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Offline Bakes

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2009, 05:44:39 PM »
In a nutshell-


The country israel was only formed in 1947.

That area (before 1947) has always been Palestine with Jews, Christians and muslims living there amongst each other for centuries .
----
The real turbulence started when a new country - Israel was formed within another country (palestine) with the backing of the west.
Due to Zionists belief that the borders of Israel must be extended is the cause of the constant occupations of land outside israel over the decades. Offcourse when u extend the borders, you are displacing people who were there before, just like they were displaced when the state of Israel was formed. Tell me that wont piss u off?

Now, the jews believe that their Messiah would only return to them when the temple of David is rebuilt in it original place. However, a mosque (masjid al aqsa) was rebuilt upon the old ruins of the temple of David. This mosque is a very important site to muslims.
So it is in SOME jews interest that this masjid be destroyed and their temple rebuilt.

It has been alleged that George bush (and other liek him) believes that "rapture" is imminent and that it should be helped along. Basically (as they believe it), rapture is the second coming of christ, to gather up all the christians and take them to heaven. The thing is, this cant happen unless the masjid al aqsa is destroyed and the temple of david rebuilt. Only then the antichrist will emerge and Jesus Christ will return.
( The jewish messiah would be taken to be the anti christ by non jews. Remember the jews rejected jesus as their messiah. SO if the temple is rebuilt and this causes their messiah to come, then this will also cause the return of jesus. )

That land called palestine, is very important and dear to the hearts of christians, Jews and Muslims.
This "battle" in palestine and Gaza goes very very deep.

Check your history again fella... what you're stating is incorrect.  Israel may not have existed in that place for centuries... but Israel WAS there before before the children of israel were scattered by warfare.  After WWII Jews were repatriated to their historical homeland and thus began the troubles.  Imagine if a band of Arawaks was to show up claiming TnT we'd all be in a tizzy... but doesn't mean that the Arawaks wouldn't have a right to lay claim to their historical land.

For this reason the land must be shared... and shared equally, Israel can't claim all the arable land and force the Palestinians onto a barren, overcrowded sliver as is the current arrangement.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Barack Obama's silence on Israel is damaging his reputation
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2009, 05:46:27 PM »
Obama is losing a battle he doesn't know he's inThe president-elect's silence on the Gaza crisis is undermining his reputation in the Middle East

Simon Tisdall
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 4 January 2009 15.55 GMT

Barack Obama's chances of making a fresh start in US relations with the Muslim world, and the Middle East in particular, appear to diminish with each new wave of Israeli attacks on Palestinian targets in Gaza. That seems hardly fair, given the president-elect does not take office until January 20. But foreign wars don't wait for Washington inaugurations.

Obama has remained wholly silent during the Gaza crisis. His aides say he is following established protocol that the US has only one president at a time. Hillary Clinton, his designated secretary of state, and Joe Biden, the vice-president-elect and foreign policy expert, have also been uncharacteristically taciturn on the subject.

But evidence is mounting that Obama is already losing ground among key Arab and Muslim audiences that cannot understand why, given his promise of change, he has not spoken out. Arab commentators and editorialists say there is growing disappointment at Obama's detachment - and that his failure to distance himself from George Bush's strongly pro-Israeli stance is encouraging the belief that he either shares Bush's bias or simply does not care.

The Al-Jazeera satellite television station recently broadcast footage of Obama on holiday in Hawaii, wearing shorts and playing golf, juxtaposed with scenes of bloodshed and mayhem in Gaza. Its report criticising "the deafening silence from the Obama team" suggested Obama is losing a battle of perceptions among Muslims that he may not realise has even begun.

"People recall his campaign slogan of change and hoped that it would apply to the Palestinian situation," Jordanian analyst Labib Kamhawi told Liz Sly of the Chicago Tribune. "So they look at his silence as a negative sign. They think he is condoning what happened in Gaza because he's not expressing any opinion."

Regional critics claim Obama is happy to break his pre-inauguration "no comment" rule on international issues when it suits him. They note his swift condemnation of November's terrorist attacks in Mumbai. Obama has also made frequent policy statements on mitigating the impact of the global credit crunch.

Obama's absence from the fray is also allowing hostile voices to exploit the vacuum. "It would appear that the president-elect has no intention of getting involved in the Gaza crisis," Iran's Resalat newspaper commented sourly. "His stances and viewpoints suggest he will follow the path taken by previous American presidents... Obama, too, will pursue policies that support the Zionist aggressions."

Whether Obama, when he does eventually engage, can successfully elucidate an Israel-Palestine policy that is substantively different from that of Bush-Cheney is wholly uncertain at present.

