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Author Topic: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December  (Read 21880 times)

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Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2009, 01:15:11 PM »
Wasn't Manning a Finance Minister once? Didn't he boast about doing it with no real financial background? Perhaps the expectation of her knowledge for the post is a bit high. My thing is if she's done something illegal then charge her for it and THEN it becomes appropriate for her to resign. Otherwise it's just the Opposition causing some confusion to distract people from their own problems.

whey dey does really find some ah allyuh boy??

There is little about Manning's tenure to suggest that he was capable as Finance Minister.  Besides, anyone with eve a marginal understanding of the workings of government in Trinidad knows that it is the Permanent Secretaries who do the yeoman's work in the Ministries.  They are the career officers who truly understand the role and function of the Ministry and carry out its mandate.  A Minister often is nothing more than a glorified political appointee... a footsoldier given a plumb post-war reward for his/her help in sacking the enemy.

It is plain foolish to suggest that all wrongdoing must rise to the level of illegality before we begin to ask questions of our elected leaders.  Unprincipled and unethical behavior can be just as wrong even if it occurs without any actual transgression of the law.  The problem with the elected leadership in Trinidad, whether its the PNM of today or the UNC/UNC-A of yesterday... is that these political appointees see themselves as being bigger than the office which they hold.  There is a palpable sense of entitlement, from Manning on down, and they hardly seem interested to care about the appearance of impropriety in their actions... as you suggest, if it ent illegal then who really gives a shit?  Any noise raise, just dismiss it as the usually Opposition grumbling, ride out the storm and sail into the next waiting controversy.


Offline Blue

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2009, 01:20:55 PM »
the woman made all necessary reports to the integrity commission...steups stop the shit with the innuendo...so she made a boo-boo concerning the status of the deposit, it had not matured..ok, but if she was so set on acting shady why did she NOT sell off her shares which are worth considerably more?

That is the REAL QUESTION!

The woman inherited money from her dead husband,,get over it  shit!

Lemme just ask a question if you willing to answer.  What would the likely reaction and outcome be if somebody in the equivalent position in the US did the same thing and made the same statements in Congress or the Senate or wherever.

She made a boo boo.  lol

Rest assured they would not suffer this nonsense.  Even if we grant her the benefit of the doubt, the very appearance of wrongdoing is sufficient to warrant her resignation.  For someone as financially astute (she's the gotdamn FINANCE Minister for crissakes) as she is, "mistake" or "boo boo" simply does not pass muster.

Given that CL Financial accounted for over 30% of TnT's GDP, dont you think its realistic to assume that any local, rational investor would have money in CL Financial? Assuming she did inform the Integrity Commission (I didnt read enuf of this thread to know), what else could she do?

US investors have alot more choice thatn Trinis do.

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2009, 01:29:39 PM »
Given that CL Financial accounted for over 30% of TnT's GDP, dont you think its realistic to assume that any local, rational investor would have money in CL Financial? Assuming she did inform the Integrity Commission (I didnt read enuf of this thread to know), what else could she do?

US investors have alot more choice thatn Trinis do.

How about recuse herself from handling the mess to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest.  Just yesterday Eric Holder similarly recused himself from any investigation of Roger Clemens steroid use and lies before Congress, because the firm he worked for (not even he himself) was involved in representing Clemens last year.

But of course... we have no business trying to apply American ethical standards to a poor little black man country like Trinidad.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2009, 01:30:21 PM »
Wasn't Manning a Finance Minister once? Didn't he boast about doing it with no real financial background? Perhaps the expectation of her knowledge for the post is a bit high. My thing is if she's done something illegal then charge her for it and THEN it becomes appropriate for her to resign. Otherwise it's just the Opposition causing some confusion to distract people from their own problems.

A formal charge should not be the only consideration to invite a resignation.

Offline fishs

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2009, 01:59:42 PM »
Given that CL Financial accounted for over 30% of TnT's GDP, dont you think its realistic to assume that any local, rational investor would have money in CL Financial? Assuming she did inform the Integrity Commission (I didnt read enuf of this thread to know), what else could she do?

US investors have alot more choice thatn Trinis do.

How about recuse herself from handling the mess to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest.  Just yesterday Eric Holder similarly recused himself from any investigation of Roger Clemens steroid use and lies before Congress, because the firm he worked for (not even he himself) was involved in representing Clemens last year.

