sean "bill" francis... dead?

[weary1969]

D man get kill right by he house. Not even a dog was out in Vegas yday. U live by d sword... Imagine sadiq Baksh d amn who set him up in business talkin bot PNM eh doin nutten bout crime. Is he who give him URP to run in Vegas is dem who make him Local Govt candidate.

RIP d 20 of d so call community leaders dead. Simpson waitin on d next set.

Weary, ah asking you a genuine question here and would appreciate a response from you.

Do you think that the crime situation in Trinidad and Tobago would be significantly different if URP contracts had not been given to them fellas by successive governments?
If yes, why?

Yesssssssssssssssss. D reason is because of d ghost gangs. D ghost gang payroll was first used for bling and puttin PH car on d road. Then dey strt to use 4 guns and drugs. Remember dey gun down a foreman on d promenade for a payroll. URP money arm dem fellas 2 the hilt.

[weary1969]

Three suspects held in Sean Francis killing

Police have arrested three suspects in connection with the shooting death of Morvant community leader Sean “Bill” Francis. Police also seized two vehicles believed to have been used in the killing. Up to late yesterday, Crime Scene Investigators were expected to examine the vehicles which are at the Morvant Police Station. Officers said they were searching for another suspect from Saw Mill Avenue, Morvant. He has been identified as one of the shooters. The suspects in custody are 26, 23 and 25 years old and hail from Beetham, D’Abadie and Vegas, respectively.

According to police, just before midnight on Tuesday, Cpl Primdass, along with PCs Bennet, Rajkumar, Chanderika and Joseph, intercepted the vehicles near the Malick Comprehensive School. Police said they received information that the cars were seen leaving the scene moments after Francis and two other relatives were shot in Vegas, Morvant. Nothing illegal was found in either of the vehicles, but three suspects and three women were taken into custody, police said.

The women, who police said were from the Beetham area, were later released.
Up to late last night, the suspects were in custody at the Morvant Police Station. They ere expected to be interviewed by officers of the Special Anti-Crime Unit. Francis was pronounced dead on arrival on Monday night after he was shot 52 times about the body. His brother Glen and stepson, Kevon Innis remain warded at the Port-of-Spain General Hospital after they sustained injuries in the shooting, which police described as “well organised.”

[Mango Chow!]

   Peter I eh even have to read your entire statement here, having skimmed over just a few of your statements to generally disagree with what you are saying.  There is a stark difference between corporal punishment and abuse.   

Chow.. at least do the man the justice of reading his entire post before dismissing..

as a man who in favor of corporal punishment, i must say that peter's post brings a different perspective. a good read.

   Omar, I not being dismissive. His theory does not add up.  Peter is practically pointing to the use (or overuse) of corporal punishment as the cause for our current state of lawlessness and some of the scenarios he described I can't believe existed.   I get level lix from standard ! all the way until 5th form.  I ain't no criminal.  My Primary school teacher used to beat children for any little thing!!! One time I get lix fuh givin' away my lunch: a fackin' roast beef sandwich!! Ms. Creteau used to beat yuh 'til yuh fart and then beat yuh fuh fartin'!! Not me, or any of my classmates turned out to be criminals.  I could go on....but ah too tired.

[just cool]

Peter yuh wrong about licks being a slave ting only subjected to black and indian ppl! the origins of caning in schools came from the old british colonial system, hek! even aristoctrats used tuh buss their kids a$$ as recent as the 70ies.

man in england white, black , asian, you name it got their a$$e$ buss if they stole, raped or pillaged!

the bristish colonisl system was by far the strictest amongst all world goverments, even more so than in the middle east!

cut arse was mean't tuh keep kids from delinquent thoughts and behavior and it worked in most instances!

did you notice when all this killing started? well let me tell yuh when!

it started when parents took their foot off the peddle and started treating kids like equals!

 when granny had the belt soaking in pee, and fellas had tuh wake up and feed foul, tie out cow, cut grass for the mule tuh eat before he could touch a piece of bread!

when man had tuh get up and go in the market wid they mudder on sataurdays, when fellas had tuh wake up early and go tuh church every sundays whether yuh like it or not.

when fellas had tuh pray in school , before and after meals, plus keep yuh fingernails clean! and yuh couldn't come tuh school wid dirty clothes and air jordans niether. in dem times was when ppl had values and respect for life!  yuh eh see when those values disipate the whole society change?

