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Author Topic: Was Lincoln a Racist?  (Read 16859 times)

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truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2009, 06:56:38 PM »
Are you aware that Lincoln wanted to swt up a national convention to amend the constitution so as to redress southern grievances?  The House of reps set up a committee of 33 with one congressman from each state to deal with the looming crisis.  Tas slaves."he commotteeproposed admission of New Mexico as a state, more stringent enforecemnet of the fugitive Slave act, repeal of the personal liberty laws enacted by northern states to prevent slave owners from retreiving slaves, and the adoption of a constitutional amendment preventing further interference with the slave trade!
Lincoln did not think that the sates should secede, except through permission from the other states in the Union.  He wrote saying;  "No state can, in any way lawfully, get out of the union without the consent of the others...

Lincoln had alaways accepted the constitutionality of the Fugitive Slave Law and to please southern sympathies, he was willing to see it more stingently enforced, with provisions for the "usual safeguards of liberty, securing free men from against being surrendered as slaves."

As for southern concern over the abolition of slavery, Lincoln wrote Seward saying:  "I care little, so that what is done is comely, and altogehter outrageous."  he was willing to allow New Mexico to be admitted as a slave state."if further extension were hedged against."


And that is from my own studies on Lincoln and not no google shit yuh always accusing me about!

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2009, 08:27:32 PM »
I glad you in de profession..so was The Supreme court who validated ownership rights of slave holders.

talk done!

...and what does that say?  Another Supreme Court ruled that segregation was okay as long as facilities were "separate but equal" in Plessy v. Ferguson... and yet another Court ruled that segregation was wrong in Brown v. Board of Education.

You simply running out of arguments to make so yuh talking fuh talking sake now.


not at all.  You are the one looking to argue that slavery was unconstitutional!  It was not, it was perfectly legal during Lincoln's time.

When one court makes a ruling is it not law until another court overturns that rling?

steups..look who arguing.

This is the last thing I will say on this, I'm not going to bother carrying on b/c I've tried to explain to you several times:

NOT BECAUSE SOMETHING IS LEGAL, DOES IT MEAN THAT IT'S CONSTITUTIONAL.  There have been many instances in American history where things were both 'legal' and unconstitutional.  This isn't Bakes' words... this is current American jurisprudence.

I figure since you like capital letters and all that might make it easier for you.  Aside from that there is a split in how the Constitution is interpreted, you have the Textualists, like Conservatives like Scalia and Thomas... and you have those in favor of a more Contextual interpretation of the Constitution... looking beyond the actual words of the Constitution, to find 'constitutional' rights, such as a woman's right to choose.

If this final explanation doesn't move or satisfy you then you might get more answers here:  www.lsac.org
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 08:29:03 PM by Bake n Shark »

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2009, 08:59:16 PM »
TC and Bake,
                    This is one of the most stimulating and intellectual debates despites the few invectives thrown at one another. Keep it going though.If  TT needs new politician I would certainly recommend all yuh. The one thing about Lincoln setting a bad precedent for habeus corpus and as it relates to Bush. Rightly or wrongly Bush used the fear of terrorist threat which indeed happen on 9/11 to suspend rights. But Lincoln was facing a genuine split of the country. And the country did split and had one of the bloodiest cicvil wars in history.Is this a case of "the ends justifies the means".

Deeks, outside ah de invectives I'm happy to see that you could distill that one simple fact.  The Constitution allows for suspension of habeas corpus under special circumstances.  For those like you who were reading and who might be confused about this habeas thing and why it's a big deal... essential if arrested, a writ of habeas corpus forces the authorities to bring you before a judge and justify your detention to that judge.  So if habeas corpus is suspended, the government then could lock you up indefinitely and not even charge you with a crime or explain what crime yuh commit (sounds familiar?).

You hit it spot on... according to the Constitution during times of rebellion habeas can be properly suspended... because as you said "the end justifies the means" during emergency times.  The only question is who has the authority to suspend it and the issue is muddied by the fact that both Congress and the Executive have War Powers.  Lincoln was treading new territory (because no one else had ever Presided during a rebellion to have to suspend habeas corpus before) and so the issue of him doing it was controversial.  In fact it remained so controversial that the question remained unanswered until 4 yrs ago when Hamdi sued the US government to justify his detention as a US citizen not caught up in the hostilities.  The Supreme Court ruled then that only if Congress grants special dispensation to the President, can he unilaterally suspend habeas corpus.  

So if you apply today's laws to Lincoln's actions of course what he did then was against the law today, but we know that that isn't how the law works... in fact even the US Constitution prohibits the adoption of post facto laws: meaning you can't charge a man with a crime for doing something, which at the time he did it wasn't illegal.  Bush on the other hand, had neither the special dispensation from Congress to suspend habeas corpus... nor was there rebellion in the US to justify its suspension.  What Bush and dem try was what we in Trinidad would call ah "smart ting"... in the wake of 9/11 Congress was very deferential towards Bush because nobody wanted to rock the patriotic boat.  Whatever Bush asked for many in Congress gave.  In 2001 they passed an emergency resolution called the Authorization for Use of Military Force (the AUMF, yuh could look it up)... this single act is what caused America to be where it is today, because 8 years later Bush used that as an excuse to do all manner ah f**kkery including suspending civil liberties and trampling over others, all in the name of these "emergency powers".  Now mind you the AUMF never authorized half the shit that Bush did, it only authorized foreign use of military force to battle the Taliban and Al Qaeda... but Bush (really CheneyRumsfeldfRice, he puppet masters) argue that because this is ah special kinda war and it have sympathizers here in the US they have to use emergency powers domestically as well.  Lincoln never did any such thing, he only applied powers which he either legitimately had, or which he honestly felt he was legitimately entitled to.

