Author Topic: Defensive midfield (Read 6426 times)

Filho · « **on:** December 18, 2008, 03:01:20 PM »

Perhaps the one position in football that has gotten a complete makeover and continues to evolve more rapidly than any other. Once perceived to be the domain of the less technically gifted workhorses of the team...the defensive midfielder is probably the first man on the teamsheet (after the keeper) today. The position is now glamorous and I suspect youths line up to play the position today moreso than 10 or 15 years ago.

Imo...each squad has two types of d-midfielders - a destroyer (Birchall) and a Holding player/outlet pass (Yorke). Each is expected to add steel to the midfield, but the latter is actually a hybrid playmaker with good technical skills and ability to dictate the pace of a game while keeping it simple on the ball. My feeling is all d-midfielders are actually evolving into the latter. Even Gattusso (quintessential destroyer) is very comfortable on the ball.

What is allyuh take on this position. Is it killing the traditional #10? Will the Decos, Xavis and Gutis disappear to be replaced by Mascherano, Senna, Flamini et al. Most teams have gone from 1 d-midfielder in the starting 11, to a minimum of two. Even attacking teams like Barca will most times go with Busquets/Yaya, Busquets/Keita, or Yaya/Keita.

And who really revolutionize this position? Makas? Or is that Euro propoganda. Had boss d-midfielders before the Frenchman no? Who is your favorite of all time? Was a time when the defensive midfielder get on the ball and yuh groaning for him to pass it off. Today, he is a general.

FF · « **Reply #1 on:** December 18, 2008, 03:07:03 PM »

Current favourite: 100% Barataria!! ploy ploy ploy... Soca labourers!! Gi dem blade!

Past favourite: Patrick Vieira... he is in de mould of this hybrid that we noticing these days imo..

Filho · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2008, 03:15:14 PM »

Quote from: FF on December 18, 2008, 03:07:03 PM

Current favourite: 100% Barataria!! ploy ploy ploy... Soca labourers!! Gi dem blade!

Past favourite: Patrick Vieira... he is in de mould of this hybrid that we noticing these days imo..

Same ting I torking about..Baratario used to be a traditional #10

sinned · « **Reply #3 on:** December 18, 2008, 03:23:04 PM »

Interesting points Filho.

I just want to add a couple related points about the evolution of the midfield. I think it is true that midfields are not as dependent on traditional #10s as before and the focus seems to have shifted to strong defensive midfielders. A couple factors I think are relevant.

I see more and more creative, skillful mids advance to attacking mids/ trequartista and even striker roles. I think of CR7, Del Piero, Totti, Messi etc. as players who play in pretty advanced positions and rarely make plays from a deep position. Defensive mids now have increased responsibility to distribute and make plays from a deep position - a la Pirlo, Mascherano etc - to give the more skillful mids the chance to play in a more advanced position and get more goal-scoring opportunities. I don't know if the playmaking defensive mids are a cause or effect of this.

As for the steely defensive mids, I think the game has perhaps gotten more physical and controlling ball possession is more a factor of being able to firmly tackle and shield the ball than slick passing. A crisp passing game is nice to watch but it is becoming increasingly hard to maintain adequate ball possession with this style of play. Teams just love having an enforcer in the mid now to win some of those physical battles. I think another point is that more and more of the big clubs are buying an excess of midfield 'playmakers' who really shy away from hard tackling and enforcing physical defending so in order to hold the midfield together big clubs with a galaxy of stars in the midfield need (or feel the need) to have a steely, composed defensive mid. And it has worked when they did it.

daryn · « **Reply #4 on:** December 18, 2008, 03:31:08 PM »

Quote from: Filho on December 18, 2008, 03:01:20 PM

And who really revolutionize this position? Makas? Or is that Euro propoganda.

I don't think he revolutionize the position by himself but I think that people really start to appreciate that role when Real's performance dropped off right after he left.

Several others were probably on a comparable level to him but Madrid was a good case study of losing a player like that without putting too much effort into replacing him.

Observer · « **Reply #5 on:** December 18, 2008, 03:43:51 PM »

Quote from: Filho on December 18, 2008, 03:01:20 PM

Perhaps the one position in football that has gotten a complete makeover and continues to evolve more rapidly than any other. Once perceived to be the domain of the less technically gifted workhorses of the team...the defensive midfielder is probably the first man on the teamsheet (after the keeper) today. The position is now glamorous and I suspect youths line up to play the position today moreso than 10 or 15 years ago.