[weary1969]

Foolishness is in d heart of a child but d rod of correction will drive it out.

[verycute1]

Peter yuh wrong about licks being a slave ting only subjected to black and indian ppl! the origins of caning in schools came from the old british colonial system, hek! even aristoctrats used tuh buss their kids a$$ as recent as the 70ies.

man in england white, black , asian, you name it got their a$$e$ buss if they stole, raped or pillaged!

the bristish colonisl system was by far the strictest amongst all world goverments, even more so than in the middle east!

cut arse was mean't tuh keep kids from delinquent thoughts and behavior and it worked in most instances!

did you notice when all this killing started? well let me tell yuh when!

it started when parents took their foot off the peddle and started treating kids like equals!

 when granny had the belt soaking in pee, and fellas had tuh wake up and feed foul, tie out cow, cut grass for the mule tuh eat before he could touch a piece of bread!

when man had tuh get up and go in the market wid they mudder on sataurdays, when fellas had tuh wake up early and go tuh church every sundays whether yuh like it or not.

when fellas had tuh pray in school , before and after meals, plus keep yuh fingernails clean! and yuh couldn't come tuh school wid dirty clothes and air jordans niether. in dem times was when ppl had values and respect for life!  yuh eh see when those values disipate the whole society change?

well said 

You forget to mention when you bout to get licks and they send you outside to cut your own branch. My grandmom and some of my aunts famous for that. One time I cut a branch off the rose bush cause I wanted the pretty white rose on it. I get licks twice that day. Once with the rose branch and then I had to go pick another branch. I didnt get to keep the rose either.

[weary1969]

Peter yuh wrong about licks being a slave ting only subjected to black and indian ppl! the origins of caning in schools came from the old british colonial system, hek! even aristoctrats used tuh buss their kids a$$ as recent as the 70ies.

man in england white, black , asian, you name it got their a$$e$ buss if they stole, raped or pillaged!

the bristish colonisl system was by far the strictest amongst all world goverments, even more so than in the middle east!

cut arse was mean't tuh keep kids from delinquent thoughts and behavior and it worked in most instances!

did you notice when all this killing started? well let me tell yuh when!

it started when parents took their foot off the peddle and started treating kids like equals!

 when granny had the belt soaking in pee, and fellas had tuh wake up and feed foul, tie out cow, cut grass for the mule tuh eat before he could touch a piece of bread!

when man had tuh get up and go in the market wid they mudder on sataurdays, when fellas had tuh wake up early and go tuh church every sundays whether yuh like it or not.

when fellas had tuh pray in school , before and after meals, plus keep yuh fingernails clean! and yuh couldn't come tuh school wid dirty clothes and air jordans niether. in dem times was when ppl had values and respect for life!  yuh eh see when those values disipate the whole society change?

well said 

You forget to mention when you bout to get licks and they send you outside to cut your own branch. My grandmom and some of my aunts famous for that. One time I cut a branch off the rose bush cause I wanted the pretty white rose on it. I get licks twice that day. Once with the rose branch and then I had to go pick another branch. I didnt get to keep the rose either.

It strt when we strted 2 listen 2 d psycho babble

[dinho]

   Peter I eh even have to read your entire statement here, having skimmed over just a few of your statements to generally disagree with what you are saying.  There is a stark difference between corporal punishment and abuse.   

Chow.. at least do the man the justice of reading his entire post before dismissing..

as a man who in favor of corporal punishment, i must say that peter's post brings a different perspective. a good read.