That Hamdi case was just the first of many steps this country have to take in undoing the f**kkery that Bush do.  It have others, the Supreme Court slap him down in Hamdan v. Bush as well... and just last October one of my mentors, ah man who write ah recommendation fuh me, US District Court Judge Ricardo Urbina (could look him up too), ruled that the Bush Administration had to free the Uighurs who were being held in detention illegally.  7 yrs they hold dem people and never charge dem with a crime.  Right now that decision is on appeal before the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia.  So is not like I doh know what ah talking about, it have thing that simply wouldn't be properly explained to you on the internet, yuh have to dig inside the case to understand what went on/going on.

Does Article I of the US Constitution not enumerate the powers ascribed to CONGRESS?  Show me where it says that the President can act as a dictator and suspend the writ of Liberty anywhere in the constitution?

It is clear that Congress ALONE had that right!

The Power to Suspend Habeas Corpus: An Answer from the Arguments Surrounding Ex Parte Merryman

Jeffrey D. Jackson
Washburn University - School of Law



University of Baltimore Law Review, Vol. 34, pp. 11-54, 2004

Abstract:     
The question of which political branch has the power to suspend the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus is a classic constitutional separation of powers question with important consequences for civil liberties. However, the one case squarely addressing the question, Chief Justice Roger B. Taney's opinion in Ex Parte Merryman concerning Lincoln's suspension of the writ during the Civil War, is cited more often as a confrontation of personal wills rather than a valid legal analysis. Although history tends to assume that Taney's opinion was correct as a matter of law, while Lincoln's refusal to acknowledge the opinion was correct as a matter of necessity, the question itself remains unsettled. However, a correct answer to the question is vitally important, as recent events in the war on terror threaten to undermine civil liberties.

This article attempts to determine which branch of government has the power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus through an in-depth analysis of the legal arguments surrounding Ex Parte Merryman. In conducting this analysis, it first provides a detailed recitation of the facts surrounding Taney's opinion in Merryman and Lincoln's disregard of that opinion. It then examines the framing and ratification of the Suspension Clause, and the strengths and weaknesses of various legal theories regarding which branch possesses the suspension power, paying special attention to the theories put forth by legal commentators of the period regarding the question. Ultimately, the article concludes that the power to suspend habeas corpus can only reside with Congress, and that the President has no independent power, even in time of emergency, to suspend. Finally, the article examines the relevance of the answer to the question, and its implications today./b]
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 09:34:00 PM by Trinity Cross »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2009, 11:47:17 PM »
Does Article I of the US Constitution not enumerate the powers ascribed to CONGRESS? 

Article I is where you find Congress' enumerated powers.  However that does not mean that everything in Article I is exclusively the purview of Congress... as the last 140 yrs of controversy has shown.

Show me where it says that the President can act as a dictator and suspend the writ of Liberty anywhere in the constitution?

Show me where it says IN THE CONSTITUTION that the President cannot suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus...

It is clear that Congress ALONE had that right!


...yeah it so clear that it take legal scholars 140 years of debate before the Supreme Court finally decided the case in 2004. 

Quote
The Power to Suspend Habeas Corpus: An Answer from the Arguments Surrounding Ex Parte Merryman
     
The question of which political branch has the power to suspend the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus is a classic constitutional separation of powers question...

...Although history tends to assume that Taney's opinion was correct as a matter of law, while Lincoln's refusal to acknowledge the opinion was correct as a matter of necessity, the question itself remains unsettled. /b]

...In fact it remained so controversial that the question remained unanswered until 4 yrs ago when Hamdi sued the US government to justify his detention as a US citizen not caught up in the hostilities.  The Supreme Court ruled then that only if Congress grants special dispensation to the President, can he unilaterally suspend habeas corpus.

They shoulda juss send you ah PM fuh de answer instead since you know more than dem.

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2009, 12:09:07 AM »
legal scholars should ah jes listen to Justice Taney.

Even so, jes becasue noone challenged it properly does not mean that Lincoln did not act illegally.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 12:11:00 AM by Trinity Cross »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2009, 12:11:37 AM »
legal scholars should ah jes listen to Justice Taney.

Even so, jes becasue noone challenged it properly does not mean that Lincoln did not act illegally.

Yeah... dey shoulda lissen tuh him on Dred Scott too.

If Lincoln had acted "illegally" then it wouldn't have taken 140 yrs for the matter to be settled, now would it?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 12:19:09 AM by Bake n Shark »

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2009, 12:20:49 AM »
The most you can argue is that the slaveowners were denied the right to use their "property" as they wanted... but that goes on all the time, even today.  Zoning laws etc. prevent people from using their property as they want all the time... same for Covenants and Restrictions.  The principle is well-established, there is no absolute right to property, it's one of the prices we pay for being part of a greater community, some individual rights must be sacrificed in favor of the whole.

This is not applicable.

