April 28, 2024, 04:45:27 AM

Author Topic: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey  (Read 9856 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Filho

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5368
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2009, 09:06:26 AM »
How come no one talks about antisemitism when referring to the Arabs?  They are Semitic peoples as well right?

The Jews and Arabs are both descendants of Abraham who was a descendant of Shem (Noah's son), which is where the term Semite or Semitic comes from.  The Jews are the the descendants of Isaac and the Arabs descendants of Ishmael (two sons of Abraham).

Maybe someone could shed some light on this for me or correct me if I wrong.  When did the term Semitic become a term referring exclusively to Jews?

geat question. didn't know the answer but wikipedia is usually a good first stop to get a decent summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_Semitism

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2009, 11:03:43 AM »
Also, the current situation is largely fueled by unfair reprisal attacks on Jews due to Israel's attitude towards Palestine.

... but is that not by definition, Anti-semitism?  If they're being attacked on the basis of them being Jews... and by extension perceived as being in league with Israel?

How come no one talks about antisemitism when referring to the Arabs?  They are Semitic peoples as well right?

The Jews and Arabs are both descendants of Abraham who was a descendant of Shem (Noah's son), which is where the term Semite or Semitic comes from.  The Jews are the the descendants of Isaac and the Arabs descendants of Ishmael (two sons of Abraham).

Maybe someone could shed some light on this for me or correct me if I wrong.  When did the term Semitic become a term referring exclusively to Jews?

Nah you're right... I myself was surprised to learn of this some years ago... they're all Semites.  I guess however the difference in application comes down to semantics vs. convention... from a semantic perspective it should apply to all, however the conventional application of the term 'anti-semitic' has been in reference to anti-jewish actions. 

Offline Filho

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5368
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2009, 06:58:25 PM »

How come no one talks about antisemitism when referring to the Arabs?  They are Semitic peoples as well right?

The Jews and Arabs are both descendants of Abraham who was a descendant of Shem (Noah's son), which is where the term Semite or Semitic comes from.  The Jews are the the descendants of Isaac and the Arabs descendants of Ishmael (two sons of Abraham).

Maybe someone could shed some light on this for me or correct me if I wrong.  When did the term Semitic become a term referring exclusively to Jews?

Nah you're right... I myself was surprised to learn of this some years ago... they're all Semites.  I guess however the difference in application comes down to semantics vs. convention... from a semantic perspective it should apply to all, however the conventional application of the term 'anti-semitic' has been in reference to anti-jewish actions. 

it's interesting to see how certain ethnic terms have evolved from their literal (and original) meanings to new meanings in common parlance...

Like Hispanic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

or Aryan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18076
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2009, 07:44:18 PM »
Also, the current situation is largely fueled by unfair reprisal attacks on Jews due to Israel's attitude towards Palestine.

... but is that not by definition, Anti-semitism?  If they're being attacked on the basis of them being Jews... and by extension perceived as being in league with Israel?

How come no one talks about antisemitism when referring to the Arabs?  They are Semitic peoples as well right?

The Jews and Arabs are both descendants of Abraham who was a descendant of Shem (Noah's son), which is where the term Semite or Semitic comes from.  The Jews are the the descendants of Isaac and the Arabs descendants of Ishmael (two sons of Abraham).

Maybe someone could shed some light on this for me or correct me if I wrong.  When did the term Semitic become a term referring exclusively to Jews?

Nah you're right... I myself was surprised to learn of this some years ago... they're all Semites.  I guess however the difference in application comes down to semantics vs. convention... from a semantic perspective it should apply to all, however the conventional application of the term 'anti-semitic' has been in reference to anti-jewish actions. 

Applies to some Ethiopian communities as well ...

Aside from its contemplation of Jews, I would add that the 'convention' you refer to is not settled with respect to a common definition across borders or possessed of an accepted dimension ... but I accept that you are referring to the US popular context.

Have a look at this which the US State Dep't's Office to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism references on the State Dep't website with the caveat: "The recitation of the EUMC "working definition" of anti-Semitism should not be construed as an acceptance of that definition, or the statements and examples thereunder, as United States policy."