   Omar, I not being dismissive. His theory does not add up.  Peter is practically pointing to the use (or overuse) of corporal punishment as the cause for our current state of lawlessness and some of the scenarios he described I can't believe existed.   I get level lix from standard ! all the way until 5th form.  I ain't no criminal.  My Primary school teacher used to beat children for any little thing!!! One time I get lix fuh givin' away my lunch: a fackin' roast beef sandwich!! Ms. Creteau used to beat yuh 'til yuh fart and then beat yuh fuh fartin'!! Not me, or any of my classmates turned out to be criminals.  I could go on....but ah too tired.

true, but my point is that you and me could only talk about the licks we used to get based on our own experiences and our own perspective, and how it shaped us as individuals.. we cant talk for the man who was cognitively challenged in school and get blaze after blaze for wrong spelling and end up with mental/emotional problems as a result..

speaking for myself i get some good stick in school for all kinda wickedness.. but it was never no abuse thing, it never scar me and when i did get it i know is cause i look for dat.. i would even go to say that it was all in good sport, and licks in class used to be a kicks ting..

that said i do vividly remember a time in primary school standard 2, a time a teacher raise a girl skirt and blaze she bare ass in front the whole class, and that girl real cry.. i find that was real uncalled for at the time..

and the situations peter discusses is another side of the coin that i feel many of us here not able to relate to if i could hazard a guess about of our upbringings or the social demographic on this board.. And that is why i say it is a different perspective that is interesting to hear.

just cool make some real good points in his post and pretty much sum up how i feel about corporal punishment today.. Things went south when there were no longer consequences for a youth stepping out of line..

Youths doing shit at home and in school and telling teachers and parents to they face that they cant do nothing about it..

[Babalawo]

Look at the nice rides the gunmen used to drive by and shoot up Francis.  Any doubts its some big time drug dealers?  That werent no poor man's job

[Tallman]

Shabazz: Let it be the start of peace
By Camille Bethel (T&T Express)

Community activist Jamal Shabazz has called for the people of the Morvant/Laventille communities to allow the slaying of Sean "Bill" Francis to be the start of peace within those communities.

Speaking with the media away from the mourners and the armed police presence outside the Belgrove Crematorium, Trincity, after the private funeral service that was held for Francis, Shabazz, a close friend of the slain community leader, said the borderline violence must stop.

Francis, 41, of Vegas, Second Caledonia, Morvant was gunned down a short distance from his home on Monday night. His brother, Glen, and stepson, Kevon "Bumper" Inniss, were also injured in the gun attack.

Shabazz said, "It is tested when someone like Sean Francis is killed in this way. Those of us who are close to him will say what is best for Sean Francis but we must also consider what is best for the community and what is best for the society.

"What is best for the society is for us to accept that Sean Francis is dead and for us to accept that the better thing for the community is that it should not allow itself to come into division and violence as a form of retaliation.

"Some things are best left up to God and the Sean Francis that I know would have loved this scenario to be left up to God. I know of his efforts and his love for his community and I want to appeal to the young people, his friends, his enemies to let this be the start of peace because those who wanted him dead have got their will. There is no need now to perpetrate further acts upon the people of the community."

Shabazz who did the eulogy at the funeral service, where close friends and relatives paid tribute in song to "Father Bill", said words were not sufficient to describe the loss he felt over Francis' death because while some would say he was a bad man; Francis was really a militant with a social conscience.

He said Francis cared for the people in the community and was not afraid to stand up to the politicians or anybody else for that matter.

"I think his death will be a tremendous loss to the people who did not have a voice and who are afraid to stand up for the needs of the community and the constituency."

He said it was just last week before he was killed that Francis told him that they should set up a fund for all of those kids whose parents have lost their lives in the community particularly the kids whose parents were considered to be gangsters.

Shabazz described the murders of several community leaders, who met with Government and signed a peace treaty, from 2006 to now was a case of chickens coming home to roost.

He said he does not believe that another meeting with community leaders is the solution because those people in the communities who have become gangsters are the products of negligence and ignorance and it is now deeper than that.

"There now needs to be a meeting between the different interest groups in the society," he added.

[Mango Chow!]

   Peter I eh even have to read your entire statement here, having skimmed over just a few of your statements to generally disagree with what you are saying.  There is a stark difference between corporal punishment and abuse.   

Chow.. at least do the man the justice of reading his entire post before dismissing..

as a man who in favor of corporal punishment, i must say that peter's post brings a different perspective. a good read.

