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Author Topic: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T  (Read 12470 times)

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Offline Babalawo

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2009, 08:10:20 AM »
I really wonder why they did away with it.  Transport Systems like that provide a lot of jobs and it safe.  Yuh pay with tokens and tickets these days.  Yuh cyah rob dem.  Yuh have to rob de tram car station where police waiting for yuh.  What we have now is PH Drivers filling de gaps in our transport system and getting kill.

good points

Offline Savannah boy

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2009, 04:23:39 PM »
Accidents and electrocutions.

Accident is human error.  I never hear anybody get shock in SF even dem chupid youth who does jump on de back bumpers and pull down one or both of the poles that connected to the electric wires above to stop de vehicle for kicks and run off.

Offline fishs

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2009, 02:26:06 AM »


 There are many reasons why the trams could not be sustained in TT.
1. Lot more traffic now as then . ( Especially delvery type vehicles)
2. Change in demographics. ( The city has expanded outwards )
3. Infrastructure upgrades necessary.
4. The HV lines that are normally at a low level would impact on the safe use of larger vehicles.
5. The volumes that it could sustain.
6. The road network having to adapt or being designed to accommodate .
7. There are inherent safety issues to cater for. ( The dislodged connectors are normally re-connected by the operator using a pole and gloves , low level of maneuverability etc )

Most countries that have them still probably do so for the novelty or romanticsm of them
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Offline pecan

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2009, 06:54:29 AM »
Nice post  :beermug:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2009, 07:15:59 AM »


 There are many reasons why the trams could not be sustained in TT.
1. Lot more traffic now as then . ( Especially delvery type vehicles)

Maybe there would be less traffic if the trams were still in use???

2. Change in demographics. ( The city has expanded outwards )

Trams are not used for mass transit over large areas...it is primarily used to move people thru villages towns etc.

3. Infrastructure upgrades necessary.

So what?  Traffic, grid lock and pollution, may well be worth it

4. The HV lines that are normally at a low level would impact on the safe use of larger vehicles.

Stop those larger vehicles from entering the streets with trams!

5. The volumes that it could sustain.

Large amounts of traffic already pervasive, won't a tram alleviate some of that?  Workers, vendors, shoppers, school children

6. The road network having to adapt or being designed to accommodate .

engineers, put them to work

7. There are inherent safety issues to cater for. ( The dislodged connectors are normally re-connected by the operator using a pole and gloves , low level of maneuverability etc )

what tram is that boss, in some backward country?  Trams not like that again, if you see dem trams in Australia!  Modern trolleys often use a metal shoe with a carbon insert instead of a trolley wheel. Besides trams are making a comeback (light rail) all over the place!

Most countries that have them still probably do so for the novelty or romanticsm of them

NOPE!  Many have them for the necessity!

Offline Bakes

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2009, 10:50:39 AM »


 There are many reasons why the trams could not be sustained in TT.
1. Lot more traffic now as then . ( Especially delvery type vehicles)

Maybe there would be less traffic if the trams were still in use???

2. Change in demographics. ( The city has expanded outwards )

Trams are not used for mass transit over large areas...it is primarily used to move people thru villages towns etc.

3. Infrastructure upgrades necessary.

So what?  Traffic, grid lock and pollution, may well be worth it

4. The HV lines that are normally at a low level would impact on the safe use of larger vehicles.

Stop those larger vehicles from entering the streets with trams!

5. The volumes that it could sustain.

Large amounts of traffic already pervasive, won't a tram alleviate some of that?  Workers, vendors, shoppers, school children

6. The road network having to adapt or being designed to accommodate .

engineers, put them to work

7. There are inherent safety issues to cater for. ( The dislodged connectors are normally re-connected by the operator using a pole and gloves , low level of maneuverability etc )

what tram is that boss, in some backward country?  Trams not like that again, if you see dem trams in Australia!  Modern trolleys often use a metal shoe with a carbon insert instead of a trolley wheel. Besides trams are making a comeback (light rail) all over the place!