To maintain the hardline US posture of placing the blame for all current troubles squarely on Hamas, to the extent of repeatedly blocking limited UN security council ceasefire moves, would be to end all realistic hopes of winning back Arab opinion - and could have negative, knock-on consequences for US interests in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Gulf.

Yet if Obama were to take a tougher (some would say more balanced) line with Israel, for example by demanding a permanent end to its blockade of Gaza, or by opening a path to talks with Hamas, he risks provoking a rightwing backlash in Israel, giving encouragement to Israel's enemies, and losing support at home for little political advantage.

A recent Pew Research Centre survey, for example, showed how different are US perspectives to those of Europe and the Middle East. Americans placed "finding a solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict" at the bottom of a 12-issue list of foreign policy concerns, the poll found. And foreign policy is in any case of scant consequence to a large majority of US voters primarily worried about the economy, jobs and savings.

On the campaign trail, Obama (like Clinton) was broadly supportive of Israel and specifically condemnatory of Hamas. But at the same time, he held out the prospect of radical change in western relations with Muslims everywhere, promising to make a definitive policy speech in a "major Islamic forum" within 100 days of taking office.

"I will make clear that we are not at war with Islam, that we will stand with those who are willing to stand up for their future, and that we need their effort to defeat the prophets of hate and violence," he said.

As the Gaza casualty headcount goes up and Obama keeps his head down, those sentiments are beginning to sound a little hollow. The danger is that when he finally peers over the parapet on January 21, the battle of perceptions may already be half-lost.

guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2009


Obama's Muslim critics need to get a fukkin clue.

Offline D.H.W

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2009, 07:40:07 PM »
The secret life of Tzipi Livni
How the woman set to be Israel’s new leader earned her spurs as an agent working for a covert cell in an elite spy unit


Tzipi Livni worked in Paris when Mossad was fighting against Palestinian groups and the nuclear ambitions of Saddam Hussein

It is an eye-catching episode on the CV of any would-be prime minister: a dangerous, youthful stint as a spy in one of the world’s most respected and feared secret services.

True to her training, Tzipi Livni, the Israeli leader-in-waiting, has maintained a Sphinx-like silence about her Mossad career in Paris in the early 1980s. Consequently, reports on her service have pegged her as anything from a frontline agent hunting down Arab terrorists across Europe to a mere house-sitter deployed to provide a respectable front for Mossad safe houses in the French capital.

Mossad does not divulge details but The Times can reveal that Ms Livni ran substantial risks as an Israeli agent operating in a covert cell in Europe.

“She was in an elite unit,” said Ephraim Halevy, the former director of Mossad, who for security reasons declined to specify which outfit Ms Livni had served in between 1980 and 1984.

“She was a very promising agent who showed all the attributes of a very promising career. She was very well thought of.”

Ms Livni, a fluent French speaker and daughter of renowned Zionist guerrillas, served her time in Paris when the city was a deadly battle-ground in Mossad’s covert war with Palestinian militant groups and Saddam Hussein’s nuclear ambitions.

One Israeli former intelligence source told The Times that the 22-year-old Ms Livni had been recruited into Mossad after her National Service by a childhood friend, Mira Gal, who herself served for two decades in the agency and who now works as her ministry bureau chief.

Like many recruits, the source said, she would have started out with so-called “student jobs”, mostly maintaining safe houses that were used by hit squads and more senior agents on assignment across Europe. Mr Halevy said that even such a rookie job was not without its risks.

“I’m not saying she was a caretaker of safe houses but people think that being a caretaker is a simple and mundane job which entails no risk,” the English-born former spymaster told The Times. “People who say that don’t know what safe houses are about. It can be very dangerous at times.”

After her apprenticeship, Ms Livni went through basic training as a field officer, learning how to recruit agents and gather information at a time of huge upheaval among Israel’s foes, as the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) relocated from war-torn Beirut to the safer shores of Tunisia.

“It was a period when the Israelis were sending strong political messages with their attacks and they did not hesitate to attract attention,” Éric Denécé, a former French intelligence service agent, said.

“Since the Six-Day War [in 1967], Paris was an important intelligence base for Mossad - first, because it had excellent relations with the French services and also because so many Palestinians were based there.”

Israeli agents operating out of Paris carried out assassinations and were also widely believed to have infiltrated Palestinian factions. Among them was Ilich RamÍrez Sánchez, alias Carlos the Jackal, and the Abu Nidal splinter group. The group perpetrated the massacre of six people at Goldenberg’s restaurant in the rue des Rosiers in August 1982 and the bombing of the Paris-Toulouse express, which killed five, the same year.

There were two Mossad stations in Paris at the time, according to Roger Faligot, author of several books on the intelligence services. One covered France and the other Western Europe.