Zoning laws cannot be retroactively applied to a home owner or business or facility.  Neither can retrictive deeds and covenants, yuh feel is ah canuck yuh talking to or wha?

If the city, municipality or whatever decides to change zonig regulations the already existing structures are grandfathered in and exempt.

Besides when you buy, you have a choice because the zoning restrictions are made available as are covenants and deed restrictions!

Yuh have ah choice.  what choice did the slave owners have when they "lost " their property?

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2009, 01:34:53 AM »
The most you can argue is that the slaveowners were denied the right to use their "property" as they wanted... but that goes on all the time, even today.  Zoning laws etc. prevent people from using their property as they want all the time... same for Covenants and Restrictions.  The principle is well-established, there is no absolute right to property, it's one of the prices we pay for being part of a greater community, some individual rights must be sacrificed in favor of the whole.

This is not applicable.

Zoning laws cannot be retroactively applied to a home owner or business or facility.  Neither can retrictive deeds and covenants, yuh feel is ah canuck yuh talking to or wha?

If the city, municipality or whatever decides to change zonig regulations the already existing structures are grandfathered in and exempt.

Besides when you buy, you have a choice because the zoning restrictions are made available as are covenants and deed restrictions!

Yuh have ah choice.  what choice did the slave owners have when they "lost " their property?

What you say is true about retroactive application of zoning laws, but again you fail to see the forest, for the trees. 

I mentioned that to illustrate that property rights, indeed individual rights aren't absolute, but rather have to be circumscribed to apply within the communal context.  It's part of the price we pay for living as part of a society.  But don't take my word for it, I'm just a wanna-be lawyer, remember?  Just ask yourself this question, if the Emancipation of the slaves was so egregious an act that violated established laws, how come the poor victimized former slave-owners never sued to get 'just compensation' for their forcibly manumitted darkies?

Maybe because they didn't have a case.

Offline pecan

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2009, 07:09:37 AM »


They shoulda juss send you ah PM fuh de answer instead since you know more than dem.

Hawkins and Collins and the other 40% of scientists that are open to the existence fo a God should also PM TT because he seem to have the answers aready   :devil:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2009, 12:02:40 PM »
There is nothing in jurisprudence to sugest that the ends justify the means!  NUTTEN!

I have no sympathy for former slave owners, the debate was wether Lincoln acted illegally, to me it is obvious that he did on more than one occasion.


Morally was he right?  Definitely.  Legally...HELL NO!

I will give you credit for one thing, you are good at spinning and Is ee a bright future for you in law!  You love to argue and you are like a chameleon...you can change your position adroitly and with some measure of poise too.  Jes learn to cool down your temper.

Strictly according to the EXISTING laws, Justice was correct in both Dred Scott and on the issue of Lincoln's right to suspend the writ of habeas corpus.

The framers enumerated the powers for both Congress and the President and there were great pains to make sure that there were checks and balances.  Lincoln dID NOT HAVE the power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus as enumerated in the Constitution.

he 5th amendment clearly defines the right of property owners to be justly compensated for loss of their property for the common good or otherwise.

Spin it however you see fit, as a budding lawyer you need to separate your personal biases.  I have absolutely no sympathy for the slave owners, but the law is the law.

If Lincoln had the power to suspend the writ, then why did Congress come afterwards and give him the right?

Makes no sense....!

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2009, 12:04:10 PM »
legal scholars should ah jes listen to Justice Taney.

Even so, jes becasue noone challenged it properly does not mean that Lincoln did not act illegally.

Yeah... dey shoulda lissen tuh him on Dred Scott too.

If Lincoln had acted "illegally" then it wouldn't have taken 140 yrs for the matter to be settled, now would it?

So now that it ahs been settled, does the President have the right to suspend the writ?  NO!

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2009, 12:10:37 PM »
The most you can argue is that the slaveowners were denied the right to use their "property" as they wanted... but that goes on all the time, even today.  Zoning laws etc. prevent people from using their property as they want all the time... same for Covenants and Restrictions.  The principle is well-established, there is no absolute right to property, it's one of the prices we pay for being part of a greater community, some individual rights must be sacrificed in favor of the whole.

This is not applicable.

Zoning laws cannot be retroactively applied to a home owner or business or facility.  Neither can retrictive deeds and covenants, yuh feel is ah canuck yuh talking to or wha?

If the city, municipality or whatever decides to change zonig regulations the already existing structures are grandfathered in and exempt.

Besides when you buy, you have a choice because the zoning restrictions are made available as are covenants and deed restrictions!

Yuh have ah choice.  what choice did the slave owners have when they "lost " their property?

What you say is true about retroactive application of zoning laws, but again you fail to see the forest, for the trees. 

I mentioned that to illustrate that property rights, indeed individual rights aren't absolute, but rather have to be circumscribed to apply within the communal context.  It's part of the price we pay for living as part of a society.  But don't take my word for it, I'm just a wanna-be lawyer, remember?  Just ask yourself this question, if the Emancipation of the slaves was so egregious an act that violated established laws, how come the poor victimized former slave-owners never sued to get 'just compensation' for their forcibly manumitted darkies?

Maybe because they didn't have a case.

The south, that is the entire southern society were punished after the war, not only were they NOT compensated, a slew of laws were passed without their consent.  Theyw ere a vanquished people and had to tow the line.  After the civil war do you know how long it took for a southerner to get nominated to the supreme court?  To hold any office of significance? 


truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #102 on: February 17, 2009, 12:11:28 PM »


They shoulda juss send you ah PM fuh de answer instead since you know more than dem.