Most countries that have them still probably do so for the novelty or romanticsm of them

NOPE!  Many have them for the necessity!

So no delivery trucks allowed where trams run... but trams would have to run everywhere in order for them to be effectively utile to the population.  Therefore a ban on large vehicles would mean that there would be no commercial deliveries in high traffic areas.  High traffic areas are where most commerce is conducted and is both the cause and result of the commerce located there.  In short your proposal becomes self-defeating.

I could probably make similar counter-arguments for every other response you made to fishs points, but this stands out the most.

truetrini

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2009, 10:55:52 AM »
there will be accomodation for deliveries, roads run parallel to tram ways all the time.  No other traffic

Offline Bakes

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2009, 11:24:08 AM »
there will be accomodation for deliveries, roads run parallel to tram ways all the time.  No other traffic

You realized that this is Trinidad we talking about, right?  Congested-ass Port of Spain of the narrow, constricted antiquated streets?  Where they going and build all dem parallel roads... ontop ah buildings?  Underground?

Look, I all for anything that would alleviate traffic congestion and the impact on the environment.  However, I think many of us are talking about how trams have been implemented in other countries without keeping the relevant context in mind... there are specific challenges that are particular to Trinidad which complicates implementation there.

Offline fishs

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2009, 12:19:24 PM »
there will be accomodation for deliveries, roads run parallel to tram ways all the time.  No other traffic

You realized that this is Trinidad we talking about, right?  Congested-ass Port of Spain of the narrow, constricted antiquated streets?  Where they going and build all dem parallel roads... ontop ah buildings?  Underground?

Look, I all for anything that would alleviate traffic congestion and the impact on the environment.  However, I think many of us are talking about how trams have been implemented in other countries without keeping the relevant context in mind... there are specific challenges that are particular to Trinidad which complicates implementation there.

That is my point entirely.
You can compare apples to mangoes.
Name one street in Trinidad and Tobago that could accommodate this system of transport now ?
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2009, 12:41:39 PM »
The streets are the same. We certainly would not be able to park cars if the tram was still in services.

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2009, 02:31:42 PM »
you do realize that there are two lanes and sometimes three in POS right?

Parking cars?  thats what we dont want, we want the roads to be free and clear and open!

Therre are many roads in England that have stores lining them on either side yet no vehicles can enter them.

A VERY simple solution would be to have deliveries ONLY at a certain time!  Problem solved!


Offline Savannah boy

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2009, 02:54:03 PM »
what tram is that boss, in some backward country?  Trams not like that again

The man might be referring to trolley buses which are quite common in developed countries.

The thing is dat people wonder why we got rid of the system in T&T in the first place.  The sytem was efficient.  You did not have to drive yourself and the flood of Taxis, Maxis and man who pulling bull with PH car is the resulting attempt to fill that vacuum.  Now you talking about parking and traffic.  This could have been avoided with planning and simple upgrading.  Going electric these days and avoiding gas and diesel is not going counter to what is required nowadays.  It was a blown opportunity in hindsight I admit.

Other major cities and countries upgraded their systems.  The idea is to keep cars off the streets.  Now you would find large buildings with multiple floors only for parking in cities like these, something that is not common in T&T particularly in P.O.S.  As TT indicated, you could restrict the times for parking.  During commute hours there is no parking allowed on major streets to assist public transportation in many cities.

Offline Dutty

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2009, 02:59:11 PM »
you do realize that there are two lanes and sometimes three in POS right?

Parking cars?  thats what we dont want, we want the roads to be free and clear and open!

Therre are many roads in England that have stores lining them on either side yet no vehicles can enter them.

