Author Topic: How will the solar system end? (Read 9374 times)

pecan · « **Reply #60 on:** February 06, 2009, 12:20:59 PM »

TT, this is a good thread you started.

It may have morphed into a topic you were not planning on but whether we believe or not, I personally like the different ideas being discussed here.

ribbit · « **Reply #61 on:** February 06, 2009, 12:33:13 PM »

Quote from: pecan on February 06, 2009, 06:40:16 AM

Quote from: Col. Saul Tigh on February 05, 2009, 09:52:17 PM
Quote from: pecan on February 05, 2009, 12:30:37 PM
Quote from: Col. Saul Tigh on February 05, 2009, 10:31:13 AM

pecan, thanks for this - i was getting at a different type of knowledge, i.e. a person's capacity for self-deception. there is a biblical admonisment on mocking God. so who's fooling whom?

I took a quick look at that link.

The problem I have with those sort or arguments is that they are circular.

They quote the Bible to prove what is said in the Bible is true. Circular.

An argument is circular if the conclusion is in the premise.

i.e.

"God exists, because the Word of God tells us so." That my friend is circular reasoning.

Edit - here is a better example

The 'Word of God' is true because it is in the Bible.
The Bible is true because it contain the 'Word of God'.

yes, i think i see your point - the Bible is one point of reference into the nature of God and certainly its validity is debateable.

still, for me, the narrower issue of whether God can know "intent" has wider implications. if we accept the premise, then God really "knows" whether we believe. if we don't accept the premise, then there are limits to this God. e.g. what kind of judgement is this God capable of? is it the arbitrary justice of the old testament, or a strict legalistic moral calculus or some ridiculous "lance ito" in the sky?

back to the question of believing in God. if the basis for belief is not the Bible or religion or empirical or deductive evidence, then where is the belief drawn from? one prominent source is the mass of people that say that they believe in a God. in malcolm gladwell's the tipping point, he describes a sociological experiment where a small group of people are instructed to stand on a street corner and stare up at the sky. sure enough, after a period of time the number grows as people take the lead of the original sky-watchers. is belief in God more substantial than this experiment? to use richard dawkin's parlance, is God more than a (long-lived) meme?

the other source is personal experience. this to me seems the only real argument for belief in God.

no doubt, I came to know of God through my parents. My upbringing was steeped in the Anglican and the Roman Catholic churches with a sprinkling of Islam. I have a copy of Richard Dawkings "The God Delusion" sitting on my desk. I have not read it yet. Perhaps I am afraid of what light he will shed on my belief.

Throughout man's history, religions have been created to explain the unexplained. Primitive tribes in remote places all seem to gravitate to the existence of a God (Lance Ito - O.J's God? ). Those earlier believers did not come to that belief by following someone else - they did it independently of other groups.

I once read that the brain is 'hardwired' to pray. When we pray, beneficial chemicals are produced which create a sense of well being and calm. Perhaps, believing is part of a evolutionary trait that promoted survival in extreme and hostile conditions.

I like your last sentence. My belief is based on personal experience (not to say that I have had an conversion like St. Paul or that the holy spirit has entered my life with blaring trumpets). Rather, it has been one of evolution through personal observations of the world around me. I have to admit that I take issue with those believers whose belief is narrowly based on the old testament.

At this point in my life, I have a strong belief in God. But that God is not the God of the old Testament. In fact, I think that my God is limited because he/she/it built a Universe that has limitations. Maybe we are a failed experiment.

My quest continues.

one distinction ought to be made - different cultures are split on monotheistic and polytheistic models of God(s). one of those celebrity athiests (dawkins or hitchens or TT) made the point that this variation suggests humankind's understanding of God is projected rather than inspired.

it reminds me of something i heard from a talk given by nyc rabbi boteach. he said when someone asks if you believe in God, you should say "describe your God and i'll tell you if i believe."

ribbit · « **Reply #62 on:** February 06, 2009, 12:50:32 PM »

Quote from: Swima on February 06, 2009, 07:35:44 AM

One small contribution to the topic. We do not know for sure what great power has caused us and our universe to come into being. Some theorists even talk about multiple universes (oxymoron noted) existing.

That being said, we are here, we are real and no one has reported on what exists beyond death and none of us can remember first hand what occurred before we were born. Does that mean that our existence consists only within this small window? Who knows? The truth is, we may never be meant to know while we are here. But in our minds our existence is significant enough to have us believe that we are supposed to be here; that somehow, we are here for a purpose. Each and every one of us. If that is the case, how is that purpose designed? Even the unborn baby who dies has purpose and effect to its mother at the very least. To whom or what do we attribute our existence? I do not mean you or me. I mean our known universe, and while we are at it, where does that, he, she or it begin? Will it end and if so, will its end be infinite or will it restart and in a mega-zillion years plus one, we shall all be having this conversation again?