Hawkins and Collins and the other 40% of scientists that are open to the existence fo a God should also PM TT because he seem to have the answers aready   :devil:

They ahve scientists who beleive that blaks inferior to whites too.  Maybe they should PM you and get confimation!

Offline pecan

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #103 on: February 17, 2009, 01:09:29 PM »


They shoulda juss send you ah PM fuh de answer instead since you know more than dem.

Hawkins and Collins and the other 40% of scientists that are open to the existence fo a God should also PM TT because he seem to have the answers aready   :devil:

They ahve scientists who beleive that blaks inferior to whites too.  Maybe they should PM you and get confimation!

how de arse race get into this?  you getting desperate or what - playing the race card? 

I see you fail to respond to the other post I make in Darwin Thread.

btw: the small % of true scientists who feel that white superior to black are subject to peer review and that is why their works are generally shot down.

The scientists I quoting still reflect 40% of the population and for me, the science has not been settled.

And unlike you, I have never made a definitive statement about the existence of or non-existence of God.

YOU HAVE.  You should change your name to Mr. Know It All.


steups squared
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2009, 01:38:48 PM »


They shoulda juss send you ah PM fuh de answer instead since you know more than dem.

Hawkins and Collins and the other 40% of scientists that are open to the existence fo a God should also PM TT because he seem to have the answers aready   :devil:

They ahve scientists who beleive that blaks inferior to whites too.  Maybe they should PM you and get confimation!

how de arse race get into this?  you getting desperate or what - playing the race card? 

I see you fail to respond to the other post I make in Darwin Thread.

btw: the small % of true scientists who feel that white superior to black are subject to peer review and that is why their works are generally shot down.

The scientists I quoting still reflect 40% of the population and for me, the science has not been settled.

And unlike you, I have never made a definitive statement about the existence of or non-existence of God.

YOU HAVE.  You should change your name to Mr. Know It All.


steups squared

I not playing race cards, i am simply showing that scientists are man too...dey does make all kinda dotish claims.

If you choose to hold on to some hope that god exists den go for it....drug yuhself.

I for one know in my HEART AND BEING...dere is NO GOD!

I doh see what God have to do with a great discussion on the legalities of Lincoln's actions..why yuh decide to bring dat here?  And I am not a know it all..show me where I project dat anywhere?

I say it eh have no god and YOU take it upon yuhself to convince me dat some scientists fel that there MAY be one...good for dem and good for you.

I examined the evidence and came to that conclusion.

Look, the great thing about science is that they examine things logically, religion doh do dat is all emotion and based on some mythological mumbo jumbo written in books deemed to be the words of god.

Religion has forever declared war on science and exploration..ask yuhself why?

EVEN some scientists have declared maybe there is a god, and then go about trying to show why there may be one is far more advanced than religious leaders and there outright war on stem cell research etc.  no global warming shit.

by de way I eh fail to respond to any post in de darwin thread..I jes saw it and responded even before seeing yuh latest drivel here.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 01:45:04 PM by Trinity Cross »

Offline pecan

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #105 on: February 17, 2009, 01:54:49 PM »


They shoulda juss send you ah PM fuh de answer instead since you know more than dem.

Hawkins and Collins and the other 40% of scientists that are open to the existence fo a God should also PM TT because he seem to have the answers aready   :devil:

They ahve scientists who beleive that blaks inferior to whites too.  Maybe they should PM you and get confimation!

how de arse race get into this?  you getting desperate or what - playing the race card? 

I see you fail to respond to the other post I make in Darwin Thread.

btw: the small % of true scientists who feel that white superior to black are subject to peer review and that is why their works are generally shot down.

The scientists I quoting still reflect 40% of the population and for me, the science has not been settled.

And unlike you, I have never made a definitive statement about the existence of or non-existence of God.

YOU HAVE.  You should change your name to Mr. Know It All.


steups squared

I not playing race cards, i am simply showing that scientists are man too...dey does make all kinda dotish claims.

If you choose to hold on to some hope that god exists den go for it....drug yuhself.

I for one know in my HEART AND BEING...dere is NO GOD!

I doh see what God have to do with a great discussion on the legalities of Lincoln's actions..why yuh decide to bring dat here?  And I am not a know it all..show me where I project dat anywhere?

I say it eh have no god and YOU take it upon yuhself to convince me dat some scientists fel that there MAY be one...good for dem and good for you.

I examined the evidence and came to that conclusion.

Look, the great thing about science is that they examine things logically, religion doh do dat is all emotion and based on some mythological mumbo jumbo written in books deemed to be the words of god.

Religion has forever declared war on science and exploration..ask yuhself why?

EVEN some scientists have declared maybe there is a god, and then go about trying to show why there may be one is far more advanced than religious leaders and there outright war on stem cell research etc.  no global warming shit.

by de way I eh fail to respond to any post in de darwin thread..I jes saw it and responded even before seeing yuh latest drivel here.

I only brought it up here because Bakes make a snide comment about you knowing more than other experts in the field and I wanted to yank your chain as you project the same persona when it comes a belief in God.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #106 on: February 17, 2009, 02:25:00 PM »
There is nothing in jurisprudence to sugest that the ends justify the means!  NUTTEN!