Beyond that, to get to the bottom of NUFF"s question we would have to march through 19th century intellectual history to unmask the formalization of anti-semitism as a concretized or concretizing concept. An abundance of information of varying quality (and, likely, reliability) is available here. In sum, prejudiced and racist European Christians once again carved out an industry in exclusivity.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 07:47:17 PM by asylumseeker »

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2009, 08:14:59 PM »

it's interesting to see how certain ethnic terms have evolved from their literal (and original) meanings to new meanings in common parlance...

Like Hispanic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic

or Aryan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan


Aryan I'm not surprised by... learned that a while ago actually.

This surprised me about Hispanic though... "the African nations of Equatorial Guinea,[1] and Western Sahara, and the northern coastal region of Morocco.[citation needed]"


Applies to some Ethiopian communities as well ...

Aside from its contemplation of Jews, I would add that the 'convention' you refer to is not settled with respect to a common definition across borders or possessed of an accepted dimension ... but I accept that you are referring to the US popular context.
Have a look at this which the US State Dep't's Office to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism references on the State Dep't website with the caveat: "The recitation of the EUMC "working definition" of anti-Semitism should not be construed as an acceptance of that definition, or the statements and examples thereunder, as United States policy."

Beyond that, to get to the bottom of NUFF"s question we would have to march through 19th century intellectual history to unmask the formalization of anti-semitism as a concretized or concretizing concept. An abundance of information of varying quality (and, likely, reliability) is available here. In sum, prejudiced and racist European Christians once again carved out an industry in exclusivity.


Yeah I honestly don't know... I would suggest though that it's probably more than just US pop culture, and perhaps 'convention' in a western popular culture/context.  I agree with your suggestion as to the history, from what I remember much of the religious... and cultural divide among Christianity, Judaism and Islam was 'concretized' following the end of the crusades.  European nations became decidely more insular and xenophobic then... continuing thru the early part of the 20th Century.  Given it's history then, it's all the more remarkable that the EU was able to take shape.

truetrini

  • Guest
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2009, 08:19:25 PM »
ah man is ah man...so if brudda man feel de need too so be it, nobody forcin him n it en hurtin no one

that's not necessarily true. he should keep those beliefs away from sport, especially in Europe where antisemitism is a real problem and on the rise. he is a public figure and a de facto role model, and there are youths who will feel violent acts against Spain's jews are more legit when someone like Fredi wears a shirt that reads Palestine without clarifying his exact position on the affair.

A spanish player wearing a shirt with a swastika could just be showing his beliefs, and without saying a word he is not directly hurting anyone. But there is a danger in that it gives the far right a public voice, a legitimate 'spokesperson' and for the real yahoos..just a lil more brass to go out and do something stupid. Fredi's actions could feel the same way to some jews in Europe

i dont think anti-semitism is a problem in europe. what is described as anti-semitism is usually anti-israeli sentiment.

If Kanoute is against hundreds of innocents being bombed he is entitled to have his say. Thats not comparable to wearing a swastika

Exactly.[/b]

Well then Freddy should wear a shirt showing support for Israel also. They were being bombed everyday and not a fool spoke before. Its amazing how the retards are out in numbers now.


Fella Israel deserve a serious comeuppance yuh know.  Dey does real f**k up de Palestinians a whole lot.  Bush and dem supporting Israel thru thick and thin, yet launch war against Iraq for contravening UN Mandates...how many UN Mandates has Israel failed to uphold?

I find Hamas look for dey ting eh, doh get me wrong, yuh cyar beat Israel thru war, why put yuh citizens in such danger?  But Israel is the real culprit over they for years.

Israel move into the people land, tell them to vacate they homes, bulldoze dem and den build new Jewish settlements dey...yuh f**king mad or wha?  If a man come in yuh yard and do dat, what will your response be?

there are also well documented instances of Israeli atrocities against young Palestinian men. 


Offline kounty

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 3154
  • Truthfulness is brighter than the light of the sun
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2009, 08:28:01 PM »
Kanoute can do what he pleases, ONCE it not in sighting a riot.
 Remember 1968 Olympics when US track and field stars protest black inequality by raising a black gloved fist.
If someone dictating when you eat,get water, bath, have electricity for years, and you have rockets, you'll fire the shit at them. Hamas won a democratic election and because US and Israel don't like it, so they blockade Gaza.
If US staving your family and say NO Carnival in 2009 in Trinidad you'll do the same. The bling bling we all buy in the Big Apple, the Israeli get them South Africa back in the days of apartheid and today in the Congo,and the rest of Africa.

