Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?

[just cool]

Let me put it in a nutshell.

When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)

Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.

Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better. 

VB

Where you got that crock from!! indians in trinidad didn't like football!! far more,i believe indian ppl because of the klanish nature of their culture swayed their intrest in football track and field hockey and netball ect.

 their secluded environment totally excluded them from any sort of extra caricular activaties, except cricket of which they played amounst them selves, unless they were indians who lived off the reservation , like in POS, Diego , carenage ect. but if they from an all indian community, then most likely they would be playing cricket with only indians.

 i went to school with nuff indians, and them men was on accademics alone! during lunch break, resses or after school when black , whites , syrians , chinese, was sweating whether football , basketball or table tennis , them men was nowhere to be found, just one or two town indians might take ah sweat, but the majority where standoffish.

 it's like their parents scold them about sports and warned them to stay clear of it, and soon as that  buzzer went off for dissmisal , them men used to bolt through that school gate like someone was after them.

 no body never stop them from playing any type of sport, but they excluded themselves, the only indians i saw playing any sports with anyone was the half indians ( dougla) but them pure breed wasn't on no sports, just books. i'm not making this up bro.                                                  psoitive.

[behind-de-bridge]

Where you got that crock from!! indians in trinidad didn't like football!! far more,i believe indian ppl because of the klanish nature of their culture swayed their intrest in football track and field hockey and netball ect.

 their secluded environment totally excluded them from any sort of extra caricular activaties, except cricket of which they played amounst them selves, unless they were indians who lived off the reservation , like in POS, Diego , carenage ect. but if they from an all indian community, then most likely they would be playing cricket with only indians.

 i went to school with nuff indians, and them men was on accademics alone! during lunch break, resses or after school when black , whites , syrians , chinese, was sweating whether football , basketball or table tennis , them men was nowhere to be found, just one or two town indians might take ah sweat, but the majority where standoffish.

 it's like their parents scold them about sports and warned them to stay clear of it, and soon as that  buzzer went off for dissmisal , them men used to bolt through that school gate like someone was after them.

 no body never stop them from playing any type of sport, but they excluded themselves, the only indians i saw playing any sports with anyone was the half indians ( dougla) but them pure breed wasn't on no sports, just books. i'm not making this up bro.                                                  psoitive.
[/quote]

Like de man mash yuh corn JC  . Well we went to the same school, so I have some insight into where you coming from. Yuh also bringing back some sweet memories of the small goal sweat in the school yard.

BTW I have also never seen a black Paraguayian, let alone a black footballer from that country.

[kicker]

Why is this thread relevant?

What % of Argentina's population is black? Are there talented black Argentine football players who are being overlooked because of their skin colour? Despite all the talk of race and racism, is Argentina's black population (and more specifically population of talented black footballers) significant enough (in size) to make this a relevant conversation?

Not trying to be cynical- serious questions

[vb]

Jus Cool,

although u have a point. There is much more to it than just that solitary point.

This has been hashed b4, so it's too tedious to reiterate.

It's no secret that up until recently that non blacks have had a hard time at national training sessions. There was even some tension on the 1990 yoth WC team. Sherwood said this.

VB

[just cool]

Jus Cool,

although u have a point. There is much more to it than just that solitary point.

This has been hashed b4, so it's too tedious to reiterate.

It's no secret that up until recently that non blacks have had a hard time at national training sessions. There was even some tension on the 1990 yoth WC team. Sherwood said this.

VB

Bredder , there was ah time in trinidad and tobago, particularly trinidad where the majority of national players were not black. before corneal and teashera time, for that matter the 40ies and 50ies there was ah limited amount black players in T&T repping the national team.

 it was more so french creoles chinese and white dudes, back then, majority of the time ah black fella couldn't even afford ah washykong (dirt cheap brand of slave sneakers) let alone ah pair of tugs.

 back then yuh could only imagine kicking ball with ah club , unless someone influential saw yuh and believe yuh had the talent to produce, but more than likely yuh had to stay in yuh sector.

i used to listen to some old timers who played football in those days , men like potty lewis, dennis yip, alvin oliveara,and fred hackshaw just to name ah few.

those guys were discriminated against with the type of discrimination that would most likely hinder anyone from playing the sport ever again, and that did not stop them , instead they persevered and some of them went on to rep the country.

they opened door and made a way for the up and coming generation to follow. bro , i not saying indian are not talented or prejudice, all i'm saying is , the older heads were very discouraging when i came to sports, and they opted for academics instead.

 hey i know black parents who did the same with their kids, they pushed education on them, and admonished them to leave off sports and pick up books, the jews are masters of that, they discourage sports and encourage the arts, cultural expressions, business and academics on their children, that's why it's extremely difficult to find a jew , let alone a religious jew in any type of sports.

