July 20, 2024, 10:27:19 AM

Author Topic: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?  (Read 84143 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Saltanfresh

  • Sr. Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
  • Doi! Doi! Doi!....everytime
    • View Profile
Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« on: September 19, 2008, 03:37:17 PM »
 IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity? What happened to the slaves in Argentina after slavery was abolished?

If Germany and Italy could have black players in clubs and even for their country why have we never even seen a black Argentine playing for a club?

For those who may be interested like I was, this makes for an enlightening read:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine


Offline FF

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 7513
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2008, 03:39:21 PM »
we had this topic come up before...

but yeah pretty much 9 of 10 south american countries plus guyana, suriname have black fellas playing for dem regular....

only one odd man out  :-\
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES

Offline Jah Gol

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 8493
  • Ronaldinho is the best player of our era
    • View Profile
    • The Ministry of Noise
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2008, 03:42:37 PM »
Colombia,Ecuador, Venezuela and Uruguay have black players. 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 04:18:33 PM by Jah Gol »

Offline Deeks

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18691
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2008, 03:50:10 PM »
I have seen a couple Black players on the Bolivia team.

Offline Trini _2026

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 13604
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2008, 04:04:15 PM »
IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity? What happened to the slaves in Argentina after slavery was abolished?

If Germany and Italy could have black players in clubs and even for their country why have we never even seen a black Argentine playing for a club?

For those who may be interested like I was, this makes for an enlightening read:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine



 is veron afro-argentine or mixed
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 04:16:26 PM by Trini _2010 »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/sh8SeGmzai4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/sh8SeGmzai4</a>

Offline Bally

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2008, 04:27:09 PM »
Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still donít clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they donít get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism
Empty barrels make the most noise

Offline scooby

  • Full Warrior
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2008, 04:44:08 PM »


Posts: 1179



     Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
ę Reply #5 on: Today at 04:27:09 PM Ľ Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Argentina is one of the most racist countries in the world most of the population clam to be white in there country censes even is their mix race they still donít clam black its not a good place for black anyway why you think they donít get along with Brazilians plus all the Nazi and Italians from world war 2 escape to Argentina hence there racism                                     correct absolutely true                                                               

Offline elan

  • Go On ......Get In There!!!!!!!!
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 11629
  • WaRRioR fOr LiFe!!!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2008, 04:59:31 PM »
F@*k them, ........idiots.  >:(
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/blUSVALW_Z4</a>

Offline palos

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 11529
  • Test
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2008, 05:00:21 PM »
You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.

Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.

Always struck me as kinda strange.
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline CarenageBoy

  • Sr. Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 469
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2008, 05:01:28 PM »
All Latin-American countries have fallen down with various degrees of the Euro-Centric Racism virus.

However, in fairness to both Argentina and Peru, they both have very small populations of African origin. These populations only represent a tiny percentage of their populations. This is especially true in the case of Argentina.

Offline FF

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 7513
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2008, 07:08:36 PM »
You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.

Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.

Always struck me as kinda strange.

True talk

wha bout Melvin Brown have real caps for Mexico though... but he is ah kinda dougla something
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2008, 08:45:51 PM »
You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.

Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.

Always struck me as kinda strange.

Uhm no... doh put Mexico in dat shit.  Mexico has never had any sizeable afro-descent population.  A simple Google on Afro-Argentines or "black Argentinians" (aside from the Wikipedia link provided) would give you an insight.  Argentina's attitudes towards it's black population can easily be compared to that of Australia and the Aboriginies... if you can't sweep them under the rug then get them to assimilate to the point that they have no identity and remain on the fringes of society.  Neither self, nor other.

At least blacks who have lived in Mexico, and I know of a couple... haven't reported anything negative...take Gally for example.

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18140
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2008, 10:15:15 PM »
You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.

Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.

Always struck me as kinda strange.

The number of black players represented in the primera and lower divisions is improving (but I can't say it's a function of race) ... if we're talking Mexicans, that's truly something else, but Mexican futbol collectively features more than a handful of black Colombians, Brazilians and others.

Some of these players are "franchise" type players. For instance, Cristian Benitez of Ecuador (Santos Laguna) and Hugo Rodallega of Colombia (Necaxa). Benitez has excelled. Rodallega is less consistent but is in that category nonetheless.

