March 28, 2024, 04:34:53 AM

Poll

John D; Sando Tech.  Should they be let into the colleges league again?

Yes
20 (76.9%)
No
6 (23.1%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Author Topic: Should the Technical Schools be allowed into Secondary Schools football again?  (Read 5716 times)

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Offline Jahyouth

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I wonder if there is a correlation between the dismissal of the Technical Institues from secondary schools football and the reduction in the quality of our colleges league players as a conduit for National team selection?  It certainly seems so to me.

I remember the days when Sando Tech and John D.  (aka Jundy!) rule the roost.  Look at Sando tech team in the 80s?  The core of the Strike Squad was playing together there for years: Ross Russell; Marvin Faustin; Leonson Lewis; Russell Latapy; Hutson Charles...
« Last Edit: September 12, 2005, 10:42:35 AM by Tallman »

Offline Tallman

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I wonder if there is a correlation between the dismissal of the Technical Institues from secondary schools football and the reduction in the quality of our colleges league players as a conduit for National team selection?

Why it is dey get throw out de league?
The Conquering Lion of Judah shall break every chain.

Offline Jahyouth

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I remember people saying that they were dominating by building "All Star" teams of the  best players from all the schools combined. 

For example, Dwarica.  I remember Arnold only went to school (Malick) on days when he had games.  And then only at lunchtime.  He really wasn't on academics at all.  So he played in fourth form, fifth form, and repeated fifth form for a total of three years in the league.  If John D or Sano Tech were still in the league they would pull him and let him do a trade and play for another two years, just as if he had gotten into 6th form.  Most likely he would have ben joined by many other very talented players from across the country who were also not the strongest in academics.  That is how Sando tech built that bomb squad.  Remember Lattas went to Tranquill.

Offline Saltanfresh

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I am all for allowing the technical schools getting back into the SSFL fold. Infact, players who are not ready for the pro-league but gifted enough to become pro with some more grooming will benefit because of the ssfl becomes a finishing school for football(no pun intended.) The corelation between the demise of football talent in T&T and the removal of technical schools is a strong one. I will tell you that the Technical schools were removed in 1986, and that year I played for Presentation Sando and we were easy winners of south zone and the national SSFL since there was no Sando Tech or John D to play. Anyone who was following the SSFL thru the 80's and before would tell you that from 1986 the size of the players got smaller and the standard of play began to fall off (I know some say size have nothing to do with football, but in U17 and U19 it can.)
When the 6th form schools were having to field teams to compete against the technical schools they were more likely to keep a good player in school longer (repeating form 5 and 6,) than today. So the longer theses players remained in school playing competitive, well attended football, there game improved because they were part of an institutiion as opposed to hanging out on the block and only playing Sunday morning football, minor league, or if they lucky 2nd division.

I SAY BRING BACK THE TECHNICAL SCHOOLS NOW~!!!!!!!

truetrini

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Is there no age limit on players in the Sec school league?

If so I cannot see how Dwarika could play so long!

In fact I knew several youths playing fuh John D and they were all young!

I strongly suspect that there is an age limit.

I feel the real reason they were thrown out was becuase schools like Fatima and St. Mary's were getting buss ass..so they protested.  I even remember a move where those prestige schools (not only Fatima and St mary's) wanted to start their own league!

Offline Observer

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I am all for allowing the technical schools getting back into the SSFL fold. Infact, players who are not ready for the pro-league but gifted enough to become pro with some more grooming will benefit because of the ssfl becomes a finishing school for football(no pun intended.) The corelation between the demise of football talent in T&T and the removal of technical schools is a strong one. I will tell you that the Technical schools were removed in 1986, and that year I played for Presentation Sando and we were easy winners of south zone and the national SSFL since there was no Sando Tech or John D to play. Anyone who was following the SSFL thru the 80's and before would tell you that from 1986 the size of the players got smaller and the standard of play began to fall off (I know some say size have nothing to do with football, but in U17 and U19 it can.)
When the 6th form schools were having to field teams to compete against the technical schools they were more likely to keep a good player in school longer (repeating form 5 and 6,) than today. So the longer theses players remained in school playing competitive, well attended football, there game improved because they were part of an institutiion as opposed to hanging out on the block and only playing Sunday morning football, minor league, or if they lucky 2nd division.

I SAY BRING BACK THE TECHNICAL SCHOOLS NOW~!!!!!!!