But of course... we have no business trying to apply American ethical standards to a poor little black man country like Trinidad.

Then the goverment will have to change, Mariano already say his pension tie up in Clico and I'm sure most of the members or their immediate family have some kind of connection to Republic bank ( accounts , loans, credit cards, fixed deposits).

Listen I wish we could apply American or even british standards to our politics but why Karen must be the first on an issue like this ?
Would Manning resign if the Lindquist investigation prove that Rowley did no wrong ?
Why did not Imbert resign when the bridge collapse and kill 2 men ?
Has anybody ever resigned in TT politics because of a matter of integrity ?
When they show Panady up with the pictures and evidence that he owned the house in Kensington , did he resign ?
So who is Karen ?
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2009, 02:35:49 PM »
Then the goverment will have to change, Mariano already say his pension tie up in Clico and I'm sure most of the members or their immediate family have some kind of connection to Republic bank ( accounts , loans, credit cards, fixed deposits).

Listen I wish we could apply American or even british standards to our politics but why Karen must be the first on an issue like this ?
Would Manning resign if the Lindquist investigation prove that Rowley did no wrong ?
Why did not Imbert resign when the bridge collapse and kill 2 men ?
Has anybody ever resigned in TT politics because of a matter of integrity ?
When they show Panady up with the pictures and evidence that he owned the house in Kensington , did he resign ?
So who is Karen ?

All manners of flawed logic and reasoning.

Government don't need to change, the 'business as usual' way of doing government is what needs to change.  Karen doesn't have to be first... but if not Karen then who?  Somebody must be first... or should we keep raising the same illogical excuse each time it happens hereafter... that nobody before has been forced to resign for lapses in integrity so why start now??

It baffles me that you don't see how backwards it is to say that Panday was allowed to escape greater scrutiny therefore from here on out everybody gets a bligh (as your position suggests).  That aside, you and Ryan seem to be confusing the issue... this isn't simply about Karen having shares in CLICO... I assume both of you have heard of 'insider trading'.  Whether actual or imagined, the appearance exists that the Minister was operating on some knowledge of the affairs of CLICO when she sought to make the changes to her accounts.  She then compounded matters by pushing a Government bailout of an institution in which she had a sizeable stake... muddying the issue as to whether she was seeking the public's interest or her own.  A classic example of a conflict of interest if ever there was one.

Offline Blue

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2009, 02:45:59 PM »
Given that CL Financial accounted for over 30% of TnT's GDP, dont you think its realistic to assume that any local, rational investor would have money in CL Financial? Assuming she did inform the Integrity Commission (I didnt read enuf of this thread to know), what else could she do?

US investors have alot more choice thatn Trinis do.

How about recuse herself from handling the mess to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest.  Just yesterday Eric Holder similarly recused himself from any investigation of Roger Clemens steroid use and lies before Congress, because the firm he worked for (not even he himself) was involved in representing Clemens last year.

But of course... we have no business trying to apply American ethical standards to a poor little black man country like Trinidad.

I'm confused....do you think it would be right for the Finance Minister not to be involved in ensuring that the finances of almost every Trini (cuz everyone wid any money have something in CL Financial) aren't looked after as best as possible? Should she have stepped aside and let, for example, the Minister of Works deal with it? That would be a better situation than a dodgy headline in Newsday or Express? ???

IMO, it is acceptable, and necessary, for her to continue to perform her role in this situation. We have an Integrity Commission, and we need to let them investigate. They will hopefully be provided with all the info they need and will act accordingly. If we have faith in this commision, then we should have faith that the Finance Minister can continue to perform her job in the knowledge that, if she has done wrong, she will eventually be brought to justice.


[As for your example - your Holder fella chose not to represent 1 client out of 300 million potential clients. In contrast, almost all Trinis with any money to invest have some interest in CL Financial, and there are few alternatives. Also, Holder had a clear choice -there was no expectation that he would be involved. By default, Teixiera's choice was made for her because of her role - the public required her to act. Unfortunately the situations aren't analogous]


Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2009, 04:17:27 PM »

I'm confused....do you think it would be right for the Finance Minister not to be involved in ensuring that the finances of almost every Trini (cuz everyone wid any money have something in CL Financial) aren't looked after as best as possible? Should she have stepped aside and let, for example, the Minister of Works deal with it? That would be a better situation than a dodgy headline in Newsday or Express? ???