Now, in terms of legacy ... way back in the day a baller like Francois Omam-Biyik (author of the goal that saw Cameroon defeat Argentina at the 1990 World Cup) played in Mexico for Cuauhtemoc Blanco's former club - America.

On top of that today yuh have other players like Felipe Baloy from Panama.

+++

Lehme also add ... We're quick to rush Argentina in terms of race relations (and ah understand the temptation), buh if we take the valid question Palos asked about Mexico and turn the microscope on Argentina's club ball ... in fairness, we also hadda admit that several black ballers play in the Argentine league ranks.  Wanchope had a stint there with Rosario Central. And, River and Boca and other clubs have looked at black players periodically without regard to race.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 10:17:09 PM by asylumseeker »

Offline vb

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *
  • Posts: 8285
    • View Profile
    • http://www.caribsport01.homestead.com/caribsport.html
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2008, 10:25:07 PM »
So when it come to Indians not playing for TT, is becz they not good enough and spindly legs.

But Blacks in Argentina is becz they racist?

VB
VITAMIN V...KEEPS THE LADIES HEALTHY...:-)

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18140
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2008, 10:36:57 PM »
You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.

Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.

Always struck me as kinda strange.

True talk

wha bout Melvin Brown have real caps for Mexico though... but he is ah kinda dougla something

Well, somebody in the picture had to be "typically" Mexican so hence his 'look', birth and citizenship. He's born in a part of Mexico with a rich history of connection with ppl of African descent. When we say 'black' in the context of Mexico by our external definition yuh probably hadda include Melvin Brown, notwithstanding a Trini concept like 'dougla'. From the point of view of a Mexican definition it may not necessarily be the same.

Compare him to this guy www.kalimba.com.mx  We cyah really just go on externals.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 11:41:10 AM by asylumseeker »

Offline Bally

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2008, 10:40:05 PM »
VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes
Empty barrels make the most noise

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18140
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2008, 10:56:25 PM »
You could ask the same question of Mexico for example.

Matter of fact, yuh could count de number of black players playin in Mexico league on 1 hand.

Always struck me as kinda strange.

Uhm no... doh put Mexico in dat shit.  Mexico has never had any sizeable afro-descent population.  A simple Google on Afro-Argentines or "black Argentinians" (aside from the Wikipedia link provided) would give you an insight.  Argentina's attitudes towards it's black population can easily be compared to that of Australia and the Aboriginies... if you can't sweep them under the rug then get them to assimilate to the point that they have no identity and remain on the fringes of society.  Neither self, nor other.

At least blacks who have lived in Mexico, and I know of a couple... haven't reported anything negative...take Gally for example.

As enlightening ;) as this discussion is, ah doh want to compromise this side of the forum by delving further, but Bakes you should have a look at http://www.isteve.com/2002_Where_Did_Mexicos_Blacks_Go.htm

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2008, 11:08:59 PM »
So when it come to Indians not playing for TT, is becz they not good enough and spindly legs.

But Blacks in Argentina is becz they racist?

VB

Do Indians suffer disproportionately from the effects of racism in TnT?  If you can answer 'yes' to that then and only then do they deserve mention in the same sentence as Afro-Argentinos.


-----------

Asylum...good post.  Never heard of that site before, but I have my doubts about the scholarship.  Here is one that I came across a while ago though, we were talking about Afro-Mexicanos on another site.  I have to admit that until that time I had no idea there was even such a thing :-\

Offline Midknight

  • Midknight
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5733
  • President of the Reality Check Commitee
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2008, 11:19:23 PM »
Argentina's been pretty much done to death, but I will check out the varying views on the black mexicans
Go Black if you want Jack to Track Back! I support all Soca Warriors - Red, White and Blacklisted.

D baddest SW compilation ever

Offline just cool

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 8065
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2008, 12:33:38 AM »
IF slaves worked in all these former colonies in South America, then how come you only see Brazil and Peru with players of African ethnicity? What happened to the slaves in Argentina after slavery was abolished?

If Germany and Italy could have black players in clubs and even for their country why have we never even seen a black Argentine playing for a club?