“I only heard about Tzipi Livni being an agent in Paris quite late in the day,” he told The Times. “At that period, Israel was appointing many female agents who were not just recruited from the armed forces but because of their languages and analytical skills. When you see Livni’s career, you would conclude that she was on the political and analytical side of Mossad.”

Mossad operators in Paris were also striving to thwart Saddam Hussein from developing an atomic arsenal and shipping nuclear fuels to his new processor at Osirak just outside Baghdad. In June 1980 an Egyptian-born scientist working on the Iraqi atomic programme was found murdered in his hotel room, a killing assumed to have been the handiwork of Mossad. A prostitute who heard voices coming from his room on the night of his murder was killed a month later in a mysterious hit-and-run accident. Menachem Begin, the Prime Minister at the time, said he hoped that France had “learnt its lesson” for helping Iraq. A year later Israeli bombers blew the Osirak plant to pieces.

One French report cited experts suggesting that Ms Livni was part of an elite unit that fatally poisoned the Iraqi nuclear scientist Abdul Rasul at a lunch in Paris in 1983. “The risks were tangible,” Ms Gal was to say of those days in Mossad. “If I made a mistake the result would be arrest and catastrophic political implications for Israel.”

The risks to Israelis working in Europe were brutally demonstrated in 1982 when an Abu Nidal gunman shot the Israeli Ambassador to London, Shlomo Argov, in the head, critically wounding him and triggering the full-scale invasion of southern Lebanon by the Jewish state to root out the PLO.

“It takes both courage and judgment to make the right decision at the right time,” Mr Halevy said. “You are jeopardising a whole team and can open up all sorts of other matters than go beyond the issue you are dealing with”.

Whatever the actual role Ms Livni played, Mr Halevy is convinced that her experience and training stand her in good stead for the tasks now at hand as she tries to build a consensus to govern Israel. He recalls seeing her in May 2003, when he was National Security Adviser, deploy her Mossad-honed analytical skills and tenacity in government, when, as a junior Cabinet member, she was the only minister to stand up to the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and point out key flaws on a complex security brief that had been dispatched hours before.

“This shows she knows what she is doing and is willing to stand up for it,” Mr Halevy said.

Underground war

- June 1980 head of Iraq’s nuclear programme, Yahia El-Meshad, is murdered in his Paris hote, assumed to be a victim of a Mossad hit team. Prime Minister Menachem Begin tells a journalist that he hoped France “had learnt its lesson” for helping Iraq.

- June 1981 Israel bombs a French-built nuclear reactor in Iraq, killing a French specialist. Mossad involvement is suspected.

- April 1979 explosion at CNIM Industries plant in La Seyne-sur-Mer damages nuclear reactor destined for Iraq. Mossad is suspected.

- October 1980 car bomb explodes outside a Paris synagogue killing four people

- August 1982 six people die and 22 are wounded when five men with machine guns and grenades open fire in Paris Jewish deli

Sources: Le Figaro, BBC, Time, Reuters

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4791158.ece
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Offline pecan

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2009, 08:43:14 AM »
I have been listening to talk radio this morning discussing the Gaza / Israel situation.

I am trying real hard to be objective and listening to both sides of the debate.  But so far, the anti-Israel proponents seem to rely on weak and emotional arguments to make their case.  They seem to respond to direct challenges to their statements and positions by giving evasive answers without answering the question.

The pro-Israel arguments tend to resort to hyperbole as well, but on balance, they seem to present a more lucid argument.

I am just happy I have not grown up in that culture of hostility and hate.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline JDB

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2009, 09:03:00 AM »
It is an insoluble problem.

All the Palestinians need to look at for justification is their dead friends, family and compatriots and the fact that they are faced with a vastly more powerful opponent and recieve little help. It spurs them to fight to the death and no half measures can be considered.

All the Isrealis need to look at for justification is dead friends, family and compatriots and the fear that they are surrounded by an entire region that would wipe them out in a second if circumstances permitted. It spurs them to fight to the death and no half measures can be considered.

Their is no hope for objectivity from either side and thinking about how it started or measuring who do more evil is pointless. All the current combatants know is the situation that they inherit. Any of the compromises that have been settled upon ultimately is unsatisfactory to both sides because they would love to see the other side gone completely.
THE WARRIORS WILL NOT BE DENIED.

truetrini

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2009, 10:17:35 AM »
Israel real nasty doh.  One jes has to look at the atrocities committed in Jenin.



The US news due to the heavy Jewish lobby dummies down the news reports getting out of the middle east.

Israeli soldiers often maim young Palestinians to Prevent them from becoming suicide bombers, akin to Bush's preemptive strike rationale.