My point is, we do not know for sure, but I rather enjoy life for the most part and to whomever I should direct my gratitude, I try to do it regularly. My life is the only one I know and I would rather know that I attempted to be gracious when I had the chance rather than not at all.

just a note: the existentialist school of thought, long suffocated by religion, explores this line of thought ... with different findings.

Bakes · « **Reply #63 on:** February 06, 2009, 09:17:33 PM »

Quote from: ZANDOLIE on February 06, 2009, 11:47:38 AM

Interesting argument. But is life really "created" every time someone has sex? God does be blowing down man back every time they break in a woman belly?

Yes.

Life is not "created", it is a PROCESS.

Semantics.

But I would argue that the gift of the soul is inherent within the process of birth and conception itself

When does conception take place in the cloning process?

because God's hand is present throughout, from the union of love between man and woman, the deep desire to form and raise a family, right up to all the complex chemistry required for the single-celled union of sperm and egg to develop arms, legs, brains etc.

I see you getting into fusion of gametes and ting... we still talking about cloning, right?

My point is that ALL children are born with a soul or with the capacity to seek a close spiritual relationship with God, and this capacity is inherent within the processes of life and death, regardless of whether you were concieved in the backseat of a Chevy or in a test tube.

Dred... whey you coming from with all this 'conception' talk? We talking cloning, not in vitro fertilization.

The slippery slope inherent in your argument is that a child born through cloning or other forms of assisted reproduction is somehow a lesser and more diminshed child than children born through the "normal" way. And if the gift of a soul is discretionary, not every child born through sex will neccessarily have a soul either.

Eh eh... dat is your argument. I am speaking specifically about cloning... I ent say nutten about other forms of "assisted reproduction". I fail to see any "slippery slope" in my argument... and yes I know the gift of the soul is discretionary... in fact, I think I said so myself

. Sexual procreation is the natural way of things... you'd have to come with a pretty good argument to make any kind of a case that a child born of sexual reproduction can be 'soulless'. Here would be a good point to remind you that not all sexual reproduction involves intercourse.

truetrini · « **Reply #64 on:** February 06, 2009, 09:52:39 PM »

steups!

God does be in man bed when dey sexing and in de test tube too...God is everywhere! lol

How funny

zuluwarrior · « **Reply #65 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:32:37 PM »

Sex before marrage is ah sin .

truetrini · « **Reply #66 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:38:19 PM »

Quote from: zuluwarrior on February 06, 2009, 10:32:37 PM

Sex before marrage is ah sin .

marriage is ah sin!

zuluwarrior · « **Reply #67 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:40:29 PM »

yeh yuh right between same sex .

truetrini · « **Reply #68 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:42:32 PM »

Quote from: zuluwarrior on February 06, 2009, 10:40:29 PM

yeh yuh right between same sex .

steups ah feel some ah allyuh does dream about bullers oui.

capodetutticapi · « **Reply #69 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:47:19 PM »

Quote from: zuluwarrior on February 06, 2009, 10:32:37 PM

Sex before marrage is ah sin .

so u does buy cyat in bag,ent u does test drive car.

zuluwarrior · « **Reply #70 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:49:55 PM »

Know body else mentioned bullers beside you so how come yuh sayin people do dream about dem .

truetrini · « **Reply #71 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:53:44 PM »

Quote from: zuluwarrior on February 06, 2009, 10:49:55 PM

Know body else mentioned bullers beside you so how come yuh sayin people do dream about dem .

I say you mention bullers, wake up fella yuh dreaming!

zuluwarrior · « **Reply #72 on:** February 06, 2009, 10:59:42 PM »

Capo their is something that take place between ah man and ah woman when they havin sex, fuh ah prostitute is one thing but to ah reel woman with feelings iz diffrent .

zuluwarrior · « **Reply #73 on:** February 06, 2009, 11:13:21 PM »

Breds if yuh check i not winking like sarah palin u iz .

capodetutticapi · « **Reply #74 on:** February 06, 2009, 11:19:34 PM »

Quote from: zuluwarrior on February 06, 2009, 10:59:42 PM

Capo their is something that take place between ah man and ah woman when they havin sex, fuh ah prostitute is one thing but to ah reel woman with feelings iz diffrent .

yeah some ah them fake women does take ah good bullin for love.

on ah serious note though to be ah virgin at marriage especially fuh ah man is non existent,de blame could be put on society or upbringin.take u pick.when ah was 12,my old man had de talk with me,from that moment on i know life is about sex and money.