[just cool]

Where you got that crock from!! indians in trinidad didn't like football!! far more,i believe indian ppl because of the klanish nature of their culture swayed their intrest in football track and field hockey and netball ect.

 their secluded environment totally excluded them from any sort of extra caricular activaties, except cricket of which they played amounst them selves, unless they were indians who lived off the reservation , like in POS, Diego , carenage ect. but if they from an all indian community, then most likely they would be playing cricket with only indians.

 i went to school with nuff indians, and them men was on accademics alone! during lunch break, resses or after school when black , whites , syrians , chinese, was sweating whether football , basketball or table tennis , them men was nowhere to be found, just one or two town indians might take ah sweat, but the majority where standoffish.

 it's like their parents scold them about sports and warned them to stay clear of it, and soon as that  buzzer went off for dissmisal , them men used to bolt through that school gate like someone was after them.

 no body never stop them from playing any type of sport, but they excluded themselves, the only indians i saw playing any sports with anyone was the half indians ( dougla) but them pure breed wasn't on no sports, just books. i'm not making this up bro.                                                  psoitive.

Like de man mash yuh corn JC  . Well we went to the same school, so I have some insight into where you coming from. Yuh also bringing back some sweet memories of the small goal sweat in the school yard.

BTW I have also never seen a black Paraguayian, let alone a black footballer from that country.

[/quote]Yeh boy bridge, those were the days. we used to go home late almost every day, fellas school shirt used to be soacked until they had to take it off and play in their moreno until it dried in the sun, and even then it had fallas who had to ring out their under shirt with sweat, that was some serious sweating.

 yuh know how much ring ears and pot spoon i get for coming home late and dirty from sweating in the school yard ! i missed those days.

[giggsy11]

Jus Cool,

although u have a point. There is much more to it than just that solitary point.

This has been hashed b4, so it's too tedious to reiterate.

It's no secret that up until recently that non blacks have had a hard time at national training sessions. There was even some tension on the 1990 yoth WC team. Sherwood said this.

VB

Bredder , there was ah time in trinidad and tobago, particularly trinidad where the majority of national players were not black. before corneal and teashera time, for that matter the 40ies and 50ies there was ah limited amount black players in T&T repping the national team.

 it was more so french creoles chinese and white dudes, back then, majority of the time ah black fella couldn't even afford ah washykong (dirt cheap brand of slave sneakers) let alone ah pair of tugs.

 back then yuh could only imagine kicking ball with ah club , unless someone influential saw yuh and believe yuh had the talent to produce, but more than likely yuh had to stay in yuh sector.

i used to listen to some old timers who played football in those days , men like potty lewis, dennis yip, alvin oliveara,and fred hackshaw just to name ah few.

those guys were discriminated against with the type of discrimination that would most likely hinder anyone from playing the sport ever again, and that did not stop them , instead they persevered and some of them went on to rep the country.

they opened door and made a way for the up and coming generation to follow. bro , i not saying indian are not talented or prejudice, all i'm saying is , the older heads were very discouraging when i came to sports, and they opted for academics instead.

 hey i know black parents who did the same with their kids, they pushed education on them, and admonished them to leave off sports and pick up books, the jews are masters of that, they discourage sports and encourage the arts, cultural expressions, business and academics on their children, that's why it's extremely difficult to find a jew , let alone a religious jew in any type of sports.

"Washykong" blast from the past word dred!

[Bakes]

Let me put it in a nutshell.

When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)

Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.

Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better. 

VB

I doh want to get drawn into no discussion that might further open any racial wounds, but unless it was at the hands of the colonial masters Indians did not suffer any racism in TnT.  Not even under Eric Williams' PNM, when to hear some Indians tell it they were a second-class group in TnT.  Hard to reconcile such a spurious claim with the fact the Indians have always been an economic force in TnT, and if anything it was they who were in positions of power to deny opportunities to others who did not look like them or have a multi-syllabic last name. 

If you really want to get into it, for ever one instance of denied football/boxing opportunity I can provide you an example of a slight suffered (some of it personally) at the hands of Indians in other facets of society.  Too often we are quick to toss around terms without bothering to take a moment of care to confirm the propriety of the application.

In closing...you could hold out an open mind all you want that there are other mitigating factors that result in the underrepresentation of Afro-Argentinos in the national squad, but that would only serve as an indictment of your own lack of research...because it is well documented that Afro-Argentinos are denied opportunities and marginalized in every sector of Argentinian society, therefore a reasonable conclusion would be that it's the same factors keeping them from footballing opportunities as well.  Indians suffer nothing of the sort in TnT, there is no entrenched, systematic policy of discounting and marginalizing Indians in TnT.  In fact, in looking at the footballing world, Indians are underrepresented on every level... so TnT being a microcosm of that footballing world, it makes absolute sense that their numbers would be similary depressed in Trinidad.  Of course it could be racism football period that's keeping Indian footballers down around the world, right?

[Agent Jack Bauer]

A number of people of Spanish descent call dem Argentine folks racist.......so yuh kno wat dat mean if d pot calling d kettle black.........it must be rell black

[Bakes]

Why is this thread relevant?

What % of Argentina's population is black? Are there talented black Argentine football players who are being overlooked because of their skin colour? Despite all the talk of race and racism, is Argentina's black population (and more specifically population of talented black footballers) significant enough (in size) to make this a relevant conversation?

