Trinis head back home Thread.

[Dutty]

To piggyback on zulu comment...is real resistance returning trinis does get

Two semi personal experiences

My uncle is a vietnam vet...when he done wit sam army in the 70's he come home and use to fly them helicopters (procure equipment,train pilots etc) for the coast guard (back when the copters were all dark blue
unable to take,,what he referred to as "lack of discipline and pure assness" he buss it back to the states do  wukk wit boeing for donkey years......gorne back home 5 years ago to open ah B&B, de ministry of natl security rope him back een as a 'consultant'.....now he say "I reach de age where I go take de assness, dem doh study nuttn my dept does reccomend..I go take dey cheque"


Two friends gorne back home with decent degrees...both woefully underemployed for years,(one get fed up and gorne back) because they cyah get proper jobs in they field...when one get through..she get all kinda talk and resistance from colleagues
"yuh feel yuh still in de states or wha,relax yuhself"
"how yuh makin so much suggestions in de meetings, yuh tryin to make we look bad?"

dais jus 2 examples, one seasoned and one entry level, but I sure trini small enough to extrapolate that and find ppl returning gettin stonewalled right through
expats goin home should look to open they open business ,is lofty heights to think you could go home and make a significant difference imo

[WestCoast]

Dutty, not only what you mention in your post but then there is the day to day life that just is very time consuming.
last time we was home meh wife had to go in the Registrar of Births and Deaths and pappy yeow the thing take Long..........oh gaum.......and ah next things is gettings parts for cars...Up here I does go Canadian Tire an get fix up right away (Most times) but down there is order the part and wait.

But it sweet no arse to visit eh

[ON DE BLOCK]

bottom line is, trinis who are local can't handle the expats and their experience, I know some well qualified individuals who could walk into running the banking system in tt but they refuse to go home because of the resistance and lack of initiative, so when locals say stuff like were talking nonsense I just laugh because I go back and forth from tt to north america and I see the competition, jealousy and insecurity displayed.

[dcs]

T&T is a free market economy and citizens are free to exert their entrepreneurial energies in any legal industry. It is the role of Government to support these activities by providing adequate services such as security and education, infrastructure and a regulatory framework that allows T&T industry to be competitive.

But when you do invest a lot of money in a particular endeavor one day the government may ups and decide what you doing is immoral or negative and want to ban you TOMORROW.
They want to ban Casinos just so....same for foreign used cars....so how much money these investors stand to lose because of an unpredictable PM who might decide tomorrow gambling immoral.  And those two examples are irrelevant...is the strong tendency to unduly interfere in an ad hoc unpredictable manner that ANY investor may face worse yet if you fall on the wrong side or didn't curry favour. 
Look they gone and increase the price of premium gas to start the NEXT DAY.  How does that impact businesses that just get hit with that one time.  ALl this vikey vie ting can't be encouraging for people who contemplating shelling out serious money for some money making venture.

[assrancid]

T&T is a free market economy and citizens are free to exert their entrepreneurial energies in any legal industry. It is the role of Government to support these activities by providing adequate services such as security and education, infrastructure and a regulatory framework that allows T&T industry to be competitive.

But when you do invest a lot of money in a particular endeavor one day the government may ups and decide what you doing is immoral or negative and want to ban you TOMORROW.
They want to ban Casinos just so....same for foreign used cars....so how much money these investors stand to lose because of an unpredictable PM who might decide tomorrow gambling immoral.  And those two examples are irrelevant...is the strong tendency to unduly interfere in an ad hoc unpredictable manner that ANY investor may face worse yet if you fall on the wrong side or didn't curry favour. 
Look they gone and increase the price of premium gas to start the NEXT DAY.  How does that impact businesses that just get hit with that one time.  ALl this vikey vie ting can't be encouraging for people who contemplating shelling out serious money for some money making venture.

casino ban is a good thing.

[Jah Gol]

Anecdotal as it may be ,reading the comments in this thread I am somewhat surprised at the perspective of the foreign based. Overwhelmingly the feeling I get from you is that locals are reluctant to change or to adopt ideas to solve our problems. I won't try to discount your claim since I haven't had the opportunity to see from both sides of the fence and by and large you have offered real experiences as the foundations of your sentiment. I will only say that my admittedly limited experience is more positive.