A VERY simple solution would be to have deliveries ONLY at a certain time!  Problem solved!



in that case, T&T woudnt have to spend money on light rail to improve the traffic situation....just some prudent city planning

I was readin in greece cars with certain plates are allowed to enter the city on certain days (mon, wed etc)
of course in trini...there is the issue of enforcement

readin through the posts..I and all gettin tie up...is the idea here to bring back trolleys..as in..tracks laid into the street?
or just a light rail..which can be suspended overhead
Little known fact: The online transportation medium called Uber was pioneered in Trinidad & Tobago in the 1960's. It was originally called pullin bull.

Offline E-man

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2009, 05:31:29 PM »
Not sure about the trolley lines, but the Trinidad Railway was last run by Eric James who was also the football czar before Jack Warner. Here are some stories:

14 May 1933:

Future of Trinidad's Government Railway

It is officially stated that a proposal to amalgamate the Trinidad Government Railway and the Public Works Department is at present under consideration.

As already reported, the Hon. M. A. Murphy, Director of Public Works will retire in the next three months and if the amalgamation is effected it is likely that the new Director of Public Works will be a transport specialist.

In semi-official circles it is believed that this amalgamation proposal is the outcome of certain recommendations made in the Report on the working of the Railway by Mr. A. S. Cooper, the Railway expert who recently visited Trinidad.

Mr. Cooper's report on the Trinidad Government Railway is still being held as a confidential paper, although his report on the Demerara transport system, surveyed after he left Trinidad, was issued some time ago."

26 April 1956:

Railway Abolition Urged, UK expert sees 'chaotic traffic'

PORT OF SPAIN, April 26: The report of the British Transport consultant, Mr. Arthur Jessop, who spent nine weeks here, proposes the gradual closing down and eventual complete abolition of the 80-year-old Trinidad Government Railway system.

Mr. Jessop refers to the serious decline in passenger traffic, plus a stagnant goods traffic situation which cost the Railway 18 million dollars in the last 11 years.

Drastic economies failed to help, and even with modernisation and continuation of the system in a modified form it will continue to be a liability on public funds, Mr. Jessop says.

He comments favourably on Trinidad's road development.

He says Trinidad and Tobago have 1.35 miles of road per square mile, and 250 people per square mile of road, compared with Jamaica's 1.07 and 338, respectively, and Britain's 2.00 and 277.

He calls for action to deal with the "chaotic traffic situation" by regulating the licensing of taxis in accordance with need plus regulation of taxi drivers' licenses.

He adds that the unfair and wasteful taxi competition is threatening to stultify bus enterprise, and suggests operation of double-decker buses on suitable routes, also a one-man bus operation, with the driver acting as conductor.

Centralising of the existing bus services has also been recommended.

12 July 1961:

Fifteen hurt in Trinidad rail mishap

PORT OF SPAIN, July 12: An after-lunch train laden with workers from Tunapuna, about eight miles away in east Trinidad derailed in Port of Spain yesterday. Fifteen persons were injured.

As the train was coming to a halt in Port of Spain, a heavy metal coupling on one of the five cars drawn by a diesel powered engine, snapped. The cars jumped the track and crushed into one another; women screamed and panicked.

Engineers of the Trinidad Government Railways immediately investigated and said that they were puzzled at the cause of the derailment. Workers of the Arima Bus Company operating along the East of Trinidad route from Port of Spain have been on strike two days now.

An inquiry is to be held into the derailment.

25 August 1961:

Trinidad rail strike set for Monday

PORT OF SPAIN, Aug. 25: The acting general manager of the Trinidad Government Railway, Mr. Eric James is expected to have a strike on his hands from Monday.

An executive of the Civil Service Association has set the walkout for that day to protest the re-employment of a penionser, Mr. C. Bastien, as a temporary traffic officer at the railway.

Mr. Bastien was re-employed in May and since then the C.S.A. has been seeking termination of his appointment.

In announcing the strike date, the .C.S.A. pointed out: "the association has to take step with much reluctance and regret but the association is now convinced that all means of bringing this dispute to an amicable settlement have been used by the association without success."

