Yorke focuses on positives from United game

[Bakes]

I fully agree with what kev say and what you saying here...

but this game here against Man U woulda be the wrong game to start... dey woulda get ah cool 6!
Consolidation is de key right now...

Probably.... I think the only difference between your position and mine is that to me they ceded whatever benefit of the doubt I would have extended them long ago.  It just seemed like more of the same.  One way of looking at it would be to say they have nothing else at this point to lose... another way would be to say that Sbragia is coaching for the job... or at least stanch the bleeding and bolster his chances of getting another managerial gig somewhere in the future.  And keeping the team from relegation of course...

[fordy]

I fully agree with what kev say and what you saying here...

but this game here against Man U woulda be the wrong game to start... dey woulda get ah cool 6!
Consolidation is de key right now...

Probably.... I think the only difference between your position and mine is that to me they ceded whatever benefit of the doubt I would have extended them long ago.  It just seemed like more of the same.  One way of looking at it would be to say they have nothing else at this point to lose... another way would be to say that Sbragia is coaching for the job... or at least stanch the bleeding and bolster his chances of getting another managerial gig somewhere in the future.  And keeping the team from relegation of course...

bake and shark i agree with u and their negative play. you cant be going into every game week in and week out playing negative ball. but regarding the game against manu, they really didnt have a choice!

[kicker]

allyuh full ah shyt when we do it against sweden it was ok. now them ketching they ass against man-u and it not ok.

Allyuh men real insistent on making this comparison between Sunderbland and TnT v. Sweden boy...

Against Sweden even with 10 men TnT still managed 41% of possession (to Sweden's 59%) and managed 2 shots on goal.  Arguably us holding Sweden to a draw was an 'upset' of seismic proportions... particularly considering Sweden's man advantage.  For any number of reasons we didn't belong on the same field as Sweden... we were the weakest link in a four-team delegation, from one of the weakest confederation. 

Sweden on the other hand, for all their perennial underachieving was arguably one of the more potent teams, in arguably FIFA's strongest confederation.  Of all our players none deserved mention alongside their Swedish counterparts, with the possible exceptions of Yorke, Latas and Shaka... all of whom were well beyond their prime.

Now compare that to Sunderland v. ManU... not sure what the relative times of possession were, but I guarantee you that Sunderland came nowhere close to maintaining possession for 41% of the time... it was utter and complete one-way traffic, with very minor exception.   Sunderland managed 0 shots on goal at full strength, while ManU. managed 7... also at full strength of course.

As outclassed as they were as a team... credible arguments could be made that in the least Cisse and KJ deserve mention among the most potent forwards in the EPL.  If you want then throw out Cisse... but certainly KJ's potential can't be argued... so at least one Sunderland player can lay claim to being in the same class as the opponents on Saturday.  Finally, the gulf between Sunderland and ManU is nowhere as large as that between TnT and Sweden, had Sunderland held ManU scoreless... or even had they defeated them, that would be nowhere as shocking as the result we got against Sweden.

I understand you fellas want to give Blunderland a bligh... but time for the silly-ass comparisons to end.

I don't fully agree with the comparisons either.  I don't think T&T went into the Sweden match with the intention of parking the bus infront of the goal.  I think we were just pressed into our own half by a stronger team.  We hustled, and when we had the ball there were attempts to attack.  (at least to my memory)...   Our tactics became a bit more defensive when we lost a man- naturally.  Against England it was more of the same to me.  We attempted to keep the ball when we had it, and attempted to build constructively...we just didn't have the quality, time nor space to do so....so often it resulted in rushed plays, and long balls out of the back..as time wore on, legs grew weary, with one eye on the scoreline our game became more conservative-naturally (until we conceded a goal)...  

I honestly don't think that T&T with the personnel employed, could have made a bigger attacking impression against Sweden or England.  Yes I know the Latapy argument can raise its head here, but even with Latas, I think we would have pinned back in our half for the lion share of the game......I think we played as balanced as we could....I can't say the same for Sunderland on the weekend.  I think they played very much within themselves from an attacking perspective- not saying they didn't play with heart or that they did a bad job....Just think their mindset was more defensive than ours in the WC.  