Read this report:

[urlhttp://www.canadazone.com/palestine/20020501.htm][/url]

Offline pecan

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2009, 03:17:01 PM »
It is an insoluble problem.

All the Palestinians need to look at for justification is their dead friends, family and compatriots and the fact that they are faced with a vastly more powerful opponent and recieve little help. It spurs them to fight to the death and no half measures can be considered.

All the Isrealis need to look at for justification is dead friends, family and compatriots and the fear that they are surrounded by an entire region that would wipe them out in a second if circumstances permitted. It spurs them to fight to the death and no half measures can be considered.

Their is no hope for objectivity from either side and thinking about how it started or measuring who do more evil is pointless. All the current combatants know is the situation that they inherit. Any of the compromises that have been settled upon ultimately is unsatisfactory to both sides because they would love to see the other side gone completely.

yep

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline pecan

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2009, 03:17:49 PM »
Israel real nasty doh.  One jes has to look at the atrocities committed in Jenin.



The US news due to the heavy Jewish lobby dummies down the news reports getting out of the middle east.

Israeli soldiers often maim young Palestinians to Prevent them from becoming suicide bombers, akin to Bush's preemptive strike rationale.



Read this report:

[urlhttp://www.canadazone.com/palestine/20020501.htm][/url]

Both sides are not without blame.  But given a choice, I would rather live under Israeli occupation than Hamas occupation.  At least Israel has the trappings of a democracy and all religions appear to have a modicum of freedom in Israel unlike so many Arab states.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

truetrini

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2009, 05:50:02 PM »
Pecan, Israel is for Israelis only...take a gander at their flag!

In sweet T&T there is an area in Diego Martin called Golda Meir Gardens.  That was a Jewish enclave.  Many here have no idea about that.  People like Hans Stecher of the Stechers jewelery fame etc. were all there.

When local Jews met the Zionist leaders from the newly founded Israel and boasted that we had such a place in Trinidad, they responded:  "We want you in Israel and there you can name a p0lace in Isreal after Trinidadian heroes  (paraphrasing).

Dem eh like nobody but Jews fella, their tolerance is VERY limited, they allow outsiders who can help supplement their menial labour deficiencies.

Doh get tied up.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2009, 06:03:29 PM »
n e 1 here releated to
George Gershwin
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline Deeks

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2009, 06:08:10 PM »
We can blame Israel all we want, we cant blame the Palestinians, the  same for the USA and the Euros. But one of these days one of them (Jews or Arabs) with will drop a bomb(by a bomb, all yuh should know what I mean) and all hell will break loose(God forgive). There must be a settlement. This thing has been going on too long. Sometimes I does wonder out loud(this may sound blasphemous). Lord, what you waiting on, you ain't tired seeing people getting killed.  You feel powerless to help both sides!!!!

Offline capodetutticapi

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2009, 09:14:40 PM »
hugo chavez is de hardest,he order israel embassy to close and de israelis out of vene.
soon ah go b ah lean mean bulling machine.

Offline dinho

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2009, 02:49:01 PM »
They overdoing de fleckin ting now!  >:(


Israeli forces shell UN headquarters in Gaza

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090115/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel shelled the United Nations headquarters in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, engulfing the compound and a warehouse in fire and destroying thousands of pounds of food and humanitarian supplies intended for Palestinian refugees.

Another Israeli bombardment on Thursday killed the Hamas security chief.

U.N. workers and Palestinian firefighters, some wearing bulletproof jackets, struggled to douse the flames and pull bags of food from the debris after the Israeli attack, which was another blow to efforts to ease the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip. Dense smoke billowed from the compound.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, who is in the region to end the devastating offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers, demanded a "full explanation" and said the Israeli defense minister told him there had been a "grave mistake."

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the military fired artillery shells at the U.N. compound after Hamas militants opened fire from the location. Three people were wounded.

"It is absolutely true that we were attacked from that place, but the consequences are very sad and we apologize for it," he said. "I don't think it should have happened and I'm very sorry."

Interior Minister Said Siam was killed in an Israeli airstrike that flattened a home in Gaza City. Israel and Hamas both confirmed the death of Siam, who oversaw thousands of security agents and was considered to be among the militant group's top five leaders in Gaza.

Even as a top Israeli envoy went to Egypt to discuss a cease-fire proposal, the military pushed farther into Gaza in an apparent effort to step up pressure on Hamas. Ground forces thrust deep into a crowded neighborhood for the first time, sending terrified residents fleeing for cover. Shells also struck a hospital, five high-rise apartment buildings and a building housing media outlets in Gaza City, injuring several journalists.

Bullets also entered another building housing The Associated Press offices, entering a room where two staffers were working but wounding no one. The Foreign Press Association, representing journalists covering Israel and the Palestinian territories, demanded a halt to attacks on press buildings.

