April 27, 2024, 09:34:22 PM

Author Topic: WTF really going on in once a sweet paradise tnt?  (Read 4791 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

truetrini

  • Guest
Re: WTF really going on in once a sweet paradise tnt?
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2008, 04:53:26 PM »
We reverting to a basic social order because the rot at the core of the wider order was never addressed. A portion of our population historically forced to live as victims of unbridled captalism/mercantilism now ironically are willing particpants in closely related social constructs.

When history books still extolling the virtues of Walter Raleigh and the like, the modern world decrys drug dealers, killers and pirates. But the reality is they are one and the same. Simply separated by time and race.

so we devolving....Walter Raleigh and those guys viewed thru revisionist eyes eh?  As  a student of Historuy I can advise that it is not wise to judge history from now backwards, but rather from then forward.

What is the basic social order?  Survival of the fittest?  Or is it a hierarchical pattern akin to in many ways to Maslow’s seminal Hierarchy of Needs?

Zandolie yuh making big statements dey breds.  Social order, repair of failing state, order and maintenance, and finally Vision 20/20  Yuh make me smile here boy.

anyway, in any society the basic unit, the foundation is the family.....things to make you go hmmmmmmmm!

If indeed you agree that family is the basic unit, then the unit is under attack based on the unequal treatment of women as evidenced by the soca and reggae and de hip hop our children are exposed to.

Further, if adult partners are not equals then how is there modeling for children?

If the male (father) is absent, or fails to protect and provide and nurture then how are adolescents going to mature into responsible parents and citizens?

In effect, unhealthy families yield unhealthy citizens, thusly an unhealthy nation.

How is that for a treatise?

And how does the government solve that issue?

Offline ZANDOLIE

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4337
    • View Profile
Re: WTF really going on in once a sweet paradise tnt?
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2008, 06:23:05 PM »
"so we devolving....Walter Raleigh and those guys viewed thru revisionist eyes eh?  As  a student of Historuy I can advise that it is not wise to judge history from now backwards, but rather from then forward."

And I can advise you that it is equally unwise to view history as a straight line. Raleigh was viewed as hero in England but as a criminal in Spain for among other things his role in the attack on Cadiz. Don't you think drug dealers, pirates etc. are viewed as heroes in their own communities and as rogues in the wider context? That Raleigh's activities had the sanction of the throne or that he was "learned" or even a nice guy makes not one bit of difference. So where did I revise his role in history, except to suggest modern parallels?


"What is the basic social order?  Survival of the fittest?  Or is it a hierarchical pattern akin to in many ways to Maslow’s seminal Hierarchy of Needs?  Zandolie yuh making big statements dey breds.  Social order, repair of failing state, order and maintenance, and finally Vision 20/20  Yuh make me smile here boy."

Wey sah, is Maslow you try to drop on my my head so.  :D We could debate that the futility of a pre WWII European derived universal theory of psychological behavior, but I see yuh protect yuhself by using "akin"

To understand the specifics of the social disintegration most visibly represented by criminal culture in T&T and the larger diaspora such that you could offer a prognosis let alone a diagnosis is a task well beyond me. But me eh have to rely on a dead academic to understand that criminal activity that increasingly regulates and restricts the movement and activity of the citizenry must be addressed before the state itself becomes compromised and breaks into segments not by the will of the people but for the benefit a few powerful people.

"anyway, in any society the basic unit, the foundation is the family.....things to make you go hmmmmmmmm!"

Really? Define family....mommy daddy and 1.7 children and cyat and dog? Or loose affiliations of fatherless/parentless children that rob and kill to keep themselves alive.   Just because Boaz and Mead defined family as "so and so",  doh make it so.


"If indeed you agree that family is the basic unit, then the unit is under attack based on the unequal treatment of women as evidenced by the soca and reggae and de hip hop our children are exposed to.

Further, if adult partners are not equals then how is there modeling for children?

If the male (father) is absent, or fails to protect and provide and nurture then how are adolescents going to mature into responsible parents and citizens?

In effect, unhealthy families yield unhealthy citizens, thusly an unhealthy nation.