The only parallel I see is that Sunderland, like T&T faced a stronger team, and were ultimately outplayed. 

[Bakes]

bake and shark i agree with u and their negative play. you cant be going into every game week in and week out playing negative ball. but regarding the game against manu, they really didnt have a choice!

Well let's see what they can do Fordy... 3 pts in their last six isn't cutting it to state the obvious (right FF  ), but let's see what happens in their next six, when they play:

WBA
Hull
Blackburn
Everton
Boro
...and Villa

Not easy, but not a difficult stretch either... certainly a couple bottom-feeders among that group and they should at least given themselves a chance at clearing the relegation zone.  They are currently a point back of Newcastle (up next vs. Portsmouth), two behind Man City (Everton), Spurs (Man U.) and West Ham (Chelsea) and three back (one victory) of Fulham (Arsenal), Stoke (Boro) and Wigan (Blackburn)... so certainly if they're to make a push towards the middle of the table now would be the time to do so.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, maybe this is what Sbragia had in mind... hold against Man U. on the road and try to get as many points as possible in the upcoming weeks.  Let's see what happens from here on out 

[Bakes]

I don't fully agree with the comparisons either.  I don't think T&T went into the Sweden match with the intention of parking the bus infront of the goal.  I think we were just pressed into our own half by a stronger team.  We hustled, and when we had the ball there were attempts to attack.  (at least to my memory)...   Our tactics became a bit more defensive when we lost a man- naturally.  Against England it was more of the same to me.  We attempted to keep the ball when we had it, and attempted to build constructively...we just didn't have the quality, time nor space to do so....so often it resulted in rushed plays, and long balls out of the back..as time wore on, legs grew weary, with one eye on the scoreline our game became more conservative-naturally (until we conceded a goal)...  

I honestly don't think that T&T with the personnel employed, could have made a bigger attacking impression against Sweden or England.  Yes I know the Latapy argument can raise its head here, but even with Latas, I think we would have pinned back in our half for the lion share of the game......I think we played as balanced as we could....I can't say the same for Sunderland on the weekend.  I think they played very much within themselves from an attacking perspective- not saying they didn't play with heart or that they did a bad job....Just think their mindset was more defensive than ours in the WC.  

The only parallel I see is that Sunderland, like T&T faced a stronger team, and were ultimately outplayed. 

Kicker I actually started to make the comparison with the England game as well in the other thread... but then I realized that FF and Monkey Genius were talking mainly about Sweden.  Of course the opening talk was just about TnT's play at the WC so England is fair game.  My point is that I agree with you 100%... on aggregate there's no way you can look at what we did in Germany and make a comparison with Sunderland.  Without a doubt our play was dictated by necessity, and even then we still tried to take the fight to England particularly, but yet still managed to put a fright into Sweden by at least hitting the post once and forcing a save on another occasion.

But I won't beat the dead horse... I don't want to see them relegated, and with the upcoming stretch of games they have a chance to do something about it, so let's see if they can demonstrate some change we can believe in... or if Sbragia will give us 'more of the same' 

[FF]

aye aye aye...

I actually only bring up the sweden game once when ah man bawl sunderland played with no heart...

I still stand by my assessment that men woulda be breaking on deyself if it was TnT playing

[Mad Scorpion a/k/a Big Bo$$]

Buh Morv who de hell say dey was goin an beat dem? I wouldn't expect dem to win da match on dey bess day but at least look like yuh belong in de league nah.  Even friggin WBA does try to run at teams.  So because Keane gone dey ha no ability to do anything but defend fuh 80 minutes?

to please who? you?

accumulating points is de name of de game to survive... considering sunderland's circumstances coming into de game... their strategy was not too bad... and it nearly work... they lost by a matter of inches.. carrick shot coulda hit off the post and go de next way for a goal kick...