The army had collected the locations of media organizations at the outset of fighting to avoid such attacks.

In Washington, the Bush administration was racing in its final days to negotiate a last-minute deal on American support for Egyptian-led truce mediation efforts under which the U.S. would provide technical support and expertise to prevent Hamas from re-arming, said U.S. and Israeli diplomats.

It was not immediately clear if members of President-elect Barack Obama's or Secretary of State-designate Hillary Rodham Clinton transition teams were being advised of the talks, which could lead to a prominent and ongoing U.S. role in the truce.

The diplomats spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the negotiations.

Israel launched its war on Dec. 27 in an effort to stop militant rocket fire from Gaza that has terrorized hundreds of thousands of Israelis. Some 1,100 Palestinians have been killed, roughly half of them civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian medical officials. Gaza health official Dr. Moaiya Hassanain said at least 70 people were killed or died of wounds throughout Gaza on Thursday.

Thirteen Israelis also have been killed since the campaign began. Israel says it will press ahead until Hamas halts the rocket fire and stops smuggling weapons into Gaza from neighboring Egypt.

Israeli police said 20 rockets hit southern Israel on Thursday, injuring 10 people. Five of the wounded were in a car that was struck in the city of Beersheba.

The U.N. compound struck Thursday houses the U.N. Works and Relief Agency, which distributes food aid to hundreds of thousands of destitute Gazans in the tiny seaside territory of 1.4 million people.

"I conveyed my strong protest and outrage to the defense minister and foreign minister and demanded a full explanation," said Ban, who arrived in Israel on Thursday morning from Egypt.

It had only that morning become a makeshift shelter for 700 Gaza City residents seeking sanctuary from relentless Israeli shelling, U.N. officials in Gaza said.

John Ging, director of UNRWA operations in Gaza, said the attack at the compound caused a "massive explosion" that wounded three people.

A senior Israeli military officer said troops opened fire after militants inside the compound shot anti-tank weapons and machine guns. The officer spoke on condition of anonymity pending a formal army announcement later in the day.

Ging, who was in the compound at the time, dismissed the Israeli account as "nonsense."

Israeli shells first hit the courtyard filled with refugees, then struck garages and the U.N.'s main warehouse, sending thousands of tons of food aid up in flames, Ging said. Later, fuel supplies went up in flames, sending a thick black plume of smoke into the air.

"It's a total disaster for us," Ging said, adding that the U.N. had warned the Israeli military that the compound was in peril from shelling that had begun overnight. U.N. officials say they have provided Israel with GPS coordinates of all U.N. installations in Gaza to prevent such attacks.

The refugees were moved to a school away from the immediate fighting, he said.

Separately, Israel shells landed next to a U.N. school in another Gaza City neighborhood, wounding 14 people who had sought sanctuary there, medics and firefighters said.

An Israeli attack near a U.N. school in northern Gaza earlier this month killed nearly 40 people. At the time, Israel said militants had fired on army positions from the beginning.

Barzak reported from Gaza City; Teibel from Jerusalem. Associated Press writers Karin Laub and Ian Deitch in Jerusalem, Sarah El Deeb in Cairo, and Mattew Lee in Washington contributed to this report.
         

Offline kounty

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2009, 03:46:54 PM »
In a nutshell-


The country israel was only formed in 1947.

That area (before 1947) has always been Palestine with Jews, Christians and muslims living there amongst each other for centuries .
----
The real turbulence started when a new country - Israel was formed within another country (palestine) with the backing of the west.
Due to Zionists belief that the borders of Israel must be extended is the cause of the constant occupations of land outside israel over the decades. Offcourse when u extend the borders, you are displacing people who were there before, just like they were displaced when the state of Israel was formed. Tell me that wont piss u off?

Now, the jews believe that their Messiah would only return to them when the temple of David is rebuilt in it original place. However, a mosque (masjid al aqsa) was rebuilt upon the old ruins of the temple of David. This mosque is a very important site to muslims.
So it is in SOME jews interest that this masjid be destroyed and their temple rebuilt.

It has been alleged that George bush (and other liek him) believes that "rapture" is imminent and that it should be helped along. Basically (as they believe it), rapture is the second coming of christ, to gather up all the christians and take them to heaven. The thing is, this cant happen unless the masjid al aqsa is destroyed and the temple of david rebuilt. Only then the antichrist will emerge and Jesus Christ will return.
( The jewish messiah would be taken to be the anti christ by non jews. Remember the jews rejected jesus as their messiah. SO if the temple is rebuilt and this causes their messiah to come, then this will also cause the return of jesus. )

That land called palestine, is very important and dear to the hearts of christians, Jews and Muslims.
This "battle" in palestine and Gaza goes very very deep.