26 August 1961:

Trinidad rail strike off

PORT OF SPAIN, Aug. 26: The threatened strike at the Trinidad Government Railway is off, as Mr. Cecil Bastien, a pensioner, has been removed from the department.

A circular signed by the acting manager, Mr. Eric James, and sent to the Railway Department of the C.S.A. states: "I am directed by the Ministry of Finance to inform you that Mr. Cecil Bastien, temporary traffic officer attached to the railway from June 1, has ceased to fill the capacity as a result of being called to a special assignment in the Ministry of Finance.

Filling the post of temporary traffic officer will engage the attention of the Railway Board."


24 November 1961

James named Railway manager

PORT OF SPAIN, Nov. 24: MR. ERIC JAMES, Secretary of the Caribbean Football Association, has been appointed General Manager of Trinidad Government Railway, a post in which he has been acting from March 29.


Class 109 Wickham 2-car sets

The first sets entered traffic in the autumn of 1957. They were surplus soon after introduction, and being a 'non-standard' design allowed BR to sell back two sets in September 1961 at the request of Wickham & Co who had overseas buyers for them, the Trinidad Government Railway. They were exported to Trinidad & Tobago, and they operated the 'Last Train to San Fernando' as immortalised in the song. By 1980 at least one car had been grounded and used as a road side cafe!


Locomotive Of The Royal Train -1880
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 05:50:27 PM by E-man »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2009, 09:25:21 PM »
you do realize that there are two lanes and sometimes three in POS right?

Parking cars?  thats what we dont want, we want the roads to be free and clear and open!

Therre are many roads in England that have stores lining them on either side yet no vehicles can enter them.

A VERY simple solution would be to have deliveries ONLY at a certain time!  Problem solved!



You just arguing fuh de sake of arguing yes.

How many of these two and three (which essentially means 4 and 6 lanes for two-way traffic) lane streets are there in POS?  Or are we only going to have limited tram service... restricted to the rare arteries that offers these multiple lanes?

These streets in England you're talking about, I don't know about them... never been.  However, I'm sure that like in the US, there are alleys and backstreets to allow for deliveries.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2009, 09:27:11 PM »
you do realize that there are two lanes and sometimes three in POS right?

Parking cars?  thats what we dont want, we want the roads to be free and clear and open!

Therre are many roads in England that have stores lining them on either side yet no vehicles can enter them.

A VERY simple solution would be to have deliveries ONLY at a certain time!  Problem solved!



in that case, T&T woudnt have to spend money on light rail to improve the traffic situation....just some prudent city planning

I was readin in greece cars with certain plates are allowed to enter the city on certain days (mon, wed etc)
of course in trini...there is the issue of enforcement

readin through the posts..I and all gettin tie up...is the idea here to bring back trolleys..as in..tracks laid into the street?
or just a light rail..which can be suspended overhead

Light rail still runs on tracks in the streets, I think you're referring to elevated trams/cars.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2009, 09:32:10 PM »
12 July 1961:

Fifteen hurt in Trinidad rail mishap

PORT OF SPAIN, July 12: An after-lunch train laden with workers from Tunapuna, about eight miles away in east Trinidad derailed in Port of Spain yesterday. Fifteen persons were injured.

As the train was coming to a halt in Port of Spain, a heavy metal coupling on one of the five cars drawn by a diesel powered engine, snapped. The cars jumped the track and crushed into one another; women screamed and panicked.

Engineers of the Trinidad Government Railways immediately investigated and said that they were puzzled at the cause of the derailment. Workers of the Arima Bus Company operating along the East of Trinidad route from Port of Spain have been on strike two days now.

An inquiry is to be held into the derailment.


So what dey trying to insinuate?









 :rotfl:

truetrini

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2009, 09:48:56 PM »
you do realize that there are two lanes and sometimes three in POS right?

Parking cars?  thats what we dont want, we want the roads to be free and clear and open!

Therre are many roads in England that have stores lining them on either side yet no vehicles can enter them.

