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Offline dinho

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Football nuances
« on: January 06, 2009, 11:08:38 PM »
this is a thread about the finer points in the game..

what are some of the smaller highlights you notice watching games?

for example, a friend ask me the question..

If you look at two identical players; one from Brazil and one from Argentina but you are not told who is from where.. How can you tell?

He said argentine players generally trap and control the ball with their heel while Brazilians trap and control with their instep.

One small thing I notice about Trinidad players is that when you play a ball to them, they hardly ever let the ball run. They have to trap first and keep the ball close, before they do something with it..

Also, Trinidadian defenders hardly ever rush in to attacking players but prefer to give them room and close down space. I suspect this is a 'beat avoidance' mentality inculcated from small goal..
         

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2009, 01:49:25 AM »
Cyd And Avery doh close down no space.

Players who fraid to tackle are usually technically deficient!

Offline Blue

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2009, 01:54:51 AM »
1. Trinis cannot trap a ball.

2. Trinis cannot head a ball.

Offline just cool

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 02:08:21 AM »
this is a thread about the finer points in the game..

what are some of the smaller highlights you notice watching games?

for example, a friend ask me the question..

If you look at two identical players; one from Brazil and one from Argentina but you are not told who is from where.. How can you tell?

He said argentine players generally trap and control the ball with their heel while Brazilians trap and control with their instep.

One small thing I notice about Trinidad players is that when you play a ball to them, they hardly ever let the ball run. They have to trap first and keep the ball close, before they do something with it..

Also, Trinidadian defenders hardly ever rush in to attacking players but prefer to give them room and close down space. I suspect this is a 'beat avoidance' mentality inculcated from small goal..

great observation trincity, it's rare yuh see ah T&T baller play the ball on the run, they alway have to slow down the play by collecting and turning.
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Offline Gladman

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2009, 07:07:30 AM »
Its funny how trinis have trouble trappin ball,cause if u pass by any team training or coaching school on any given day ,u see them practicin to trap d ball, control and pass.Somehow when dey meet in a game situation dey jus 4get how to do it. Is we culture ;D
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Offline weary1969

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2009, 08:22:06 AM »
1. Trinis cannot trap a ball.

2. Trinis cannot head a ball.

Rangers did not get d memo because Dog was hired for he ability 2 head d ball. Not 2 mention d man have a DVD teachn man how 2 head d ball. So d rest of d Trinis need 2 get dat DVD.
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Offline arrow

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 09:04:54 AM »
1. Trinis cannot trap a ball.

2. Trinis cannot head a ball.

3. Trinis cannot pass a ball.

4. Trinis cannot shoot a ball.

Actually what CAN Trinis do?

Offline weary1969

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2009, 09:08:05 AM »
1. Trinis cannot trap a ball.

2. Trinis cannot head a ball.

3. Trinis cannot pass a ball.

4. Trinis cannot shoot a ball.

Actually what CAN Trinis do?

Happy New Year keep it up this yr.
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Offline Disgruntled_Trini

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2009, 09:13:04 AM »

Actually what CAN Trinis do?


Drinking rum by the bar.


For me, when I watching club football I somehow watch the moving billboards on the side.


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Offline kicker

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2009, 09:48:21 AM »
Some stylistic nuances I've seen from a team perspective

Trinidad- poor first touch, limited kicking technique & very very little aggressive off the ball movement.

Brazil- relatively slow ball movement until the attacking third, more than average use of the outside of the foot to pass the ball, central defenders with above average foot skills.  Seem to smile more than the average team.

Argentina- rapid ball movement and high pressure midfield.  Skilful dribblers who never seem to rely on extravagant individual moves.

Germany- Tall defenders, short midfielders and tall forwards... Defenders are quick to go to ground with their studs up, never overpass the ball...shoot on sight.

Mexico- Use of the wall pass/give & go/1-2 and 3-man combo more than any other team I've observed, prone to overpassing the ball.

Italy- greasy, hairy, sulking & complaining.

England- dangerous balls always come in from the wide areas... hardly ever have an effective dribbler, and link up play between strikers in close spaces is almost non-existent.  High energy, and almost nervous looking at times.
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Offline Filho

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2009, 09:51:30 AM »
- Where did the Brazilian creative central midfielder go? Diego is the only recognized player of this mold right now and he can't see his way on the national team. Before him was Alex who also had a spotty international  career at senior level. Juninho Pernambucano didn't get too many chances and retired from the national team in frustration. Juninho Paulista was a little more successful but Big Phil relegated him to the bench in WC 2002 when they got to the business end of the tournament. Remember Giovani WC 98? Rai WC 94? Is Socrates the last really world class attacking central midfielder from Brazil? All the class "#10s" now are from Rivaldo to Dinho to Kaka are hybrid forwards..In my gut, I feel Anderson of ManU is perfect for the position, but he is being convereted into more of defensive midfielder. Wait..actually, Brazil does have ine truly world clsss player in that position...but he plays or Portugal. Is it a question of available talent? Change in philosophy? Both?

