much footballers from these races to choose from ....you see first we have to start from the schools and more indo trini students at schools choose cricket over football..and when its time for football screening when school done, yuh only see mostly black students trying to make the team..so from the grass roots lies the problem...maybe that will change in the future

*Going ah lil further with this*.Ah mean to say man ...look at the Iranian national team! Look at the South Korean national team!..they have done very well at the international level..so when it comes to football you dont have to be black or white to produce...

and what makes you think whites, indians and chinese dont play football in trinidad? There are large numbers that do play football throughout the country, its a matter of selection and sterotype that keeps many off national teams and club football.



I didn't think that...i know ah few that play and very good ....but like you said ...they not getting the opportunity and that have to change.... yeah talking about 1908 to now

Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #149 on: October 01, 2008, 08:23:49 AM »
I want to categorically disagree with On de Block and Najee and Sando Prince is spot on in his statement.  It's so easy to use the discrimination cop out. I refer to my earlier post in this thread. If more indians or chinese or whoever actually dedicated the time and effort to pursue football as a career you would see more 'diversity' in professional and national teams. At every level of organised football (down to minor league) in T&T you will find that overwhelming majority of players are black. I don't think that fact means there is discrimination in football.

 

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