A VERY simple solution would be to have deliveries ONLY at a certain time!  Problem solved!



You just arguing fuh de sake of arguing yes.

How many of these two and three (which essentially means 4 and 6 lanes for two-way traffic) lane streets are there in POS?  Or are we only going to have limited tram service... restricted to the rare arteries that offers these multiple lanes?

These streets in England you're talking about, I don't know about them... never been.  However, I'm sure that like in the US, there are alleys and backstreets to allow for deliveries.

Like you eh from Trinidad or wha?

The roads are ALL one way in POS fella and in South too!  so is 3 lanes going in one direction, haul yuh Grenadian backside

Offline Bitter

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2009, 11:18:35 PM »
If I were to imagine a light rail system in T&T there would be 2 types, an intercity connector, that would link major population areas, and an inner-city service - what we're calling trams here.

An inner-city service would have to replace cars, not to operate alongside them. Delivery vehicles would still operate and be unaffected by overhead lines which should be high enough to allow trucks to pass. Rails can be set more-or-less flush to the street surface allowing cars and trams to operate on the same roadway.

You also don't need them to operate on every street, only close enough to be able to comfortable walk to a stop.  A loop around Independance, Henry, Gordon and St Vincent would cover from Nelson street to Richmond, as well as the blocks it encloses.

The real trick is to find parking for cars coming to the city.
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Offline capodetutticapi

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2009, 11:45:39 PM »


The real trick is to find parking for cars coming to the city.

ez.eradicate de slums they call de beetham and construct ah multi story parkin facility and have ah shuttle system put in place or them tram cars goin into de heart ah town.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:47:22 PM by capodetutticapi »
soon ah go b ah lean mean bulling machine.

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2009, 11:46:40 PM »
If I were to imagine a light rail system in T&T there would be 2 types, an intercity connector, that would link major population areas, and an inner-city service - what we're calling trams here.

An inner-city service would have to replace cars, not to operate alongside them. Delivery vehicles would still operate and be unaffected by overhead lines which should be high enough to allow trucks to pass. Rails can be set more-or-less flush to the street surface allowing cars and trams to operate on the same roadway.

You also don't need them to operate on every street, only close enough to be able to comfortable walk to a stop.  A loop around Independance, Henry, Gordon and St Vincent would cover from Nelson street to Richmond, as well as the blocks it encloses.

The real trick is to find parking for cars coming to the city.


EXACTLY!

Offline just cool

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2009, 02:41:03 AM »
Alluh could real argue boy, like allyuh can't see back then they didn't have much vehicles so the tramcar and trains was necessary.only when motor vehicles started getting prevalent there was no need for the trams anymore.

but it looks like cars and trams got along fine back then BC only the rich could've afford ah car back in the early 1900.
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Offline fishs

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2009, 03:28:53 AM »
Alluh could real argue boy, like allyuh can't see back then they didn't have much vehicles so the tramcar and trains was necessary.only when motor vehicles started getting prevalent there was no need for the trams anymore.

but it looks like cars and trams got along fine back then BC only the rich could've afford ah car back in the early 1900.

 This the rumshop part of the forum.

Men talking bout trains, trams, trolleys, sky train, rapid rail, trucks et al , ah just waiting for religion and sex talk to start here.
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline pecan

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Re: Tramways and Trolleys in T&T
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2009, 12:12:16 PM »
Alluh could real argue boy, like allyuh can't see back then they didn't have much vehicles so the tramcar and trains was necessary.only when motor vehicles started getting prevalent there was no need for the trams anymore.

but it looks like cars and trams got along fine back then BC only the rich could've afford ah car back in the early 1900.

 This the rumshop part of the forum.

Men talking bout trains, trams, trolleys, sky train, rapid rail, trucks et al , ah just waiting for religion and sex talk to start here.

some Gods dont like you having sex in a tram or trolley
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline dtool

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GOOD INFO
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2009, 09:48:28 AM »

 

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