Ever wonder why they eh have any black or Afro-Argentine ballers?

[ribbit]

Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?

At least 10-12 provinces.

asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.

Since yuh bold meh name and ting, ah sure the answer is likely to disappoint you.

ah bold your name so that there was no confusion to whom the question was addressed, as the post i replied to was from gauchita.

if your answer is consistent with the form you have demonstrated thus far, it will not disappoint me, it will in fact confirm some things.

[asylumseeker]

Personally I think arguing this topic is a waste of time. Look we all know what happened in the past in Argentina (to be specific), let's just move on from it now. We can't change the past, we can only improve the future. Gauchita and his countrymen aren't responsible for the deeds of his ancestors nor am I for mine.

The raison d'être of the public discourse around afrodescendientes and invisibilidad ("their invisibility") is to improve the future, despite the uncomfortable past and present. It's not about changing the past. It's also not about culpability. It's about embracing collective responsibility today on all sides, despite the obvious reality that no one today partook in the sins or suffering of the fathers.

The truth is we "all" don't know what happened in Argentina. Beyond that, the discourse on afrodescendientes and invisibilidad extends throughout the Americas. Fortunately, you're not available to provide advice on the responsive treatments of holocausts.

[asylumseeker]

Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?

At least 10-12 provinces.

asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.

Since yuh bold meh name and ting, ah sure the answer is likely to disappoint you.

ah bold your name so that there was no confusion to whom the question was addressed, as the post i replied to was from gauchita.

if your answer is consistent with the form you have demonstrated thus far, it will not disappoint me, it will in fact confirm some things.

Unlike Gauchita, I don't view it as absolutely necessary to have been physically present in Argentina in order to comment ... nonetheless, I satisy that "requirement".  I could go there tomorrow and locate the elusive faces.

[Gauchita]

With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?

I will just say this and then focus on football.

Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.

I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.

[Gauchita]

Gauchita, how extensively have you travelled within Argentina?

At least 10-12 provinces.

asylumseeker, how extensively have you travelled within argentina? just for comparison sake.

Since yuh bold meh name and ting, ah sure the answer is likely to disappoint you.

ah bold your name so that there was no confusion to whom the question was addressed, as the post i replied to was from gauchita.

if your answer is consistent with the form you have demonstrated thus far, it will not disappoint me, it will in fact confirm some things.

Unlike Gauchita, I don't view it as absolutely necessary to have been physically present in Argentina in order to comment ... nonetheless, I satisy that "requirement".  I could go there tomorrow and locate the elusive faces.

I'm surprised you are misquoting me or misunderstanding me. This is what I said:

Not saying a person cannot have an opinion if they never visited Argentina BUT their views are limited if they never experienced what life in Argentina is like.

You are entitled to your opinion, even if you never visited Argentina.

N'uff said.

[asylumseeker]

With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?

I will just say this and then focus on football.

Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.

I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.

... and la brujita Verón looks like that guy. 

Mueve el balón ... estas dispuesta a perder en casa?

[Gauchita]

With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?

I will just say this and then focus on football.

Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.

I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.

... and la brujita Verón looks like that guy. 

And Veron is not considered Afro-Argentinian.

Mueve el balón ... estas dispuesta a perder en casa?

Que queres decir con que si estoy dispuesta a perder en "casa"? Decime, tenes un motivo ulterior y por eso insistias que responda a este tema?

[asylumseeker]

I was referring to this ...

...

I am not here to "defend" Argentina but I feel the need to state that a lot of you are talking with limited understanding and perhaps judging an entire nation about what other Argentinians and non-Argentinians did centuries ago. There is racism in Argentina just like there is racism in T&T and everywhere else.

No offense, I have no problem in exchanging views if any of you lived in the country for a long period of time, it is sort of senseless to try to explain this topic further and link it to culture, Argentinian's mindset mixed with history if the other person did not experience what is like to live there and their knowledge is limited to the internet or hearsay.

There was no malicious intent (or attempt) to mischaracterize what you meant.

[Gauchita]

I did not say in that paragraph that it is "absolutely necessary to have been physically present in Argentina in order to comment".  I take it personal because I did not say that and in another post I specifically said that I am NOT saying they cannot comment.