Don't be ridiculous.  The Ministry wouldn't fall apart if Mrs. Nunez-Texeira removed herself from the deliberations... there are more than capable proxies who could step in and contribute, in fact as I said... I am positive that Alison Lewis (the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Finance) and her staff are the ones already doing the heavy lifting anyways, so sending the Minister on a breather would have in all likelihood been a negligible loss.  The very fact that you choose to think in terms of absolutes (if not Karen then the Minister of Works) shows that you're not committed to serious comtemplation of the issue in contention.

IMO, it is acceptable, and necessary, for her to continue to perform her role in this situation. We have an Integrity Commission, and we need to let them investigate. They will hopefully be provided with all the info they need and will act accordingly. If we have faith in this commision, then we should have faith that the Finance Minister can continue to perform her job in the knowledge that, if she has done wrong, she will eventually be brought to justice.

...and that, as they say is a big if.  This ass-backward mentality is part of what's wrong with TnT today, allow the situation to breakdown and then try and hope for a fix later on.  I grew up in a PNM household and remain a PNM supporter in spirit to this day... but even I can recognize bullshit when I spot it, PNM or no PNM.

[As for your example - your Holder fella chose not to represent 1 client out of 300 million potential clients. In contrast, almost all Trinis with any money to invest have some interest in CL Financial, and there are few alternatives. Also, Holder had a clear choice -there was no expectation that he would be involved. By default, Teixiera's choice was made for her because of her role - the public required her to act. Unfortunately the situations aren't analogous]



The Justice Department is investigating the commission of a federal offense (perjury before Congress) and there's "no expectation" that the Attorney General would get involved??  The situations aren't analogous because you refuse to acknowledge them as being analogous... and it's not my purpose nor intent to convince you otherwise.  The fact of the matter is that you're operating on the presumption that the Minister's contributions are integral to the finding of a solution to the financial crisis... when in fact it isn't.  How did TnT function before she became Minister?  Or is it your position that nothing can be accomplished unless the entity holding that title is present at the deliberations?

I hope you see the inherent illogic of your position.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 04:20:11 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline daryn

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2009, 05:38:25 PM »

The Justice Department is investigating the commission of a federal offense (perjury before Congress) and there's "no expectation" that the Attorney General would get involved??  The situations aren't analogous because you refuse to acknowledge them as being analogous... and it's not my purpose nor intent to convince you otherwise.  The fact of the matter is that you're operating on the presumption that the Minister's contributions are integral to the finding of a solution to the financial crisis... when in fact it isn't.  How did TnT function before she became Minister?  Or is it your position that nothing can be accomplished unless the entity holding that title is present at the deliberations?

I hope you see the inherent illogic of your position.


the 2 situations might be similar but definitely not to the extent that it makes the analogy useful here, I don't think.  As far as the portfolios of Holder and Nunez-Texeira go, one of the two cases obviously occupies a much greater relative significance.  A finance minister who recuses themself from dealing with the potential collapse of the financial sector might as well resign.   

Me personally, I find she should resign but I don't see how you could expect the Minister of Finance to recuse herself here. Regardless of what the inner-workings of the Ministry may/may not be.

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2009, 05:39:05 PM »
A senior politician with ties to a troubled financial institution conceals her ties to that institution, which then later presents itself before a government body on which the said politician sits, in seek of government bailout funds.  Sounds pretty familiar...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/13/us/politics/13waters.html?_r=1&hp

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2009, 05:50:17 PM »
the 2 situations might be similar but definitely not to the extent that it makes the analogy useful here, I don't think.  As far as the portfolios of Holder and Nunez-Texeira go, one of the two cases obviously occupies a much greater relative significance.  A finance minister who recuses themself from dealing with the potential collapse of the financial sector might as well resign.   

Me personally, I find she should resign but I don't see how you could expect the Minister of Finance to recuse herself here. Regardless of what the inner-workings of the Ministry may/may not be.



The analogy is illustrative rather than definitive.  It certainly wasn't intended as a perfect analogy, but I should have known better than to expect more from this crowd.