For those who may be interested like I was, this makes for an enlightening read:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Argentine


Listen horse , they damn near kill out all the black ppl in argentina, and who they didn't kill ran into neighboring countries like Brazil and Bolivia or assimulate into white argentine society, there is but ah remnant of African decent in nazi argentina, and i do mean that literally. just read up on che govera,  he addressed it in some of his literature.

the whole of the latin world despise black , and i would tend to believe is derived from the Moorish conquest from the 8th century till the 13th century of the iberian peninsular.

they forgot one thing though ! it's the moores who civilized them and taught them the arts and build up their society, by making them the most astute and sophisticated european country in that period.

and oh yeah, yuh know that spanish guiter they're so proud of! well guess who gave that to them together with horses. THE SAME NEGRO MOORE WHO THEY LOVE TO HATE.

that's why them spanish muts ( hispanic) love to call black ppl mooreno.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 12:39:21 AM by just cool »
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline vb

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *
  • Posts: 8285
    • View Profile
    • http://www.caribsport01.homestead.com/caribsport.html
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2008, 03:52:05 AM »
So when it come to Indians not playing for TT, is becz they not good enough and spindly legs.

But Blacks in Argentina is becz they racist?

VB

Do Indians suffer disproportionately from the effects of racism in TnT?  If you can answer 'yes' to that then and only then do they deserve mention in the same sentence as Afro-Argentinos.


-----------

Asylum...good post.  Never heard of that site before, but I have my doubts about the scholarship.  Here is one that I came across a while ago though, we were talking about Afro-Mexicanos on another site.  I have to admit that until that time I had no idea there was even such a thing :-\

You doh know de answer to that question?? I wouldn't waste my time with it.

Latinos do have a problem with AFricans but many of them also marry Africans. I know endless black people with spouses from Chile, Clombia, Argentina etc. I have found their attitude towards ppl of African descent pretty much like Americans. Some love you, some don't.

VB
VITAMIN V...KEEPS THE LADIES HEALTHY...:-)

Offline Filho

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5368
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2008, 06:58:20 AM »
VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes

really dumb question.

Offline Filho

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5368
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2008, 07:45:05 AM »
So when it come to Indians not playing for TT, is becz they not good enough and spindly legs.

But Blacks in Argentina is becz they racist?

VB

Do Indians suffer disproportionately from the effects of racism in TnT?  If you can answer 'yes' to that then and only then do they deserve mention in the same sentence as Afro-Argentinos.


-----------

Asylum...good post.  Never heard of that site before, but I have my doubts about the scholarship.  Here is one that I came across a while ago though, we were talking about Afro-Mexicanos on another site.  I have to admit that until that time I had no idea there was even such a thing :-\

vb. i think you got the original post wrong. the point was not to say black argentines don't necessarily get the breaks today..but more that the population is so small due to historical prejudice, that independent of any possible bias today, blacks are unlikely to turn out on football teams in Argentina.

but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society. Trinis of Indian descent may feel they are unfairly marginalized when it comes to football in T&T even if in most aspects of everyday life they face little or no hurdles. i don't mean to simplify things..but there are aspects in life where a black man has an advantages, or is perceived as naturally more gifted than a white man, even in countries where that black man may face extreme discrimination. indians may not face nearly as much prejudice in every day life as afro argentines, but who's to say that Argentines don't have a more positive perception of black footballers than the average Trini does of indian footballers.
 

Offline vb

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *
  • Posts: 8285
    • View Profile
    • http://www.caribsport01.homestead.com/caribsport.html
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2008, 11:32:55 AM »
Filho,

with respect, I got the question, hence the reason I made such an ignorant statement.

When making it about Africans instead of Indians one can perhaps see it in a different light.

In Sam's original post a few months ago about Indians not making the national team, other than being less talented than Africans in this endeavour, I outlined some social, racial and econimic factors that would mitigate their success. I also gave an example of India, a billion ppl,  but had political, social and economic factors that held them back.

I am sure that in the last 30 years there might have been some Africans of true talent in Argentina, despite their small numbers. However, a lack of representation is not always indicative of a lack of talent, eg. a lack of world class swimmers and golfers. One has to look at the social, political and other factors that mitigate this success; in addition to just a lack of numbers.