Well boy Nigel if Presentation win they must have removed all schools from the League  ;D  ;D
Just having a laugh eh, doh take it to heart eh  ;)
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Offline Saltanfresh

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Just imagine dat, Pres win out SSFL and was 1st runner up in national intercol final behind Eldo. Yuh right, all the other teams did not play dat year........Good one! Good one Observer! ;D

Offline JDB

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I feel the real reason they were thrown out was becuase schools like Fatima and St. Mary's were getting buss ass..so they protested. 

The colleges were the schools that agitated the most but The technical schools did have a very unfair advantage, you can't deny that.
THE WARRIORS WILL NOT BE DENIED.

truetrini

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well kind ah balance tings out ent?  Coleges have an unfair advantage when it comes to academics, dey wanted it all, like d eold glory days...tings change breds.

Offline Savannah boy

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To join ah school jes to play football? Is dat necessary with no regards to academic achievement? Jes fuh we enjoyment? Wha go happen to dem boys when dey finish? Are you going to put food on de table of de ones dat doh make it big? Dey might as well be gladiators.

truetrini

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no where did I ever advocate children attending school simply to play ball.


However, if playing ball mgets him into a school, then, play ball fella!

Would you prefer that the boys stay away from school totally?

Fact is NOT all stiudents are created equally, that is why there is tracking in Trinidad and Tobago and exactly why there are tiers based on students achievements.

Junior Sec, Senior Comprehensives, Secondary schools and the so-called prestige schools.

You cant have your cake and eat it too!

So waht if they recruit and beat up on the Colleges?

Dont the college boys eventually beat them up in the game of lifea?

Let them at least win at something and achieve some measure of success....maybe that sport will transform their lives and at least give them some way to earn a living

Offline maxg

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I am the 1 vote no. I will try to express my reason later. It has to do with recreation, nuturing, development and particpation, rather than elitist.
Is the SSFL geared to the production of elite ballers or Tech. school geared towards that production, or providing an avenue to make a living...
 let the players who aspire to be footballers go to school to learn, and join a club to develop that skill..The school process should be geared towards developing the individual for society, now although sports, in this case football, is an important component of a healthy society, given our lack of professionalism, whether due to organization, support or funding... what happens to the baller that don't make it ? what have we developed for society.....Need to organize my thoughts some more, and then will give my personal opinion....Hold-up a little

Offline maxg

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Here is an article I found on the web...One of Many on this topic on this site
I guess what my concern is, Proper Parenting through Sport and society, as opposed to developing athletes or elite leagues. I know it is long but interesting read, may be best to print..

From
http://www.sportsparenting.org/csp/index.cfm
 
Title: Purpose of High School Sports Revisited
Author: Ramocki, Stephen P.

The intent and purpose of public high school interscholastic athletics is an important topic, having been debated and philosophized, with periodic apparent resolution, for probably a century in this country. However, there is evidence that it would behoove us to revisit the concept from time to time to ensure that the accepted model is in fact being successfully implemented. As with any successful organization, the ultimate responsibility lies within the administration and the policy-makers. However, the practical success of the policies obviously rests with the coaches. I would like to revisit several embryonic, crucial philosophies (with supporting knowledge) which, if implemented, result in successful athletic programs. They are: (1) The main function of high school athletics is to serve as an extension of the classroom, where students continue their individual developments within athletic domains. (2) Every player deserves to be treated fairly and humanely while receiving significant playing time in actual games. (3) Human beings mature at varying rates and their athletic potentials, especially in the early teens, remain essentially unknown. (4) The professional model of athletics, with emphasis basically upon winning, has perhaps only a limited place in public high school athletics.

In reference to number 1, the potential benefits of high school athletics have been clearly established as well as documented. As examples, the May 5, 1999 issue of Education Week reported that the more involved students were in athletics, the more confident they were of their academic abilities and/or the more engaged they were with their schools. Another study demonstrated fewer behavioral problems among athletes. Furthermore, athletes tend to have better attendance, higher academic achievement, and higher aspirations compared to non-participants. Research conducted by Maureen Weiss and colleagues at the University of Oregon demonstrates that self-esteem and perception of physical ability generated through athletics are predictive of achievement behavior, motivation, and positive affect (American Psychological Association, 1996). Sports lift esteem in young athletes (http://www.helping.apa.org/family/prepare/html). In more than 60 studies at the University of Oregon, results consistently demonstrate that self-esteem and perceptions of physical abilities are predictive of achievement, motivations, and positive feelings. Additionally, non-participants are 57% more likely to drop out of school, 49% more likely to use drugs, 37% more likely to be teen parents, 35% more likely to smoke cigarettes, and 27% more likely to have been arrested (http://www.nationalforum.com/whitlyaer10e3.html). A main thread contained in all these studies is that participation in athletics enhances the student's self-concept, which also leads to other desirable ends. Thus, a very fair conclusion is that high school athletics are in fact serving a valuable function when student athletes' self-concepts are in fact positively affected within the entire process.