What I was trying to say is that it is hard to explain this topic further when the other person did not experience what life in Argentina is like because there is a cultural link strongly attached to the issue. I can only share in the best way I can and perhaps when people travel there one day and live there for a while they can see for themselves what I have been trying to explain.

[Gauchita]

asylumseeker, and what do you exactly mean in Spanish by "Move the ball... Are you willing to lose at home"? Not really a fan of riddles.

[asylumseeker]

With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?

I will just say this and then focus on football.

Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.

I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.

... and la brujita Verón looks like that guy. 

And Veron is not considered Afro-Argentinian.

Mueve el balón ... estas dispuesta a perder en casa?

Que queres decir con que si estoy dispuesta a perder en "casa"? Decime, tenes un motivo ulterior y por eso insistias que responda a este tema?

If you review the thread from start to end, you'll notice that I made no comment on the introduction of Verón's name until now ... which I did in jest.

The original mention of Verón surprised me, but if it serves no other purpose ... it underscores the present-day confusion between how ppl see themselves versus how others identify them. (This is a general comment, not Verón specific).

Race is broader than phenotype. How would the world respond if Obama had announced he was "white", rather than "black"? He's "perfectly" entitled to choose either, ent?

(rhetorical questions).

[asylumseeker]

I did not say in that paragraph that it is "absolutely necessary to have been physically present in Argentina in order to comment".  I take it personal because I did not say that and in another post I specifically said that I am NOT saying they cannot comment.

What I was trying to say is that it is hard to explain this topic further when the other person did not experience what life in Argentina is like because there is a cultural link strongly attached to the issue. I can only share in the best way I can and perhaps when people travel there one day and live there for a while they can see for themselves what I have been trying to explain.

[asylumseeker]

asylumseeker, and what do you exactly mean in Spanish by "Move the ball... Are you willing to lose at home"? Not really a fan of riddles.

Time to return to football ... ready to lose days before the World Cup?

[Gauchita]

With respect to contemporary Argentinian society, do you consider it problematic that most Argentines are unaware of a fundamental chapter in Argentina's history? Do you consider it an issue that blanqueamiento occurred and that today a collective "ignorance" exists regarding the policy?

I will just say this and then focus on football.

Of course it is problematic, our Afro-Argentinians brothers and sisters shouldn't have to explain where they are from, it is embarrassing to say the least that people would assume they are not Argentinians. Africa Vive and many other Afro-Argentinian organizations are going to the media and having meetings to create awareness of the fact that we do have blacks in Argentina despite the myth that we do not.

I believe blanqueamiento is probably one issue and the fact that people who are of mixed heritage are not considered Black in Argentina. In one of the videos someone linked earlier in the thread, there is an Uruguayan guy (with long hair) who will be considered Black in Argentina. Now, the other guy who is the president of one of these organizations will not be considered Afro-Argentinian, and he himself admits that when people talk to him they tell him "sorry Federico but you are not black". This is the perception.

... and la brujita Verón looks like that guy. 

And Veron is not considered Afro-Argentinian.

Mueve el balón ... estas dispuesta a perder en casa?

Que queres decir con que si estoy dispuesta a perder en "casa"? Decime, tenes un motivo ulterior y por eso insistias que responda a este tema?

If you review the thread from start to end, you'll notice that I made no comment on the introduction of Verón's name until now ... which I did in jest.

The original mention of Verón surprised me, but if it serves no other purpose ... it underscores the present-day confusion between how ppl see themselves versus how others identify them. (This is a general comment, not Verón specific).

Race is broader than phenotype. How would the world respond if Obama had announced he was "white", rather than "black"? He's "perfectly" entitled to choose either, ent?

(rhetorical questions).

First, I would like to apologize if I misunderstood your Spanish statement. I was still caught in this topic and I did not realize that you was talking about something completely different, the game between Argentina and T&T. Sorry.

[asylumseeker]

... 

[Trini _2026]

nice link

http://kwekudee-tripdownmemorylane.blogspot.ca/2012/10/african-descendants-in-argentina-afro.html

[Pointman]

check out some of Fidal Nadal's videos. He is unapologetically Black in the face of so much Argentine racism. His mom is white too.