Peace,
VB
VITAMIN V...KEEPS THE LADIES HEALTHY...:-)

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18140
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2008, 11:48:54 AM »
Perhaps Jack should invest some of his considerable resources and known social capital into bridging the involvement gap of Indians in local football?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 11:55:45 AM by asylumseeker »

Offline Bally

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 1552
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2008, 11:51:29 AM »
VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes

really dumb question.
Real dumb you name one right now that could the side
Empty barrels make the most noise

Offline vb

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *
  • Posts: 8285
    • View Profile
    • http://www.caribsport01.homestead.com/caribsport.html
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2008, 12:12:41 PM »
VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes

really dumb question.
Real dumb you name one right now that could the side

Tell me how many in the past weren't given a chance to make the side.

VB
VITAMIN V...KEEPS THE LADIES HEALTHY...:-)

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2008, 12:35:29 PM »
Filho,

with respect, I got the question, hence the reason I made such an ignorant statement.

When making it about Africans instead of Indians one can perhaps see it in a different light.

In Sam's original post a few months ago about Indians not making the national team, other than being less talented than Africans in this endeavour, I outlined some social, racial and econimic factors that would mitigate their success. I also gave an example of India, a billion ppl,  but had political, social and economic factors that held them back.

I am sure that in the last 30 years there might have been some Africans of true talent in Argentina, despite their small numbers. However, a lack of representation is not always indicative of a lack of talent, eg. a lack of world class swimmers and golfers. One has to look at the social, political and other factors that mitigate this success; in addition to just a lack of numbers.

Peace,
VB

Actually, I'm really not sure which original question you claim you got because I still don't see how you could make such a ridiculous comparison.  As you rightly said, there are a number of other factors which mitigate against Indians in TnT being more successful at football.  While I can't say that these factors don't exist, mitigating against blacks in Argentina, you apparently failed to appreciate the context within which the question was posed. 

Compared to neighboring South American countries who've all had similar afro-descent populations, Argentina stands conspicuously alone when one examines the history of her black citizens, when one looks at the dearth of blacks who've made it onto the team...CLEARLY there is something wrong with that picture.

Now let's talk about Indians in TnT.  You first need to appreciate that there is a difference between prejudice and racism.  I find it absolutely incredulous that you would even try and argue (unless I got your "You doh know de answer to that question?? wrong) that Indians have suffered disproportionate racism in TnT.  Has there EVER (at least since Independence) been a systematic attempt to exclude Indians from representation on various levels in Trini society?  Have they lacked for opportunities denied them by an entrenched attitude that consider them inferior?  I could really go on and on but...again, unless I misunderstand you...I'd like to give you an opportunity to clarify/elaborate, before continuing.


---------

Filho,  I'm not sure how from one little question about whether Indians have suffered disproportionately from the effects of racism you derived this "but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society."  I'm really not sure what 'aligning' I did.  Being discriminated against in football by no means is tantamount to disproportionate prejudice in every regard.  This is akin to saying that whites in America have suffered disproportionately because we don't see more white Americans in the NBA.  There is no way whites in that regard belong in any conversation about 'racism' in America.

Similarly I'm curious as to how the experiences of Indians in TnT can be compared to that of blacks in Argentina.

Offline vb

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *
  • Posts: 8285
    • View Profile
    • http://www.caribsport01.homestead.com/caribsport.html
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2008, 12:45:45 PM »
Let me put it in a nutshell.

When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)

Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.

Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better.  ::)

VB
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 01:09:46 PM by vb »
VITAMIN V...KEEPS THE LADIES HEALTHY...:-)

Offline Toussaint

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 960
  • ...l'arbre de la liberte des noirs.
    • View Profile
    • Haiti Spors
Re: Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2008, 01:17:58 PM »
Interesting question. However, if you consider soccer is the national sport overthere and over 90% Argentines are either whites or mixed (whites/natives) it quite understandable that they don't have yet a black player representing them.

I do know however that they have had a scholarship program back in the 90s while they were trying to diversify their country. Many Haitian students went to Argentina. Ironically, Mexico has a similar program. I for instance know of one black Haitian player named Alexandre Boucicot in the Mexican league.

We also need to remember the race issue has not yet been addressed in all american countries. If countries like Haiti, Jamaica, Guyana, Surinam, Trinidad, Dominican Republic, Bermuda (in the Caribbean), USA (in North America), and Colombia, Peru, Venezuela (in South America) have had some sort of 'civil rights movement' that has not been the case in many other countries in the region.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 01:21:11 PM by Toussaint »
...l'arbre de la liberte des noirs.

 

1]; } ?>