Regarding number 2, the only way a student athlete's self-concept can be enhanced is through humane and equitable treatment by the coaching staff. Coaches must think of themselves as teachers first, setting aside egotistical notions that they are the masters of their courts and playing fields and will soon be receiving a call to coach at the collegiate level or higher. The problem of attracting qualified coaches aside, successful coaches must view their vocations as a calling - a calling to assist young athletes develop their potentials. Although the win-loss record is most tangible, it has little to do with the far more important goal (which is far less immediately tangible) of developing athletic potential and enhancing the athlete's self-concept. (J. Coakley - The Coaching Role in Modern Sport) (http://www2.tamucc.edu/~kinweb/5310/4sch.html). The only way to achieve this is to ensure that all the team's members receive ample playing time in actual game situations. This does not mean waiting until the score is lopsided one way or the other before granting some playing time. If the major goal of self-concept is to be achieved the coach must demonstrate faith in a player to perform in the critical situations as well. It is only within this philosophy that the proper character and confidence can be established. It is also the coach's responsibility to share these goals with the entire team and to ensure that everyone is on the same page in this regard. There will, of course, be spectators and (unfortunately) parents who will disagree with this philosophy, but that is precisely why the successful coach must be a teacher who has an understanding of the powerful psychological elements swarming in his/her midst. Amongst the conclusions that Mancini, Wuest, and Norton tersely stated in a 1998 study conducted at Ithaca College is simply that as a coach, "You have to remember that you have the power to make or break their day...and that's scary...that you have that power." For anyone with any knowledge of psychology, the realization of the profound role that a coach plays in this entire process cannot be overstated ("A systematic Perspective of Humanistic Behaviors in Coaching." 2001). In Sport in the Twenty-First Century, Lombardo, Caravella-Nadeau, Castagno, Mancini eds. Pearson Custom Publishing Boston.)

Given the less tangible main goal of developing students' characters, self-concepts, as well as athletic potentials (as contrasted to the more tangible goal of winning), how then is the successful coach to know that the job is being accomplished? Ron Belinko, who is the Athletic Coordinator for Baltimore County Public Schools in Towson, Maryland, has developed a simple and effective method to evaluate his coaches' performances. The appraisal process includes three major events: preparing and establishing performance expectations, training the coaches, and assessing the results of the performances ("Evaluation and Dismissal of Coaches," 2000 Conference Proceedings of the National Interscholastic Administrators' Association; San Diego). At the end of the season, all head coaches are evaluated by the athletic director. Assistant coaches are evaluated by a team comprised of the athletic director, along with the respective head coaches. These evaluations are filed in the athletic director's office, the school office, and the office of athletics. The overall ratings range from definite weaknesses displayed/standards are not being met, to good/standards are consistently exceeded as described in the various competencies. Each coach is then placed in one of three categories: satisfactory, meaning the coach should be retained; probationary, meaning that the coach will be recommended for reassignment if agreement can be reached in areas where improvements are needed; and unsatisfactory, meaning the coach will not be recommended for reassignment. This ensures that their public school system has a quality athletic program for all the reasons previously mentioned.

Regarding number 3, a good place to start is with a 1990n study conducted by the Sports Goods Manufacturers' Assocation, that surveyed 10,000 student-athletes. The study revealed that the number one reason girls and boys participate in high school sports is to have fun. Consistently, not having fun was the number one reason they dropped out of athletics. Winning was not viewed as important, being ranked #8 by boys and #12 by girls. Skill development was perceived to be a crucial aspect of fun, being considered more important than winning even among the best athletes. It is intuitively obvious that team members cannot have fun and continue to develop their skills unless they receive plenty of playing time in real game situations. Armed with the above knowledge, it makes as much sense to keep a player on the bench as it does not to let him/her take an exam because s/he is not yet up to par in a course. This is all an important part of the process of becoming and self-development, whether we are talking about the classroom or its extension onto the playing fields. Some tests are given in the domain of the classroom; others are given on the courts or fields; but their purposes are largely the same - to enable students to develop and improve their skills, knowledge, and self-esteems in those environments. Each and every team member should be given ample opportunity to engage in these competitive tests, regardless of the outcome of the games. (This is indisputable at the freshman and junior varsity levels. The next section will briefly discuss a possible shift in philosophy at the varsity level.)

