D.C. sniper set to die by lethal injection

[Bakes]

Your comment Having a body to bury doesn't bring the victim back either... but try telling the families that the 'closure' argument doesn't make any sense and see what they say.

I have tried telling that to the family ... my wife, her uncle and the rest of her family. And I know what they say.  Mrs Pecan 1st cousins, 16 and 18 year old girls were brutally slashed and stabbed to death.  So I know first hand what the families went through.  I personally helped with aspects of the funeral. I personally saw how it devastated the family.  Yet NOT ONCE did any of the immediate family ever advocate for the death penalty.  The two murderers were caught, tried, found guilty and sentenced to what the Cdn justice system calls life imprisonment.

So I am speaking somewhat first hand as a member of the victim's family.  The girls' murders did not change my view of the death penalty. Rather it re-enforced my wife's and my current views that if we kill those killers, we become them. Obviously that is an emotional view, but no different than the emotions that drive others to rally for the death penalty.

I saw where you posted about the murders of your family members earlier in the thread... however just because a death sentence couldn't bring closure for YOUR family doesn't mean that it doesn't bring closure for other families.  I don't believe (as per your suggestion) that ultimate say should lie with the families... but if executing someone who is guilty of committing a particularly heinous crime would help the surviving loved ones of the victim heal... then that works for me.

[Bakes]

Curious point? why should juveniles be treated differently than adults fore heinous crimes?  it should not make a difference if you support the death penalty in general.

There is nothing at all curious about it... two factors mitigate against executing juveniles:

1) The fact that from a developmental standpoint juveniles haven't fully completed their psychological/emotional growth and thus are prone to making more impulsive and less rational decisions.  They consequently don't posess the requisite culpable mental state to be subjected to the death penalty.  If you haven't fully thought thru your actions and the potential ramifications thereof then clearly you're not as culpable as one who has.

2) Related to their unfulfilled emotional growth is the capacity for redemption and change.

Of course both of these two prongs could be applicable to every convicted murderer, juvenile or adult... but statistically the numbers justify granting the benefit of the doubt to juveniles.  They are less likely to be mature and rational in their decisions... and more likely to be rehabilitated from their criminal state than their adult counterparts.

[pecan]

Your comment Having a body to bury doesn't bring the victim back either... but try telling the families that the 'closure' argument doesn't make any sense and see what they say.

I have tried telling that to the family ... my wife, her uncle and the rest of her family. And I know what they say.  Mrs Pecan 1st cousins, 16 and 18 year old girls were brutally slashed and stabbed to death.  So I know first hand what the families went through.  I personally helped with aspects of the funeral. I personally saw how it devastated the family.  Yet NOT ONCE did any of the immediate family ever advocate for the death penalty.  The two murderers were caught, tried, found guilty and sentenced to what the Cdn justice system calls life imprisonment.

So I am speaking somewhat first hand as a member of the victim's family.  The girls' murders did not change my view of the death penalty. Rather it re-enforced my wife's and my current views that if we kill those killers, we become them. Obviously that is an emotional view, but no different than the emotions that drive others to rally for the death penalty.

I saw where you posted about the murders of your family members earlier in the thread... however just because a death sentence couldn't bring closure for YOUR family doesn't mean that it doesn't bring closure for other families.  I don't believe (as per your suggestion) that ultimate say should lie with the families... but if executing someone who is guilty of committing a particularly heinous crime would help the surviving loved ones of the victim heal... then that works for me.

Do you know of any objective long term follow-up studies that track how victims' families respond in the aftermath of an execution? I am curious to see what the conclusions are. 

I would wager a case of Carib that true healing comes from within rather than whether or not the killer is executed. 

The only argument for the death penalty is that they will not kill again. But what if that person is innocent?  Is one innocent death worth that guarantee?

Smarter minds than me have argued against the death penalty.  I am only stating my personal beliefs/opinions. By no mean am I suggesting I am right.

 

[pecan]

Curious point? why should juveniles be treated differently than adults fore heinous crimes?  it should not make a difference if you support the death penalty in general.