Happy New Year fellas.

1. You can't really compare ???the gesture by Tommie Smith and John Carlos to this... the equivalent would have been a t-shirt saying "Peace in the Middle East" ???rather than a sign of solidarity with any one factor.

2. The rest of your post is a gross oversimplification of the situation between Palestine and Israel.  Gaza isn't blockaded???.  Regardless as to their politics, the fact is that Hamas is a terrorist organization who owe their existence to Syria???, much as Hezbollah does in Lebanon.  While Israel shares much of the blame for the current situation, by no means are they entirely at fault.  They certainly aren't the ones who broke the truce and instigated this current round of fighting.

3. Your statements regarding the jewellers is not only an ill fit for this conversation, but it also carries a thinly-veiled undercurrent of anti-semitism???... positing as you will, the greed of a relatively handful of Jewish jewellers onto all the people of Israel.
this have to go down as one of the most toots posts of the decade.
I'll save myself the never ending argument and just quietly lament that if even the better read americans pushing this head, then what hope do we have?  I'll just pray that Obama read a lil more.

truetrini

  • Guest
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2009, 08:31:11 PM »
Well done, Freddie!!  I aplaud your black ass for making some kinda statement, doing it the way you felt was best because God knows, them jews and israelis have every other means of communicating their plight and having their story told, cornered.   For God knows how long, them Palestinians and them jews been fighting between themselves but there has been such a disproportionate shift in the balance of power to favor the jews since England and the usa decide to start siding with the jews that the Palestinians no longer exist any more..... dem is not people.  or so it seems.  dem Palestinian pelt two-tree big stone at dem, is tear gas and bullet in dey ass!  Hamas send two-tree rocket in sparsely populated areas: four people dead.....is all kinda technology and smart bomb to mash-up de place: 800+ gone dong de drain......Palestinians is not people, too?  Freddie musn't make NO KINDA gesture of solidarity with a people that is suffering?  Just because the laws of football say so?  Wasn't Cassius Clay Muhammed Ali eventually deified for what he was initially vilified for by making a political stand, refusing to go to vietnam?  Didn't the respective governing bodies see to it that he was stripped of his titles and/or disallowed from from plying his trade?  If they could get sport involved with politics then, why can't Freddie do it now?  israel could carry out ALL KINDA pre-emptive strike on any of its neighbours and nobody cyah say "boo."  Yuh say ANYTHING critical of a jew and yuh "anti semetic."  Man, haul dem moddah cont eh! They was trading arms with south africa and flourishing in the diamond industry all while Mandela was in jail and his people was suffering (and I eh want to hear no shit 'bout it being only a "handful of greedy jews" because one jew is for all and all is for one......and ALL AH DEM GREEDY!!).....yuh would think, the way they and the usa always crying "terrorism" that jewish people haven't been reigning terror on these Palestinians in their own way.  What Hamas and Hezbollah are doing against israel now aint no different from what the Haganah and the Irgun were doing against the "British Imperialists" sixty-something years ago. You GO, Freddie!!

England may be why Israel exists in the first place, but England currently does not back Israel relentlessly like the US. Most Brits "support" Palestine, not Israel; the British Prime Minister wouldnt dare come out in favour of Israel, the way that Bush & Co do.

Ryan doh talk nonsense nah...UK backing Israel big time, maybe on the DL but anyone with one eye could clearly see that they do!

In 2001 the government of England approved 91 arms export licenses to Israel, in categories that included ammunition, bombs, torpedoes, rockets, missiles, combat vessels, military electronic and imaging equipment and armoured vehicles.

When George Galloway MP, ask de Blair Government for answers, Foreign Office minister Ben Bradshaw said there was "no evidence" that British arms and equipment had been used against the Palestinians.

Truth is the evidence is abundant and clear....Amnesty's report that the Apache helicopters used to attack the Palestinians are kept flying with British parts. (Bradshaw is an active member of Labour Friends of Israel, which has arranged for 57 Labour MPs to visit Israel, the largest number of MPs from any British government.)

