Tramways and Trolleys in T&T

[Savannah boy]

http://www.tramz.com/tt/tt.html

[capodetutticapi]

de good old days,wonder wuh was de murder rate back then.

[Savannah boy]

I really wonder why they did away with it.  Transport Systems like that provide a lot of jobs and it safe.  Yuh pay with tokens and tickets these days.  Yuh cyah rob dem.  Yuh have to rob de tram car station where police waiting for yuh.  What we have now is PH Drivers filling de gaps in our transport system and getting kill.

[Mr Fix-it]

Might as well bring dat back to POS yes.  

[ann3boys]

savannah boy
thanks for that info. great !!
 

[E-man]

might as well add

[JDB]

yeah great post. Love those old pictures.

[WestCoast]

http://www.tramz.com/tt/tt.html

Thank You

[TriniCana]

Thank you for that learning experience Savannah

[trinindian]

Nice read, very informative.
Are there any model train enthusiasts on the site?
Started to get into it would be nice to see some of the layouts.

[Savannah boy]

You all are welcome.  Ah doh always post shit talk all de time yuh know.  Somebody e-mail meh dat and it touched a nerve to see de way de country looked back then.  You go places like Toronto or San Francisco where dey still have dem modes of transportation and yuh wonder why we did away with it.  We packing we country with cars left and right.  It not good for the air we breathing and it have traffic everywhere.  We have no commuter lanes.  Crime makes park and (share) rides and carpooling impossible.  Dey should stop giving out Driver's Permits like in Singapore.  Top off the amount of driver's on the roads.  New Permits are for weekends only.  Unlimited Permits will be issued as people retire from driving, dey dead or move abroad or something.  And de blasted Govt have to stop bringing in foreign owned vehicles.  Doh have cheaper alternatives to make people buy cars jes for so.  Some of dem foolish yutemen in particular doh need no car...is only fete or banditry dat many of dem studying.

[TriniCana]

I sent this link to every body on my contact list and also to a couple of people at my job. So now by tomorrow I know I'll have to answer one set of upteen questions....

[Bakes]

You all are welcome.  Ah doh always post shit talk all de time yuh know.  Somebody e-mail meh dat and it touched a nerve to see de way de country looked back then.  You go places like Toronto or San Francisco where dey still have dem modes of transportation and yuh wonder why we did away with it.  We packing we country with cars left and right.  It not good for the air we breathing and it have traffic everywhere.  We have no commuter lanes.  Crime makes park and (share) rides and carpooling impossible.  Dey should stop giving out Driver's Permits like in Singapore.  Top off the amount of driver's on the roads.  New Permits are for weekends only.  Unlimited Permits will be issued as people retire from driving, dey dead or move abroad or something.  And de blasted Govt have to stop bringing in foreign owned vehicles.  Doh have cheaper alternatives to make people buy cars jes for so.  Some of dem foolish yutemen in particular doh need no car...is only fete or banditry dat many of dem studying.

Trams are extremely unsafe, which is why you hardly see them anymore... in fact the only place I've ever encountered them personally is in Philadelphia.


...but great opening post, wonderful pictures.

[Jah Gol]

Nice find. My grandfather used to repair and maintain the trams. I will show him the pictures.

[noname]

You all are welcome.  Ah doh always post shit talk all de time yuh know.  Somebody e-mail meh dat and it touched a nerve to see de way de country looked back then.  You go places like Toronto or San Francisco where dey still have dem modes of transportation and yuh wonder why we did away with it.  We packing we country with cars left and right.  It not good for the air we breathing and it have traffic everywhere.  We have no commuter lanes.  Crime makes park and (share) rides and carpooling impossible.  Dey should stop giving out Driver's Permits like in Singapore.  Top off the amount of driver's on the roads.  New Permits are for weekends only.  Unlimited Permits will be issued as people retire from driving, dey dead or move abroad or something.  And de blasted Govt have to stop bringing in foreign owned vehicles.  Doh have cheaper alternatives to make people buy cars jes for so.  Some of dem foolish yutemen in particular doh need no car...is only fete or banditry dat many of dem studying.

Trams are extremely unsafe, which is why you hardly see them anymore... in fact the only place I've ever encountered them personally is in Philadelphia.


...but great opening post, wonderful pictures.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "extremely unsafe" in that statement?