In your world nearly musse count fuh sumting

nope..
but as morvant say it was about damage control.. steadying the ship... it woulda do dem no good to waltz in dere and collect ah cool 6...

dey can take positives in an improved defensive performance in what was arguably their hardest away game... now they can look to work on de offence...

but that wouldn't make sense to you now would it?

So in order fuh dem to play good defense dey need to play 10-0-0 formation?  Dat make sense to you?  That defensive stance is fools gold and can't be counted as the defense holding up considering every player had to be a defender.  What formation are they going to run going forward that could provide similar defensive posture?  Allyuh does outsmart allyuh self wid dem ass talk.  You musse tink you talkin to somebody who eh no nutten bout ball oui!  Try again killa!

Prime, all i was trying to explain to you...as well as morvant...was the fact that Sunderland trying to get points. its unfortunate that their team isnt built to have a back four to hold the defense good, or a midfield that can go both ways for the enitre 90 minutes or two-three strikers to buss de net. they are no way in the same class as the manu's, liverpool, arsenal and chelsea (check the last four years and u will see how the table finish in the epl). so especially going into old trafford, where big teams like roma get ah set ah goal against them, losing their manager, and having the lack of talent they do, sunderland did the smart thing to defend for the game. to manu's credit, they nullified the counter attack very nicely but again, if u watch the game, evra and rafael was playing like flankers so in essence manu played with two conventional defenders for most of the game. thats the intriguing part of the game...the chess moves to break down defenses that for some reason you cant enjoy or accept. no one is saying that the game should be played like that on a consistant basis, but they not in the business of pleasing you on a saturday or sunday brethren, they in the business of getting points and that was their best option of doing so. 

I understand that is a points game, and I can appreciate your POV.  Dwight statement was made for the media and not to be a real indicator of the team outlook and philosophy as far as I see it.  I was being sarcastic and rhetorical initially, until I notice some fellas trying to defend that statement Yorke made wholeheartedly.  From a fan stand point that game was boring to watch.  From a technical standpoint that strategy they employed is one that fails repeatedly in various scenarios.  What they did is even worse than going into defense mode when you go up 1-0.  At least when you go up 1-0 if a goal scores you still have points.  What have they gained from that game, 0 points and much dissapointment after feeling like "frig just 1 more minute an we had ah point."  Man U players look like dem was playing we national team out there and given the experience of the players on the pitch I don't see the NT as their equals.  Man playin schupid now in this argument like KJ eh in Managers head and can't be seen as an equal to no Man U players skill wise yet before his injury he was one of the hottest topics in the EPL.  There were various points when Manu U's whole teame save for Van Der Saar was in SFC's half of the pitch knocking the ball around.  Despite the 10 defenders Man U created and squandered many opportunities that could have resulted in goals.  SFC have to be feeling a bit lucky that their tactics didn't backfire.

I go be curious to see wha man in here go say when they face the likes of West Brom and Blackburn and play more shit ball.  I eh go even mention Hull because dey could pencil een ah cutarse from now unless they defense improve.

[kicker]

I still stand by my assessment that men woulda be breaking on deyself if it was TnT playing

Yeah of course...I agree with you we'd take alot of pride in not being disgraced. (whilst arguin' that Latas shoulda sweat   )

And I think we are also commingling "heart" with adventurousness when in fact the two can be mutually exclusive.

I have no basis to say that Sunderland played with any less heart than T&T did in the WC... I've played the game and I appreciate the effort it takes to concentrate on closing down the spaces, chase the loose balls (and shadows), track markers, make the last ditch tackles and stay organized and disciplined against a team that has better quality.....even if it may appear to a spectator, as if you're just sitting back and waiting on the opposition...so I not dissin the black cats.....but I do think they were less adventurous than we were...

[Dinner Mints]

De possession stats vs England was even worse dan Sweden. So we were actually more defensive in the second game.

Possession
England 67%    T&T 33%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5057808.stm

England 63%   T&T   37%

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/germany2006/results/matches/match=97410019/report.html

We just accomplished more going forward than the first game. Which seems to have given the illusion that we were up to something. I still maintain that we lose 2-1.