Check your history again fella... what you're stating is incorrect.  Israel may not have existed in that place for centuries... but Israel WAS there before before the children of israel were scattered by warfare.  After WWII Jews were repatriated to their historical homeland and thus began the troubles.  Imagine if a band of Arawaks was to show up claiming TnT we'd all be in a tizzy... but doesn't mean that the Arawaks wouldn't have a right to lay claim to their historical land.

For this reason the land must be shared... and shared equally, Israel can't claim all the arable land and force the Palestinians onto a barren, overcrowded sliver as is the current arrangement.
clearly we on different sides and I'll try to disagree respectfully...but in the history of that land, how many years did the Jews control it (lets be real enough to realize that this isn't about any other semite, bedouin or other indigenous group controlling the land...this is about jews...and no don't pull the "antisemmitic" card on me we not in the 50's or 60's anymore )?  did the jews not choose to move to yemen and iran and spain and throughout europe in search of a better life for milennia (commenting specifically about the"children" being scattered by warfare)? what was preventing them from staying in "israel"?  I think a better example of "repatriation" than your Arawak example (jus based on number of years of control issue), would be if we as Black people choosing to live in the west cor a thousand years, suddenly when sh!t hit the fan over here decide we going and take over some part of Africa, in fact, why not the whole of it.
anyway, I think sammy had a very good post.  and the post on obama's silence, I think that was very very good also, cuz to me Obama's silence is deafening and I feel like he is a big fraud...and I am not muslim.  I am not american, my wife doesn't follow politics so she asked me who to vote for,a nd I didn't believe in obama until he gave the speech by the berlin wall, and after that I told her vote for him, but now I feel hurt, and disappointed (I'll wait a little while longer). 
In context Israel is saying that this is to stop rocket firing into israel, both my wife and her brother lived in isreal for a couple years each and they go through the stories of what happens when rockets are coming into israel.  in short, it is harmless.  everybody is notified way in advance, and every building has a bunker or basement built to withstand the small rockets fired and even larger ones.
now how can people come here and support the slaughtering of 333 plus CHILDREN (no not the poor "children of israel"), babies...innocent ones - to prevent rocketfire into israel  (I know somebody should shoot you dead next time you jaywalk )
in case you didn't know (I have a strong hunch you do) the real issue is that Christians in the US (just listen to rhetoric and you can identify who they are) have a fundamental belief (based on their reading the Bible) that the land belongs to the Jews, and forget right wrong or indifferent the US is going to support Israel.  Compound that that Israel is like a huge US army base (that they don't even have to pay for or fund...LOTTO!!!) in the middle of the most hostile region in the world to americans then you have the the US is always going to support Israel no matter what.
so don't come here and try to twist all kinda fancy thing about who is right and this is why we are right, because there is a clear side that is right here...standing on moral ground.  So please let the man talk about Obama's silence being deafening...I still listening.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2009, 05:13:01 PM »

clearly we on different sides and I'll try to disagree respectfully...but in the history of that land, how many years did the Jews control it (lets be real enough to realize that this isn't about any other semite, bedouin or other indigenous group controlling the land...this is about jews...and no don't pull the "antisemmitic" card on me we not in the 50's or 60's anymore )?  did the jews not choose to move to yemen and iran and spain and throughout europe in search of a better life for milennia (commenting specifically about the"children" being scattered by warfare)? what was preventing them from staying in "israel"?  I think a better example of "repatriation" than your Arawak example (jus based on number of years of control issue), would be if we as Black people choosing to live in the west cor a thousand years, suddenly when sh!t hit the fan over here decide we going and take over some part of Africa, in fact, why not the whole of it.
anyway, I think sammy had a very good post.  and the post on obama's silence, I think that was very very good also, cuz to me Obama's silence is deafening and I feel like he is a big fraud...and I am not muslim.  I am not american, my wife doesn't follow politics so she asked me who to vote for,a nd I didn't believe in obama until he gave the speech by the berlin wall, and after that I told her vote for him, but now I feel hurt, and disappointed (I'll wait a little while longer). 
In context Israel is saying that this is to stop rocket firing into israel, both my wife and her brother lived in isreal for a couple years each and they go through the stories of what happens when rockets are coming into israel.  in short, it is harmless.  everybody is notified way in advance, and every building has a bunker or basement built to withstand the small rockets fired and even larger ones.
now how can people come here and support the slaughtering of 333 plus CHILDREN (no not the poor "children of israel"), babies...innocent ones - to prevent rocketfire into israel  (I know somebody should shoot you dead next time you jaywalk )
in case you didn't know (I have a strong hunch you do) the real issue is that Christians in the US (just listen to rhetoric and you can identify who they are) have a fundamental belief (based on their reading the Bible) that the land belongs to the Jews, and forget right wrong or indifferent the US is going to support Israel.  Compound that that Israel is like a huge US army base (that they don't even have to pay for or fund...LOTTO!!!) in the middle of the most hostile region in the world to americans then you have the the US is always going to support Israel no matter what.
so don't come here and try to twist all kinda fancy thing about who is right and this is why we are right, because there is a clear side that is right here...standing on moral ground.  So please let the man talk about Obama's silence being deafening...I still listening.