There is nothing at all curious about it... two factors mitigate against executing juveniles:

1) The fact that from a developmental standpoint juveniles haven't fully completed their psychological/emotional growth and thus are prone to making more impulsive and less rational decisions.  They consequently don't posess the requisite culpable mental state to be subjected to the death penalty.  If you haven't fully thought thru your actions and the potential ramifications thereof then clearly you're not as culpable as one who has.

2) Related to their unfulfilled emotional growth is the capacity for redemption and change.

Of course both of these two prongs could be applicable to every convicted murderer, juvenile or adult... but statistically the numbers justify granting the benefit of the doubt to juveniles.  They are less likely to be mature and rational in their decisions... and more likely to be rehabilitated from their criminal state than their adult counterparts.

you may not find it curious .  But I still do not withstanding your points.  Most juveniles, as do most adults, know right from wrong and do not resort to killing people.  So to ease up on the juveniles just because they "haven't fully completed their psychological/emotional growth' is an emotional defense because by-and-large, "normal" people have a difficult time with killing children.  It is easier to demonize an adult and to kill said adult than to kill a child. Go ask soldiers who have to kill children.

So I still maintain that if you support the death penalty, you should have little difficulty in making that transition to execution juvenile killers ... unless there is something fundamentally flawed with the notion of death penalties.

 

[Queen Macoomeh]

Queen, you say you dont know what you would do in a situation like that, I already know. There are some things that are unforgivable. Some things that dont make sense. Some things that dont even need a judge and jury and a prison sentence.

Yes I don't know what I would do. It's not always cut and dried. If my family is heinously harmed I would probably catapult into madness. How might it manifest? I don't know. My guess would be complete grief since my family is the air I breathe. The loss of them would be my undoing. Faced with their murderer? It boggles the mind. I may react with venom and want to inject or throw the switch myself. I may also be so completely insane that all I can do is rock and drool on myself.

What if the murderer is a child? A member of the family? Didn't I read where a father took his own son out in the back yard and shoot him mafia style when he found out the son was molesting the daughter?
I have a 15 year old son. I have a 5 year old daughter. What if this were my family? How do I deal with my husband, my lover, the father of my two children?

...so yeah...I don't know. This isn't a one size fits all for me. Some should fry, some have mitigating circumstances.
I do know all this talk about being civilized is a crock though. We are not. On that, I have no doubt whatsoever.

[Bakes]

Do you know of any objective long term follow-up studies that track how victims' families respond in the aftermath of an execution? I am curious to see what the conclusions are.

Don't know of any... I really don't follow the death penalty debates like that.

I would wager a case of Carib that true healing comes from within rather than whether or not the killer is executed.  

I'm no psychologist, but I'd wager that external factors can aid the healing process as well.

The only argument for the death penalty is that they will not kill again. But what if that person is innocent?  Is one innocent death worth that guarantee?

No, I think that's the only argument you're willing to accept... I think there's a difference.

Smarter minds than me have argued against the death penalty.  I am only stating my personal beliefs/opinions. By no mean am I suggesting I am right.

Smarter minds than me have similarly argued in favor of it... and like you I don't presume to have the answer/s either.  All I know is that as I've begun to look at reality a bit closer to the action so to speak that I've shifted my opposition against capital punishment to more of a centrist stance.  I am neither staunchly for the death penalty nor staunchly opposed to it... I merely favor it in extreme cases.

I had the opportunity to hear Darryl Hunt speak two weeks ago... and to pose some questions to him.  There are individuals throughout the world who have every right to be bitter and selfish, who instead step beyond their circumstances so as to try to make a difference in the lives of others... but it's not everyday that we get a chance to meet them in person.  He is one such individual... I was literally moved to tears speaking with him.  

So yes, I'm well aware of the risk of executing innocent men... which is why death-eligible cases should be selected with due care and scrutinized for mistakes and prosecutorial misconduct.  I also disagree with denying review on grounds of technicalities or otherwise deliberately frustrating efforts that might help uncover the truth... much of which happens today.  However a primary concern with imprisonment is the punishment factor and quite frankly I think some people can forfeit their right to live and breathe among us.  Cold?  Sure. Playing God?  Maybe.  But whenever we endeavor to judge others such is the risk we run.