Not trying to be cynical- serious questions

Kicker if you do any sort of research...ever cursory on the black experience in Argentina you'll likely have answers to your questions.  Argentina has had more or less the same sized African populations of it's neighbors but several factors contributed to the systemic decline of the population... including the forced conscription of blacks to fight against Paraguay at the end of the 19th century, to mandatory quarantine of blacks within the areas heaviest hit by yellow fever near the start of the 20th century.  Then you add less tangible social factors like racism and what's left is a society where today there isn't even a separate designation on official census forms for Argentinians of African descent.  It's like they don't exist.  So yeah, of course if you reduce the pool of blacks in the population you reduce the pool of black footballers, which leaves a slim pool of footballers talented enough to push for a spot on the national squad.  Whether those one or two ever materialized and what was their experience with selection is the stuff of conjecture.

For those interested here are just a couple more links:

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/argentina.html
http://baires.elsur.org/archives/in-search-of-the-mythical-afro-argentine/
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/27/MNGH0FU3UG1.DTL

A number of people of Spanish descent call dem Argentine folks racist.......so yuh kno wat dat mean if d pot calling d kettle black.........it must be rell black

Never thought I'd see the day when I wish Otorongo was online, lol

[vb]

Let me put it in a nutshell.

When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)

Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.

Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better. 

VB

I doh want to get drawn into no discussion that might further open any racial wounds, but unless it was at the hands of the colonial masters Indians did not suffer any racism in TnT.  Not even under Eric Williams' PNM, when to hear some Indians tell it they were a second-class group in TnT.  Hard to reconcile such a spurious claim with the fact the Indians have always been an economic force in TnT, and if anything it was they who were in positions of power to deny opportunities to others who did not look like them or have a multi-syllabic last name. 

If you really want to get into it, for ever one instance of denied football/boxing opportunity I can provide you an example of a slight suffered (some of it personally) at the hands of Indians in other facets of society.  Too often we are quick to toss around terms without bothering to take a moment of care to confirm the propriety of the application.

In closing...you could hold out an open mind all you want that there are other mitigating factors that result in the underrepresentation of Afro-Argentinos in the national squad, but that would only serve as an indictment of your own lack of research...because it is well documented that Afro-Argentinos are denied opportunities and marginalized in every sector of Argentinian society, therefore a reasonable conclusion would be that it's the same factors keeping them from footballing opportunities as well.  Indians suffer nothing of the sort in TnT, there is no entrenched, systematic policy of discounting and marginalizing Indians in TnT.  In fact, in looking at the footballing world, Indians are underrepresented on every level... so TnT being a microcosm of that footballing world, it makes absolute sense that their numbers would be similary depressed in Trinidad.  Of course it could be racism football period that's keeping Indian footballers down around the world, right?

It's ironic that you speak of a 'lack of research,' and then spout such nonsense.

I am not denying that there are ethnocentric (and racist Indians) in TT. However, that does not excuse any race being just as ignorant.

There has been rampant racism in politics and sport. The fact that Indians do well economically does not change that. They work hard. Look at Fiji and how they have prospered there despite open racism in Parliament and by the army, to the fact where the Australians had to invade the country and save them. Yet they continue to dominate the country economically.

I will openly tell you that if you gave Indians a chance to run cricket in TT, they might frigg it up due to racism. I say this only becz of the rubbish I hear the Indian cricket fans from the country speaking. (and I am Indian)

However, this does not give any race the right to make prejudiced decisions.

My grandfather was an Indian politician in TT, and I can give you numerous examples of bias. Do you know that political ridings were changed in such ways as to access the African populus for the PNM. How about the many small Islanders that were allowed into TT with just the clothes on their back and given land. You think the PNM didn't get votes for that. How many Indians you think could just run over from Guyana with nothing and get land.

When you talk about Indians being under represented at every level in other countries, this indicates your lack of research as to why? Again this has been hashed, just go to the search Engine on SWN and find it.

I have observed racism and a "just doh give a f..." attitude too many times in TT, to take you seriously. What I find bemusing is that when it's another race doing it, Indians and Africans alike, love to prim and howl. However, when its their own race doing it, they get dotish. Or believe that becz other races are bigotted, it's ok for them to act as such. Reverse discrimination is alive and kicking in TT. If you dont' know this, then they have done a good job of sweeping it under that carpet.

Just keep blaming the White man and Christoper Columbus for everybody problems.

VB

[Bakes]

It's ironic that you speak of a 'lack of research,' and then spout such nonsense.

I am not denying that there are ethnocentric (and racist Indians) in TT. However, that does not excuse any race being just as ignorant.

There has been rampant racism in politics and sport. The fact that Indians do well economically does not change that. They work hard.

Yes that must be it... is only hard work right?  So by implications, other groups such as blacks don't work hard hence they're not as successful, right?

I don't suppose the insularity of indo-Trini society (to a large extent) has anything to do with that?

Look at Fiji and how they have prospered there despite open racism in Parliament and by the army, to the fact where the Australians had to invade the country and save them. Yet they continue to dominate the country economically.

Have indo-Fijians nearly the same degree of cohesiveness as a group, socio-politico-and economic power as in TnT?

Let me know when you find the answer so I could refute the rest of this silly-ass comparison to Fiji.

I will openly tell you that if you gave Indians a chance to run cricket in TT, they might frigg it up due to racism. I say this only becz of the rubbish I hear the Indian cricket fans from the country speaking. (and I am Indian)

However, this does not give any race the right to make prejudiced decisions.

Nobody said anything about any race having a right.  The issue, since you're being obtuse...is that you clearly don't know the difference between prejudice and racism.