Again... it seems your position is one that functions on the assumption that these Ministers do more than they actually do.  That being the case one would wonder how the country survives the periodic turnover it's subjected to with every election cycle.  In fact government Ministers serve at the will of the Prime Minister and can be removed from office at any time.  How do the ministries function with such pendant upheaval hanging like the proverbial Sword of Damocles over their affairs?  Clearly it's because the Ministries are capable of surviving such turnover, akin to federal Departments here in the US surviving the coming and going of the Department and Agency heads, while the bureaucrats and functionaries under them run the agency.

A Minister's function is to implement the policies of the ruling party according to its manifesto.  The Minister isn't the end all be all of the Ministry, and as alluded to, the Minister isn't even required to have much competence (see Manning) in the particular capacity.  I don't mean to seem condescending, but for all our literacy we as a people have a long way to go towards understanding how our Parliamentary style of governance truly works.

Offline daryn

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2009, 06:59:31 PM »
If you read my reply you will see that I say regardless of what the inner-workings of the ministry might be.

I'm sure that there is a variety of approaches to running a ministry and that different ministers are different to work under but nevertheless the Minister of Finance cannot come out and say that they not dealing with this situation.

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2009, 08:25:03 PM »
If you read my reply you will see that I say regardless of what the inner-workings of the ministry might be.

I'm sure that there is a variety of approaches to running a ministry and that different ministers are different to work under but nevertheless the Minister of Finance cannot come out and say that they not dealing with this situation.

In other words, Reason and Reality be damned you're sticking to your opinion... I hear you.  I'm still interested nonetheless to hear the rationale behind the bolded part of your statement.

Offline zuluwarrior

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2009, 08:41:31 PM »
yuh talking shit.  is de general public who have T&T in shit street. PNM yuh jus so full of the shit ah talking all yuh need is ah sheet ah  galvanize and yuh complete .
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truetrini

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2009, 09:18:59 PM »
yuh talking shit.  is de general public who have T&T in shit street. PNM yuh jus so full of the shit ah talking all yuh need is ah sheet ah  galvanize and yuh complete .
 

you should move to Africa and call yuhself boo boo warrior!

I want two f**king big stones and ten yards,,den you go be complete

Offline dcs

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2009, 11:33:31 PM »

Why in the world would she resign anyway.  There really isn't any pressure to resign or consequence in not walking away.  Forget the specific topic and tell me what will happen if she doesn't resign?

How long Martin Joseph is Minister?  I don't see any reason why she should leave because there will be no real weight in calls for her to resign.  What makes us different from other countries where she would have been tarred, feathered and stoned in the square.  There doesn't seem to be any real power in the hands of the public or even special interest groups in the society.  Transparency International could point this out but at the end of the day does any of the haranguing have any tangible effect other than noise?

I think she should stay.

Now falling out with the public servants when this going on...now that cud be a lil bit of choppy waters to navigate.  it supposed to have strike today but who knows if people still take that on.

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2009, 11:42:12 PM »

Why in the world would she resign anyway.  There really isn't any pressure to resign or consequence in not walking away.  Forget the specific topic and tell me what will happen if she doesn't resign?

How long Martin Joseph is Minister?  I don't see any reason why she should leave because there will be no real weight in calls for her to resign.  What makes us different from other countries where she would have been tarred, feathered and stoned in the square.  There doesn't seem to be any real power in the hands of the public or even special interest groups in the society.  Transparency International could point this out but at the end of the day does any of the haranguing have any tangible effect other than noise?

I think she should stay.

Now falling out with the public servants when this going on...now that cud be a lil bit of choppy waters to navigate.  it supposed to have strike today but who knows if people still take that on.

What you display here is a malady typical of a people who've been conditioned to accept mediocrity.  A critical lack of perspective is missing such that you cannot aspire for more than you've been conditioned to accept.  Why resign if there's no pressure to do so or no consequence in not resigning?  How about resign because it's the proper thing to do under the circumstances?  Part of the reason why I question whether I could ever re-adjust to living in Trinidad again.

Madness.

truetrini

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2009, 11:45:06 PM »

Why in the world would she resign anyway.  There really isn't any pressure to resign or consequence in not walking away.  Forget the specific topic and tell me what will happen if she doesn't resign?