[truetrini]

yuh make paralegal with that response.

Dai'z okay de concept over yuh head doh worry about it... keep putting yuh high school diploma to good use helping out de teacher in de classroom.

Bakes I was watching a program about the Constitution jes de other day and they were discussing Paine and John Jay...you are absolutely right...even without watching that program I get what you were saying....the Government is NOT an individual...jes like conscription etc.  The State..................I am starting to like law.

[Bakes]

you may not find it curious .  But I still do not withstanding your points.  Most juveniles, as do most adults, know right from wrong and do not resort to killing people.

I never argued otherwise... but thank you for stating the obvious.  Before the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional, most juveniles charged with killing people weren't made death-eligible either... since we're tossing about meaningless statements.

So to ease up on the juveniles just because they "haven't fully completed their psychological/emotional growth' is an emotional defense because by-and-large, "normal" people have a difficult time with killing children.  It is easier to demonize an adult and to kill said adult than to kill a child. Go ask soldiers who have to kill children.

There's nothing at all emotional about the debate, it's fact driven by scientific data.  Again, I'm no psychologist... but I know better than to argue with the experts... plus centuries of anecdotal evidence supports the stance.  Young people do stupid things all the time... it's only with age and experience do they typically acquire the requisite wisdom to reflect upon the errors of their youth.  I know I can personally attest to it as well... so from personal, anecdotal and scientific evidence I can conclude with confidence that treating juvenile offenders more leniently than their adult counterparts is sound policy.  There is nothing at all "emotional" about my position.

So I still maintain that if you support the death penalty, you should have little difficulty in making that transition to execution juvenile killers ... unless there is something fundamentally flawed with the notion of death penalties.

 

As is your right... you can maintain your stance all you want.  I on the other hand try to be as objective as possible and part of that is recognizing that there are little hard and fast truths in life.  I fully recognized that there are some full-fledged juvenile criminals who but for their age would make prime candidates for capital punishment.  I also recognize that there may be adult offenders who make genuine mistakes who aren't afforded the benefit of the doubt on account of their age.  We can't hope for a perfect system, we can only try to make it better and do the best we possibly can.

[Bakes]

yuh make paralegal with that response.

Dai'z okay de concept over yuh head doh worry about it... keep putting yuh high school diploma to good use helping out de teacher in de classroom.

Bakes I was watching a program about the Constitution jes de other day and they were discussing Paine and John Jay...you are absolutely right...even without watching that program I get what you were saying....the Government is NOT an individual...jes like conscription etc.  The State..................I am starting to like law.

Not only is the Gov't not an individual... but no 'individual' makes the decision to try, let alone sentence someone to death.  Not sure why ribbit having problems with it... then again, is ribbit we talking about so it should really be no surprise.

[ribbit]

here is a thought .. may be the death penalty decision should be made by the victim's family?

yeah, that's a good point. maybe more precisely by the victim if that's possible (like a somewhat morbid addendum to a last will stipulating desired judgements in the event of demise by someone else's hand). but it really seems that the victim ought to be part of the judgement rather than a bystander. maybe take a page from some of those african villages who had to deal with child soldiers. it was up to the village, particularly those aggrieved, to decide whether these child soldiers would be accepted back.

[TriniCana]

  yup Martha Stewart cell would be ideal for him. 

Cleveland mass murder suspect indicted on 85 counts
CNN.com
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/01/sowell.cleveland.bodies/index.html

A registered sex offender has been indicted on 85 counts -- including aggravated murder, rape and kidnapping -- in the deaths of 11 women whose bodies were found at his home, authorities said Tuesday.
In addition, Anthony Sowell, 50, is charged with "brutalizing" three women and raping two of them, Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Bill Mason said.

Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty against Sowell, Mason said. Sowell is scheduled to be arraigned Thursday. Sowell is now charged with 11 counts of aggravated murder with a "mass murder specification," meaning multiple people were killed in a similar fashion, Mason said. He also is charged with abuse of a corpse, kidnapping and tampering with evidence.

The indictment also alleges that Sowell assaulted women on December 8, 2008, and on September 22 and October 20 of this year. The September and October victims were raped, and the other woman was punched and choked before she escaped, Mason said. Sowell's charges in the incidents include attempted murder, rape or attempted rape, kidnapping, robbery and felonious assault.