My grandfather was an Indian politician in TT, and I can give you numerous examples of bias. Do you know that political ridings were changed in such ways as to access the African populus for the PNM. How about the many small Islanders that were allowed into TT with just the clothes on their back and given land. You think the PNM didn't get votes for that. How many Indians you think could just run over from Guyana with nothing and get land.

I dunno nutten about 'political ridings', but feel free to expound.  I personally knew of a couple Indian PNM-ites... and I not talking about a token one or two, but high-ranking members of the party.  Not just men like Kamal, but also lesser know, but influential men like Hardeo Hardath.  So tell me again about what yuh grandfather had tuh say about racism in the PNM.

As for all this talk about small-islanders coming wid clothes on they back and all this nonsense... bring yuh proof of denied opportunities to Indians and then we can talk.

When you talk about Indians being under represented at every level in other countries, this indicates your lack of research as to why? Again this has been hashed, just go to the search Engine on SWN and find it.

I doh have to research shit fella... I been on this site long enough... and longer still before I was active to see the several discussions about why there aren't more indian footballers in TnT.  As a matter of fact if YOU go do the research you would see that I was one of the main people arguing against the nonsense genetics talk that men was spouting in dem.

However none of this addresses the central fallacy in your position that it is racism... or even prejudice that is keeping Indo-Trini ballers back.  When you can show the same thing happening around the world, then you might have an argument that it's NOT the same global factors at play in TnT.  Of course Indo-Trini ballers could just be that more special than their other bredrins in the diaspora right?  Other factors conspire to keep Indian ballers down around the world... but is only racism dat is de hurdle in Trinidad.  But you talk about knowing better than to take me seriously, lol

I have observed racism and a "just doh give a f..." attitude too many times in TT, to take you seriously. What I find bemusing is that when it's another race doing it, Indians and Africans alike, love to prim and howl. However, when its their own race doing it, they get dotish. Or believe that becz other races are bigotted, it's ok for them to act as such. Reverse discrimination is alive and kicking in TT. If you dont' know this, then they have done a good job of sweeping it under that carpet.

Just keep blaming the White man and Christoper Columbus for everybody problems.

VB

I see yuh boil down from de 'racism' talk and now talking about "bigotted" and "discrimination", and "prejudice".  The very fact that you're in here using these terms interchangeably tells me all I need to know about you and where you coming from with this shit talk.

[Filho]

VB Name one Indian could the team allyah like thing yes

really dumb question.

Real dumb you name one right now that could the side

probably the same thing a racist Argentine would say about Afro-Argentines if he was on this message board. bet it would sound dumb then.

ok..why do you think there aren't any good enough to make the side?

[Toussaint]

Let me put it in a nutshell.

When you deny someone an opportunity based on their race and go out of your way to favour another, it's racism, plain and simple. And dont' confuse that with 'affirmative action." :-)

Regarding the Africans in Argentina, I am well aware that there could be mitigating factors and have an open mind to such, as stated earlier. I made the original comment to show how silly it would be to make it about a particular race. Playing Devil's advocate if you will.

Tell those Indians in TT who were spited in football and boxing that they weren't victims of racism. Tell them it was just 'prejudice.' It might make them feel better. 

VB

I doh want to get drawn into no discussion that might further open any racial wounds, but unless it was at the hands of the colonial masters Indians did not suffer any racism in TnT.  Not even under Eric Williams' PNM, when to hear some Indians tell it they were a second-class group in TnT.  Hard to reconcile such a spurious claim with the fact the Indians have always been an economic force in TnT, and if anything it was they who were in positions of power to deny opportunities to others who did not look like them or have a multi-syllabic last name. 

If you really want to get into it, for ever one instance of denied football/boxing opportunity I can provide you an example of a slight suffered (some of it personally) at the hands of Indians in other facets of society.  Too often we are quick to toss around terms without bothering to take a moment of care to confirm the propriety of the application.

In closing...you could hold out an open mind all you want that there are other mitigating factors that result in the underrepresentation of Afro-Argentinos in the national squad, but that would only serve as an indictment of your own lack of research...because it is well documented that Afro-Argentinos are denied opportunities and marginalized in every sector of Argentinian society, therefore a reasonable conclusion would be that it's the same factors keeping them from footballing opportunities as well.  Indians suffer nothing of the sort in TnT, there is no entrenched, systematic policy of discounting and marginalizing Indians in TnT.  In fact, in looking at the footballing world, Indians are underrepresented on every level... so TnT being a microcosm of that footballing world, it makes absolute sense that their numbers would be similary depressed in Trinidad.  Of course it could be racism football period that's keeping Indian footballers down around the world, right?

There has been rampant racism in politics and sport. The fact that Indians do well economically does not change that. They work hard. Look at Fiji and how they have prospered there despite open racism in Parliament and by the army, to the fact where the Australians had to invade the country and save them. Yet they continue to dominate the country economically.VB

VB, you may need to reword those statements to make yourself clear. Because, they truely sound racist and I am not sure that's the point you're trying to make.

There are hundreds of millions of poor Indians in India itself. Socio-political factors are more likely the reason why Indians (and most foreigners like Lebanese, Syrians, and Moroccans) prospere in post-colonial societies, not racial superiority.