- Argentina and the disappearance of the traditional #9. It's been gradual, but over the past decade, Argentina has been showing a much greater preference for mobile, versatile forwards with low centers of gravity like Saviola, Tevez, Messi, Kun, Lavezzi etc. The pipeline of payers like Kempes, Luque, Valdano, Batigol, Canniggia, Balbo, Crespo...hasn't disappeared, but it relatively dry compared to days gone by. Are the only truly recognizable traditional #9s Crespo, Milito and Cruz..none of which seem to be key to Argentina at the moment. Even Higuain at RM who isn't exactly small is not a RVN, Huntelaar type forward? Remember Maxi Lopez, ex-Barca, now at Moscow. He was supposed to be one for the future. Again..is it a question of available talent? Change in philosophy? Both?

« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 10:24:59 AM by Filho »

Offline Blue

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2009, 01:19:46 PM »
3. For a Trini, The Spanner is the holy grail of football. A good spanner is worth at least 1.5 goals and should be celebrated as such

Offline Blue

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2009, 01:21:49 PM »
- Where did the Brazilian creative central midfielder go? Diego is the only recognized player of this mold right now and he can't see his way on the national team. Before him was Alex who also had a spotty international  career at senior level. Juninho Pernambucano didn't get too many chances and retired from the national team in frustration. Juninho Paulista was a little more successful but Big Phil relegated him to the bench in WC 2002 when they got to the business end of the tournament. Remember Giovani WC 98? Rai WC 94? Is Socrates the last really world class attacking central midfielder from Brazil? All the class "#10s" now are from Rivaldo to Dinho to Kaka are hybrid forwards..In my gut, I feel Anderson of ManU is perfect for the position, but he is being convereted into more of defensive midfielder. Wait..actually, Brazil does have ine truly world clsss player in that position...but he plays or Portugal. Is it a question of available talent? Change in philosophy? Both?

Phil Vickery wrote about this in his BBC column a few months ago. Cant remember what the reason he gave was tho  :D

Offline dinho

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2009, 01:26:13 PM »
when i see some bicycle kick, flick and acrobatics men does drop down in game, i does wonder if men does actually work on it in practice...

like i wonder if coach does tell ronaldinho to take a half hour to work on he bicycle or if it does just come natural.
         

Offline kicker

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 01:32:43 PM »
when i see some bicycle kick, flick and acrobatics men does drop down in game, i does wonder if men does actually work on it in practice...

like i wonder if coach does tell ronaldinho to take a half hour to work on he bicycle or if it does just come natural.

Just now flew back in from Brazil yesterday- ppl on Ipanema beach bicyclin' ball normal in a game of "keep up"... keep up (in a group of 4 or 5 in a circle keeping the ball up in the air) is a common beach game and everyone I see playing it (including a significant number of girls- hot ones too), has above average keep up skill....wouldn't doubt that Ronaldinho was and still is a boss at that... 
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Offline NUFF

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2009, 01:36:17 PM »
My observation is that these nuances between countries you mention are slowly disappearing.  The reason for this is the internationalization of the game.  The best players in the world are bought at younger and younger ages by the big clubs in Europe.  This means that they are moulded in basically the same style of football.  Look at the way Brazil play today and go back and look at a game with Brazil from the eighties and you will see the difference.  The last time I see what we know as "Brazilian football"  was in 1990.  

Look at England today and England before the 90's.  England used to be known as a long ball team but they don't really play like that anymore.  There are very few teams today that you can say really have a distinct style of football.  

If you want proof that players styles change in Europe look at Dwight Yorke when he played for the strike squad and look how his game changed after he went to England.  We can see the same transformation taking place with Kenwyne Jones.  Compare young Ronaldinho with Ronaldinho today and is de same thing.

Offline dinho

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2009, 01:37:17 PM »
My observation is that these nuances between countries you mention are slowly disappearing.  The reason for this is the internationalization of the game.  The best players in the world are bought at younger and younger ages by the big clubs in Europe.  This means that they are moulded in basically the same style of football.  Look at the way Brazil play today and go back and look at a game with Brazil from the eighties and you will see the difference.  The last time I see what we know as "Brazilian football"  was in 1990. 