Coaches should know something about human development. People mature, physically and mentally, at different rates. This obviously has been known for a long time. Many coaches think they can predict an athlete's potential in the early teens. They cannot without committing significant errors. Sure, they can see who has progressed to a more skillful level at that point in time; but many mistakes will be made if a coach concludes that the athlete's potential has been reached at that stage. This perspective is somewhat like giving a child a reading test to see if s/he can read. That does not measure potential; it measures achievement. Developers of intelligence and achievement tests have known this for a long time, and it is very analogous to the athletic scenario being addressed here. What one sees is not necessarily what one will get, unless it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy as a result of granting the initial higher achievers the brunt of the playing time. If that is done, naturally those with the head-start will shine. However, that shortsighted, winning-based strategy, will be a big loser in both the short and longer runs, considering what our athletic programs are supposed to be accomplishing. Many student-athletes who have been cast aside by coaches because of immaturity have gone on to be successful athletes, even in college and professional sports, once they matured. One of the classic cases was Michael Jordan, who was cut from his high school team. However, these will be in the distinct minority, as most early underachievers not given equitable, humanistic treatment, are liable to quit the team never to be heard from again. This totaly defeats the goal of high school athletics and we must take every measure to ensure it does not occur. (see Every Kid Can Win. 1975; Terry Orlick and Cal Botterill. Nelson-Hall, Chicago).

Turning attention to number 4, the accepted model of interscholastic sport had (supposedly) arrived some time ago as one of humanistic and empathetic concern for the participants. The coach must involve all the athletes in meaningful ways, with total awareness of how the players feel, subjectively, to play on the team and be led by him/her (Lombardo (1987). The Humanistic Coach. Charles C. Thomas; Springfield, Il pp.49,61). The professional model of coaching, which places winning as the top goal, has virtually no place in the twenty-first century. This model essentially places the coach's needs up front, although there is much rationalization that can somewhat conceal this underlying philosophy. The humanistic model of coaching, with its emphasis on the uniqueness of each participant in a process-oriented and athlete-centered manner, is the only acceptable one in today's high school athletic programs. According to the humanistic model, coaches must not assume that their goals are identical to those of the participants. Research has demonstrated that all too frequently there is conflict between the goals of the athletic leader and those of the performers. Insisting upon an evaluation process which favors the athlete's subjective experience, and rejecting the temptation to rely upon group standards and performances, coaches can ensure that the individual's subjective encounter with the sport is preserved which will become the basis for individual growth and development. Again, it simply is the athlete's imvolvement and positive regard, which should remain the primary concern of the humanistic coach. Humanistic coaches never forget what it was like to be an athlete, although they often have to forget the role models who preceded them. Too many coaches still coach their teams the way they were coached, relying upon their personal, very unscientific, experiences. Even coaches who come from degreed programs in physical education have received far too little training in the art of coaching. In this regard, the professional preparative institutions perhaps must share some of the blame (Lombardo, Bennett. "Humanistic Coaching: A Model for the New Century" and "Changing Sport:The Role of Professional Preparation Programs" (2001). In Sport in the Twenty-First Century; Lombardo, Caravella-Nadeau, Castagno, Mancini eds. Pearson Custom Publishing, Boston).

Is there, then, no room for the winning mentality in high school athletics? Yes, there is; but it has to be artfully crafted and carefully thought out with total regard to what has previously been discussed. Clearly, athletic competitions are not engaged in attempt to lose. Competition implies exactly that - namely to out-think and out-maneuver an opponent. However, it is the process and all the profound psychological and educational implications that surround the secondary school athletic arena that must simultaneously be considered with this athletic competition. There should be no debate that the humanistic model of coaching should be dominant in all secondary school sports, and up through the junior varsity levels the all too typical winning philosophies should be scrapped in favor of development of athletic potential. At the varsity level, it may be reasonable to place increased emphasis upon winning. If this is the case, it likely will mean that a good portion of the team is destined to put a lid upon its further development and self-efficacy, which results from significant engagement in meaningful contests. This is something, however, which should be carefully decided by the school system, and expressly communicated (along with appropriate rationale), to all those involved e.g. student athletes and parents. It is poor management to come to policy decisions through inaction, osmosis, or by sticking one's head in the sand and hoping that things coast along and everyone has reason to be happy. As discussed and strongly implied in much of the above, the domain of high school athletics plays profound roles in students' lives, and it must be attended with all the wisdom and concern given to academic and other extracurricular activities within the school system's purview.