How long Martin Joseph is Minister?  I don't see any reason why she should leave because there will be no real weight in calls for her to resign.  What makes us different from other countries where she would have been tarred, feathered and stoned in the square.  There doesn't seem to be any real power in the hands of the public or even special interest groups in the society.  Transparency International could point this out but at the end of the day does any of the haranguing have any tangible effect other than noise?

I think she should stay.

Now falling out with the public servants when this going on...now that cud be a lil bit of choppy waters to navigate.  it supposed to have strike today but who knows if people still take that on.

Boy Martin Joseph is a good and honourable man...stop passing mouth on de man,, yuh getting meh f**king vex now.

Offline Blue

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2009, 12:13:16 AM »

I'm confused....do you think it would be right for the Finance Minister not to be involved in ensuring that the finances of almost every Trini (cuz everyone wid any money have something in CL Financial) aren't looked after as best as possible? Should she have stepped aside and let, for example, the Minister of Works deal with it? That would be a better situation than a dodgy headline in Newsday or Express? ???

Don't be ridiculous.  The Ministry wouldn't fall apart if Mrs. Nunez-Texeira removed herself from the deliberations... there are more than capable proxies who could step in and contribute, in fact as I said... I am positive that Alison Lewis (the Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Finance) and her staff are the ones already doing the heavy lifting anyways, so sending the Minister on a breather would have in all likelihood been a negligible loss.  The very fact that you choose to think in terms of absolutes (if not Karen then the Minister of Works) shows that you're not committed to serious comtemplation of the issue in contention.

IMO, it is acceptable, and necessary, for her to continue to perform her role in this situation. We have an Integrity Commission, and we need to let them investigate. They will hopefully be provided with all the info they need and will act accordingly. If we have faith in this commision, then we should have faith that the Finance Minister can continue to perform her job in the knowledge that, if she has done wrong, she will eventually be brought to justice.

...and that, as they say is a big if.  This ass-backward mentality is part of what's wrong with TnT today, allow the situation to breakdown and then try and hope for a fix later on.  I grew up in a PNM household and remain a PNM supporter in spirit to this day... but even I can recognize bullshit when I spot it, PNM or no PNM.

[As for your example - your Holder fella chose not to represent 1 client out of 300 million potential clients. In contrast, almost all Trinis with any money to invest have some interest in CL Financial, and there are few alternatives. Also, Holder had a clear choice -there was no expectation that he would be involved. By default, Teixiera's choice was made for her because of her role - the public required her to act. Unfortunately the situations aren't analogous]



The Justice Department is investigating the commission of a federal offense (perjury before Congress) and there's "no expectation" that the Attorney General would get involved??  The situations aren't analogous because you refuse to acknowledge them as being analogous... and it's not my purpose nor intent to convince you otherwise.  The fact of the matter is that you're operating on the presumption that the Minister's contributions are integral to the finding of a solution to the financial crisis... when in fact it isn't.  How did TnT function before she became Minister?  Or is it your position that nothing can be accomplished unless the entity holding that title is present at the deliberations?

I hope you see the inherent illogic of your position.

1st Paragraph - I agree, my Minister of Works comment was stupid ;D Regarding her staff taking over for her - it is very likely that they also have investments in CL Financial. What would you propose then? Keep asking people to step aside until you find the one person in TnT with no interests in CL Financial? The fact is, given the sheer size of the company involved, noone will be independent.


2nd Paragraph - Thats not the purpose of this discussion, so lets not get sidetracked. If you don't believe that the Integrity Commission is honourable and/or effective then start a separate thread for that (and I wont be posting in it).


3rd Paragraph - Sorry, I'll admit I didnt know who Holder was, and from what you described, he sounded like some random lawyer. I dont follow US politics now dat Obama won ;) It makes the example a bit more relevant, but not perfect, because it was very easy for him to step aside and find someone else who was independent - that isnt the case in TnT. In any case, I think we should be considering this case on its own, there's no need to look for examples elsewhere.


Having said all that, I actually only read the Express article last night....seems she hadn't declared everything to the Integrity Commission (I had assumed she had) - probably an oversight on her part, but it makes her positon less credible.