Sowell already faced charges in the September 22 rape and has pleaded not guilty.

On October 20, neighbors reported seeing a naked woman fall from the second floor of his house. Firefighters responded and later notified police. But the woman told officers she fell off the roof while she was at the home "partying," police said earlier. No charges were filed at the time.

Mason said, however, that the 51-year-old woman had been invited to Sowell's home and left, but was lured back in. After being choked and raped, she attempted to escape out a second-floor window as Sowell tried to pull her back in. When he was unsuccessful, he pushed her out, and she lay unconscious in an alley for a while before he pulled her back in the house.

Sowell threatened his victims and warned them not to contact police, Mason said. It's possible there are other victims, he said, and he urged anyone who has not come forward to do so. Sowell "knew what he was doing was wrong at the time he was doing it," Mason said.

As of last month, Sowell was on suicide watch at the request of his public defender, Kathleen DeMetz. She had said a psychiatric evaluation of Sowell had been ordered but was unlikely to happen until after an indictment was filed.

Cuyahoga County Sheriff Bob Reid said Tuesday that Sowell has been a "model prisoner," is kept in an isolated unit and has declined visitation requests. All of the 11 victims were African-American women, authorities have said. Most of them were strangled by ligature -- which could include a string, cord or wire -- and at least one was strangled by hand, officials said. Seven still had ligatures wrapped around their necks.

All that has been found of one woman is a skull that was wrapped in a paper bag and stuffed into a bucket in the home's basement.

Sowell served 15 years in prison for a 1989 attempted rape and was released in 2005. He was required to register as a sex offender. After the 11 victims were found, police in mid-November used thermal imaging in an attempt to see whether any additional human remains were on the property. They dug certain areas by hand. No more were found. Police and the FBI have said they are looking at the unsolved murders of three women in East Cleveland to determine whether there are similarities with the remains found at Sowell's home. The inquiry continues, Mason said Tuesday.

Police in Coronado, California, have said they are attempting to determine whether Sowell is linked to a 1979 rape there. Though the statute of limitations has expired, authorities said they would like to provide closure to the victim.
Neighbors and police have said that women were seen at Sowell's home from time to time and that he would offer them alcohol. Police said he also might have offered them drugs. In the September assault, the 36-year-old woman told police that she encountered Sowell while walking in his neighborhood and he took her back to his home, where he became violent and raped her, according to prosecutors. "While raping her, he strangled her with a cord until she lost consciousness," authorities said in a statement. "When she regained consciousness, he let her out of the house."

[Bakes]

She visited the house (and presumably realized it smelled like rotting corpses)... leave... and was "lured" back in?  With what... a certified check for $10 million dollars and a bucket of extra crispy?

[truetrini]

Ohio executes inmate with 1-drug lethal injection
AP

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By ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS, Associated Press Writer Andrew Welsh-huggins, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 23 mins ago

LUCASVILLE, Ohio – Ohio executed a killer Tuesday by performing the nation's first lethal injection using a single drug, a supposedly less painful method than previous executions that required three drugs.

Kenneth Biros was pronounced dead at 11:47 a.m. Tuesday, about 10 minutes after one dose of thiopental sodium began flowing into his veins at the Southern Ohio Correctional Facility in Lucasville. The U.S. Supreme Court had rejected his final appeal about two hours before.

Experts predicted the thiopental sodium would take longer to kill the 51-year-old Biros than the convention three-drug cocktail, but the 10 minutes it apparently took him to die was about the usual length of time even under the method previously used by Ohio and still used by most other death penalty states.

The mother, sister and brother of Biros' victim, Tami Engstrom, applauded as the warden announced the time of death.

"Rock on," Debi Heiss, Tami's sister, said a moment earlier as the curtains were drawn for the coroner to check on Biros. "That was too easy."

The execution team tried for several minutes to find usable veins, including inserting needles several times in both arms, before eventually completing the process on just his left arm after about 30 minutes.

After the chemical started flowing at 11:37 a.m., Biros' chest heaved up and down several times, and he moved his head a couple of times over about two minutes before his body stopped moving.