If the culture of contentment and thereby inflexibility is to blame for our developmental morass, how significant is the role of government at all, if various social programmes and tools are disseminated to a unteachable people ? I recall a magazine article I read a few years ago in which Singaporean statesman and patriarch Lee Kuan Yew remarked that sound leadership and sound culture where the pillars of national development. By LKW's standards ,how would you rank T&T ?  

[ON DE BLOCK]

Anecdotal as it may be ,reading the comments in this thread I am somewhat surprised at the perspective of the foreign based. Overwhelmingly the feeling I get from you is that locals are reluctant to change or to adopt ideas to solve our problems. I won't try to discount your claim since I haven't had the opportunity to see from both sides of the fence and by and large you have offered real experiences as the foundations of your sentiment. I will only say that my admittedly limited experience is more positive.

If the culture of contentment and thereby inflexibility is to blame for our developmental morass, how significant is the role of government at all, if various social programmes and tools are disseminated to a unteachable people ? I recall a magazine article I read a few years ago in which Singaporean statesman and patriarch Lee Kuan Yew remarked that sound leadership and sound culture where the pillars of national development. By LKW's standards ,how would you rank T&T ?  

you may be one of the very few and I stress very few individuals who may welcome foreign based trinbagonians with open arms, but if they take your job away, you will see them in a different light, it is easy to condemn but talk to people like dutty and others like myself who has seen the live and direct treatment of expats who try to change tt for the better and help our brothers and sisters home, like a woman said on the radio before the ending of the last election, "we don't need change in trinidad, we not ready for it, neither do we want it".

[zuluwarrior]

DC yuh sayin the gov want to ban  casino gambling so what is the difference between that and playway .

[Jah Gol]

DC yuh sayin the gov want to ban  casino gambling so what is the difference between that and playway .

they say that they phasing out all the game too.

[zuluwarrior]

So dey phaising out all the ways for the poor man to make money and them thiefing millions ,that might cause the crime rate to increase, dont you think  so  ?

[Bakes]

my take on the situation is, if there is a mass exodus to trinidad, it will change for the better because our current people whos living there are unable to change the nation, expats have a better insight on how a well run country is supposed to be run and managed. Of course you will get the jealousy from the locals who have stayed but they aren't changing our nation for the better, because if they were, our country wouldn't be in the predictament it is in currently. By no means should grads locally not be able to get jobs but that is the government's fault for lack of diversification in the economy and the crime situation which drives away foreign investment which also creates domesic jobs.

This is the reason it is good that ex pats come back home and take over the situation so our nation could turn around and everyone will benefit.

Throughout the history of the Caribbean many returning citizens have made invaluable contributions to our development. Almost every leader in the Independence era gained experience outside of the Caribbean before returning. While I believe that T&T citizens abroad can and will continue that trend it is however, a faulty assertion that local Trinis today do not possess the expertise or 'insight' to create the necessary changes in public administration. In the areas of critical concern like transportation and national security we have developed research capability. The problem is in reform of our policy to make it evidence or research based so progress can be measured by objective analysis. Many foreign "consultants" who are hired regurgitate already existing information available locally.

Furthermore it is not the exclusive responsibility of Government to 'diversify' the economy. T&T is a free market economy and citizens are free to exert their entrepreneurial energies in any legal industry. It is the role of Government to support these activities by providing adequate services such as security and education, infrastructure and a regulatory framework that allows T&T industry to be competitive. Here is where government is failing badly.

I don't particularly share the perspective that locals don't possess the expertise or the 'insight' to lead the country into the new millenium.  I believe however that many locals suffer from a lack of perspective... what they have is all that they have ever had, few have been exposed on any significant level to "better"... so they settle for good enough... and in many cases, NOT good enough.

Additionally, many are averse to accepting the input and expertise of returning ex-pats, seeing such input as 'meddling'.  Understandably, many returning Trinis (because we's Trinis and love tuh gallery and gloat) bring with them patronizing attitudes towards the locals and their institutions... so the resistance is somewhat understandable, even if ultimately injurious.

[Bakes]

So dey phaising out all the ways for the poor man to make money and them thiefing millions ,that might cause the crime rate to increase, dont you think  so  ?

Lottery and gaming exists as a legitimate way to 'make money' only in the minds of the deluded (and often destitute) lot who are it's strongests adherents.  Odds mitigate against them actually winning, but that never stopped them from spending parts of they paycheck on lottery.