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2009, 01:00:08 AM »
1st Paragraph - I agree, my Minister of Works comment was stupid ;D Regarding her staff taking over for her - it is very likely that they also have investments in CL Financial. What would you propose then? Keep asking people to step aside until you find the one person in TnT with no interests in CL Financial? The fact is, given the sheer size of the company involved, noone will be independent.

You still miss the point spectacularly.  It's not a matter of simply having investments in CL Financial... it has to do with:

The size of her investment, she had a lot to lose, therefore a lot to gain personally from the bailout
The fact that she leveraged her position just as the company's was getting worse (some would say good fortune... some would say 'insider trading').
The fact that she claims to have not known about the size of her CL assets
The fact that she claims the account matured when it didn't mature
...and finally the fact that she was less than forthcoming about her involvement with the company.


2nd Paragraph - Thats not the purpose of this discussion, so lets not get sidetracked. If you don't believe that the Integrity Commission is honourable and/or effective then start a separate thread for that (and I wont be posting in it).

Who's getting sidetracked?  Not YOU who brought up the integrity commission???  I find it supremely amusing that you claim we shouldn't be questioning the effectiveness (I never questioned their 'honour'), yet you condition their effectiveness on her disclosing to them the necessary info, then later down below you confess that you didn't know she was less than forthcoming.

So tell me, how in the world is the Commission supposed to investigate her 'integrity' if she doesn't assist in providing them the necessary information?  Does that NOT compromise their effectiveness?


3rd Paragraph - Sorry, I'll admit I didnt know who Holder was, and from what you described, he sounded like some random lawyer. I dont follow US politics now dat Obama won ;) It makes the example a bit more relevant, but not perfect, because it was very easy for him to step aside and find someone else who was independent - that isnt the case in TnT. In any case, I think we should be considering this case on its own, there's no need to look for examples elsewhere.

I never said the example was perfect... few analogies are, but that hardly disproves my point.  But I'll indulge you... how is it 'easy' for him to recuse himself but not easy for Karen Nunez-Texeira to recuse herself?

I'm also yet to hear a compelling reason why we shouldn't be looking at examples set in other countries as a gauge as to what to expect of our elected leaders.  All I'm hearing are conclusory statements that it shouldn't be done.


Having said all that, I actually only read the Express article last night....seems she hadn't declared everything to the Integrity Commission (I had assumed she had) - probably an oversight on her part, but it makes her positon less credible.

Maybe you should have gotten more facts before weighing in...  your entire position is posited on assumptions and misinformation.  It is this very lack of candor (an "oversight" you call it  ::) ) that is the basis of the calls for her resignation.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 01:02:38 AM by Bake n Shark »

Offline dcs

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2009, 06:00:23 AM »

What you display here is a malady typical of a people who've been conditioned to accept mediocrity.  A critical lack of perspective is missing such that you cannot aspire for more than you've been conditioned to accept.  Why resign if there's no pressure to do so or no consequence in not resigning?  How about resign because it's the proper thing to do under the circumstances?  Part of the reason why I question whether I could ever re-adjust to living in Trinidad again.

Madness.

That still puts the power in the hands of the person who should resign...it is basically their decision.  Boss I think about what going on and is just over and over the same thing and I don't see anything changing to say we should expect a better situation other than those in power deciding they want to be good today or not.  Just right now, logicaly, I don't see anything changing in the decades to come based on how we operate and what our norms have become.  Is not that I accepting it as ok...I just not seeing the society as a whole looking like anything going to change.

As for Martin Joseph.  I am sure most politicians are "good" people with "good" intentions but they could be woefully poor at their job or even downright unethical professionally in some cases.  So maybe he is a good man....if we were to judge his performance he won't get a very good score regardless of what he "trying".

Offline daryn

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2009, 08:42:12 AM »
If you read my reply you will see that I say regardless of what the inner-workings of the ministry might be.

I'm sure that there is a variety of approaches to running a ministry and that different ministers are different to work under but nevertheless the Minister of Finance cannot come out and say that they not dealing with this situation.

In other words, Reason and Reality be damned you're sticking to your opinion... I hear you.  I'm still interested nonetheless to hear the rationale behind the bolded part of your statement.