[Bakes]

De possession stats vs England was even worse dan Sweden. So we were actually more defensive in the second game.

Possession
England 67%    T&T 33%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5057808.stm

England 63%   T&T   37%

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/germany2006/results/matches/match=97410019/report.html

We just accomplished more going forward than the first game. Which seems to have given the illusion that we were up to something. I still maintain that we lose 2-1.

How much did Sunderland accomplish going forward against Man U?

Save for the corner KJ won... did Sunderland even venture forward anything worth mentioning??

steups.

[Dinner Mints]

De possession stats vs England was even worse dan Sweden. So we were actually more defensive in the second game.

Possession
England 67%    T&T 33%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/5057808.stm

England 63%   T&T   37%

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/germany2006/results/matches/match=97410019/report.html

We just accomplished more going forward than the first game. Which seems to have given the illusion that we were up to something. I still maintain that we lose 2-1.

How much did Sunderland accomplish going forward against Man U?

Save for the corner KJ won... did Sunderland even venture forward anything worth mentioning??

steups.

You seem to be confusing intent with circumstance. I doubt their game plan involved 90 minutes of bunkered defence. Or else man like Andy Reid wouldn't even be on the field. Carlos woulda never see a minute. We'd be seeing Leadbitter or Tainio getting a start.

They didn't accomplish much going forward, but they did try to go forward. Their attacks broke down quickly. Whether bad pass, poor cross or domination by a superior midfield, the circumstances of the game pressed them into their own half. Which is similar to what happens with TT against superior opposition. Which brings us back to the fact that if TT held out for so long against dominant opposition, nobody would call it 'embarassing' or emphasize how 'shit' our side was. They would applaud the heart and workrate involved in the effort.

Meanwhile you trying to prove how less 'shitty' TT was in de World Cup to justify the double standard.

[assrancid]

And Coops saying that Sunderland playing crap because too many Trinis on the team.  What an ass.  Like the trinis have been starting and on the field at the same time.

Bakes, Sunderland played crap and is an outright shit side.
Roy Keane spent 70million pounds and the team has no fluidity and the players do not complement each other.  As Kev said they approach each game with a negative mindset, let us minimize the pounding and as such play a brand that is very negative.

Instead of playing football and letting the chips fall where they may..as Hull does, they are intent on playing a brand that is based on avoiding a sever cut ass.  as a result, they are being beatne before they take the field/

[Mad Scorpion a/k/a Big Bo$$]

And Coops saying that Sunderland playing crap because too many Trinis on the team.  What an ass.  Like the trinis have been starting and on the field at the same time.

Bakes, Sunderland played crap and is an outright shit side.
Roy Keane spent 70million pounds and the team has no fluidity and the players do not complement each other.  As Kev said they approach each game with a negative mindset, let us minimize the pounding and as such play a brand that is very negative.

Instead of playing football and letting the chips fall where they may..as Hull does, they are intent on playing a brand that is based on avoiding a sever cut ass.  as a result, they are being beatne before they take the field/

that songin correct!

[Bakes]

You seem to be confusing intent with circumstance. I doubt their game plan involved 90 minutes of bunkered defence. Or else man like Andy Reid wouldn't even be on the field. Carlos woulda never see a minute. We'd be seeing Leadbitter or Tainio getting a start.

They didn't accomplish much going forward, but they did try to go forward. Their attacks broke down quickly. Whether bad pass, poor cross or domination by a superior midfield, the circumstances of the game pressed them into their own half. Which is similar to what happens with TT against superior opposition. Which brings us back to the fact that if TT held out for so long against dominant opposition, nobody would call it 'embarassing' or emphasize how 'shit' our side was. They would applaud the heart and workrate involved in the effort.

Meanwhile you trying to prove how less 'shitty' TT was in de World Cup to justify the double standard.