I have no sympathy for former slave owners, the debate was wether Lincoln acted illegally, to me it is obvious that he did on more than one occasion.


Morally was he right?  Definitely.  Legally...HELL NO!

I will give you credit for one thing, you are good at spinning and Is ee a bright future for you in law!  You love to argue and you are like a chameleon...you can change your position adroitly and with some measure of poise too.  Jes learn to cool down your temper.

Strictly according to the EXISTING laws, Justice was correct in both Dred Scott and on the issue of Lincoln's right to suspend the writ of habeas corpus.

The framers enumerated the powers for both Congress and the President and there were great pains to make sure that there were checks and balances.  Lincoln dID NOT HAVE the power to suspend the writ of habeas corpus as enumerated in the Constitution.

he 5th amendment clearly defines the right of property owners to be justly compensated for loss of their property for the common good or otherwise.

Spin it however you see fit, as a budding lawyer you need to separate your personal biases.  I have absolutely no sympathy for the slave owners, but the law is the law.

If Lincoln had the power to suspend the writ, then why did Congress come afterwards and give him the right?

Makes no sense....!


I see you just intent on having the last word even though it's clear you have no clue what you're talking about.

You say there's nothing in jurisprudence to suggest that the end justifies the means... lol, which is just so laughably misinformed.  Every day I see it in my professional life, judges coming up with all manner of hair-brained reasoning to justify an outcome that they already predetermined.  Most notably I can point to Bush v. Gore.  I won't go into the unnecessary details but any impartial legal scholar can tell you that the rationale upon which that case was decided was complete bullshit.  The same goes for Dred Scott... using the Takings Clause to decide a case in which it was not implicated... that was an Equal Protection clause issue.  Show me where in the 5th amendment it says individuals have to be compensated for loss of property.  There's a reason why it's called the TAKINGS clause... you have yuh own constitution apparently so feel free to argue yuh Loss Clause or Lost Cause or whatever it is.

But again, what I know... I's juss de wanna-be lawyer while you apparently to go along with yuh supposed masters in Abraham Lincoln testiclology, yuh done have ah advanced law degree as well. 

Offline daryn

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #107 on: February 17, 2009, 02:31:29 PM »
  Most notably I can point to Bush v. Gore.  I won't go into the unnecessary details but any impartial legal scholar can tell you that the rationale upon which that case was decided was complete bullshit.

are you talking about the 7-2 decision or the 5-4 decision?  sorry to go off-topic.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #108 on: February 17, 2009, 03:03:21 PM »
  Most notably I can point to Bush v. Gore.  I won't go into the unnecessary details but any impartial legal scholar can tell you that the rationale upon which that case was decided was complete bullshit.

are you talking about the 7-2 decision or the 5-4 decision?  sorry to go off-topic.

The 5-4 decision... neatly split along ideological lines 'liberals' v. 'conservatives'.  They used an Equal Protection rationale  to say that the fact that each county essentially was re-tallying the votes their own way, that some people's votes weren't being afforded the same constitutional protection as others... but then the kicker, they say yeah it facked up but Fla. Constitution say that de votes must be certified within 45 days of balloting, so even if they wanted to rule on it it was too late.

In reality they sat on the discussions for two days and then issued their ruling hours outside the 45 day window so that they could put Bush in de White House.  The coward majority then had the gall to issue the ruling per curiam, deliberately cloaking the identity of the author of the opinion in mystery, so people wouldn't go piss on he grave (I know is either facking Rehnquist or Scalia) in perpetuity.

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #109 on: February 18, 2009, 09:09:28 AM »
Off-topic a bit, do you all find this to be racist? Ill-advised at the very least...
http://www.nypost.com/delonas/delonas.htm

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #110 on: February 18, 2009, 02:45:36 PM »
Off-topic a bit, do you all find this to be racist? Ill-advised at the very least...
http://www.nypost.com/delonas/delonas.htm

Maybe is just me... I almost dead when I see de cartoon. Still think it's mad funny. I understand how some could be offended, but I think this is a case of folks being too sensitive.

The stimulus bill is the biggest news of the year thus far. The poor chimp dying is one of the hot national stories right now. People have been very critical of the stimulus bill + congress pervading unpopularity with the average joe = an opportunity to imply that is only fools writing the stimulus bill and maybe is time to put them out to pature and get fresh ideas in there.

Some say it's Obama they talking about, but it's incorrect to say this is Obama's "idea" and his bill... he's pushing it, but his hands are tied by Congress. Each Democrat is trying to get something for his constituency in the bill... and to steal some shine from it. At the same time Republicans are trying to frustrate it... that's what causing much of the problem. Obama might be the face of the bill to most uninformed people, but this is no more his bill than was the last stimulus bill passed in December.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #111 on: February 18, 2009, 09:05:14 PM »
... and just last October one of my mentors, ah man who write ah recommendation fuh me, US District Court Judge Ricardo Urbina (could look him up too), ruled that the Bush Administration had to free the Uighurs who were being held in detention illegally.  7 yrs they hold dem people and never charge dem with a crime.  Right now that decision is on appeal before the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia.  

So the Appellate decision came down today...

Court Reverses Ruling Bringing 17 Detainees to U.S.


The courts have ruled that these men should be released, but the Government claim that there's no place to release them to... so the answer apparently is to keep holding them in indefinite detention.  Never see more shit so in my life.