How is that for a treatise?"


I very much agree.

"And how does the government solve that issue?"

Several options

1) Do nothing and let the situation continue with belief that socieites eventually get better, or that we should let God sort it out. Neo-Darwinism.

2) Adopt social and educational reform to break the cycle of violence. Problem is success has been limited.

3) Suspend civil liberties/constitutional rights to allow the state break the back of crime.

4) There is no solution because the global forces that mediate modern culture are stronger than the government or will power of the people of T&T. Just do whatever the West does.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 06:36:03 PM by ZANDOLIE »
Sacred cows make the best hamburger

Offline Tallman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 25304
    • View Profile
Re: WTF really going on in once a sweet paradise tnt?
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2008, 06:35:10 PM »
When history books still extolling the virtues of Walter Raleigh and the like, the modern world decrys drug dealers, killers and pirates. But the reality is they are one and the same. Simply separated by time and race.

Reminds me of Can't Blame the Youth by Peter Tosh
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/LxxQ92rE3JI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/LxxQ92rE3JI</a>

You can’t blame the youth, you can’t fool the youth,
You can’t blame the youth of today, you can’t fool the youth.

You teach the youth to learn in school that cow jump over moon,
You teach the youth to learn in school that the dish run away with the spoon.

You can’t blame the youth (when they don’t learn), you can’t fool the youth,
You can’t blame the youth, you can’t fool the youth.

You teach the youth about Christopher Columbus,
And you said he was a very great man.

You teach the youth about Marco Polo,
And you said he was a very great man.

You teach the youth about the pirate Hawkins,
And you said he was a very great man.

You teach the youth about the pirate Morgan,
And you said he was a very great man.

Chorus

All these great men were doing is robbing, raping, kidnapping and killing,
So-called great men were doing is robbing, raping, kidnapping and killing.

Chorus

When every Christmas come, you buy the youth a pretty toy gun.
When every Christmas come, you buy the youth a fancy toy gun.

Chorus

What was hidden from the wise and prudent now revealed to the Babes and suckling.
What was hidden from the  wise and prudent now revealed to the Babes and suckling.

Lord call upon the youth for He knows the youth’ll be strong,
Jah-Jah call upon the youth for He knows the youth’ll be strong.

Chorus
The Conquering Lion of Judah shall break every chain.

truetrini

  • Guest
Re: WTF really going on in once a sweet paradise tnt?
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2008, 11:30:49 PM »
"so we devolving....Walter Raleigh and those guys viewed thru revisionist eyes eh?  As  a student of Historuy I can advise that it is not wise to judge history from now backwards, but rather from then forward."

And I can advise you that it is equally unwise to view history as a straight line. Raleigh was viewed as hero in England but as a criminal in Spain for among other things his role in the attack on Cadiz. Don't you think drug dealers, pirates etc. are viewed as heroes in their own communities and as rogues in the wider context? That Raleigh's activities had the sanction of the throne or that he was "learned" or even a nice guy makes not one bit of difference. So where did I revise his role in history, except to suggest modern parallels?


"What is the basic social order?  Survival of the fittest?  Or is it a hierarchical pattern akin to in many ways to Maslow’s seminal Hierarchy of Needs?  Zandolie yuh making big statements dey breds.  Social order, repair of failing state, order and maintenance, and finally Vision 20/20  Yuh make me smile here boy."

Wey sah, is Maslow you try to drop on my my head so.  :D We could debate that the futility of a pre WWII European derived universal theory of psychological behavior, but I see yuh protect yuhself by using "akin"

To understand the specifics of the social disintegration most visibly represented by criminal culture in T&T and the larger diaspora such that you could offer a prognosis let alone a diagnosis is a task well beyond me. But me eh have to rely on a dead academic to understand that criminal activity that increasingly regulates and restricts the movement and activity of the citizenry must be addressed before the state itself becomes compromised and breaks into segments not by the will of the people but for the benefit a few powerful people.

"anyway, in any society the basic unit, the foundation is the family.....things to make you go hmmmmmmmm!"