You do know who Lord Levi is don't you...check the last name carefully...he is UK's secial envoy to Isreal.  Serious Pro Zionist dey.

British MPs receive award for Israel support
   Updated: 09/Feb/2007 16:34

LONDON (EJP)--- Three British Members of Parliament have been recognised for their work and support of Israel at a reception in the House of Commons.

Conservative MP David Gauke, Labour MP Barbara Keeley and Liberal Democrat Member of the European Parliament Baroness Sara Ludford were presented with a silver ‘tzdaka’ [charity] box in recognition for the work they do in support of Israel.

The all-party reception, hosted by the Ambassador of Israel to the UK Zvi Heifetz together with Conservative, Labour and Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel, was held last week.

Release call

Each of the politicians have played a significant role in supporting Israel in recent years.
Labour MP Barbara Keeley


Gauke was responsible for introducing a Parliamentary motion last November calling for the unconditional release of the three kidnapped Israeli soldiers, Ehud Goldwasser, Eldad Regev and Gilad Shalit.

The MP has been a member of the Conservative Friends of Israel since March 2001. Last February he initiated a debate on Iran’s nuclear programme and has spoken up in various debates and foreign office questions on Israel and the Middle East.

Keeley, meanwhile, is vice chair of Labour Friends of Israel and has an interest in the role of women in the peace process, she has visited the region and met with representatives of the New Israel Fund. She worked on the 2006 all-party investigation into anti-Semitism. The report called for urgent action from government, police, prosecution services, universities and the Jewish community, to tackle a disturbing rise in anti-Semitism in the UK.

And Baroness Ludford is a well-known supporter of Holocaust remembrance.

Speaking at the European Parliament in December, Baroness Ludford said: “I hope the European Council will express its condemnation of the Holocaust Conference - or, more accurately, the ‘Holocaust Denial Conference’ - just held in Iran. I appreciate the fact that the President of Parliament did just that this morning. It is essential that the European Union makes clear at the highest level - that of the assembled Prime Ministers - its opposition to this outrageous exercise in mischief and hate.”
Conservative MP David Gauke


Good relationship

Ambassador Heifetz welcomed the large number of Members of Parliament who attended saying it “was testimony to the strong and lasting bond between the UK and Israel”. He said: “You are here tonight are contributing much to the UK’s good relationship with Israel.”

He added: “We appreciate your presence here tonight, I know that sometimes even the best of friends do not agree on every issue but our discussions are always constructive. One thing I can assure you is that we will not let you down, we will explore every avenue in our pursuit for peace. After all it is in our interest to achieve peace as soon as possible.”

Jane Kennedy MP, chairman of Labour Friends of Israel introduced proceeding and James Arbuthnot MP, chairman of the Conservative Friends of Israel, thanked the ambassador for hosting the reception.

Speaking at the reception, Arbuthnot said: “Israel’s struggle is a struggle for her very existence. I think we should congratulate the winners for their fantastic friendship of Israel, something which is needed on a daily basis.

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18076
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2009, 08:34:12 PM »
Bakes, US notions of anti-semitism are different in character and degree to European (Western, Central or Eastern) notions of anti-semitism. The haven that Jews found in the US helped to secure the distinctions.  
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 08:37:59 PM by asylumseeker »

truetrini

  • Guest
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2009, 08:38:52 PM »
Bakes, US notions of anti-semitism are different in character and degree to European (Western, Central or Eastern) notions of anti-semitism. The haven that Jews found in the US helped to secure the distinctions.  

So the Jews found a haven in the US and what in Europe?

It is obvious that US notions of antisemitism would be different from that of Europe.

They were chased from Europe and found succor here.


Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18076
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2009, 09:20:04 PM »
My comment stems from what Bakes wrote. Obvious to me ...  obvious to you ... not so obvious to him apparently.



Yeah I honestly don't know... I would suggest though that it's probably more than just US pop culture, and perhaps 'convention' in a western popular culture/context.  I agree with your suggestion as to the history, from what I remember much of the religious... and cultural divide among Christianity, Judaism and Islam was 'concretized' following the end of the crusades.  European nations became decidely more insular and xenophobic then... continuing thru the early part of the 20th Century.  Given it's history then, it's all the more remarkable that the EU was able to take shape.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 09:22:05 PM by asylumseeker »

truetrini

  • Guest
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2009, 09:22:28 PM »
;)  I know.