[rotatopoti3]

Many trinis have another problem today and that iz d way the foreigners are coming to our country and skinning it for everything they could grab out of it....while dey enjoy there overspending at movietowne, west mall etc and live in there subsidized 2000 US plus apts and bitch about how bad we system is...oh well isnt it the same in every other part of the world...

[pass(10trini)]

Many trinis have another problem today and that iz d way the foreigners are coming to our country and skinning it for everything they could grab out of it....while dey enjoy there overspending at movietowne, west mall etc and live in there subsidized 2000 US plus apts and bitch about how bad we system is...oh well isnt it the same in every other part of the world...

Isn't this a topic on returning trini's?

[assrancid]

Many trinis have another problem today and that iz d way the foreigners are coming to our country and skinning it for everything they could grab out of it....while dey enjoy there overspending at movietowne, west mall etc and live in there subsidized 2000 US plus apts and bitch about how bad we system is...oh well isnt it the same in every other part of the world...

these people you claim are skinning T&T...who are they and what evidence you have of this.

Please expound.

And who is charging over 2000US for apartments?  Locals or foreigners?

steups

[dcs]

Many trinis have another problem today and that iz d way the foreigners are coming to our country and skinning it for everything they could grab out of it....while dey enjoy there overspending at movietowne, west mall etc and live in there subsidized 2000 US plus apts and bitch about how bad we system is...oh well isnt it the same in every other part of the world...

these people you claim are skinning T&T...who are they and what evidence you have of this.

Please expound.

And who is charging over 2000US for apartments?  Locals or foreigners?

steups

evidence?  we in court? 
Walk around the place and the amount of different languages you hearing really surprising.  U cud check the classifieds for apartment prices for different areas as well.  I eh know about the skinning part....the most important thing is if there is any knowledge/skills transfer and I cud say there is some of that at least with what I have seen.  But is real $$ passing if you bringing in someone from outside to basically live here...they sure as hell not going and look for an apartment themselves and the pay will have to match living in a "high risk" country.  I don't think companies would necessarily bring them in if they could pay someone down here significantly less.  Then again u pay one fellah plenty to do something big and the rest will be watching...I eh know how the higher ups is think.

[100% Barataria]

my take on the situation is, if there is a mass exodus to trinidad, it will change for the better because our current people whos living there are unable to change the nation, expats have a better insight on how a well run country is supposed to be run and managed. Of course you will get the jealousy from the locals who have stayed but they aren't changing our nation for the better, because if they were, our country wouldn't be in the predictament it is in currently. By no means should grads locally not be able to get jobs but that is the government's fault for lack of diversification in the economy and the crime situation which drives away foreign investment which also creates domesic jobs.

This is the reason it is good that ex pats come back home and take over the situation so our nation could turn around and everyone will benefit.

Throughout the history of the Caribbean many returning citizens have made invaluable contributions to our development. Almost every leader in the Independence era gained experience outside of the Caribbean before returning. While I believe that T&T citizens abroad can and will continue that trend it is however, a faulty assertion that local Trinis today do not possess the expertise or 'insight' to create the necessary changes in public administration. In the areas of critical concern like transportation and national security we have developed research capability. The problem is in reform of our policy to make it evidence or research based so progress can be measured by objective analysis. Many foreign "consultants" who are hired regurgitate already existing information available locally.

Furthermore it is not the exclusive responsibility of Government to 'diversify' the economy. T&T is a free market economy and citizens are free to exert their entrepreneurial energies in any legal industry. It is the role of Government to support these activities by providing adequate services such as security and education, infrastructure and a regulatory framework that allows T&T industry to be competitive. Here is where government is failing badly.

I don't particularly share the perspective that locals don't possess the expertise or the 'insight' to lead the country into the new millenium.  I believe however that many locals suffer from a lack of perspective... what they have is all that they have ever had, few have been exposed on any significant level to "better"... so they settle for good enough... and in many cases, NOT good enough.

Additionally, many are averse to accepting the input and expertise of returning ex-pats, seeing such input as 'meddling'.  Understandably, many returning Trinis (because we's Trinis and love tuh gallery and gloat) bring with them patronizing attitudes towards the locals and their institutions... so the resistance is somewhat understandable, even if ultimately injurious.

Well said, this is a complex problem, but one in which all TT nationals (local or non-local) ought to come together to aid in national development; of course this can be challenging w/o local support (gov't or otherwise).