   Omar, I not being dismissive. His theory does not add up.  Peter is practically pointing to the use (or overuse) of corporal punishment as the cause for our current state of lawlessness and some of the scenarios he described I can't believe existed.   I get level lix from standard ! all the way until 5th form.  I ain't no criminal.  My Primary school teacher used to beat children for any little thing!!! One time I get lix fuh givin' away my lunch: a fackin' roast beef sandwich!! Ms. Creteau used to beat yuh 'til yuh fart and then beat yuh fuh fartin'!! Not me, or any of my classmates turned out to be criminals.  I could go on....but ah too tired.

true, but my point is that you and me could only talk about the licks we used to get based on our own experiences and our own perspective, and how it shaped us as individuals.. we cant talk for the man who was cognitively challenged in school and get blaze after blaze for wrong spelling and end up with mental/emotional problems as a result..

speaking for myself i get some good stick in school for all kinda wickedness.. but it was never no abuse thing, it never scar me and when i did get it i know is cause i look for dat.. i would even go to say that it was all in good sport, and licks in class used to be a kicks ting..

that said i do vividly remember a time in primary school standard 2, a time a teacher raise a girl skirt and blaze she bare ass in front the whole class, and that girl real cry.. i find that was real uncalled for at the time..

and the situations peter discusses is another side of the coin that i feel many of us here not able to relate to if i could hazard a guess about of our upbringings or the social demographic on this board.. And that is why i say it is a different perspective that is interesting to hear.

just cool make some real good points in his post and pretty much sum up how i feel about corporal punishment today.. Things went south when there were no longer consequences for a youth stepping out of line..

Youths doing shit at home and in school and telling teachers and parents to they face that they cant do nothing about it..

   I am presenting my opinion from having drawn from a much broader perspective than my own.  The kinda lix I was getting, plenty, plenty other people in T&T was getting.  My parents and their parents was getting it  same way.  Their parents before them and their parents' parents before THEM was getting, too. All across the Caribbean (and not to mention in America's deep South, but dize a whole different demographic altogether.)  I'm sure there are plenty of US here on this forum that get plenty lix for the most petty of offenses.  (I STILL cyah get it why dat woman, God bless her soul, blaze my ass for giving away a friggin' roast beef sangwidge!) This spate in crime that our country is enduring has jumped generations quite precipitously and hasn't shown to be a problem that has been regressive.  Over one generation I would call that an ex/implosion resulting from our society's moral decay.  The source of THAT is for another thread.  I want to go on, but ah have things to do.  this is one to siddong and elaborate on.          

[JDB]

Increase or decrease in corporal punishment is not the cause of the problems. It might be a symptom, but it can't be a cause. Also I wouldn't describe the educational system as abusive. The dreadful part of it is that it is still too "test-focussed" as opposed to development-focussed and the provisions to catch disadvantaged kids are inadequate.

That said it is no diferent to areas with stuggling school systems in th US, which almost always goes hand in hand with economically distressed areas and families. The school systems are burdened by the families as much as by lack of Gov't support.

The problem has to be in the family and y extension the environment. The reason I say that is because corporal punishment is merely a symptom is that in the case of parents who aren't equipped/prepared/aware of how to develop their kids they may not take interest enough to apply corporal punishment to kids that need it. On the flipside an equally lazy, bad parent will jump to corporal punishment as the easy out, to vent their frustration, "punish" the child, but not put in the hard work of communicating, nurturing and teaching.

You can develop kids with and without corporal punishment. Personally I am against it but it is merely a tool and a parent could use it as part of thier strategy. It is only a tool though an dthe real lesson-learning, developing and "keeping in line" comes from the work that is put in communicating to the child what behaviours are expected of them.

I never get licks at home but get licks in school. The licks in school make sense because it was for well-defined trangressions, was very organized. You know whether it is 3 lashes or 6, on one hand, or both or on your ass. You also had enough anticipation, walking to the Dean's office, or lining up for licks to contemplate why you were getting licks and have an understanding. Ultimately though the things that you get licks for in school, being late, making ruckus in class are minor things.

The misuse of licks at home is a much bigger issue. Because it is "your own" child you may not worry about justifying the degree of punishment. In most cases parents may not even consider this an issue and like I say, it is very easy to punish in anger instead of for a reason. That is why generally in families with two parents, working as a team, it works much better. The "wait till your father gets home" gives you that anticipation to understand you actions and the consensus punishment of two parents will likely be more fair than one.

[WestCoast]

very WELL said there JDB