Imo...each squad has two types of d-midfielders - a destroyer (Birchall) and a Holding player/outlet pass (Yorke). Each is expected to add steel to the midfield, but the latter is actually a hybrid playmaker with good technical skills and ability to dictate the pace of a game while keeping it simple on the ball. My feeling is all d-midfielders are actually evolving into the latter. Even Gattusso (quintessential destroyer) is very comfortable on the ball.

What is allyuh take on this position. Is it killing the traditional #10? Will the Decos, Xavis and Gutis disappear to be replaced by Mascherano, Senna, Flamini et al. Most teams have gone from 1 d-midfielder in the starting 11, to a minimum of two. Even attacking teams like Barca will most times go with Busquets/Yaya, Busquets/Keita, or Yaya/Keita.

And who really revolutionize this position? Makas? Or is that Euro propoganda. Had boss d-midfielders before the Frenchman no? Who is your favorite of all time? Was a time when the defensive midfielder get on the ball and yuh groaning for him to pass it off. Today, he is a general.

Euro propoganda no doubt. The position always existed especially in Brazilian football. Gerson and Cloraldo come to mind, but for me the best player in that position was Mauro Silva. After 1994 World Cup the then FIFA analysis Arsen Wenger termed the position the windshield wiper. Silva was then bought by Deportivo La Corouna where he became a legend and backbone of the team. Unlike Makas, Silva was far more creative with his passing ability. As for taking away the playmaker. That talk has existed for years and I say no way. France used Deschamps and Petite or Viera in 1998 WC. Italy used a twist on the position in 2006, with Pirlo operating as a playmaker from that role (first used by Cruyff with Pepe G at Barca)

100% Barataria · « **Reply #6 on:** December 18, 2008, 04:21:30 PM »

Quote from: Filho on December 18, 2008, 03:15:14 PM

Quote from: FF on December 18, 2008, 03:07:03 PM
Current favourite: 100% Barataria!! ploy ploy ploy... Soca labourers!! Gi dem blade!

Past favourite: Patrick Vieira... he is in de mould of this hybrid that we noticing these days imo..

Same ting I torking about..Baratario used to be a traditional #10

Thanks for the shout out fellas

Actually, I don't think it is killing the game to answer your question, but I'd say the significance of the defensive mid (to John public, they were always crucial) has grown significantly to the pt. where as you say, more youths would want to aspire to playing this position. As for my non-career, I made that transition once the legs got slower, an attacking mid needs many skills but IMO is most effective when possessing these skills and is quick a la Messi, Ronaldo etc (though slower players like Riquelme can do this effectively); not that a defensive mid can completely get away w/tired slower legs, but given that he is carrying the ball a bit less than an attackin mid, he doesn't need to be as quick IMO, plus I personally enjoy de "bruise a brody" approach, "whey yuh goin, whap whap"

Disgruntled_Trini · « **Reply #7 on:** December 18, 2008, 05:22:20 PM »

IMO, the best was Edgar Davids. No disrespect no Claude, he was a boss in he own right but sometimes yuh get the feeling that he couldn't pass the ball more than 5 feet left or right. One only needs to look back at that half season when Barca acquired Davids on loan to see his impact. He helped rally that team from nearly last to a 2nd place finish, and if the season was any longer they would've won. He was skillful on the ball, could pelt he blade and could ping it long. He freed up R10 to work is magic and we doh even have to go back to his Juve days when he was pelting he blade wreck less and just laying it off for Zizou and Del Piero to do their magic.

Then it have Pirlo, who is not exactly a DM but plays so deep that he is impossible to mark and sometimes you almost forget he is on the field, but he is actually controlling the game.

Quote from: Filho on December 18, 2008, 03:01:20 PM

Even attacking teams like Barca will most times go with Busquets/Yaya, Busquets/Keita, or Yaya/Keita.