Really? Define family....mommy daddy and 1.7 children and cyat and dog? Or loose affiliations of fatherless/parentless children that rob and kill to keep themselves alive.   Just because Boaz and Mead defined family as "so and so",  doh make it so.


"If indeed you agree that family is the basic unit, then the unit is under attack based on the unequal treatment of women as evidenced by the soca and reggae and de hip hop our children are exposed to.

Further, if adult partners are not equals then how is there modeling for children?

If the male (father) is absent, or fails to protect and provide and nurture then how are adolescents going to mature into responsible parents and citizens?

In effect, unhealthy families yield unhealthy citizens, thusly an unhealthy nation.

How is that for a treatise?"


I very much agree.

"And how does the government solve that issue?"

Several options

1) Do nothing and let the situation continue with belief that socieites eventually get better, or that we should let God sort it out. Neo-Darwinism.

2) Adopt social and educational reform to break the cycle of violence. Problem is success has been limited.

3) Suspend civil liberties/constitutional rights to allow the state break the back of crime.

4) There is no solution because the global forces that mediate modern culture are stronger than the government or will power of the people of T&T. Just do whatever the West does.

Boaz and Mead were correct, even if not in the strictest manner.  Be it a single mother raising her children or the street thugs, family is family, and what it teaches children dteremines what they become as adults for the most part.

If the citizenery decides to be regulated by criminals, if they decide to be compromised, then that is a conscious decision made by that society.

Yes a conscious decision!  I recently read where criminals were run down and apprehended by citizens.  Were they not afraid of reprisals?  Or were they fed up with criminals running shod thru their hood? 

What about civil disobedience?  People cry the government is not doing enough to protect them, yet they fail to stand up and testify in court.  What about demonstrations and work stoppages?

What about sending clear messages to both the government and the criminals that enough is enough?

All the talk about education etc. is old talk really.  back in the day when crime was very limited, the population was less educated than now, but we had more of a community, people had family.

You knew your neighbor's name.  The village raised the child, teachers were respected.

Now there is a different kind of education I guess, globalization, internet, tv, movies all act as socializing factors.  In all fairness High levels of crime may damage community spirit and result in less neighbourliness. People may simply want to ‘keep themselves to themselves’ for fear of harassment and crimes against them.

I remember reading the West Indian Primer and it told about shooting, and fun with a gun, we played cowboys and indians, gun shooting, cops and robbers and nearly everyone had a caps gun, yet we did not have easy access to real guns, and most importantly, we knew that it was all make believe, we were friends, and if we fought we made up soon afterward and the friendship seemed to have been strengthened because of our little skirmishes.

Nowadays if you look at a man the perceived wrong way, you could end up dead...is that a result of education or lack of it?

Maybe we need to go back to the days when we played with guns eh?

Trinidadians need to realize, overall, that what “is” isn’t necessarily what “ought to be”...that change is both possible and probable, under given conditions.

We must learn that “crime” is a “social construction” involving social forces (social structure) and human agency (choice)...and their relationship with and to each other.

I remember reading sociologist Zygmunt Bauman who argued that criminals steal status items in order to appear ‘normal’ within such a materialistic society, maybe you are right on that point.

as for your possible solutions in dealing with crime:

1.  If we leave things the way they are, they will more than likely cause the situation to go into further decay, one can argue that negligence is what caused it to reach this stage thus far.  And of course there is NO GOD to sort anything out!

2.  Education is always a good thing, and it may help in keeping younger ones away from criminal activity in the fututre, BUT, the horse has already bolted from the barn, and dem old dogs eh interested in learning new tricks.

3.  Suspending civil liberties is an option, albeit a dangerous one.  remember the PM wanted a Constitutional Reform for an executive PM?  lol  Opening a can of worms, suppoe the leaders like the way we have limited rights and decide to keep it so?  What then?

4.  There are always solutions, well let me rephrase...there are always other options.  The troubke with T&T is that we always trying to copy the west. lol  It may be indeed be the case where our collective will is so weak that we capitulated already...once dey doh stop we carnival.


 

1]; } ?>