Look at England today and England before the 90's.  England used to be known as a long ball team but they don't really play like that anymore.  There are very few teams today that you can say really have a distinct style of football. 

If you want proof that players styles change in Europe look at Dwight Yorke when he played for the strike squad and look how his game changed after he went to England.  We can see the same transformation taking place with Kenwyne Jones.  Compare young Ronaldinho with Ronaldinho today and is de same thing.

good observation..  :beermug:
         

Offline palos

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2009, 01:49:20 PM »
IMO....the big difference between the game in the 80's and previously to today's game is ATHLETICISM.

It's why Kenwyne Jones is in the EPL

Why YaYa Toure is one of the hottest commodities in the game

Today's ATHLETES are infinitely better than those of even 20 years ago.  That's a function of better nutrition, better training, better equipment, etc.  They're faster, stronger, bigger, and have more endurance.

When you look at who are regarded as the games best players, they have that combination of athleticism, BALANCE, and technical ability that sets them apart from the rest.

Ronaldinho
Kaka
Messi
Ibrahimovic

They're all superb athletes (ronnie is when fit) who combine that with their balance and technical ability to make them the best players among their peers.

But the average player in today's game......has to have that athleticism.  It's perhaps one reason why Latas never made it at the level in club football we all felt that he should have.
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Offline g

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2009, 01:58:24 PM »
My observation is that these nuances between countries you mention are slowly disappearing.  The reason for this is the internationalization of the game.  The best players in the world are bought at younger and younger ages by the big clubs in Europe.  This means that they are moulded in basically the same style of football.  Look at the way Brazil play today and go back and look at a game with Brazil from the eighties and you will see the difference.  The last time I see what we know as "Brazilian football"  was in 1990. 

Look at England today and England before the 90's.  England used to be known as a long ball team but they don't really play like that anymore.  There are very few teams today that you can say really have a distinct style of football. 

If you want proof that players styles change in Europe look at Dwight Yorke when he played for the strike squad and look how his game changed after he went to England.  We can see the same transformation taking place with Kenwyne Jones.  Compare young Ronaldinho with Ronaldinho today and is de same thing.

good observation..  :beermug:

cosign  :beermug:

What i have also observed is the constant adaptation and readaptation of styles to counter each other. The early success of South American teams were countered with a physical european style. And the changing of the South American style to better match up against european opposition. With the globalization of the game now success is not determined not only with the style of play but the technical capability of individual players in certain aspects of the field. Separation is now determined by

"How good is your centre back with the ball at his feet"
"How much are the wing backs involved in attacking play"
"Do you have a player in the mould of Makalele"

With the advent of technology in the game with respect to footwear and apparel, leadership is determined by the ability to utlize all these things and the use of statistics in working out the opposition and developing tactics.

Remember ESPN axis in the Euros last year? This is true modernization.
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Offline Filho

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2009, 05:54:54 PM »
My observation is that these nuances between countries you mention are slowly disappearing.  The reason for this is the internationalization of the game.  The best players in the world are bought at younger and younger ages by the big clubs in Europe.  This means that they are moulded in basically the same style of football.  Look at the way Brazil play today and go back and look at a game with Brazil from the eighties and you will see the difference.  The last time I see what we know as "Brazilian football"  was in 1990.  

Look at England today and England before the 90's.  England used to be known as a long ball team but they don't really play like that anymore.  There are very few teams today that you can say really have a distinct style of football.  

If you want proof that players styles change in Europe look at Dwight Yorke when he played for the strike squad and look how his game changed after he went to England.  We can see the same transformation taking place with Kenwyne Jones.  Compare young Ronaldinho with Ronaldinho today and is de same thing.

Nah. Last 'Brazilian' side was 1986 imo ;D. 1990 was widely regarded as the birth of the modern Brazilian philosophy and actually called the start of the 'Dunga Era'. Brazil put forth a central midfield of Dunga, Alemao and Mauro Galvao...first time there was no central playmaker. That side was dull. Ironicall they pull out the style against Argentina and lost after dominating the game and hitting the post 3 times. I have to give Scolari side in 2002 some props too..especially in the first round when he had Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo and Juninho all in the starting lineup. Fire! Real knock and real beat. You know yuh bad when yuh defensive midielder/stopper (Edmilson) scoring bicycle and ting.