I will end with a question. If we could accurately measure the overall effectiveness of our athletic programs, given the many profound and relatively intangible concepts involved, would we likely end up in the positive, neutral, or negative zone? If we objectively conclude that we are in the positive zone, then we still must ask if it is possible to make our programs better for all involved.

Stephen P. Ramocki is a Professor of Marketing at Rhode Island College. The above article was published in the January 2002 issue of the Rhode Island Interscholastic League Monthly Bulletin. 
 



truetrini

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Thanks Maxg, I using that article as a foundation fuh my arguement!

Offline maxg

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Sorry flex I realize after I should have just posted the links :P
All

http://www.sportsparenting.org/csp/csp_results.cfm

and that article

http://www.sportsparenting.org/csp/csp_read.cfm?id=107

Offline Savannah boy

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Excellent post maxg.  Some people feel school is a social club.  Ah man post John D rule de roost? How many John D players went on to play fuh de National Team? Sando Tech spoil it fuh all dem Tech School with their blatant recruiting of ah National Youth Squad.  After dat, all dem school get de boot fuh trying to turn de SSFL in to de SSYL where Y stands fuh Youth. There is no need fuh dat. Joe Public, Connection and all dem boys have youth squad now where man could get more serious football training and exposure rather than play in a league dat I would have to argue is mostly recreational. Funny how man does associate Latas wit Sando Tech, whereas everybody who know anything bout school football always knew he was a star...de lil fella with de big fro dat played fuh Tranquil who was shaking and baking everybody on de field. Latas didn't come from no Tech or no blasted John D...he groom heself vs de same schools allyuh trying to lick up here wit de post colonialistic rhetoric...dat have man believing dat is only dunce going Tech and Rich Smart Boy going College. Somehow de word College does bother some people. College is Saints and Fatima while Trinity and QRC on de fence these days. Did anyone even begin to think of who sponsors the SSFL and wha schools dey went too? Could that also have played a part in this decision to sideline John D and Sando Tech? De obsession wit Sando Tech is ah joke. Dey imported ah team...did'nt groom any team before or after their cameo while de SSFL had very strict guidelines about inter school transfers. A player may come to Saints if his school had no Sixth Form, if his school did not have the classes to fit the career path of de individual or if dey had good grades and just wanted to join a brother there...not to play football only.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2005, 01:33:24 AM by Savannah boy »

Offline dcs

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From
http://www.sportsparenting.org/csp/index.cfm
Title: Purpose of High School Sports Revisited
Author: Ramocki, Stephen P.

There should be no debate that the humanistic model of coaching should be dominant in all secondary school sports, and up through the junior varsity levels the all too typical winning philosophies should be scrapped in favor of development of athletic potential. At the varsity level, it may be reasonable to place increased emphasis upon winning. If this is the case, it likely will mean that a good portion of the team is destined to put a lid upon its further development and self-efficacy, which results from significant engagement in meaningful contests.


Good article maxg.  This kind of thought should definitely be put into the development of any national sports policy.

Based on what I read and specifically the quoted section, I would say an elitist system is inevitable at the highest level of competition within the school system.  You can't stifle competition at that age as it's a natural instinct and it being the best of the best is in fact what makes it so much fun for both the athletes and ALL the students of the respective schools. 

While reading I thought what was being presented was most appropriate for sports that you find the general school body involved in and senior inter-collegiate sport(varsity) should not be the only level available.  There are the different age group competitions, inter-class competitions and not to mention PE(which mightn't be serious enough in some schools).  The age group competitions are best suited for what is being said.  I think all the sporting activity and programs in a school OUTSIDE of the senior inter-col will determine how well a school is using sport to develop the general body and this in my opinion would be the domain which the article applies most to.

As to sending guys just to play football alone, something is wrong if that is all they are interested in.  You have to determine if the school system they are in is suited to them at all.  Secondary education is being re-examined because the strict academic approach we have traditionally adopted may not be adequately nurturing the broad spectrum of skills in our youth.  I've been hearing people bemoaning the lack of carpenters, plumbers and skilled people.  So if the technical schools are a legitimate arena for secondary education, how then can you exclude these guys from the inter-school sporting competitions?  If age limits were enforced back in the day we may still have a Sando Tech and John D playing.  Could there be a correlation between youths more inclined to skilled labour and sporting ability?  There are many checks and balances that have to be put into place and enforced to preserve the integrity of the system and managing that will be the biggest challenge.