I clearly said that I thought she should resign. 

the rationale behind the bolded part is very straightforward: the case is too significant a portion of the portfolio of the Ministry of Finance for the Minister of Finance to say she not going to be part of the effort to address it.  Imagine if the Minister of National Security come out and say he eh dealing with anything related to the crime situation.

the official mission of the Ministry of Finance: To efficiently and effectively manage the economy of Trinidad and Tobago through the development and implementation of innovative policies to the benefit of all citizens. 

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2009, 08:50:48 AM »
I clearly said that I thought she should resign. 

Yeah... you're clearly contradicting yourself.  If you find that she shouldn't recuse herself then on what basis should she resign, if not for the clear conflict of interest.?

the rationale behind the bolded part is very straightforward: the case is too significant a portion of the portfolio of the Ministry of Finance for the Minister of Finance to say she not going to be part of the effort to address it.  Imagine if the Minister of National Security come out and say he eh dealing with anything related to the crime situation.

the official mission of the Ministry of Finance: To efficiently and effectively manage the economy of Trinidad and Tobago through the development and implementation of innovative policies to the benefit of all citizens. 

And the MINISTRY cannot accomplish its mission without the input and guidance of the Minister?  God-forbid she should ever fall sick during this recession... Trinidad go fall apart, ent?

Offline daryn

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2009, 09:17:22 AM »
no contradiction at all boss.  Not to anyone actually concerned with reading what is written.

but, in any case, I'll put it in point form:

1) I think she should resign.
2) Whether one thinks she should resign or not, saying that the Minister of Finance should recuse herself from dealing with the potential collapse of the financial sector is not a reasonable position.
3) the Minister of Finance coming out and saying that she ent dealing with this particular situation would be irresponsible.  Falling ill, however, would not. 

Offline fishs

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2009, 09:20:24 AM »
I clearly said that I thought she should resign. 

Yeah... you're clearly contradicting yourself.  If you find that she shouldn't recuse herself then on what basis should she resign, if not for the clear conflict of interest.?

the rationale behind the bolded part is very straightforward: the case is too significant a portion of the portfolio of the Ministry of Finance for the Minister of Finance to say she not going to be part of the effort to address it.  Imagine if the Minister of National Security come out and say he eh dealing with anything related to the crime situation.

the official mission of the Ministry of Finance: To efficiently and effectively manage the economy of Trinidad and Tobago through the development and implementation of innovative policies to the benefit of all citizens. 

And the MINISTRY cannot accomplish its mission without the input and guidance of the Minister?  God-forbid she should ever fall sick during this recession... Trinidad go fall apart, ent?

BS TT politics is not of that stuff, nobody resigning because of an "oversight"

Do you know this lady used to lecture ethics in HW law school ?
Ah want de woman on de bass

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2009, 09:46:23 AM »
no contradiction at all boss.  Not to anyone actually concerned with reading what is written.

but, in any case, I'll put it in point form:

1) I think she should resign.
2) Whether one thinks she should resign or not, saying that the Minister of Finance should recuse herself from dealing with the potential collapse of the financial sector is not a reasonable position.
3) the Minister of Finance coming out and saying that she ent dealing with this particular situation would be irresponsible.  Falling ill, however, would not. 

More of the repetitive pablum...

I read everything you have to say, your logic deficit is what prevents me from agreeing with anything you have to say.  You say that her recusing herself is not a "reasonable" position... yet offer no rationale for this.  She has capable proxies who are infinitely more qualified than her, by both their tenure, familiarity with the situation and their experience.  She's a glorified functionary, as most Ministers are.  Not my opinion, fact.  Look it up.

You ignore this to adhere to your position that her involvement is somehow critical to the finding of a solution.  Symbolically I'm sure there's merit to her appearing hands on... from a pragmatic standpoint there are few quantifiable benefits.  I challenged you on several occasions to make a case as to why you think she's so indispensable and all you can come up with are conclusory statements that for her to recuse herself would be unreasonable and irresponsible.

Fact of the matter is that the involvement of the Minister of Finance yields few benefits, and in fact, quite to the contrary only serves to provide distractions, fodder for the Opposition, and serves to undermine the efforts of those involved in searching for a solution by casting doubt over solutions proposed (are they genuinely to the public's benefit?  Or just for a selfish few?).  When that is the situation you're left with it is then entirely reasonable and in fact responsible for her to resign. 