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #112 on: February 18, 2009, 11:26:42 PM »
... and just last October one of my mentors, ah man who write ah recommendation fuh me, US District Court Judge Ricardo Urbina (could look him up too), ruled that the Bush Administration had to free the Uighurs who were being held in detention illegally.  7 yrs they hold dem people and never charge dem with a crime.  Right now that decision is on appeal before the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia.  

So the Appellate decision came down today...

Court Reverses Ruling Bringing 17 Detainees to U.S.


The courts have ruled that these men should be released, but the Government claim that there's no place to release them to... so the answer apparently is to keep holding them in indefinite detention.  Never see more shit so in my life.
reminds me a bit about Lincoln.

he arrested people who were sympathizers, not even enemy combatants, tried them by military tribunal, even when they were civilians.  Deported some from de North to the South, citizens mind you..deja vu all over again?

Ahhh boy dais when yuh try to give power to the president that reserved for Congress. 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 11:30:42 PM by Trinity Cross »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2009, 12:17:19 AM »
reminds me a bit about Lincoln.

he arrested people who were sympathizers, not even enemy combatants, tried them by military tribunal, even when they were civilians.  Deported some from de North to the South, citizens mind you..deja vu all over again?

Ahhh boy dais when yuh try to give power to the president that reserved for Congress. 

Poor Abraham Lincoln juss roll over in he grave... he trying hard to keep yuh from crawling up he ass again.

Not sure what yuh "power to the president" crack have to do with that story, seeing that nobody 'gave' any power to the President in this situation.  In case you didn't know it "sympathizing" with the enemy during times of war is grounds for treason... sounds like you might need to familiarize yuhself with the law... even civilians can be tried before a military tribunal during times of rebellion.  You should read up on it.

And don't even pretend that Congress can't authorize improper acts as well... any real historian would know that.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 12:18:55 AM by Bake n Shark »

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2009, 05:00:41 AM »
Just like any real wannabe lawyer would know Lincoln seized property without just compensation.

Lincoln eh have roo mup he ass ofr me seeing that you already occupy much ah dat space.
Doh get jealous me eh like man...dead or alive.

He is all yours.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #115 on: February 19, 2009, 11:54:21 AM »
Just like any real wannabe lawyer would know Lincoln seized property without just compensation.

Lincoln eh have roo mup he ass ofr me seeing that you already occupy much ah dat space.
Doh get jealous me eh like man...dead or alive.

He is all yours.

Maybe dai'z yuh problem... yuh couldn't get into law school so now yuh resorting to play lawyer on de internet, and only talking ah pack ah ass.  Swinging hard off Lincoln nuts talking 'bout you's ah Lincoln expert... yeah, yuh know from experience which way he hang.

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2009, 12:26:39 PM »
Just like any real wannabe lawyer would know Lincoln seized property without just compensation.

Lincoln eh have roo mup he ass ofr me seeing that you already occupy much ah dat space.
Doh get jealous me eh like man...dead or alive.

He is all yours.

Maybe dai'z yuh problem... yuh couldn't get into law school so now yuh resorting to play lawyer on de internet, and only talking ah pack ah ass.  Swinging hard off Lincoln nuts talking 'bout you's ah Lincoln expert... yeah, yuh know from experience which way he hang.

hahaha for yuor info I was ACCEPTED to law school, when I see you going to be a lawyer ah change meh mind...talking to you one ass hardly qualifies our discussion as me talking ah pack ah ass.

From experience yuh know much more about man balls dan me....shhhhhhh remember warmonga doh like bullers...he might done yuh

Offline Bakes

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #117 on: February 19, 2009, 12:44:59 PM »
hahaha for yuor info I was ACCEPTED to law school, when I see you going to be a lawyer ah change meh mind...talking to you one ass hardly qualifies our discussion as me talking ah pack ah ass.

From experience yuh know much more about man balls dan me....shhhhhhh remember warmonga doh like bullers...he might done yuh

Google University Skool of Law doh count... big belly bastard.

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #118 on: February 19, 2009, 01:14:22 PM »
hahaha for yuor info I was ACCEPTED to law school, when I see you going to be a lawyer ah change meh mind...talking to you one ass hardly qualifies our discussion as me talking ah pack ah ass.

From experience yuh know much more about man balls dan me....shhhhhhh remember warmonga doh like bullers...he might done yuh

Google University Skool of Law doh count... big belly bastard.

lol

yuh really grasping  Big belly....? who yuh really posting to.

truetrini

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Re: Was Lincoln a Racist?
« Reply #119 on: February 24, 2009, 12:02:30 AM »
Slavery is a prominent part of United States history. Slavery has existed for thousands of years in many cultures, but in the United States, the institution seemed to have been perfected. It also came at a time of enlightenment, when many began to see slavery not as the necessity that many felt it was, but as an evil exploitation of men.

From the time that Christopher Columbus arrived in the New World, slaves were as much a part of the settlement and economy as the settlers and the crops. But this was the normal state of affairs for much of the Western world. The African slave trade, which started in the 15th century, was begun by the Portuguese, but slavery among African tribes was common, as it was among the Native Americans that Columbus encountered in Hispaniola. The biggest difference between native slavery and the slavery brought by Europeans to Africa and the Caribbean was the scope and scale.