Now all that is just for the schools alone.  Club sports have a huge role to play too because it only have so much hours in a school day.  I also not so sure the US looks to sporting clubs for the youth as much as we do.  Alot applies there as well.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2005, 07:19:15 AM by dcs »

Offline Observer

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Very interesting discussion indeed. However, let me say this SanDo tech and John D were not the only schools recruiting. All yes all the colleges recruit footballers. Naparima recruited, Presentation recruited, Fatima recruited. Let us not sit back and pretend that this did not go on. I know because I was recruited and then recruited again and asked to transfer schools. Though I agree with much of what Maxg says there is more to it, when we discuss the football aspects.
How many of the recruited players would not have been given an opportunity to be educated at one of the top schools (especially in the earlies)?
How many grab the chance and made something of themselves be it through aquiring a trade or what ever the school offered?
How many were then given an opportunity for further education in foreign University, one which they could never have afforded without football?
How many players from college got themselves a little name & were given jobs?

Caroni, Telco, Texaco, Trintoc, Neal & Massy gave many people jobs simply out of name & recognition. In Caroni, Trintoc and Texaco case they had football teams, so players got jobs & played football. I could probably give you 100 names of people who got there break in T&T life due to 'recognition in football." About two years ago I had this discussion with Bobby Sookram



I even agree with Savannah Boy that clubs could take over the elite (for lack of a better word) part. But club youth football does not have the profile of school football, nor are the connections for the future the same.

So though maxg is right there are other sides to the argument.

To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead
                                              Thomas Paine

Offline real madness

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Observer is correct about the recruiting.  Not only John D and Sando Tech recruited.  Prestige schools like Fatima, St. Mary's, QRC, Naparima, etc. recruited as well.  However recruiting is not limited to prestige and technical schools.  Other schools such as Malick, St. benedict's and Princes Town to name a few have recruited heavily in the past which has resulted in a lot of success. 
Recruiting is very important if a team want to be competitive because everyone is doing it.  One school (Presentation College-Sando) made a decision several years ago to not recruit and that decison resulted in their relegation to the senior division. Do you think the current powerhouses like St. Anthony's, Princes Town, Naparima will stop recruiting and end up like Pres?

Offline noname

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Real madness....what years you went to pres? Class of 1999/2001 here

Offline real madness

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1987-1994.

Offline maxg

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All valid points. However, what I am trying to say, is to much emphasis is being placed on Winning, and not fun of participating, or preparation for all things in life....In T&T I found many parents and fans, either termed individuals (relative kids, mind you) as 'Stars', 'Alrite', or 'shithong'....I myself being a Junior athlete constantly heard this from other parents and friends.. to the tune I was quite nervous when any of my family attended a Sports-meet I was participating in... I loved to run and it showed throughout my life..but I dreaded the competition in front of knowledgable people...I rarely lost, but hearing my fellow athlete being berated, was a major turnoff for me, and I am sure them..
I digress, The recruiting for the sole purpose of forming a winning team is a practice that I think is totally against the development of our Youth. A great part of development comes from losing and dealing with, and at the same time understanding that in your efforts, although you have not been successful, that time, does not make one a Loser in life or a 'shithong'.

Our society have regressed to demonstrating, each individual's good ability or talent, by not directing the individual to be the best they can be, more so by being better than your neighbour. To the point where, I see many of our people tries to demonstrate their better abilities, through 'putting down' others. NB. this 'putting down' has evolved from competitive test to all kinds of vicious attacks, violent and abusive, outside of the Sport Arena.

 Most adults, have grown into a world where they compete for posts,jobs, money and material values to prove their success, and these are more evident in small countries like ours. These are the individuals who run our leagues. Thus they in some cases transfer the attitudes they may think for the kid to learn at an eairlier age to be successful.

I think,emphasis should be placed on participation, and experiences of winning and losing, through proper coaching and guidance. As a consequence, I think it is defeating the purpose of teaching the youths, when you deny them the experiences of winning, when winning school teams are allowed to conduct unfair practices, all in the aim of winning. It is unfair to those overly strong teams, and the losers. The real losers then is all of our Youth.