Doh necessarily agree with yuh point here.
I think it just depends on yuh opposition. If yuh know yuh going to play against a side with some good attacking players then why not start with two DMs who could do a bit of both - defend and attack. Rather than starting Xavi/Iniesta and then have poor Yaya trying his best to cover the whole defense.

kicker · « **Reply #8 on:** December 18, 2008, 05:27:56 PM »

Observer yuh call two big players dey Gerson & Clodoaldo...I didn't even know that Clodoaldo was defensive mid...didn't see much of those guys because of the time they played in, but I recognize that they were massive players in their time, and Clodoaldo's little shimmy around 3 players in the final against Italy in WC 70 will remain etched in my mind as one of the coolest lil displays of individual skill I've seen in a game...minute 7:50 in the video link below- On a side note, check Brazil's keeper's jokey save on 4:08:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMJoe-H7wps&feature=related

Sinned-I never thought of Pirlo as a defensive midfielder. Though he plays deep I think he plays the role of the traditional no:10 - Pirlo is not on the field to break up plays and get his socks dirty.....He's there to create.... But now yuh have me thinking.

Anyways my favorite Def. middies are Redondo and Mauro Silva- good ball winners with the skill of creative players...

About Makalele- I'm not sure if he revolutionized the position in terms of giving it a different role or being undisputedly the best there is, but I think he revolutionized the look of it by playing it so well and at the same time appearing to not break a sweat.....

dinho · « **Reply #9 on:** December 18, 2008, 05:36:05 PM »

excellent thread kicker..

Disgruntled_Trini · « **Reply #10 on:** December 18, 2008, 05:51:51 PM »

Quote from: kicker on December 18, 2008, 05:27:56 PM

Anyways my favorite Def. middies are Redondo and Mauro Silva- good ball winners with the skill of creative players...

now that is player
one of the best one touch players ever

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/SThP1IfDrg8" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/SThP1IfDrg8</a>

Edgar Davids, his Juve days starts around the 1:56 mark.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/PBXda-g9LsY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/PBXda-g9LsY</a>

Filho · « **Reply #11 on:** December 18, 2008, 06:15:35 PM »

Quote from: Disgruntled_Trini on December 18, 2008, 05:22:20 PM

Quote from: Filho on December 18, 2008, 03:01:20 PM

Even attacking teams like Barca will most times go with Busquets/Yaya, Busquets/Keita, or Yaya/Keita.

Doh necessarily agree with yuh point here.
I think it just depends on yuh opposition. If yuh know yuh going to play against a side with some good attacking players then why not start with two DMs who could do a bit of both - defend and attack. Rather than starting Xavi/Iniesta and then have poor Yaya trying his best to cover the whole defense.

Breds, check de Barca line up before Iniesta got hurt. They mostly played a midfield combo of Xavi, Iniesta and any two from Yaya, Keita and Busquets. Since Iniesta get sidelined they revert to more of a 4-3-3, with Eidur getting more of a run and is Xavi, and any two of Eidur, Yaya and Busquets with Keita more coming off the bench.

100% Barataria · « **Reply #12 on:** December 18, 2008, 07:11:04 PM »

Fuhgeh to add, my all time favorite DM is Donadoni, excellent defensive skills, a decent playmaker when needed to step up in that role, and capable of scoring goals, had a lethal bullet, many others mentioned deserve credit as well....on de local seen, Whitley reminds me of Donadoni to some degree (before the injury), would love to see him recaputure that form....

Big Magician · « **Reply #13 on:** December 18, 2008, 07:38:49 PM »

good stuff...

palos · « **Reply #14 on:** December 18, 2008, 07:58:12 PM »

Quote from: 100% Barataria on December 18, 2008, 07:11:04 PM

Fuhgeh to add, my all time favorite DM is Donadoni,

Observer · « **Reply #15 on:** December 18, 2008, 08:13:11 PM »

Quote from: 100% Barataria on December 18, 2008, 07:11:04 PM

Fuhgeh to add, my all time favorite DM is Donadoni, excellent defensive skills, a decent playmaker when needed to step up in that role, and capable of scoring goals, had a lethal bullet, many others mentioned deserve credit as well....on de local seen, Whitley reminds me of Donadoni to some degree (before the injury), would love to see him recaputure that form....