I'm really not sure how to make heads or tails of this rambling incoherent diatribe... but clearly you have some very strong anti-Jewish (anti-Israeli bias at least) resident within you.

No amount of revisionist history can cast the expulsion of the Jews from Israel/Palestine as voluntary... try as hard as you may.  Jews didn't "choose to move to yemen and iran and spain and throughout europe in search of a better life for milennia" not sure where you're getting that from.  In fact the Jews were first expelled from Jerusalem by the Romans in the 5th Century, and for the next 1400 years continued to be shuffled along like dust in the wind by other Roman, Muslim and Christian invaders.  In fact because many Jews enjoyed relatively benign treatment under the muslims, Jews actually fought alongside their muslim rulers against Christians during the first Crusade.  So not having a home in Jerusalem they took up residence wherever they could, being that they were Roman citizens, following the fall of Rome that resulted in them being scattered throughout Europe.  None of it was the result of voluntary migration from Jerusalem as you insinuate.  Eventually persecution in Europe had them once again on the run, as evidenced by their eviction from Andalusia when Spain finally took it back from Moorish control in 1492.  The date should ring a bell.

I can go on and on documenting for you how the Jews ended up in Europe... and how they ended up back in Palestine, that is both their ancestral and historical homeland, there's no question about it.  The question then becomes not whether Jews belong there, but how the land should be shared, because the present-day Palestinians have every much a right to the land as the repatriated Jews of the last 60 yrs.

I won't even bother go into detail responding to the rest of your diatribe because frankly none of it relates to anything that I said, and has only marginal relation to the actual discussion at hand.

Offline kounty

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2009, 05:41:12 PM »
thanks...very strong anti jewish sentiment ...lol. didn't see that coming.
so the ever reliable wiki here show us some of the timeline:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Jerusalem
you'd be hard-pressed to disprove that once under muslim rule (ie the hugest fraction of the whole time), that nothing prevented Jews from being there.
at the very least you are willing to say that the palestinians have at least the same amount of right to be there (a start) which is good.  we could agree on that.
of course don't bother to comment on the proportionality of the air raids (the topic of the thread).  which anti-jew started this thread anyway?!?

Offline Bakes

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2009, 06:26:54 PM »
thanks...very strong anti jewish sentiment ...lol. didn't see that coming.
so the ever reliable wiki here show us some of the timeline:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Jerusalem
you'd be hard-pressed to disprove that once under muslim rule (ie the hugest fraction of the whole time), that nothing prevented Jews from being there.
at the very least you are willing to say that the palestinians have at least the same amount of right to be there (a start) which is good.  we could agree on that.
of course don't bother to comment on the proportionality of the air raids (the topic of the thread).  which anti-jew started this thread anyway?!?

Actually the "hugest fraction of the whole" there were Jews still in Jerusalem and Palestine... their numbers were great relative to the majority population (muslims) but the presence itself was never totally relinquished.  What prevented the expelled Jews from returning?  Well the answer to that is obvious... where were they to return to?  The muslim majority may have tolerated a minority jewish presence among their midst but do you seriously think that they'd welcome a mass re-patriation without conflict?  Where would the muslim residents go, in order to accommodate the returning Jews?  Somebody would have to be displaced, no?

So no.. I wouldn't be hard-pressed to disprove that they were prevented from returning at all, it's actually pretty easy to prove what prevented their return.

As for your comment that "at least (I'm) willing to say that the palestinians have at least the same amount of right to be there (a start)."  I've actually said that all along... or did you not properly read the post which you quoted?

Quote
For this reason the land must be shared... and shared equally, Israel can't claim all the arable land and force the Palestinians onto a barren, overcrowded sliver as is the current arrangement.

My position has always been decidedly centrist... there has to be a solution for peaceful coexistence.


As for the disproportionality of the Israeli response... I saw no need to comment on it because that has never been in dispute.  That would be like me commenting on the blue color of the sky... kind redundant I think.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 06:29:47 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline kounty

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2009, 09:33:43 AM »
cool...so we almost totally agree then.  so what is the clue that Obama's muslim critics need to get? what is your take on Obamas silence and the blocking of UN resolutions by the US all these years?