[Filho]

Filho,  I'm not sure how from one little question about whether Indians have suffered disproportionately from the effects of racism you derived this "but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society."  I'm really not sure what 'aligning' I did.  Being discriminated against in football by no means is tantamount to disproportionate prejudice in every regard.  This is akin to saying that whites in America have suffered disproportionately because we don't see more white Americans in the NBA.  There is no way whites in that regard belong in any conversation about 'racism' in America.

Similarly I'm curious as to how the experiences of Indians in TnT can be compared to that of blacks in Argentina.

breds..my post was actually saying the indo-trini experience is NOT anything like the afro-Argentine experience in most walks of life.  and you actually got it with the NBA reference. I was saying that even if a certain people face little to no discrimination in most walks of life, they may still be, rightly or wrongly, perceived as less capable in some areas of society (such as whites in basketball or track&field sprints). and yes..i am simplifying for the sake of argument on a message board. My point is, you don't have to suffer rampant prejudice to be marginalized at something, nor does facing rampant prejudice mean your marginalized in all aspects of society. You berate people for not doing research, but with all your research, your thoughts on afro-Argentine treatment in football is in the end just assumption. where in all of your research does it actually prove that Argentine coaches in general don't think blacks make great footballers today? i understand how you draw your conclusion, but you're extrapolating and i'd rather know more about the afro-argentine experience in football. for now, all i take away from what i've read and seen is that the afro-argentine population is relatively small and marginalized in most aspects of society...whether that means that afro-Argentines who want to play ball are actually treated different from the non-whites is not actually clear

[Bakes]

Filho,  I'm not sure how from one little question about whether Indians have suffered disproportionately from the effects of racism you derived this "but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society."  I'm really not sure what 'aligning' I did.  Being discriminated against in football by no means is tantamount to disproportionate prejudice in every regard.  This is akin to saying that whites in America have suffered disproportionately because we don't see more white Americans in the NBA.  There is no way whites in that regard belong in any conversation about 'racism' in America.

Similarly I'm curious as to how the experiences of Indians in TnT can be compared to that of blacks in Argentina.

breds..my post was actually saying the indo-trini experience is NOT anything like the afro-Argentine experience in most walks of life.  and you actually got it with the NBA reference. I was saying that even if a certain people face little to no discrimination in most walks of life, they may still be, rightly or wrongly, perceived as less capable in some areas of society (such as whites in basketball or track&field sprints). and yes..i am simplifying for the sake of argument on a message board. My point is, you don't have to suffer rampant prejudice to be marginalized at something, nor does facing rampant prejudice mean your marginalized in all aspects of society. You berate people for not doing research, but with all your research, your thoughts on afro-Argentine treatment in football is in the end just assumption. where in all of your research does it actually prove that Argentine coaches in general don't think blacks make great footballers today? i understand how you draw your conclusion, but you're extrapolating and i'd rather know more about the afro-argentine experience in football. for now, all i take away from what i've read and seen is that the afro-argentine population is relatively small and marginalized in most aspects of society...whether that means that afro-Argentines who want to play ball are actually treated different from the non-whites is not actually clear

You've clarified your own position, but perhaps you would have done well enough by not confusing any of my statements in drawing your conclusions:

"but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society."

What I gather from this is that you seem to interpret my position as saying..."Indians have done well in some pockets of society (economically), therefore it cannot be true that they have suffered discrimination or marginalization or prejudice".  In fact I never said any such thing nor did I ever imply such a thing, which is why I said I don't know how you could have derived that from my comments.  In your comment above you talk about rampant prejudice and marginalization... but if you go back to the post I made which you referenced, I was talking specifically about racism. I've been working under the assumption that folks recognize that there is a difference between racism and mere bias/prejudice/marginalization.  I'm beginning to suspect that I am wrong for assuming such.

Now all this other fool talk about how I does 'berate' people for not doing research... I berated no one, I simply pointed out what seemed readily apparent to me, that vb was speaking from an uninfomed position, a situation that one doesn't need a PhD or thesis to rectfy as a simple internet search would yield the information.  So I hardly think that I was holding him to some unreasonable standard in that regard... and I hardly think that that constitutes 'berate' in any manner.

And yes, at the end of the day my thoughts on the dearth of Afro-Argentine footballers is just an assumption since no one has actually ever published any scholarship on the matter.  Nor should we expect anyone to publish anything, because officially Argentina has no people of African descent, and anyone appearing too 'dark' are assumed to be from elsewhere.  Can't expect an invisible people to show up in the consciousness of Argentina... let alone the national team.  And before you accuse me of making further assumptions you might want to follow some of the links I provided.

[Bakes]

VB, you may need to reword those statements to make yourself clear. Because, they truely sound racist and I am not sure that's the point you're trying to make.

There are hundreds of millions of poor Indians in India itself. Socio-political factors are more likely the reason why Indians (and most foreigners like Lebanese, Syrians, and Moroccans) prospere in post-colonial societies, not racial superiority.

Toussaint in all fairness to him I don't think he's saying they succeeded because they're superior in any regard... I interpreted as him offering evidence that even faced with official racism in Fijian society, they have still risen to become an economic force.

[Zeppo]

Why is this thread relevant?