Offline Observer

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MaxG then if I read you right, this has always been the case in T&T. After all you eh no spring chicken  ;D So this ent no recent thing. However, within the structure of competitive sport and all sport in general, the elements you suggest should be constantly re-enforced. Even professional sport this should be re-enforced. What you are describing as a negative I have witnessed in other countries so its not exclusive to T&T. We all know there can only be one winner and the objective of the game is to win, within the rules and sporting conduct. However, one cannot deny that elite sport is what drives the entire sporting machine. I mean where was golf as a viewing sport just some 10 years ago.
Now with Singh and Tiger it is not only a viewing sport but a sport spreading to masses.
The question is one of ethics in sport and I for one see nothing wrong with recruiting for ones school. What I will question is within the schools do the students maintain a certain academic standard, will they leave with a trade etc. We all know the stories of american Universities having graduated students that could not read past grade 6 level.

For me grass roots sport is all about facilities and yes all the things you mentioned. Children will play naturally if the facilities are made readily available and if not they make do anyway (ie street etc). Take Tobago as an example, for many years beaches were used as recreation areas and since we talking football, contributed to many players development in an indirect manner. Through an easily accessable, relitively safe playing environment. The House of Assembly then banned ball games on beaches, but did not provide an alternative facility. Now what?? No places for play etc leads to other activities of less health etc. Unlike lets say other countries where the beaches and other small playing areas are lit up at night and recreation sport are encouraged.
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Offline maxg

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All true Observer...on the point of it happening in other more developed countries as well... Yet as I stated, given our size, these attitudes have a earlier and more direct effect on our youths than in those larger Countries.
From since my time is a long time in truth, but not everything we did as a People was right, because we is T&T.

Probable detrimental outcomes we are witnessing today, as commented on in the 2nd half of your post.

The questions are what do we want for the future of our Country ? I don't think it should just be (being a lil facetious) "to produce the best football team in the World" etc... that has it's place, but not priority 1.

nb. It's not a matter if I am Wrong or Right, doesn't really matter, as long as we aware that there may be inappropiate decisions/goals that may inadvertently affect our Youths, and therefore our Future as a Country.

Obviously when I look at our crime situation, it involves many young people, as opposed to previous times, so obviously the older guidance has detriorated.

Offline Observer

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All true Observer...on the point of it happening in other more developed countries as well... Yet as I stated, given our size, these attitudes have a earlier and more direct effect on our youths than in those larger Countries.
From since my time is a long time in truth, but not everything we did as a People was right, because we is T&T.

Probable detrimental outcomes we are witnessing today, as commented on in the 2nd half of your post.

The questions are what do we want for the future of our Country ? I don't think it should just be (being a lil facetious) "to produce the best football team in the World" etc... that has it's place, but not priority 1.

nb. It's not a matter if I am Wrong or Right, doesn't really matter, as long as we aware that there may be inappropiate decisions/goals that may inadvertently affect our Youths, and therefore our Future as a Country.

Obviously when I look at our crime situation, it involves many young people, as opposed to previous times, so obviously the older guidance has detriorated.


Agreed it is not about right and wrong, this is a discussion. I for one believe that any program dealing with youth is educational. Most youngsters in music do not advance to the Conservatory Level, many in Dance do not make it to the top level, many in school graduate to be doctors etc However, if the program is done right these individuals will at least learn what it takes to succeed and they in term may contribute to other by setting an example. For me they are all paths towards something based on one's own talent and at the young age it is simply an avenue to give that talent some direction and put it on the right path. The more occupied a young mind the more likely tendency for that mind to eventually find it niche. It may not be in its original form but eventually a positive form none the less. After all the bright boy in my class in Form 1 don't always end up the brightest in Form 5, so it go in everything. Nuff shithound in the earlies turn out the eventual winners. Bill gates said be kind to nerds they may be your boss someday  ;D
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead
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Offline maxg

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Bear with the madness ah trying to express, I'm at work and Difficult to get all my ideas down on paper, the Borse keep disturbing  ;D.
 Hopefully we will discuss further in Hartford.
 :P

So the programs should be geared towards the youth, and his experiencing all aspects of the school setting.
 Now in his football life, the youth in Fatima(e.g.) try out for the U14 team and either he make or didn't, bench or played. It goes right up to his senior year.
IN A PERFECT WORLD (baller / Sports)
Scenario 1: He is a good(Gs)student, and star baller. He plays senior. Does some higher studies(Form 6) and gets a Scholarship(Sch).
   
2. He is a good student, and star baller. He plays senior.-> Form 6, no Scholarship, parents afford a Trip to UWI or Foreign University(PA).