Going further back, ancient Rome is said to have been more dependent upon its slave labor than any society before or since. Some estimates place the slave population in Rome in the 1st century to be about a third. Slaves came mostly from conquered peoples. To a lesser degree, the children of slaves were also slaves. Kidnapping and piracy, as well as cross-culture purchase are also seen as likely sources. Finally, self-sale, slavery for debt, and slavery as punishment for crimes were also in place.

Lastly, as was often mentioned by American supporters of slavery, slavery is mentioned in the Bible. Therein, while it is not encouraged, it is acknowledged, and it is regulated.

Slavery, then, has a long, if ugly, history. In 21st century America, it is easy for us to look at our past and be disappointed, even disgusted, by slavery. In fact, it is right to do so. However, it must be understood in the historical context


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The Origin of Slavery

When examining the American slave trade, a "why" must first be determined. Why were the slaves brought from Africa, and not from, say, the Caribbean or South America? There are two schools of thought on this topic. The first is purely racial - that the color of skin of the African made him a target for the European traders. The other is that race had little to do with the beginning of the trade, but that pure economics dictated the source. Race, when it eventually did become a factor, came afterwards.

Initial colonization of the New World by England came in the Caribbean, such as on St. Kitts, and in Virginia. The primary concern of the English in the use of these lands was as a source of income. Tobacco was discovered and became wildly popular, and its cultivation became a priority. Tobacco agriculture requires lots and lots of land, and, in turn, lots of labor to work the land. The first workers were recruited servants from England itself. Lured by the promise of land at the end of their term of service, many indentured servants came. In the islands of the Caribbean, however, land was not limitless, as it seemed to be in Virginia to the north.

Settlers branched out from one island colony to another, with some inhabitants and workers moving from other islands and some coming from Britain. Similar colonization was happening with the French, whose laws did not permit indentured servitude to fill labor needs. The Dutch slave traders stepped in with a ready source - enslaved Africans. The English were quick to adopt this model for labor, and by the 1650s, the source of labor had switched from voluntary to involuntary. On Barbados, where tobacco failed as a crop, but where sugar cane and cotton grew well. Based on the Portuguese model in Brazil, Africans were brought in to work the crops such that by 1660, the slave-to-free ratio was about 50-50.

The Africans were slaves in fact and, eventually, in law. They did not have an end to their term of service as indentured servants did. There was no loss in profit when a number of years ran out. In addition, the wage levels for indentured servants had a strong upturn in the 1640s. The economics of slavery were obvious to the plantation owners.

This plays into slavery into America because by the mid-1660s, proprietors of the North American lands, from Virginia on south, were looking to profit from their lands just as had been done in the Caribbean. They wanted to attract settlers from England, but more so, they wanted to attract settlers from the Caribbean, who had already worked successful crops and were used to the climate. Certainly, they promoted the religious freedoms of the colonies, and the extension of English rights and liberties, but they also guaranteed property rights. And by this time, African slaves were property. As planters moved from Barbados to the Carolinas, they brought their slaves with them.

In Virginia, in the meantime, the cultivation of tobacco became of paramount importance. Over objections of the King to smoking, and over warnings concerning single-crop agriculture, the lure of profit fixated the settlers. Once they were able to take all the land they wished from the native Indian tribes, they were left with vast amounts of land to work. Indians proved too scattered and resistant to enslave in large numbers. Indentured servants were brought over from England, and they formed the backbone of Virginia labor until the 1680s. The thinking is that indentured servitude continued to be the more profitable way of acquiring labor - an African slave was simply more expensive. Some of the same forces that influenced the shift to African labor in the Caribbean came to Virginia. Though it came later, by 1710 the slavery system was so firmly established that it was a fully developed area of the law.

In 17th century Massachusetts, slavery was much less an important part of the economic structure, but it was, nonetheless, an important part of the social structure. The Puritans saw slavery as authorized by the Bible, and a natural part of society. However, the Puritans were also governed by a code of biblical conduct whereby slaves had some rights, and whereby the masters were presumed to be responsible not only for a slave's physical but also spiritual well-being. These factors made the life of a slave only slightly less onerous that those in Southern states. But the form of agriculture used in Massachusetts is probably more responsible for the relative lack of slaves in the North. Small farms, not large plantations, were the norm, and it was common to find the farmer working the fields alongside slaves. The tide would eventually turn, however, and by the time of the Constitutional Convention, Massachusetts had outlawed slavery.


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The Founding Fathers and the Constitution

By the time of the Constitutional Convention in 1787, slavery in the United States was a grim reality. In the census of 1790, there were slaves counted in nearly every state, with only Massachusetts and the "districts" of Vermont and Maine, being the only exceptions. In the entire country 3.8 million people were counted, 700,000 of them, or 18 percent, were slaves. In South Carolina, 43 percent of the population was slave. In Maryland 32 percent, and in North Carolina 26 percent. Virginia, with the largest slave population of almost 300,000, had 39 percent of its population made up of slaves.

In the Articles of Confederation, the nation's first constitution, there is not mention of slavery. The states were represented in Congress by state, with each state picking its own representatives, so population, which became critical in the future House of Representatives, was not relevant. Also, because fugitive slaves, and the abolition movement, were almost unheard of as late as the 1780s, there is no mention of this issue in the Articles. The closest thing to be found is the Fugitive Clause in Article 4, but even that is more geared toward convicts.