I agree with you on the internationalization of the game. But international squads still and will always have their own flavor. No matter how well young players assimilate to European football, they still have their language, their culture, their music..everything that influences the way they play. Remember, by the time a future Brazilian pro is 13, 14 years old his technique is already solid. he's already learned the Brazilian way. He will suppress certain things playing in Europe...but it's still there. Brazilians will never play exactly like Germans..Argentines will always have something Argentine about them. Nigerians will be Nigerians. Yuh know..is like even when you watching people doing the exact same dance..everyone still has his or her own unique little interpretation and movement. So you right..everyone starting to do the same dance, but I think you will always see the differences.......Or everyone starting to talk the same language, but you will always hear the different accents

« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 05:57:41 PM by Filho »

Offline JDB

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2009, 08:08:55 PM »
IMO....the big difference between the game in the 80's and previously to today's game is ATHLETICISM.

It's why Kenwyne Jones is in the EPL

Why YaYa Toure is one of the hottest commodities in the game

Today's ATHLETES are infinitely better than those of even 20 years ago.  That's a function of better nutrition, better training, better equipment, etc.  They're faster, stronger, bigger, and have more endurance.

When you look at who are regarded as the games best players, they have that combination of athleticism, BALANCE, and technical ability that sets them apart from the rest.

Ronaldinho
Kaka
Messi
Ibrahimovic

Couldn't agree with this more.

For all Pele's technical skills and creativity I always felt that the thing that really elevated him above the rest was his supreme athleticism. Pele had cat-like agility and balance, along with strength and speed. Had it as a 17 year old and he  didn't lose it when he filled out and put on size.

makes you wonder what modern players would have looked like against the backdrop of players back then and how Pele would have been regarded if he played now.
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Offline Quags

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2009, 08:46:50 PM »
IMO....the big difference between the game in the 80's and previously to today's game is ATHLETICISM.

It's why Kenwyne Jones is in the EPL

Why YaYa Toure is one of the hottest commodities in the game

Today's ATHLETES are infinitely better than those of even 20 years ago.  That's a function of better nutrition, better training, better equipment, etc.  They're faster, stronger, bigger, and have more endurance.

When you look at who are regarded as the games best players, they have that combination of athleticism, BALANCE, and technical ability that sets them apart from the rest.

Ronaldinho
Kaka
Messi
Ibrahimovic

Couldn't agree with this more.

For all Pele's technical skills and creativity I always felt that the thing that really elevated him above the rest was his supreme athleticism. Pele had cat-like agility and balance, along with strength and speed. Had it as a 17 year old and he  didn't lose it when he filled out and put on size.

makes you wonder what modern players would have looked like against the backdrop of players back then and how Pele would have been regarded if he played now.
Know what tells me Mara better than Pele ,cause if Mara was healthy and say 15 yrs younger with the same skill set he would win the 2010 WC .

Offline Filho

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Re: Football nuances
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2009, 06:04:18 AM »
IMO....the big difference between the game in the 80's and previously to today's game is ATHLETICISM.

It's why Kenwyne Jones is in the EPL

Why YaYa Toure is one of the hottest commodities in the game

Today's ATHLETES are infinitely better than those of even 20 years ago.  That's a function of better nutrition, better training, better equipment, etc.  They're faster, stronger, bigger, and have more endurance.

When you look at who are regarded as the games best players, they have that combination of athleticism, BALANCE, and technical ability that sets them apart from the rest.

Ronaldinho
Kaka
Messi
Ibrahimovic

Couldn't agree with this more.

For all Pele's technical skills and creativity I always felt that the thing that really elevated him above the rest was his supreme athleticism. Pele had cat-like agility and balance, along with strength and speed. Had it as a 17 year old and he  didn't lose it when he filled out and put on size.

makes you wonder what modern players would have looked like against the backdrop of players back then and how Pele would have been regarded if he played now.
Know what tells me Mara better than Pele ,cause if Mara was healthy and say 15 yrs younger with the same skill set he would win the 2010 WC .

different players from different eras. hard to say what either would look like today, but I think I see your point. kinda. Maradona was from a more modern era and therefore looks a lot more like the modern day footballer. easier to say what you 'THINK' he could do in today's game. but some things to consider..Maradona played n 4 WCs and Argentina only won once...being a genius football payer does not guarantee you'll win anything..because it is a team sport and there are too many other factors that determine who wins the whole thing. Secondly, if you're going to enter the realm of fantasy, then why not ask yourself..what if Pele was around today with today's improved technology, nutrition, training etc. It's not hard to say that a Pele in peak form, inserted into a top Brazilian team couldn't raise the trophy himself. Shittier players have WC winners medals. In the end...we could hypothesize, but it's a joke to talk about what you 'know'.

 

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