What % of Argentina's population is black? Are there talented black Argentine football players who are being overlooked because of their skin colour? Despite all the talk of race and racism, is Argentina's black population (and more specifically population of talented black footballers) significant enough (in size) to make this a relevant conversation?

The main reason that you don't see blacks playing for Argentina is that there are almost none to choose from.

A few years back I spent over 2 weeks in Buenos Aires and I could count the total number of black people I saw on one hand. In fact, when I finally met one at a nightclub he turned out to be an American who played for the Boca Jrs basketball team.

Something else to keep in mind is that Argentina developed primarily as a cattle raising country, as opposed to an agricultural one. Huge parts of the country were made up of the Pampas where the herds grazed and were tended (this is still the case today). This didn't require the huge amount of slave labor that was needed for plantation farming. So while Argentina did have a slave population it was nothing compared to Brazil's, for example.

[Quags]

Is just take one racist to end ah indian football career boommmmmmmmmm,it done .Foot swell up big like ah football and mammy eint want yah tha play with them men again ,iodex to expensive to buy every week lol .When men say Avery hit ah man ah blade it is sound cool eh ....but it not cool .Especially when Ppl moms extent of rehab is hot water and wonder of the world and love.


ARGENTINA KILL OUT ALL THEM BLACK PPL JED ,jc teach me that a few months ago, I love Diego eh ,but me never supporting that country again yah know jed .

PS ah indian couldn be accepted ,good on ah ten days back in the day ,how the hell he go fall een on a team properly ....mine u things changing now eh with this generation  ,but it go take a next good generation to ketch up.Cause the ppl with the football knowledge is blacks ,so them have to share it with Indians .

[fishs]

Ahmmm Bakes. Anand Ramlogan wın a lot of cases recently by provıng man get bypass for promotıon through nothıng to do wıth performance. all of the people he represented were Indıan Trınıs. Food for thought

[Bakes]

The main reason that you don't see blacks playing for Argentina is that there are almost none to choose from.

A few years back I spent over 2 weeks in Buenos Aires and I could count the total number of black people I saw on one hand. In fact, when I finally met one at a nightclub he turned out to be an American who played for the Boca Jrs basketball team.

Something else to keep in mind is that Argentina developed primarily as a cattle raising country, as opposed to an agricultural one. Huge parts of the country were made up of the Pampas where the herds grazed and were tended (this is still the case today). This didn't require the huge amount of slave labor that was needed for plantation farming. So while Argentina did have a slave population it was nothing compared to Brazil's, for example.

No one had a slave population like Brazil... not even the US, so let's leave Brazil out of it.  Argentina's slave population compared favorably with some of her other neighbors though, Chile, Uruguay, Bolivia, Paraguay... so yes, it was more than just cattle ranching on the Pampas. 

There are some other reasons that were touched upon relating to why there aren't that many 'blacks' in Argentina today... and it isn't because they were never brought there.  Your other point is well-noted though (about not witnessing too many while there), so thanks for chiming in 

Ahmmm Bakes. Anand Ramlogan wın a lot of cases recently by provıng man get bypass for promotıon through nothıng to do wıth performance. all of the people he represented were Indıan Trınıs. Food for thought

Gawd Fishs...follow mih nuh.  I'm not saying that prejudice and discrimination doesn't affect Indo-Trinis, in fact I'm sure they do... but that's a different kettle of fish than racism itself.  I'm sure to those suffering the brunt, the nuances is small consolation, but that's no excuse for us to conflate them all into one.

I will grant you though that actual racism may be more of a reality in certain sectors of the civil service (police, army) than in others.  Even so, much of that is a more a manifestation of classism than racism, but I won't discount the latter in that regard.

[Quags]

Yah know what  ,since jack warner ,so in tight with the UNC .I demand he do something about the lack of involvement of this section of society with organized football ...eh why not. 

[just cool]

Is just take one racist to end ah indian football career boommmmmmmmmm,it done .Foot swell up big like ah football and mammy eint want yah tha play with them men again ,iodex to expensive to buy every week lol .When men say Avery hit ah man ah blade it is sound cool eh ....but it not cool .Especially when Ppl moms extent of rehab is hot water and wonder of the world.


ARGENTINA KILL OUT ALL THEM BLACK PPL JED ,jc teach me that a few months ago, I love Diego eh ,but me never supporting that country again yah know jed .

PS ah indian couldn be accepted ,good on ah ten days back in the day ,how the hell he go fall een on a team properly ....mine u things changing now eh with this generation  ,but it go take a next good generation to ketch up.Cause the ppl with the football knowledge is blacks ,so them have to share it with Indians .

Thanx for the compliment dread , BTW it never had projects ( dewd) in coroni, penal, and caripichima ?

[Bakes]

Yah know what  ,since jack warner ,so in tight with the UNC .I demand he do something about the lack of involvement of this section of society with organized football ...eh why not. 

I sure he could find one or two li'l hard foot fellas who could kick ball from Chaguanas...ent? 