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2009, 10:49:58 PM »
this have to go down as one of the most toots posts of the decade.
I'll save myself the never ending argument and just quietly lament that if even the better read americans pushing this head, then what hope do we have?  I'll just pray that Obama read a lil more.

Maybe it serves your particular agenda to label me as "american"... whatever, makes me no difference really.

If you so feel that what I post is 'toots'... then by all means make your case, b/c I guarantee you that I can substantiate everything I say.  Unlike some I doh post fuh posting sake.

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2009, 10:54:15 PM »
Bakes, US notions of anti-semitism are different in character and degree to European (Western, Central or Eastern) notions of anti-semitism. The haven that Jews found in the US helped to secure the distinctions.  

i never said that US notions of anti-semitism and European notions are identical in character... what I did say is that the term 'anti-semitism', when used in both the US and Europe context would equally be applied in reference to anti-Jewish actions and/or sentiments. Put another way, in the US and Europe... "anti-semitism" means anti-Jewish.  The meaning can be the same w/o the respective cultural notions being identical.

Offline Zeppo

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 1462
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2009, 08:49:07 AM »

i dont think anti-semitism is a problem in europe.


French Jewish cemetery attacked

Rabbi stabbed at Paris synagogue

New attack on Paris synagogue

Anti-Semitism has been a problem in Europe for millennia. In fact, if it hadn't been for European Anti-Semitism then the modern state of Israel would never have been established in the first place.

There will always be some examples of anti-semitism, just as there are examples of every form of bigotry. IMO, while I agre that things can always be improved the situation now is incomparable to the situation at the time when Israel was formed.

Also, the current situation is largely fueled by unfair reprisal attacks on Jews due to Israel's attitude towards Palestine.

Here's another one for you, hot off the press.

Petrol bombs hit French synagogue

A lot of these incidents sure seem to happen in France, don't they?

Anyway, you are right in calling them "unfair reprisal attacks", because if the perpetrators truly had a grudge against the Israeli government only then they would be going after the Israeli embassy, rather than synagogues and Jewish cemeteries.

"Donovan was excellent. We knew he was a good player, but he really didn't do anything wrong in the whole game and made it difficult for us."
- Xavi

truetrini

  • Guest
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #75 on: January 12, 2009, 11:17:50 AM »

i dont think anti-semitism is a problem in europe.


French Jewish cemetery attacked

Rabbi stabbed at Paris synagogue

New attack on Paris synagogue

Anti-Semitism has been a problem in Europe for millennia. In fact, if it hadn't been for European Anti-Semitism then the modern state of Israel would never have been established in the first place.

There will always be some examples of anti-semitism, just as there are examples of every form of bigotry. IMO, while I agre that things can always be improved the situation now is incomparable to the situation at the time when Israel was formed.

Also, the current situation is largely fueled by unfair reprisal attacks on Jews due to Israel's attitude towards Palestine.

Here's another one for you, hot off the press.

Petrol bombs hit French synagogue

A lot of these incidents sure seem to happen in France, don't they?

Anyway, you are right in calling them "unfair reprisal attacks", because if the perpetrators truly had a grudge against the Israeli government only then they would be going after the Israeli embassy, rather than synagogues and Jewish cemeteries.



so dey attacking dead people..big deal.

I am not anti semetic, but Israel is damn unfair to the peoples of other religions in dat area.

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18076
    • View Profile
Re: Kanoute Palestine Support in the Copa del Rey
« Reply #76 on: January 12, 2009, 11:29:08 AM »
Bakes, US notions of anti-semitism are different in character and degree to European (Western, Central or Eastern) notions of anti-semitism. The haven that Jews found in the US helped to secure the distinctions.  

i never said that US notions of anti-semitism and European notions are identical in character... what I did say is that the term 'anti-semitism', when used in both the US and Europe context would equally be applied in reference to anti-Jewish actions and/or sentiments. Put another way, in the US and Europe... "anti-semitism" means anti-Jewish.  The meaning can be the same w/o the respective cultural notions being identical.

I agree, you never used the word 'identical'. Perhaps you should have addressed completely the words you did use.

 

1]; } ?>