Don't remember Donadoni playing defensive midfield much. But he was a fantastic player. With Milan he played wide left Midfield, Colombo wide right with the central midfielders pairing of Rijkaard and Ancelotti

College · « **Reply #16 on:** December 18, 2008, 08:28:41 PM »

Quote from: palos on December 18, 2008, 07:58:12 PM

Quote from: 100% Barataria on December 18, 2008, 07:11:04 PM
Fuhgeh to add, my all time favorite DM is Donadoni,

Ah doh think Donadoni have a defensive bone in he body, but say what ... This is a nice thread and this is the position I like playing the most ...and I used to be a forward, but as ah get older, ah drift further and further back.

As far as I can remember, this position/role has been around for a long time. Although the game has become more defensive, coaches have come to realize that possessing the ball and starting yuh attack from deeper with a skillfull player is a good option. The Germans have a rep for using creative midfielders in defensive roles later in their careers, notably Mattheus and The Kaiser.

The Italians used this type of player in the 80s, at one point Italy couldnt name a squad without without De Napoli, one of the best I've seen in this role.

Even Gally adopted this position effectively, we used to call it the 'bolt' back then with Floyd Lawrence and Kerry Jamerson. I think Whitley, when fit, is the best option we have for this role and ah hope the bruddah get back to his best, we will need him in the Hex.

Barataria, I eh know yuh have all that, although you might have been one ah them youth team players who used to take they lil toolum nice nice .... lol ah couldnt resist

100% Barataria · « **Reply #17 on:** December 18, 2008, 09:00:06 PM »

Quote from: College on December 18, 2008, 08:28:41 PM

Quote from: palos on December 18, 2008, 07:58:12 PM
Quote from: 100% Barataria on December 18, 2008, 07:11:04 PM
Fuhgeh to add, my all time favorite DM is Donadoni,

Ah doh think Donadoni have a defensive bone in he body, but say what ... This is a nice thread and this is the position I like playing the most ...and I used to be a forward, but as ah get older, ah drift further and further back.
As far as I can remember, this position/role has been around for a long time. Although the game has become more defensive, coaches have come to realize that possessing the ball and starting yuh attack from deeper with a skillfull player is a good option. The Germans have a rep for using creative midfielders in defensive roles later in their careers, notably Mattheus and The Kaiser.

The Italians used this type of player in the 80s, at one point Italy couldnt name a squad without without De Napoli, one of the best I've seen in this role.

Even Gally adopted this position effectively, we used to call it the 'bolt' back then with Floyd Lawrence and Kerry Jamerson. I think Whitley, when fit, is the best option we have for this role and ah hope the bruddah get back to his best, we will need him in the Hex.

Barataria, I eh know yuh have all that, although you might have been one ah them youth team players who used to take they lil toolum nice nice .... lol ah couldnt resist

Correct to some degree, for Italy he played in the DM position, not for his clubs much. The '90 team that lost to Argentina in the semi-finals had him playing behind playmaker Giannini, Di Napoli was also used in this role for the national team. So as a DM for the Italian national team he was quite "complete" in that position.

Yeah man, as a DM yuh cyar be afraid to collect some tolum

, but college, yuh mita be one ah dem fellas on de BBP under 19 team dat collect some hard jam from de under 16's in warm up, if ah see yuh face ah sure ah mite remember ah moment or two

Tenorsaw · « **Reply #18 on:** December 18, 2008, 09:21:34 PM »

Roy Keene up there with the best, in my opinion.

What about Dunga?

kicker · « **Reply #19 on:** December 18, 2008, 11:13:44 PM »

Quote from: omarldinho on December 18, 2008, 05:36:05 PM

excellent thread kicker..

aye aye this going too far...first BNS giving props to filho when it supposed to be for me...now you givin' me props for the thread when iz filho start the thread...

Kicker & filho- two different people...

Thanks...

College · « **Reply #20 on:** December 19, 2008, 01:42:48 AM »

Quote from: FF on December 18, 2008, 03:07:03 PM

Current favourite: 100% Barataria!! ploy ploy ploy... Soca labourers!! Gi dem blade!

Past favourite: Patrick Vieira... he is in de mould of this hybrid that we noticing these days imo..

Go back and check out Desailly back in the day and all he accolades he get while playing this position, at that time he was considered the best in the world.

Filho · « **Reply #21 on:** December 19, 2008, 07:54:11 AM »

To me, the guy who kickstart the biggest evolution to the position in the modern game (post 80s) was a fella named Paulo Sousa who won the Champion's League with Juve and then with Borrussia Dortmund - part of Portugal's golden generation that failed to win any major senior trophies. He was the first in my memory who was a ball winner, but played a real cultured game. Everything went through him and he dictated Juve's rythm. Bess player. Pre-cursor to the Redondo-type player.