[just cool]

Ahmmm Bakes. Anand Ramlogan wın a lot of cases recently by provıng man get bypass for promotıon through nothıng to do wıth performance. all of the people he represented were Indıan Trınıs. Food for thought

Yuh know sometimes i does do meh best to stay clear of this kinda ah discourse, but my life experience doesn't really allow it.

now i know it have quite ah few ethnicity's who are members on this message board, and i don't want to come accross as insensitive to any one group,  but i love to speak the truth and set the record straight even if it's against myself.

now fishes you is one of a few members who i does go on cool with, as a matter of fact i don't need to be fussing and fighting with folks in cyber space , it just don't make any kind of sense to me, but on this occasion i will have to challenge yuh on what you said.

 racism in T&T is alive and well and doing fine, he dwells mainly amongst the the highly cultural minded, and has many differant houses all over T&T.

when i lived in trinidad i worked in ah few places, most of them being amongst a predominantly indian demographic, and i must say that it was some of the most unpleasurable experiences apart from when i worked amongst spanish folk here in the US.

 it was antagonistic from day one , i had men and women ganged up on me asking me to quit for no other reason than " why yuh  have to come up here to work and we in this area don't have no wok, why yuh din get ah wok in tong weh yuh from " all that so they could bring in ah relative or ah friend to replace me.

 i've been called nigger by them when i worked in piarco for bwia , also @ coura thoracic hospital, every day i got dirty looks and stares like i was from another planet.

 ppl threatened me every day i went to work, especially up in caura, eventually i was transfered back to POS general, and if that wasn't bad enough, when i worked @ POS general it had two female clerks who wanted to get me fired for no forkin reason, one name rookmin, and the other sandra.

 when i worked in those places the indians stuck to them selves in ah group settings like it only have indian in T&T and no body else, i was so suprise to see ppl behave so hostile and unwelcoming.

now i'm not saying that all indians are like that, not @ all, the indians who were raised in the north , POS ,st james ,diego, the valley real cool and hip and don't have dem kinda weard hang ups,  ah guess what i'm saying is, the ones from rural trinidad real forkin loss in deh clandestine cultural confusion. and that mindset is what left ah lasting negative impression on me.

as far as indians being discriminated against, that's always ah possibility, but i don't think black ppl in trinidad have that kind of economic and political power to to destroy or hamper the progress of other ethnic groups, but i could be wrong !

i grew up amongst some real indian haters, particularly for country indians,( not town indians) and the vast majority were elders. i never understood that kind of animosity towards human being so i choose not to buy into that.

 a lot of the ppl from my generation saw it the same as me, we just wanted to live and let live, i hope one day all this horse sh!t would die with the older heads, BC the world to modern for that kind of backward thinking ! maybe one day. may god help us to defeat that devil vibes.                                       positive.




PS:    ah remember when i worked @ piarco, there was ah slogan on the drive inn theatre named kaydonna that showed only indian movies. the slogan was in big visable spray painted letters just as yuh entered st helena by the drive inn that said NO NIGGERS ALLOWED for all my years in  POS , i never ever saw anything to denegrate any other ethnic groups EVER !!!!!

also in the airport stalls there were a lot of racist messages calling black ppl lazy, monkey man, and all kinda negative BS, them country bookie indians really full ah hate oui dread. did sat maraj ever worked in the airport ?

[asylumseeker]

Jah know, this thread real real blossom since my last visit! 

palos, ah hadda add a borse name of a nex significant baller regarding Mexico. Ah know de discussion was moreso dealing with the state of play today, but this is a special baller. Plus, de past and de future are intertwined.

Special baller. He had his jersey number retired in 1982  It was unretired briefly in 2005 when his old club Tigres was participating in Copa Libertadores competition. Competition regulations required that uniforms had to be numbered consecutively from 1-25 so they went with it.

The player is Jeronimo Barbadillo (sometimes spelt with a 'G'). Won two league titles with Tigres. Went onto to play and coach at Udinese. Was successful there. Legendary player. Check him out.  He played for Peru with the same number. #7. Played with Cubillas.

[vb]

Bake N Shark,

u obviously in love with your opinions and don't really wish to know what else exists out there.

Let me summarise:

Indians in the PNM, yes I know them too. dey make dey money too - Token Coolies and they know it. Every race oriented party has them. How you think JOhn, Mark and others end up with Panday? I give Manning credit in that he has widened the tokenism as much as he could, to the point where he get buff by party members.

The problem in Fiji has been WELL documented. Yes, the Indians in Fiji have far greater cohesiveness and social economic sway than those in TT. Have you ever been to Fiji. Have you seen how they live? I have.

However, due to their ethnocentric nature, they are loathed by local Fijians, to the point where twice they've had an Indian PM removed forcibly. They then banned Indians from Taking part in democratic elections and running for office. They UN had to step in and as said earlier, the Australians had to literally invade the country a few years ago and save the (Indian) PM.

If for decades your race gets negatively treated in a particular endeavour, it's normal that you would get discouraged. Look at Graeme Rodriguez, he said that in later years, he wondered why he was playing football competitively, when ppl would be making comments about his colour and race at the sidelines and nobody at national training would look at him speak to him or pass him a ball.

Look at Kelvin Ramnath a NY Golden Gloves Champ and undefeated in TT, tell him NOVICES were getting picked before him to represent TT and it's not about race.

Just Cool, sorry to hear about your experiences. I always feel like I need to apologise for such Indians. Some of it is bitterness towards the way the PNM rigg elections towards them back in the days (they found a couple hundred votes for my Grandfather after an election under a bridge, had those votes not been 'lost' we would have had a new Govt. :-)..........some of it is just pure nastiness and racism.

