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Author Topic: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League  (Read 1393 times)

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Offline Filho

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The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« on: December 22, 2008, 01:47:25 PM »
I know we've kinda discussed this a few times, but it's often a lot of biased commentary based on which league is loved best. I cannot claim to be unbiased but I like the EPL, La Liga and Serie A and I don't have a history of being a 'hater' one way or the other..altho I do hate certain teams in each league. So here is my (hopefully unbiased) take on ONE FACTOR that I think contributes to the recent rise of the EPL in the Champion's League.

Let me first say that I am not even going to attempt to compare leagues. That is an exercise in futility as it requires some sort of complex analysis and initimate knowledge of just about every team in each league...and given relegation and promotion, your fomula requires tinkering every season. That, and everyone loves different things. Some factual..others, presonal preference. Second, I am doing my analysis in comparison of two other roughly comparable leagues in terms of CL success in the modern era - La Liga and Serie A.

In recent years, we see Liverpool, ManU, Chelsea and Arsenal look like good money to make the latter stages in the semifinals of the CL, and even win it. Imo, no other league has a top 4 that is that excellent and consistent in the competition today. More important and central to my theory is that no other league has a top 4. The fact that the same 4 EPL teams consistently play in the competition every year, means that there are the same 4 teams gaining valuable experience and the financial success required to build deeper CL-ready squads (independent of the superior financial health of the EPL).

Now take Spain. La liga only has a big two: Barca and Real Madrid. La Liga pretty much has a revolving 3rd or 4th place finisher: Villareal, Valencia, Atletico Madrid, Deportivo, Sevilla and even Betis have qualified for the CL. Call it inconsistency, or call it league parity, but Spain does not have a big 4. Because these teams don't consistently qualify for the CL, they never develop the experience, nor benefit from the big money the competition provides.

Now take Serie A. Prob. closest to the EPL in that you expect every season to see AC Milan, Inter and Juventus. It doesn't always happen but that's the general expectation. The fourth spot is a revolving door with Roma laying the closes claim to consistency in recent years. But you've had teams like Parma, Fiorentina, Udinese and Lazio (i think) all squeeze in. Again no consistency. So Serie A can claim to have a big 3. So in a way, one can say that the EPL big 4, La Liga big 2 and Italy big 3 should be roughly on par in any 90 minutes head to head.

Now lets say as an example 1 in each group has a tough year (not that big of a stretch imo.). You should still expect 3 from the EPL in the latter stages (QFs and/or  Semis), 1 from Spain, and 1 or 2 from Italy. Of course there is a lot more to it but I do think that if the same 4 teams qualify year after year for a competition, then you will have 4 teams that will consistently do well, and statistically even if 50% of the EPL big 4 screw up, you still have 2 teams that have a great chance of getting into the semis. For Spain to do that both Barca and Real Madrid have to be on top of their game which is statistically less likely. Same for Serie A (you can almost scratch out Inter as a perennial underachiever :devil:)

So what allyuh think? Is experience a substantial difference maker. Or is it because there is greater quality in the EPL top 4 in these last 3 or so years. Or maybe there are too many ingredients to even analyze it.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 01:53:53 PM by Filho »

Offline capodetutticapi

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Re: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 05:31:42 PM »
hard one to analyse but i'll put in meh 2 cents.de EPL de big 4,that is like de four horsemen,de calibre of these four teams will make it difficult fuh villa or everton or anybody to knock anyone dong to 5th place.so yuh almost certain at de end of de regular season,yuh guaranteed the four horsemen fill de top spots.la liga de top 2 barca and RM will be in de top 4 plus de other 2 teams that had a great season that year.yuh see only barca and real could stamp they authority in any given year.de other 2 spots is ah scramble fuh athletico or villareal or whoever to consistently be de cream of de crop.same fuh serie a.plus once yuh have an owner willin to spend and in it fuh de long haul yuh will see results.
soon ah go b ah lean mean bulling machine.

Offline Toppa

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Re: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 05:44:25 PM »
Ummm...
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Check it out - it real bad!

Offline kicker

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Re: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 06:09:21 PM »
There was a period in which English teams didn't show up in the CL as well as they have in recent years, and people generally chalked it up to a lack of quality- so to be fair, now that the EPL top 4 has had the best showing of all Europe in recent years- yuh just have to give dem the bligh and say that they're currently the strongest bunch in Europe, and by extension their league is the best in Europe as well- as factually unstable and as loose & inaccurate as that might be- it's a fair accolade to give when assessing something that yuh really can't prove out with certainty.  

If Madrid, Barcelona, Villarreal & Valencia were showing up in the CL competition as the EPL big four has done in the last few years, I doubt anyone would begrudge La liga as the best league in the world....same for Serie A if Milan, Inter, Juve & Lazio for eg were doing the same.  There is a stigma of obnoxiousness and lack of footballing sophistication that plagues the EPL and anything English in football that puts a damper on the actual facts and causes one to rain on their parade of achievements....

From my observation and in my humble opinion, in recent years the EPL big 4 has matched the quality (individually and team-wise) of any of the best teams in Europe and it is in the dept of fitness, intensity and overall pace that I think they've been able to secure the edge over the best on the continent... My one "semi knock" on the EPL is that compared to other leagues, as you go further down the table the style of football trends relatively more (than in Italy or Spain) toward the route one ugliness that has clouded the perception of English football historically....but that's just a matter of style and not necessarily quality.
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Offline dinho

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Re: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 06:30:12 PM »
Why extend the discussion to Champions league only?