[Savannah boy]

Unsafe?  I doubt that transport officials in Toronto and San Francisco would agree with you as these services are still in effect.  I lived in San Francisco for 12 years.  Their rail systems are still operating historic streetcars, modern light rail vehicles, alternative fuel vehicles, electric trolley coaches, and the world famous cable cars.  All transportation vehicles in that city including buses and rapid transit trains are equipped with cameras on board and plain clothes police.  I did not feel threatened.  I mean if yuh going somewhere say after midnight anywhere, yuh doh expect de cream of de crop to be with yuh on public transport.  Nuff bandit and pipers does move at night.  Buy my feeling is dat the city took all pre-cautions to make the public as safe as possible while on the transit vehicles...even the Trams (Street Cars).

[ribbit]

You all are welcome.  Ah doh always post shit talk all de time yuh know.  Somebody e-mail meh dat and it touched a nerve to see de way de country looked back then.  You go places like Toronto or San Francisco where dey still have dem modes of transportation and yuh wonder why we did away with it.  We packing we country with cars left and right.  It not good for the air we breathing and it have traffic everywhere.  We have no commuter lanes.  Crime makes park and (share) rides and carpooling impossible.  Dey should stop giving out Driver's Permits like in Singapore.  Top off the amount of driver's on the roads.  New Permits are for weekends only.  Unlimited Permits will be issued as people retire from driving, dey dead or move abroad or something.  And de blasted Govt have to stop bringing in foreign owned vehicles.  Doh have cheaper alternatives to make people buy cars jes for so.  Some of dem foolish yutemen in particular doh need no car...is only fete or banditry dat many of dem studying.

Trams are extremely unsafe, which is why you hardly see them anymore... in fact the only place I've ever encountered them personally is in Philadelphia.

...but great opening post, wonderful pictures.

is not trams unsafe, is philadelphia.

[Bakes]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "extremely unsafe" in that statement?

Accidents and electrocutions... trams are notorious.


I should note that Baltimore is another city that I personally know of with a "light rail" system... Savannah boy mentioned San Fran... forgot about that one too, but never been so couldn't speak from personal experience on that.

[Bakes]

Unsafe?  I doubt that transport officials in Toronto and San Francisco would agree with you as these services are still in effect.  I lived in San Francisco for 12 years.  Their rail systems are still operating historic streetcars, modern light rail vehicles, alternative fuel vehicles, electric trolley coaches, and the world famous cable cars.  All transportation vehicles in that city including buses and rapid transit trains are equipped with cameras on board and plain clothes police.  I did not feel threatened.  I mean if yuh going somewhere say after midnight anywhere, yuh doh expect de cream of de crop to be with yuh on public transport.  Nuff bandit and pipers does move at night.  Buy my feeling is dat the city took all pre-cautions to make the public as safe as possible while on the transit vehicles...even the Trams (Street Cars).

If I wanted to address crime in the city then I would have said that "X city is extremely unsafe"... what you're referring to is safety within the City of San Francisco, which I won't doubt.  I was speaking specifically about the dangers posed by trams and trolleys themselves, not the bandits, who can be found everywhere, including in private vehicles.

[TriniCana]

I sent the link to friend in Toronto and this was her reply:

"fantastic images, hard to imagine that Trinidad's past resembled Toronto's present. "
 
So my question to the fellows up east of meh - any confirmation on the above statement ?

[WestCoast]

when I was in Toronto recently I used their streetcar system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_streetcar_system
it is great

there are trolley buses in Edmonton and Vancouver

[Deeks]

Bakes, I have travelled on the Baltimore light railway from Glen Burnie to Oriole park with my son to a baseball game. Crowded for b-ball. It is pretty cool, though.

[E-man]

Up in Marin county by SF they just approved this kind of system:



http://www.marinij.com/marinnews/ci_11572988

http://www.unimodal.com/

[noname]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "extremely unsafe" in that statement?

Accidents and electrocutions... trams are notorious.


I should note that Baltimore is another city that I personally know of with a "light rail" system... Savannah boy mentioned San Fran... forgot about that one too, but never been so couldn't speak from personal experience on that.

Trams in various forms are extremely popular in Europe and are being used as solutions to reduce gridlock in several US cities. Many cities in the US that deal with surburban sprawl have begun developing park and ride initiatives e.g. Charlotte recently finished construction of a 15 station light rail system, Atlanta has a small system and they are looking to expand, San Diego has a system that is being expanded, Dallas, Sacramento, etc.  Once engineered correctly, they reduce GHG production and in most instances, decrease transit time.