Prisons director Terry Collins said the team took as much time as needed and he considered the process problem-free.

Ohio overhauled its procedure after a failed attempt to execute Romell Broom, a procedure halted by Gov. Ted Strickland in September. Executioners tried for two hours to find a suitable vein for injection, hitting bone and muscle in as many as 18 needle sticks that Broom, 53, said were very painful.

A hearing begins in federal court Wednesday on Broom's attempt to stop the state from trying again.

The state had two goals in changing its process. Switching to one drug was meant to end a 5-year-old lawsuit that claims Ohio's three-drug system was capable of causing severe pain. Injection experts and defense attorneys agreed a single dose of sodium thiopental would not cause pain.

A backup procedure allowing a two-drug muscle injection was created in case a situation like Broom's execution happened again.

States are watching Ohio's change, but none have made a similar switch. Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Texas and Virginia are among those saying they will keep the three-drug method.

It was the second trip to Lucasville for Biros, who spent more than 30 hours in the holding cell in March 2007 before the U.S. Supreme Court stopped his execution and allowed him to make his own challenge to the three-drug method.

U.S. District Judge Gregory Frost refused Monday to delay the execution, and Biros' appeal was rejected later that night.

Biros argued that the state had failed to fix the problems that led to the unsuccessful execution attempt in September. He said the state still relies on unqualified executioners and lacks limits on how long they are allowed to try to find a vein.

In asking Frost for a stay, Biros had argued that the new execution method still left vein access issues unresolved, subjecting him to the risk of severe pain, and had described the new one-drug approach as "impermissible human experimentation." The judge, in his ruling, called the arguments "unpersuasive."

Frost did say Ohio's execution system still has flaws that "raise profound concerns and present unnecessary risks." He also said he was concerned about the competency of Ohio's executioners and how much they appeared able to deviate from the state's written execution rules.

All 36 death penalty states use lethal injection, and 35 rely on the three-drug method. Nebraska, which recently adopted injection over electrocution, has proposed the three-drug method but hasn't finalized the process.

Biros killed the 22-year-old Engstrom near Warren in 1991 after offering to drive her home from a bar, then scattered her body parts in Ohio and Pennsylvania. Before dying Tuesday, he apologized for his crime and thanked his friends and relatives for supporting him.

"I'm being paroled to my father in heaven," Biros said. "I will now spend all of my holidays with my Lord and savior, Jesus Christ."

[pecan]

Ohio executes inmate with 1-drug lethal injection

The mother, sister and brother of Biros' victim, Tami Engstrom, applauded as the warden announced the time of death.

"Rock on," Debi Heiss, Tami's sister, said a moment earlier as the curtains were drawn for the coroner to check on Biros. "That was too easy."

The execution team tried for several minutes to find usable veins, including inserting needles several times in both arms, before eventually completing the process on just his left arm after about 30 minutes.

After the chemical started flowing at 11:37 a.m., Biros' chest heaved up and down several times, and he moved his head a couple of times over about two minutes before his body stopped moving.

Prisons director Terry Collins said the team took as much time as needed and he considered the process problem-free.

Ohio overhauled its procedure after a failed attempt to execute Romell Broom, a procedure halted by Gov. Ted Strickland in September. Executioners tried for two hours to find a suitable vein for injection, hitting bone and muscle in as many as 18 needle sticks that Broom, 53, said were very painful.

The state had two goals in changing its process. Switching to one drug was meant to end a 5-year-old lawsuit that claims Ohio's three-drug system was capable of causing severe pain. Injection experts and defense attorneys agreed a single dose of sodium thiopental would not cause pain.

A backup procedure allowing a two-drug muscle injection was created in case a situation like Broom's execution happened again.

1) If the victim's family truly got satisfaction and the execution helped ease their pain, then I suppose the death penalty serves at least one purpose.

2) If they having so much problems with lethal injection, why don't they revert to the guillotine or firing squad?  Those work really well, or are they trying to sanitize executions?

[kounty]

man...I believe man have a higher nature than this...honestly.  mankind is NOBLE.  I am sure we could figure out a better way.