3. He is a good student, star baller. He plays Senior. - Form 6. No Sch.No PA. No degree. Attends John D(JD), learns trade or technology. Plays Ball(PB).
4. Good student. Bad baller. ->Frm. 6. or not.Sch or not. PA or not. JD or not.
5: He is a good student, and avg baller. He plays senior. Does some higher studies(Form 6) no Sch. PA.
6. Gs, avg baller. He plays senior.-> Form 6, no Sch. No PA. JD. plays ball.
7. Gs, avg baller. He plays Senior. - Form 6. No Sch.No PA.JD. No ball.

8. Avg s, good baller. play Senior. No frm 6. Sch.
9. Avg s, good baller. play Senior. No frm 6. no Sch. PA
10. Avg s, good baller. play Senior. No frm 6. no Sch. no PA.JD.PB.
11. Avg s, good baller. play Senior. No frm 6. no Sch. no PA.JD.NB.

12. Avg s, avg. baller. play Senior. No frm 6. No Sch. PA.
13. Avg s, avg. baller. play Senior. No frm 6. No Sch. no PA. JD. play ball.Joins club or not.

14. Avg s, avg. baller. play Senior. No frm 6. No Sch. no PA. JD. no ball. Joins Club or not.

15. Bad s, good baller.PS. No Frm 6. No Sch. No PA. JD. PB. No tech. Joins club.
16. Bad s, avg. baller.No Senior, No frm 6. No Sch. No PA. no JD.Joins Club
17. Bad s, bad baller, Nothing. little Future


Yet he has also managed to maintain acceptable passing grades, indicating that he has learned something. He get to Form 5, or 6 and he is a a good student or not, but just miss making the team, only 20 out of 600 selected. Thus the majority left out of the ball.Not good enough to win a scholarship on his own, or he may, but he has reached his final year.

It is that majority I am concerned about. The options available to them. They could fall in anywhere in the spectrum of the society. Thus it depends on what tools we give them. If just push the Ball head, and they are impressionable at a younger age, we immediately reduce their choices and point out weakness, rather than guiding them to thier strengths.
 Not only that, we are taking space in the system with the talented people who have already have a chance,to make a living from ball and telling the majority fend for allyuh self.  I think we should be pushing a "best you can be head" and deal with the lower fallout. The football avenue is just another avenue, and thus the Youth should be made aware of the many avenues available, by encoraging weaker tendencies of allowing fewer individuals to get away with some breaks, that may not even pan out, we are sending a very unclear message to the greater.
That's why I would have gone without Yorke or Latapy.

Offline palos

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I think the question in the title of the thread is misleading.  No offence to the poster.

The question may very well be.....in this day and age, should we be concentrating on creating, developing and implementing a professional environment for our young footballers?

Because this is what is required to just be COMPETITIVE in TODAY's football.

That is...if you want to take football SERIOUSLY.

A school or college as it is currently set up has it's main priority the development of young people ACADEMICALLY and that is how it should be.

In today's football....the PRIORITY is to develop players for a professional career in the game.

We already have PFL teams that have Under 20, Under 17, Under 15 and Under 12 teams.  They have that professional environment or at least aspire to it.

Our young players who aspire to a further career in football should be steered therefore in that direction.  What is needed is for those clubs to work together with the learning institutions to provide academic instruction.  But the PRIORITY in this case would be FOOTBALL....NOT Academics.

Not EVERYONE will become an elite, professional footballer.  But the environment in and of itself will help to instill the best characteristics of sport i.e. health, discipline, respect, determination, teamwork, triumph over adversity etc.  This of course depend on the coaches aka TEACHERS at the various professional clubs.

Just my opinion
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline Tallman

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The class of the 20th century
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2005, 03:24:57 PM »
Here is a relevant article dat was written in 2000:
The class of the 20th century - From then to now
The Conquering Lion of Judah shall break every chain.

Offline Cowen

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Isn't the age limit of SSF 21 years. I'm not sure ....but i remember something like that when i played
Attended Mad Mad University
Studied Madology
Obtained a Mad Mad Degree

Offline maxg

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Thanks for the contributions, Palos & Tallman. I myself have been really unaware of drastic change in the Mentality of the Intercol environment. I left home in '71, and when I heard 'that word" in the past, I assumed the passion as I left it, as described in that article was what exist.
I have met some very good players from home, and found some of them to be shamelessly Self-centered, but dismissed this to the individual personality, without actually realizing that they were an average product of the changed football culture (even Denzil & Richie at times). I didn't judge them by that trait, as I saw other many good character traits in those individuals. Except on the Topic of Football. I will therefore have to re-think my thought process, and make some adjustments to my ideas of approach and execution in dealing with the Youth level in T&T.  Observer, we go talk.

 

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