[Zeppo]

So when Argentinians say "there are no blacks in Argentina" they do not mean it out of racism, they say it out of naivety and ignorance because a lot of them never met an Afro-Argentinian before OR they surely met one but they are so mixed that you can no longer tell.

Or perhaps they are even Afro-Argentines themselves, yet deny the fact?

From the article that was posted above:

"People for years have accepted the idea that there are no black people in Argentina," Miriam Gomes, a professor of literature at the University of Buenos Aires, who is part black herself, told the Post.

"Even the schoolbooks here accepted this as a fact. But where did that leave me?"

She also explained that almost no one in Argentina with black blood in their veins will admit to it.

"Without a doubt, racial prejudice is great in this society, and people want to believe that they are white," she said. "Here, if someone has one drop of white blood, they call themselves white."

[Zeppo]

On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent?

According to the BBC's Tim Vickery, yes:

But there is still an African presence in Argentina's DNA. Hector Baley, for example, reserve goalkeeper in the 1978 World Cup, is an afro-descendent.

[Pointman]

On another note was the keeper Baley of African descent?

According to the BBC's Tim Vickery, yes:

But there is still an African presence in Argentina's DNA. Hector Baley, for example, reserve goalkeeper in the 1978 World Cup, is an afro-descendent.

definitely African blood flowing through those veins...

[Bakes]

definitely African blood flowing through those veins...

Looks white to me... especially since there are no black people in Argentina.

[Zeppo]

Just noticed him tonight playing for Sampdoria -- could Fernando Tissone actually be a black Argentine baller?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_Tissone

According to his Wiki entry and his personal webpage, Tissone (now playing for Malaga in Spain) has a maternal grandfather from Cape Verde. So that would seem to confirm my hypothesis that he is indeed an Afro-Argentine.

[Pointman]

definitely African blood flowing through those veins...

Looks white to me... especially since there are no black people in Argentina.

lol true dat

[vb]

definitely African blood flowing through those veins...

Looks white to me... especially since there are no black people in Argentina.

Probably Indian. The boat does go adrift sometimes.

[elan]

So I was speaking to an Argentine last nigh and he confirms that there are no black Argentine and if there are any, it is because or the native blood and not African blood.

He also quoted some stats for me. Apparently back in the day  when the US had 95% white Argentina had 99.9% white. So you see there never was any black people in Argentina, so why would there be any now.


I have never and will never, ever, ever support Argentina, never, ever.

[Pointman]

So I was speaking to an Argentine last nigh and he confirms that there are no black Argentine and if there are any, it is because or the native blood and not African blood.

He also quoted some stats for me. Apparently back in the day  when the US had 95% white Argentina had 99.9% white. So you see there never was any black people in Argentina, so why would there be any now.


I have never and will never, ever, ever support Argentina, never, ever.

Elan, what that means is he doesn't know his own history.

[elan]

So I was speaking to an Argentine last nigh and he confirms that there are no black Argentine and if there are any, it is because or the native blood and not African blood.

He also quoted some stats for me. Apparently back in the day  when the US had 95% white Argentina had 99.9% white. So you see there never was any black people in Argentina, so why would there be any now.


I have never and will never, ever, ever support Argentina, never, ever.

Elan, what that means is he doesn't know his own history.

From what I gathered, that's what he was taught and what he truly believes (or truly allow himself to believe) . I suspect that there is no reason for him to look into Argentina's real history.

Veron IS NOT black.

[asylumseeker]

So I was speaking to an Argentine last nigh and he confirms that there are no black Argentine and if there are any, it is because or the native blood and not African blood.

He also quoted some stats for me. Apparently back in the day  when the US had 95% white Argentina had 99.9% white. So you see there never was any black people in Argentina, so why would there be any now.


I have never and will never, ever, ever support Argentina, never, ever.

Did you direct him to this thread?

[Bakes]

I spoke to a pardna who visited with his fiancee from Spain.  He said he was well-received by the Argentinian people... but everybody insisted he had to be Brazilian, even before hearing him speak.

[Deeks]

I spoke to a pardna who visited with his fiancee from Spain.  He said he was well-received by the Argentinian people... but everybody insisted he had to be Brazilian, even before hearing him speak.

Where was he from?