My cousin experienced the same thing from black officers when he tried to join the police force. Every day it was a "coolie dis and a coolie dat." and what coolie want to do in the Police. He eventually left the trainining academy. Perhaps he should've been stronger but easy for me to say.


Bake N Shark maybe somebody should explain to all of these ppl that it's 'prejudice' not racism.

VB

[Filho]

You've clarified your own position, but perhaps you would have done well enough by not confusing any of my statements in drawing your conclusions:

"but i am not sure I agree with bakes' aligining racism in society at large with opportunities in some poskects of society."

What I gather from this is that you seem to interpret my position as saying..."Indians have done well in some pockets of society (economically), therefore it cannot be true that they have suffered discrimination or marginalization or prejudice".  In fact I never said any such thing nor did I ever imply such a thing, which is why I said I don't know how you could have derived that from my comments.  In your comment above you talk about rampant prejudice and marginalization... but if you go back to the post I made which you referenced, I was talking specifically about racism. I've been working under the assumption that folks recognize that there is a difference between racism and mere bias/prejudice/marginalization.  I'm beginning to suspect that I am wrong for assuming such.

Now all this other fool talk about how I does 'berate' people for not doing research... I berated no one, I simply pointed out what seemed readily apparent to me, that vb was speaking from an uninfomed position, a situation that one doesn't need a PhD or thesis to rectfy as a simple internet search would yield the information.  So I hardly think that I was holding him to some unreasonable standard in that regard... and I hardly think that that constitutes 'berate' in any manner.

And yes, at the end of the day my thoughts on the dearth of Afro-Argentine footballers is just an assumption since no one has actually ever published any scholarship on the matter.  Nor should we expect anyone to publish anything, because officially Argentina has no people of African descent, and anyone appearing too 'dark' are assumed to be from elsewhere.  Can't expect an invisible people to show up in the consciousness of Argentina... let alone the national team.  And before you accuse me of making further assumptions you might want to follow some of the links I provided.

bakes..as you said, i've clarified my position. i used words like prejudice and not racism, cuz racism is a specific type of prejudice and I was trying to be a little more general. i made none of the assumptions about your statement you think i did. i was simply responding to your one liner to say, that even though indians in T&T and blacks in Argentina seem to have nothing in common, there can be certain instances where blacks in Argentina may be better off than Indians in T&T. My bad for trying to start it off with a statement that you believe wrongly summarized your intent...but i think what i've written since clears up my point.

didn't realize berate was sucha  bad word

also..afro-argentines are making strides in making their voices heard. I don't fully agree with most of your last paragraph. I know your style enough to assume maybe you were being a bit tongue in cheek. But I have faith the afro-Argentine voice will be heard more and more. By the way..if anyone watches Argentine football and look at the Boca Junior ball boys you will see that there is a black youth in the junior team. Can't be more than 12-13 years old. Their youth team work as ball boys and I've seen him on more than one occasion. Lewwe see if he makes it through the ranks. If he does, there will eventually be more and more. And despite the attempts by scholars, politicos, activists..etc...nothing like sport to open people's eyes and start discourse...

had a look at your links bakes. read much of it before and lots of other stuff. tired debating racism in Brazil and Argentina with my argie and brazuca friends. they're not your typical demographic, but my argie friends are very educated aboout blacks in Argentina but have met only one or two in their lifetime. I didn't see one in my one and only trip to Argentina. Will be back in November for a wedding..my son's godfather is Argentine. From my personal experience, people were really friendly..my take is that they generally love kids and people will stop you in the street to tell you how beautiful your kids are and talk to you. Most assumed I was Brazilian which I thought was funny and gels with the idea that Argentines don't believe there are any blacks there. But on two occasions, people assumed we were Argentine...maybe just being polite. But I do believe our generation are  a lot more educated on the topic and balck Argentines will cease to be a 'myth' soon  

[asylumseeker]

vb, i sense your heart is in the right place ... doh undermine your credibility by making rash statements ... ah think you're better than the Guyana comment above ... and i believe that you have a perspective rooted in a truth as understood through a lens that some on the forum are unaware of ... the problem comes when the narrative is told by blending perceived reality with actuality; merging facts with the insurgency of political and generational myths; adding hyperbole to known reality ... we all have to be responsible guardians of telling the story ...

as far as Fiji, the facts are not as convenient as your first assessment. As you likely know, Fiji's racial contours are similar in dimension and history to T&T's, but the root of the prosperity and the forces shaping the tensions are not sourced as you initially framed them. You made it seem like there is only one variable in the equation. In the posting immediately above this one, you handled it incompletely but better.

i am surprised you've dedicated so much attention to the direction the thread took, rather than to a comment like quagmire's dealing with brokering change and participation in sports ... i believe that a sea-change can be achieved in that arena

[asylumseeker]

Bakes, it's irresponsible to say Indians did not suffer any racism in Trinidad ... regardless of whether segments of Indian society wield(ed) economic power or leverage(d) race in awarding outcomes ...
and while the presence of Indians in the PNM may seem to be signficant, it still does not disrupt or controvert racism in Trinidad as pertains to Indians (i am pondering the 70s for some reason, looking forward)

similarly, vb ... you use the word 'token' too loosely ...