Finally, the point you fail to acknowledge is that if the Ministry and it's competent staff can carry on in her absence should she be ill, then they should similarly be competent to carry on in her absence should it be the result of a voluntary recusal.  One central tenet of effective management is the ability to delegate responsibilty so that it's not concentrated in the hands of any one individual.  Not only is this proper for practical purposes, but it's necessary for democratic ones as well... it is conducive to the development of a functional market place of ideas.  If the well-oiled machine can run in her absence and by contrast, her presence brings negativity then the choice is a no-brainer... except of course one is living in the ass-backward third-rate banana republic that Trinidad insists on being from time to time.

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2009, 09:47:50 AM »

BS TT politics is not of that stuff, nobody resigning because of an "oversight"

Do you know this lady used to lecture ethics in HW law school ?

Fishs I know nobody ent resigning over dat... doesn't mean they shouldn't.  I'm actually NOT surprised by that last factoid.

Offline asylumseeker

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2009, 11:17:42 AM »
I thought Bakes was on holiday ... ;D

Offline Bakes

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2009, 12:02:26 PM »
I thought Bakes was on holiday ... ;D

Lol, 'holiday' end ah whole week ago... I back in de col' now  :-\

Offline zuluwarrior

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Re: CAUGHT? Finance Minister closed two US$ accounts in CIB last December
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2009, 07:55:45 AM »
That’s not how it’s done, Ms Tesheira
Today's Editorial | 1:01 pm
Published: March 13th, 2009
Today's Editorial | 1:01 pm
It is more than a little bit disingenuous for Minister of Finance Karen Tesheira to suggest that making a declaration to the Integrity Commission is sufficient to exculpate her from the allegation of having a conflict of interest in the bailout of Clico and the other parts of the CL Financial empire being salvaged with taxpayer dollars. The first point to be made is that the declaration made with the Integrity Commission, whatever it was, was not known to the public and remains unknown. For the population to be fully aware of such a declaration, it should have been made in Parliament or at a publicly held news conference. Second, the minister should then have made the declaration to a Cabinet meeting when the matter came to be discussed.

But there is another requirement to meet the gold standard and international best practice in such matters. Having declared such an interest in the matter, the minister would then have had to excuse herself from any Cabinet discussion and decision-making on the matter in question. The common and accepted practice in the courts, for instance, is for magistrates and judges, when faced with the possibility of a conflict of interest, to declare their hand and then recuse themselves from any involvement in the matter in which they have an interest. The expectation must be of a similar nature for a minister, more so a Minister of Finance. Also, there has been some effort to minimise the real value of the minister’s shareholding in Clico. That is absolutely beside the point; the value of the shares is not important to being seen to be involved in narrow self-interested decision-making.

But of course, as the news stories in this newspaper have calculated, the projected value of $11.7 million is not to be sneezed at, and if even that value is discounted by half, over $5 million is quite a substantial sum in any language. Moreover, if it is true that Minister Tesheira received over $31,000 in dividends on her investment in January, that is not chicken feed. Similarly disingenuous is the response of Prime Minister Patrick Manning in attempting to make as if it is “no big thing,” this business of holding shares in the company and making decisions to salvage the company with public monies. The Prime Minister’s off-the-cuff contention that half his Cabinet has annuities and other kinds of policies with Clico is as big a red herring as you can catch in the sea.

One, owning shares in a private company is very different to being a policyholder. Two, as far as has been made public, it has been the Minister of Finance who has been working directly with the Central Bank on the bailout programme, not any other Cabinet members. The whole spirit of the Integrity in Public Life Act is based not merely on the tenets of the legislation but also on public perception: there must not be a scintilla of evidence which could possibly suggest that a public official could, in any way, benefit directly and personally from making public policy decisions.

The Code of Conduct in the Act at 24-2 (a) states very clearly such public officers “shall not use his office for the improper advancement of his own or his family’s personal financial interest or the interest of any person.”
Further, the Code at 23 (c) requires that the person in public office “arrange his private interests, whether pecuniary or otherwise, in such a manner as to maintain public confidence in his integrity.” Now these are clear indications both from the letter of the law and the spirit of it. We leave it up to our readers to make decisions based on the uncontroverted facts as reported in the Guardian.
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