You's ah f**kkin dunce or what?  Is when I read shit like this I does stop being patient with morons like you.  I never said anything about intent in my criticism of Sunderland.  The only time I mentioned anything remotely related to intent was to cosign on what Kev said about them stepping on the field as though having already conceded defeat.

Everything else that I said relates to performance... and whether they intended to do better or not the fact is that they played the usual pack of unimaginative shit. Once they realized the clock was working in their favor they then seemingly tried to play for a draw, to the point of trying to kill off the clock when KJ won a corner.  THAT has been my criticism... the overall lack of quality, regardless of intent.

There is no 'double-standard' to justify because simply put TnT did BETTER with less, and with less expectations on them.  You are the only fool still trying to compare what that team did to the Germany campaign... regardless of the fact that it's been shown to be a failed argument.  We didn't score in Germany but it wasn't for lack of effort.  Sunderland BARELY seemed interested in going forward... let alone scoring.

But then again, why am I wasting time arguing with you?  I might have better luck reasoning my navel lint than to continue entertaining you and yuh simian shittery.

---------

Assrancid... totally agree.

[Dinner Mints]

Yep. Loud, curse-laden ad hominem response, light on detail but heavy on bluster. Right on time. Lemme set mih watch... 3:36. Thanks.

[kev]

I fully agree with what kev say and what you saying here...

but this game here against Man U woulda be the wrong game to start... dey woulda get ah cool 6!
Consolidation is de key right now...

Probably.... I think the only difference between your position and mine is that to me they ceded whatever benefit of the doubt I would have extended them long ago.  It just seemed like more of the same.  One way of looking at it would be to say they have nothing else at this point to lose... another way would be to say that Sbragia is coaching for the job... or at least stanch the bleeding and bolster his chances of getting another managerial gig somewhere in the future.  And keeping the team from relegation of course...

Thats not going to happen.

I have criticised the coaching numerous times both last season and this, indeed week after week watching the same mistakes particularly in defence and midfield just left me wondering what goes on in training through the week. 

Now there was rumours that Keane wasn't taking any notice of the coaching staff, but Saturday will give me a better idea. 

The team has decent enough players to survive relatively easily in the Prem.  However the midfield doesn't work and is unbalanced, it's rolled over far too easily.  Strangely given the type of player Keane was he preferred what I call tippy tappy players, who can't tackle and the club has far too many of these types.  The only different midfielder is Whitehead, although he has played well the last few weeks is simply not good enough other than a struggling Prem team.  He sold Ethutu in the summer and didn't replace him which worried me.  He passing was awful but he brought some strength, tackling and running into midfield which protected a dodgy defence.  We need a player like that in January.  On top of this you put into the mix poor organisation and the lack of a natural leader on the pitch and you have trouble.  The same problems were there last season and I will always struggle to understand why Keane didn't address them.   

The board are meeting today to discuss the applications so I would hope a new manager will be in place next week, I also hope he brings a coach with him.  A couple of additions and some organisation we should be OK as the table is congested.  I am not foolish enough to expect instant change as the new manager will have to have a look at what he has, how to best use it and what he needs.  If we go down we go down its as simple as that.

BNS I try to be as honest as I can without too much bias / defensive behaviour, I am not someone who defends the manager / club at all costs so I enjoy the debate we have, but I will say it again its only a shit team because its unbalanced, lacks organisation and tactics.  I just want to see decent football, I don't think the team can play 442 or 433 against the bigger teams because of the things mentioned above, I would personally opt for 442 at home against the vast majority of teams and some away games, but 451 for the majority of away games.  If we fill the gaps my personal opinion is that you pick a system and play to it for the most part as it makes for a settled side / tactics and players know their jobs.  I am also a great believer in worrying about your own team rather than the opposition, Keane this year worried far too much about the opposition which has resulted in changing too many players too often and using too many formations, resulting in  confusion and defeat.

[Bakes]

Fair assessment Kev, the opportunity for improvement is there... whether there is the potential within the team to reach that potential is another matter.  You are closer to the team than I am so if you're optimistic about their chances then I'll go with that for now.  Let's see how the next couple weeks shape up