My sentimental fave is Alemoa. Hugely underrated, but you'd be living under a rock i you didn't know who he was. Left his mark in the game. More of a destroyer, but technically strong.

In the modern game, there are too many to choose rom. From guys like Yaya Toure, to Flamini, to Gattusso, to Mascherano...but of late I keeping my eye on Juve's Sissoko. Alsways thought he could be excellent and inconsistent at Liverpool, but I've seen him a few times for Juve...this guy is the engine of the team. he makes them tick. A complete warrior whose not afraid to lead the charge forward too.

kicker · « **Reply #22 on:** December 19, 2008, 08:25:30 AM »

Esteban Cambiasso is an often underrated talent in this position.

I think Anderson (Man U) has the potential to be one of the best ever in this position.

Bourbon · « **Reply #23 on:** December 19, 2008, 09:32:15 AM »

Quote from: kicker on December 19, 2008, 08:25:30 AM

Esteban Cambiasso is an often underrated talent in this position.

I think Anderson (Man U) has the potential to be one of the best ever in this position.

Anderson is a boss...a diamond in the rough. Men fighting me down when i saying it..but give him a 2 years.

dinho · « **Reply #24 on:** December 19, 2008, 09:43:39 AM »

Quote from: kicker on December 19, 2008, 08:25:30 AM

Esteban Cambiasso is an often underrated talent in this position.

I think Anderson (Man U) has the potential to be one of the best ever in this position.

u know i always thought Cambiasso was a shitong since he Real Madrid days but i saw a couple Inter games this season and was in awe.. He looks ten times the player...

I real loving the names that call in this thread because even though I like meh flair players, DM is meh favorite position to watch.. Desailly was a boss when he played there as was Matthias Sammer.. Ah find Pep Guardiola and Didier Deschamps eh getting no love either.. Paulo Sousa, ah big tune dat...

Locally, we hadda talk Reynold Carrington, David Nakhid and........... Dwight Yorke.

But I will still maintain Makalele is the best I have ever witnessed in all my years, from Real Madrid go forward.. He is one of my all time favorite players along with Baggio and Romario..

Also I like the way Pirlo plays it as well as a non-tackling CDM so to speak... I read a great article in a Champions League magazine on this very topic a couple years ago. I will see if I can find it when I get some time.

kicker · « **Reply #25 on:** December 19, 2008, 10:04:30 AM »

Quote from: omarldinho on December 19, 2008, 09:43:39 AM

Locally, we hadda talk Reynold Carrington, David Nakhid and........... Dwight Yorke.

Kerry Jamerson...

Does Hutson Charles fit the mould of a defensive middie? ...or just a work horse in general?

fordy · « **Reply #26 on:** December 19, 2008, 10:43:56 AM »

locally i liked kerry jamerson and tony rougier..when he wasnt playing as a defender. internationally, for me desailly and alemao were bosses. Paulo Sousa was the next boss. Brazil has a few of them...alemao, sousa, dunga. maka and viera are also bosses. currently i like watching yaya toure, sissoko and cambiasso!!

palos · « **Reply #27 on:** December 19, 2008, 11:11:51 AM »

The best local defensive midfielder I've ever seen is Christopher Birchall.

And he cyah get a run in a First Division English club team.

By the way....I believe Floyd Lawrence was the defensive mid on the Strike Squad, not Kerry Jamerson.

ON DE BLOCK · « **Reply #28 on:** December 19, 2008, 11:17:49 AM »

definately davids is one of my favs, birchall is the best we have on the team but locally noel, leon and theobald did an excellent job also.

dinho · « **Reply #29 on:** December 19, 2008, 11:19:44 AM »

Quote from: palos on December 19, 2008, 11:11:51 AM

The best local defensive midfielder I've ever seen is Christopher Birchall.

And he cyah get a run in a First Division English club team.

By the way....I believe Floyd Lawrence was the defensive mid on the Strike Squad, not Kerry Jamerson.

I was 10 years old during the strike squad days and I cannot remember Floyd Lawrence getting any consistent run in that side.