It can be done, I have had both -ve and +ve experiences wrt attempting to be part of local organizations in the name of development.  One very +ve one is w/UWI w/whom my company has just set up an exchange program that got kicked off this year, so it's definitely feasible.  I only hope we can bring/continue to bring inclusionary policies/practices to address our issues irrespective of race, socio/economic rung, political affiliation etc...

[Peong]

So dey phaising out all the perceived ways for the poor man to make money and them thiefing millions ,that might cause the crime rate to increase, dont you think  so  ?

I fixed it for you.
I really hope yuh doh go teachin anybody that gamblin is a way to make money.

[assrancid]

Many trinis have another problem today and that iz d way the foreigners are coming to our country and skinning it for everything they could grab out of it....while dey enjoy there overspending at movietowne, west mall etc and live in there subsidized 2000 US plus apts and bitch about how bad we system is...oh well isnt it the same in every other part of the world...

these people you claim are skinning T&T...who are they and what evidence you have of this.

Please expound.

And who is charging over 2000US for apartments?  Locals or foreigners?

steups

evidence?  we in court? 
Walk around the place and the amount of different languages you hearing really surprising.  U cud check the classifieds for apartment prices for different areas as well.  I eh know about the skinning part....the most important thing is if there is any knowledge/skills transfer and I cud say there is some of that at least with what I have seen.  But is real $$ passing if you bringing in someone from outside to basically live here...they sure as hell not going and look for an apartment themselves and the pay will have to match living in a "high risk" country.  I don't think companies would necessarily bring them in if they could pay someone down here significantly less.  Then again u pay one fellah plenty to do something big and the rest will be watching...I eh know how the higher ups is think.

fella answer y question or shut up.

real money passing, real work is being done.

The man said they skinning T&T..I asked for evidence, you come with shit talk about court.  steups.

Then you saying in another breath that the costs may be justified, and that there is info/knowldege passing..so in essence you are disagreeing with what rotato said....right?

[dcs]

Y u don't go do some research on your own instead of waiting for somebody else to bring u up to speed on something u clearly out of touch with.

where the "evidence"   

[Bakes]

evidence?  we in court? 
Walk around the place and the amount of different languages you hearing really surprising.  U cud check the classifieds for apartment prices for different areas as well.  I eh know about the skinning part....the most important thing is if there is any knowledge/skills transfer and I cud say there is some of that at least with what I have seen.  But is real $$ passing if you bringing in someone from outside to basically live here...they sure as hell not going and look for an apartment themselves and the pay will have to match living in a "high risk" country.  I don't think companies would necessarily bring them in if they could pay someone down here significantly less.  Then again u pay one fellah plenty to do something big and the rest will be watching...I eh know how the higher ups is think.

come nuh man Ass... de man put ah big  '' smiley in he post.  No need tuh be so "oppositional and insultive".

[kicker]

People follow opportunities- If opps increase in T&T, more people will explore them.  The flip side to that is that opportunities don't make themselves....go figure.

People bitch about things that annoy them- let's face it, there are alot of things in T&T's society that are annoying.  The same can be said about right here in the U.S.  Alot of the annoyances that foreign based ppl bitch about, the locals either complain about too...or just have learnt to accept (and that's a whole new conversation in itself).  Foreigners complain about alot of American institutions too, and Americans turn to them and say "if you don't like it, go back to where you're from".... One of the biggest immigration debates here in the U.S. is over foreigners taking jobs from  US locals....and one of the counter-arguments for diversity right here in the United States is additional perspective...so it's the same thing everywhere....this is nothing new, offensive, nor unique to any one society.

My take on T&T is that it's going through growing pains- and naturally so.  I personally think that the education system while rigorous, is outdated and I think the foreign influence in T&T is too focussed on pop culture, as opposed to foreign messages that can really help the locals to continually develop the society.  You don't absolutely need foreign based Trinis to offer different perspective in T&T...Maybe back in the day but this is 2008- we live in a global society where technology and exposure to foreign experiences is at our finger tips- often at the touch of a button.  Infrastructurally sure, there are huge gaps, but there's no real excuse for the gap in mindset.....In Trinidad locals can learn alot, and follow positive examples from other territories through dedicated research, practice and strategic implementation. 

Alot of the condescending foreign attitude to locals is through a false sense of entitlement, and alot of the local reaction is due to jealousy- why? Because like I said the foreign influence in T&T is too centered on pop culture which holds the frivilous material aspect of life up on a pedistal. 