There was no great movement in America to abolish slavery in the 1780's, then the Constitutional Convention met. To be sure, there were opponents of slavery, on a philosophical level, but the abolition movement did not appear until the 1830's, when the American Anti-Slavery Society was founded with William Lloyd Garrison writing the organization's nascent statement of principles. Prior to the Convention in 1787, many "Founding Fathers" expressed opinions that condemned slavery.

John Jay, great supporter of the Constitution after its creation and an author of The Federalist wrote in 1786, "It is much to be wished that slavery may be abolished. The honour of the States, as well as justice and humanity, in my opinion, loudly call upon them to emancipate these unhappy people. To contend for our own liberty, and to deny that blessing to others, involves an inconsistency not to be excused."

Oliver Ellsworth, one of the signers of the Constitution wrote, a few months after the Convention adjourned, "All good men wish the entire abolition of slavery, as soon as it can take place with safety to the public, and for the lasting good of the present wretched race of slaves."

Patrick Henry, the great Virginian patriot, refused to attend the Convention because he "smelt a rat," was outspoken on the issue, despite his citizenship in a slave state. In 1773, he wrote, "I believe a time will come when an opportunity will be offered to abolish this lamentable evil. Everything we do is to improve it, if it happens in our day; if not, let us transmit to our descendants, together with our slaves, a pity for their unhappy lot and an abhorrence of slavery."

Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence, which, famously, declares that "all men are created equal," wrote, "There must doubtless be an unhappy influence on the manners of our people produced by the existence of slavery among us. The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it; for man is an imitative animal. This quality is the germ of all education in him." Alas, like many Southerners, Jefferson held slaves, as many as 223 at some points in his life. His family sold his slaves after his death, in an effort to relieve the debt he left his estate in.

In a letter to the Marquis de Lafayette, George Washington wrote, "[Y]our late purchase of an estate in the colony of Cayenne, with a view to emancipating the slaves on it, is a generous and noble proof of your humanity. Would to God a like spirit would diffuse itself generally into the minds of the people of this country; but I despair of seeing it." Washington and his wife held over 300 slaves. He wrote in his will that he'd wished to free his slaves, but that because of intermarriage between his and Martha's slaves, he feared the break-up of families should only his slaves be freed. He directed that his slaves be freed upon her death. His will provided for the continued care of all slaves, paid for from his estate.

The great American scientist and publisher Benjamin Franklin held several slaves during his lifetime. He willed one of them be freed upon his death, but Franklin outlived him. In 1789, he said, "Slavery is such an atrocious debasement of human nature, that its very extirpation, if not performed with solicitous care, may sometimes open a source of serious evils."

Other examples of anti-slavery messages abound from the late 1700's. They illustrate the feelings of some, but those feelings cannot be seen in the product of their works at creating a government. Despite the freedoms demanded in the Declaration and the freedoms reserved in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, slavery was not only tolerated in the Constitution, but it was codified.

The Constitution has often been called a living tribute to the art of compromise. In the slavery question, this can be seen most clearly. The Convention had representatives from every corner of the United States, including, of course, the South, where slavery was most pronounced. Slavery, in fact, was the backbone of the primary industry of the South, and it was accepted as a given that agriculture in the South without slave labor was not possible. Though slaves were not cheap by any measure, they were cheaper than hiring someone to do the same work. The cultivation of rice, cotton, and tobacco required slaves to work the fields from dawn to dusk. If the nation did not guarantee the continuation of slavery to the South, it was questioned whether they would form their own nation.

Slavery is seen in the Constitution in a few key places. The first is in the Enumeration Clause, where representatives are apportioned. Each state is given a number of representatives based on its population - in that population, slaves, called "other persons," are counted as three-fifths of a whole person. This compromise was hard-fought, with Northerners wishing that slaves, legally property, but uncounted, much as mules and horses are uncounted. Southerners, however, well aware of the high proportion of slaves to the total population in their states, wanted them counted as whole persons despite their legal status. The three-fifths number was a ratio used by the Congress in contemporary legislation and was agreed upon with little debate.

In Article 1, Section 9, Congress is limited, expressly, from prohibiting the "Importation" of slaves, before 1808. The slave trade was a bone of contention for many, with some who supported slavery abhorring the slave trade. The 1808 date, a compromise of 20 years, allowed the slave trade to continue, but placed a date-certain on its survival. Congress eventually passed a law outlawing the slave trade that became effective on January 1, 1808.

The Fugitive Slave Clause is the last mention. In it, a problem that slave states had with extradition of escaped slaves was resolved. The laws of one state, the clause says, cannot excuse a person from "Service or Labour" in another state. The clause expressly requires that the state in which an escapee is found deliver the slave to the state he escaped from "on Claim of the Party."

It has been said that the seeds of the Civil War, which was fought, despite revisionist theory to the contrary, over the issue of slavery, were sown in the compromises of the Constitution on the issue. This is probably true. Slavery, which was started in violence in the kidnapping, shipment, and commerce of human chattel, needed violence to bring it to an end. After the devastation of the Revolutionary War and the unrest in the U.S. under the Articles, a time of peace and recovery was needed to strengthen the nation to a point where it could survive a civil war. The greatest tragedy is that in the nearly 100 years between the start of the Revolutionary War and the end of the Civil War, millions of slaves served, suffered, and died so that the nation could prosper.

 

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