With respect to safety, I disagree with your assessment. Several studies have shown that instances of tram accidents actually decrease as the population becomes familiar with practices. Additionally, it appears that pedestrians in general (both US and Europe) have less respect for light rail systems than for buses. High rates of accidents at stops, crossings and stations result from people jumping out in front of the vehicle assuming it has a shorter stop distance. Even with that, modern rail systems have a much lower fatality risk per vehicle per mile than bus systems which is remarkable considering the fact that bus systems cover far more distance than rail systems.
Another reason for the seeming bad reputation of tram systems is the extent of injury once an incident does occur. Most of those vehicles are not equipped with protective shielding to reduce exposure to the iron wheels which are much less forgiving than bus tyres.

As for electrocution risks, I'm not aware of peer reviewed studies that compare to other modes of public transportation.

[Bakes]

Trams in various forms are extremely popular in Europe and are being used as solutions to reduce gridlock in several US cities. Many cities in the US that deal with surburban sprawl have begun developing park and ride initiatives e.g. Charlotte recently finished construction of a 15 station light rail system, Atlanta has a small system and they are looking to expand, San Diego has a system that is being expanded, Dallas, Sacramento, etc.  Once engineered correctly, they reduce GHG production and in most instances, decrease transit time.

Okay... so there are other ancillary benefits to trams. 

How does any of the above disprove the notion that they pose a safety risk?

With respect to safety, I disagree with your assessment. Several studies have shown that instances of tram accidents actually decrease as the population becomes familiar with practices. Additionally, it appears that pedestrians in general (both US and Europe) have less respect for light rail systems than for buses. High rates of accidents at stops, crossings and stations result from people jumping out in front of the vehicle assuming it has a shorter stop distance.

I'm not sure how any of this helps your argument.  I never said trams are inherently dangerous in themselves (risk of electrocution aside)... the same way guns aren't inherently dangerous.  In the hands of the wrong individual a gun becomes dangerous.  Put into the wrong situation trams become dangerous.  Even if you put the fault for the accidents on the population that, only concedes the danger of the mix, rather than disproving it.  You don't throw trams into the fray and hope to educate the population afterwards.  What's an acceptable accident rate until the population learns to live with trams?

Even with that, modern rail systems have a much lower fatality risk per vehicle per mile than bus systems which is remarkable considering the fact that bus systems cover far more distance than rail systems.

There's something amiss with this statement... maybe you meant to state the opposite, because if bus systems cover more miles than tram systems then it's totally understandable that greater exposure to the public would result in higher accident rates as well.

Another reason for the seeming bad reputation of tram systems is the extent of injury once an incident does occur. Most of those vehicles are not equipped with protective shielding to reduce exposure to the iron wheels which are much less forgiving than bus tyres.

Again... at pain of sounding like a broken record, I'm not sure how that disproves my assertion that trams are a safety risk.

As for electrocution risks, I'm not aware of peer reviewed studies that compare to other modes of public transportation.

Most of my knowledge of this is based on anecdotal evidence... reports in newspapers, magazines etc.  Not sure if there's even been any actual studies.

----------

On balance trams are more desirable than buses, particularly where the impact on the environment is concerned.  However lost in all this is the impact on the power grid that trams would have on Trinidad... a place where outtages and rolling blackouts (unless I'm mistaken) are still fairly prevalent.  Additionally, are trams really an option in a place like POS where flooding is still rampant?  Development has only served to exacerbate the problem rather than alleviate it... so fair to assume that flooding would pose a greater obstacle than it did during earlier implementations of the trolley/tram system.

[noname]

Trams in various forms are extremely popular in Europe and are being used as solutions to reduce gridlock in several US cities. Many cities in the US that deal with surburban sprawl have begun developing park and ride initiatives e.g. Charlotte recently finished construction of a 15 station light rail system, Atlanta has a small system and they are looking to expand, San Diego has a system that is being expanded, Dallas, Sacramento, etc.  Once engineered correctly, they reduce GHG production and in most instances, decrease transit time.

Okay... so there are other ancillary benefits to trams. 

How does any of the above disprove the notion that they pose a safety risk?

Those examples were provided for the gratification of others who are reading the thread as well as draw attention to the fact that trams are a common option. No point to make or take re: safety.