For the most part though, I think people with good ideas and access to the right channels will be heard and respected regardless of where they were schooled.

[Bakes]

You don't absolutely need foreign based Trinis to offer different perspective in T&T...Maybe back in the day but this is 2008- we live in a global society where technology and exposure to foreign experiences is at our finger tips- often at the touch of a button.  Infrastructurally sure, there are huge gaps, but there's no real excuse for the gap in mindset.....In Trinidad locals can learn alot, and follow positive examples from other territories through dedicated research, practice and strategic implementation. 

Kicker... no matter how much technology is available to locals... no matter how much 'exposure' is available to them at their fingertips... there's a major difference between reading about efficiency in gov't/institutions and experiencing it first-hand, if you ask me.  You could read about going to a hospital and NOT having to spend ah fortnight on ah bench waiting to be seen, or you can experience it.  You can read about traffic laws being enforced... and you can experience it.  You can read about streamlined bureaucracy and you can experience it... etc. etc.

True perspective is only born of actual experience in my mind... which is why so many of us once we go back we're amazed by some of the things locals put up with.  It works both ways though, sometimes we forget how much simpler life in TnT can be as well.

[kicker]

You don't absolutely need foreign based Trinis to offer different perspective in T&T...Maybe back in the day but this is 2008- we live in a global society where technology and exposure to foreign experiences is at our finger tips- often at the touch of a button.  Infrastructurally sure, there are huge gaps, but there's no real excuse for the gap in mindset.....In Trinidad locals can learn alot, and follow positive examples from other territories through dedicated research, practice and strategic implementation. 

Kicker... no matter how much technology is available to locals... no matter how much 'exposure' is available to them at their fingertips... there's a major difference between reading about efficiency in gov't/institutions and experiencing it first-hand, if you ask me.  You could read about going to a hospital and NOT having to spend ah fortnight on ah bench waiting to be seen, or you can experience it.  You can read about traffic laws being enforced... and you can experience it.  You can read about streamlined bureaucracy and you can experience it... etc. etc.

True perspective is only born of actual experience in my mind... which is why so many of us once we go back we're amazed by some of the things locals put up with.  It works both ways though, sometimes we forget how much simpler life in TnT can be as well.

Can't fully disagree, but based on what you're saying a country like T&T will forever depend on direct foreign influence in a never ending game of "catch up" for certain improvements- not sure if it needs to be that way.

[Bakes]

Can't fully disagree, but based on what you're saying a country like T&T will forever depend on direct foreign influence in a never ending game of "catch up" for certain improvements- not sure if it needs to be that way.

Not at all.

The government just needs to improve it's processes.  One of the area I used to work in until recently as a consultant was in process improvement, particularly implementing CMMI practices for businesses.  It really doesn't take 'forever' for one to achieve efficiency... a couple of years, yes... forever, no.  This is 'foreign influence' yes, but  foreign or not we should be willing to adopt whatever best practices there are out there for government. 

But we can't just buy the idea... we need to buy into the idea.  The local situation can be just as efficient as some of the better foreign practices... locals are just as capable, but they either don't know how to, or don't want to... or "we like it so" won't allow them to.

[Touches]

From a man who see both side of the fence...

It is simply culture.

So you really think the locals here not bright enough, never been exposed, never work as a understudy to some expat or never went to school?

You also really think the returning residents so much brighter, exposed or better than their local counterparts?

Those in TT know what to do and how to fix the problems, it simply is they CHOOSE NOT TO.

Also those coming in from abroad, while good intentioned cannot change the culture of any corporation.

1) Coming in from abroad says nothing down here...is who yuh know and who know you.

2) Even if you are the CEO of a company...the board that hire you have an agenda...if you 4k it up you on yuh ass so essentially you are the fall guy or the puppet.

3) No way no how can you change the mentality of a public servant or menial worker....after a while you simply just accept that better cannot be done and the worse has to continue. Hence all the bright ideas will go out the window.

4) TT does not need a large skill set. In fact society pigeon holes most bright young people with ideas. You have to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer or accountant in TT nuttin else...all the rest is wuk that can be sub contracted easy.

5) All returning residents will eventually fall into line and be guided accordingly.

Listen nobody down here in it to change nuttin...it may sound sad but that is why the country is in the state it is in. Is See for yuhself, look to make yuh money if you in power and try to keep yuh family, friends and whoever else who making money for you happy.

We can fix any problem we have down here very easily. We don't do it because we can get away with it.