Offline Bakes

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2009, 10:41:09 AM »
cool...so we almost totally agree then.  so what is the clue that Obama's muslim critics need to get? what is your take on Obamas silence and the blocking of UN resolutions by the US all these years?

Obama has been consistent all along... there can only be one President at a time.  I know it's beginning to sound like a mantra, but more than just mere protocol or adherence to tradition demands it.  The US has to speak with one voice... you can't have the Bush Administration saying one thing, and Obama contradicting their policy... it's still Bush show for another couple days.  Imagine if your landlord forcing you to leave yuh residence... but before yuh even move out the new replacement come in and start painting wall and telling you when tuh burn electricity and how much hot water to use.  Not nice, right?

From a more practical standpoint... 4 yrs from now... or maybe 8, it will Obama sitting in Bush's position and I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate the incoming President acting boldface and speaking over his policies.  What this would tell the world is "doh listen to he, he moving out juss now... just do whatever allyuh feel and when I take charge we go talk about it".

That is a dangerous precedent to set.  One President at a time, one voice at a time.










...just imagine, up until 80 yrs ago the Inauguration was held on March 20th.

Offline Deeks

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2009, 04:08:20 PM »
Bakes, I agree with you. I could not present it any better.

Offline kounty

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2014, 02:11:55 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28279562
Even though the headline seems to point to more of the same (trying to paint the conflict as though 2 sides are on equal or nearly equal footing), the video at least show some of what is going on. please speak out whenever anyone asks you.

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2014, 04:01:59 PM »
Shocking evil perpetrated by the Israeli government. Rag-tag Islamists shoot primitive rockets, so they jet-rocket a disabled hospitable? Disgraceful behaviour

Offline Jumbie

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2014, 04:09:32 PM »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2014, 04:13:36 PM »

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2014, 04:15:59 PM »
Shocking evil perpetrated by the Israeli government. Rag-tag Islamists shoot primitive rockets, so they jet-rocket a disabled hospitable? Disgraceful behaviour
These people epitomizes evil . They  killed the son of god and killin defenseless  Palestinian women and children comes  easy for  dem
 They are indeed from the synagogue  of Satan  ..
 They keep on threatenin  Iran  but they dare not attack that country  as they would be in the words  of Ahmadinejad..   be wiped off from the face  of the earth

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2014, 04:20:20 PM »
Shocking evil perpetrated by the Israeli government. Rag-tag Islamists shoot primitive rockets, so they jet-rocket a disabled hospitable? Disgraceful behaviour
These people epitomizes evil . They  killed the son of god and killin defenseless  Palestinian women and children comes  easy for  dem
 They are indeed from the synagogue  of Satan  ..
 They keep on threatenin  Iran  but they dare not attack that country  as they would be in the words  of Ahmadinejad..   be wiped off from the face  of the earth

Depending on which gospel you read - was it the Romans or the Jews? Jesus himself was a Jew, so it seems a bit strange to blame them.

Offline Ramgoat

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2014, 04:33:44 PM »
 Then they had others to do their murderous work  but now they are doing it themselves.
 I guess they were using the Roman Empire   in much the same way as they are using the American Empire now
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 04:36:54 PM by Ramgoat »

Offline Tiresais

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2014, 04:40:43 PM »
Then they had others to do their murderous work then but now they are doing it themselves.
 I guess they were using the Roman Empire   in much the same way as they are using the American Empire now

Well that's just ridiculous. Whilst an Atheist myself, I suggest you read the bible - the Jews are clearly made out to be God's chosen people on numerous occasions, so you have a moral quandary for yourself, that such chosen people would act in such a way. At the end of the day though, how could the Jews force the Romans (ostensibly their oppressors) to take an action not in accordance with their own wishes?

Ramgoat you've generally shown a strongly religious side to yourself, have you read the bible extensively? It's hard to put across a point without sounding judgemental, but please take this in a better way than it can possibly sound in cold black text. I ask because a number of religious people I converse with take their pastor's word, or otherwise haven't read the bible (I had a conversation with a strongly Christian lady who didn't know there were two different orderings of creation in Genesis, for example)

Offline Toppa

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2014, 01:34:47 PM »
The Israel-Palestine conflict is the saddest thing of the modern era. They just want to kill them all - it's ethnic cleansing - genocide - and no-one has the will to stop it.
www.westindiantube.com

Check it out - it real bad!

Offline kaliman2006

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Re: Massive Israeli air raids on Gaza
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2014, 03:19:40 PM »
This continual saga of death and destruction in the Middle East would definitely bolster an atheist's argument (and I believe in a Supreme Power).

Scriptures in the wrong hands could be a dangerous weapon.

 

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