With respect to safety, I disagree with your assessment. Several studies have shown that instances of tram accidents actually decrease as the population becomes familiar with practices. Additionally, it appears that pedestrians in general (both US and Europe) have less respect for light rail systems than for buses. High rates of accidents at stops, crossings and stations result from people jumping out in front of the vehicle assuming it has a shorter stop distance.

I'm not sure how any of this helps your argument.  I never said trams are inherently dangerous in themselves (risk of electrocution aside)... the same way guns aren't inherently dangerous.  In the hands of the wrong individual a gun becomes dangerous.  Put into the wrong situation trams become dangerous.  Even if you put the fault for the accidents on the population that, only concedes the danger of the mix, rather than disproving it.  You don't throw trams into the fray and hope to educate the population afterwards.  What's an acceptable accident rate until the population learns to live with trams?

I think we both agree that all public transportation options have inherent risks. I however, disagree with your assertion that trams are not common because they are somehow more unsafe than other options. Since buses are the primary alternative to tram systems, I thought it would be worth comparing them to show that even though buses appear to have a higher incident rate, they are quite common. As trams become more common, incident rates will undoubtedly increase but based on the information that is widely available, its does not appear that safety considerations will hinder their implementation. The primary reason for them being uncommon is the infrastructure required. Take it for what its worth.
As for education, it is necessary but you can only explain so much. When we fly on a plane, we are directed to the safety booklet. Studies have shown that 50% of people choose not to read the information. Bad analogy but the point is, sometimes the old saying, who doh hear does feel, applies.
Within that context, whats an acceptable accident rate? I'm not privy to the risk analyses performed in T&T but it would differ per location. In some aspects, an acceptable rate would be one lower than the current primary mode of transportation but again, it would differ per locality.

Even with that, modern rail systems have a much lower fatality risk per vehicle per mile than bus systems which is remarkable considering the fact that bus systems cover far more distance than rail systems.

There's something amiss with this statement... maybe you meant to state the opposite, because if bus systems cover more miles than tram systems then it's totally understandable that greater exposure to the public would result in higher accident rates as well.
Incidence rates for trams are lower as compared to buses that travel the same distance with similar population densities.

Another reason for the seeming bad reputation of tram systems is the extent of injury once an incident does occur. Most of those vehicles are not equipped with protective shielding to reduce exposure to the iron wheels which are much less forgiving than bus tyres.

Again... at pain of sounding like a broken record, I'm not sure how that disproves my assertion that trams are a safety risk.

My point here is to show that public perception can significantly alter what we think is safe vs. unsafe.


As for electrocution risks, I'm not aware of peer reviewed studies that compare to other modes of public transportation.

Most of my knowledge of this is based on anecdotal evidence... reports in newspapers, magazines etc.  Not sure if there's even been any actual studies.
There are numerous peer reviewed studies that examine these issues.

----------

On balance trams are more desirable than buses, particularly where the impact on the environment is concerned.  However lost in all this is the impact on the power grid that trams would have on Trinidad... a place where outtages and rolling blackouts (unless I'm mistaken) are still fairly prevalent.  Additionally, are trams really an option in a place like POS where flooding is still rampant?  Development has only served to exacerbate the problem rather than alleviate it... so fair to assume that flooding would pose a greater obstacle than it did during earlier implementations of the trolley/tram system.

The system that is being considered in Trinidad will be an elevated light rail/monorail system. As I alluded to earlier, infrastructure is the common limiting factor. There was a thread where we discussed the tendering process extensively and I was completely against the procedure used by the ministry at that time because there were no feasibility studies performed. As a result, limitations with respect to access due to flooding, power supplies, security, land access, connection options etc are still largely unknown to the general population. We can agree that if we do not do the relevant groundwork, our good intentions can pave the road to hell aka debt.

[Bakes]

Fair post noname... I understand and agree with the central thrust regarding public education and considering alternative transportation options.

[WestCoast]

Up in Marin county by SF they just approved this kind of system:



http://www.marinij.com/marinnews/ci_11572988

http://www.unimodal.com/

That looking real dimfront indeed
what about safety in each pod?

[sammy]

wow.... i love those old pics of T&T

great thread!

[Dutty]

Them old time trams look real nice...open air 'motoring' and plenty leg room
Even the conductors was dressed nice....but dem must have been sweatin like hell