What about UEFA cup?

because therein lies the strength of the other leagues against the EPL. It is rare for a team outside the EPL top 4 to threaten in the UEFA Cup. The likes of Everton/Spurs/Villa get consistently dealt with by the likes of Valencia/Sevilla/Espanyol or Fiorentina/Lazio/Sampdoria..  As Filho said in his first post, parity in the league is a considerable factor.

You have a good point about the value of European experience in the CL, which contributes to EPL teams recent successes. You get the feeling that no matter how poor Liverpool is playing in their league, they are a dangerous opponent in the CL. Likewise, Villareal's UEFA cup experience propelled them to CL semi finals in the following year.

Another thing to consider is that this whole Cup competition thing is a whole different dynamic and should not be used as a barometer of judging the best teams or leagues. Case in point, when Liverpool beat Inter Milan last year, would you say they were the better team or just the better team in a knockout format? If you were to have a true Champions League featuring the top teams playing in a 38 game season, would Liverpool finish over Inter Milan and Real Madrid?



         

Offline kicker

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Re: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 06:43:30 PM »

Another thing to consider is that this whole Cup competition thing is a whole different dynamic


good point...

Cup tournaments are more prone to fairytale performances than is the day in day out grind of a league competition.

But the World Champion is determined tournament style so why not assess the best club in the world by the same method...
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 06:51:57 PM by kicker »
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Offline jr sams

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Re: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2008, 08:23:05 AM »
This topic have some well thought out responses.
Here are some stats for the competition since inception in 55-56, as taken from wikipedia.
Three teams who have won the title more than once are unbeaten in the final Champion's League matches:
Manchester United, Nottingham Forrest and Porto.

Team                          Won     Runner Up 
 Real Madrid C.F.              9   3
 A.C. Milan                 7   4
 Liverpool F.C.              5   2
 FC Bayern Munich      4   3
 AFC Ajax                 4   2
 Manchester United F.C.   3   0
 S.L. Benfica         2   5
 Juventus F.C.         2   5
 FC Barcelona         2   3
 F.C. Internazionale Milano   2   2
Nottingham Forest F.C.   2   0
 F.C. Porto                 2   0

 Celtic F.C.                 1   1
 Hamburger SV              1   1
 FC Steaua Bucuresti      1   1
 Olympique de Marseille           1   1
 Feyenoord                 1   0
 Aston Villa F.C.              1   0
 PSV Eindhoven              1   0
 Red Star Belgrade      1   0
 BV Borussia Dortmund           1   0
 Stade Reims         0   2
 Valencia CF         0   2
 ACF Fiorentina              0   1
 Eintracht Frankfurt      0   1
 FK Partizan                 0   1
 Panathinaikos FC              0   1
 Atlético de Madrid      0   1
 Leeds United A.F.C.      0   1
 AS Saint-Étienne              0   1
 VfL Borussia Mönc.      0   1
 Club Brugge K.V.              0   1
 Malmö FF                 0   1
 A.S. Roma                 0   1
 U.C. Sampdoria              0   1
 Bayer 04 Leverkusen      0   1
 AS Monaco FC              0   1
 Arsenal F.C.         0   1
 Chelsea F.C.         0   1

Here are the stats by leagues:
Nation     Wins  Runs Up 
 Italy           11   14
 Spain   11   9
 England   11   5
 Germany   6   7
 Nether   6   2
 Portugal   4   5
 France   1   5
 Romania   1   1
 Yugoslavia   1   1
 Scotland   1   1
 Sweden   0   1
 Greece   0   1
 Belgium   0   1

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League

well yes

Offline Disgruntled_Trini

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Re: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2008, 09:48:34 AM »
This topic has too many variables to consider to reach an accurate conclusion.

What must be take into consideration, is that the big 4 in the EPL has only become the big 4 because of international players coming to the fore. If it was majority English based players I sincerely doubt they would be contenders.

I am no means an EPL fan for the same reason Omar brought up. Top 4 -5 games are good but after that the rest is shit. In La Liga you could watch a bottom half game and still see some semblance of a knock.

We also have to consider
Player retention - a player does good in a smaller club one season and he is bought by a bigger club the next e.g the revolving door that is Real Madrid.
One can ever argue that you need a bit of luck in the CL. Luck of the draw, luck with injuries and general all round ball falling at yuh feet luck i.e Man U.


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Offline kicker

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Re: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 11:00:38 AM »

What must be take into consideration, is that the big 4 in the EPL has only become the big 4 because of international players coming to the fore. If it was majority English based players I sincerely doubt they would be contenders.

You can say that about the top teams in any league.  Strip the internationals out of Barca, Madrid, Inter, Milan, for e.g. and yuh playing 3-a-side small goal, one goal come off...

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Offline kev

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Re: The EPL's rise in the Champion's League
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 11:18:39 AM »
It just down to money the players go where the money is for the most part its in the EPL so its no surprise that where a lot of good players end up.

If you look at the quality of some of the other leagues other than the big 3/4 its quite a way behind.

If you see some of the sides from Europe that make the UEFA Cup it makes the bottom half of the EPL look like Brazil. 

UEFA aren't happy the way things are being polarised even more than it has been in the past as it makes for a boring competition and hence going on about homegrown players etc trying to even it up.  But they want to have their cake and eat it, the league format and the draw suits/favours the big teams and countries, keeps them apart so UEFA are practically guaranteed a Glamour Final and the reason for this, you've guessed it money from TV rights.

 

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