April 27, 2024, 06:38:26 PM

Author Topic: Moving smart ....  (Read 9070 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2009, 12:21:00 PM »
I had to come out of semi-retirement for this one...

1. Gates was wrong for being upset that the cop initially treated him with suspicion... until you've established your identity that is what the cops are supposed to do, like it or not you are a suspect.  He was doubly wrong for immediately (apparently) assuming that the officer's suspicion was driving by some latent racist "narrative".  That assumption is the root cause of his arrest because it fueled his emotions and overrode his reason.  Even if he felt justifiably slighted by the officer ignoring his legitimate requests to produce identification, that was hardly the time or the place to pursue it.

2. The officer may not be a racist, but he's a Grade-A jackass for deciding to inconvenience Gates by arresting him in what is a transparent display of testosterone-driven one-upmanship.  He's doubly a jackass for wasting the public's time and resources in doing so... a waste underscored by the prosecution's decision not to pursue the charges.  "Disorderly conduct" is the typical bullshit catch-all charge used by police whenever they want to trumpet their authority, when better training and common sense would often suffice instead.

3. Just because Sargeant Crowley may have (allegedly) tried to resuscitate Reggie Lewis back in 92/93 whenever it was doesn't mean that he's immune to making stupid decisions... as evidenced by his decision to arrest Gates on his own porch...



the only time Gates made it onto the lawn was in handcuffs, so no, he never followed the cop onto the lawn.


4. As much as I think it was fair for Obama to comment on the issue (he was asked a question, he didn't simply volunteer an opinion) and as much as I respect his opinion, I still believe that his comments were misguided.  At best they are naive b/c his own admission that he wasn't there and didn't know all the facts should have given him more pause before commenting in such a conclusive and forceful way on the situation.  True the decision was "stupid" in the sense that better common sense should have prevailed, but by making such a premature utterance he quite possibly has only contributed to tainting the objectivity of any future litigation.  It will be that much more difficult for the Town/City of Cambridge to have a fair trial with a jury even further biased by the President's comments.

Offline Deeks

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18649
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2009, 12:42:26 PM »
Bake and f---ing Shark. It raining in DC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline ZANDOLIE

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4337
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2009, 01:19:07 PM »
I had to come out of semi-retirement for this one...

1. Gates was wrong for being upset that the cop initially treated him with suspicion... until you've established your identity that is what the cops are supposed to do, like it or not you are a suspect.  He was doubly wrong for immediately (apparently) assuming that the officer's suspicion was driving by some latent racist "narrative".  That assumption is the root cause of his arrest because it fueled his emotions and overrode his reason.  Even if he felt justifiably slighted by the officer ignoring his legitimate requests to produce identification, that was hardly the time or the place to pursue it.

How was he 'wrong' to assume such? Was he even in error? We have no clue about what the officer's demeanour or attitude toward Gates was. I would put more faith in Gates intuition about the officer than than any claim that the popo acted in a professional manner. The fact that he had to play big man and arrest Gates bears that out somewhat IMO.

I agree that  Gates response was poor though. The key is that even though he may have been correct in detecting some sense of privaledge or 'racist' attitude, he let his emotions get away with him.  He should have smiled and turned away. Then the next day use every ounce of that Haaa-vard privaledge to rain hell down on Officer Popo.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18076
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2009, 01:36:57 PM »
I had to come out of semi-retirement for this one...

1. Gates was wrong for being upset that the cop initially treated him with suspicion... until you've established your identity that is what the cops are supposed to do, like it or not you are a suspect.  He was doubly wrong for immediately (apparently) assuming that the officer's suspicion was driving by some latent racist "narrative".  That assumption is the root cause of his arrest because it fueled his emotions and overrode his reason.  Even if he felt justifiably slighted by the officer ignoring his legitimate requests to produce identification, that was hardly the time or the place to pursue it.

2. The officer may not be a racist, but he's a Grade-A jackass for deciding to inconvenience Gates by arresting him in what is a transparent display of testosterone-driven one-upmanship.  He's doubly a jackass for wasting the public's time and resources in doing so... a waste underscored by the prosecution's decision not to pursue the charges. "Disorderly conduct" is the typical bullshit catch-all charge used by police whenever they want to trumpet their authority, when better training and common sense would often suffice instead.

3. Just because Sargeant Crowley may have (allegedly) tried to resuscitate Reggie Lewis back in 92/93 whenever it was doesn't mean that he's immune to making stupid decisions... as evidenced by his decision to arrest Gates on his own porch...



the only time Gates made it onto the lawn was in handcuffs, so no, he never followed the cop onto the lawn.


4. As much as I think it was fair for Obama to comment on the issue (he was asked a question, he didn't simply volunteer an opinion) and as much as I respect his opinion, I still believe that his comments were misguided.  At best they are naive b/c his own admission that he wasn't there and didn't know all the facts should have given him more pause before commenting in such a conclusive and forceful way on the situation.  True the decision was "stupid" in the sense that better common sense should have prevailed, but by making such a premature utterance he quite possibly has only contributed to tainting the objectivity of any future litigation.  It will be that much more difficult for the Town/City of Cambridge to have a fair trial with a jury even further biased by the President's comments.

Moreover, as some may conclude, the use of the words 'tumultuous behavior' in the document is not merely incidental or indicative of literary license by the officer. Massachusetts case law and statute specifically reference the words, and the officer presented his information with a view to striking the judicial sweet spots.

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2009, 01:47:01 PM »
I had to come out of semi-retirement for this one...

1. Gates was wrong for being upset that the cop initially treated him with suspicion... until you've established your identity that is what the cops are supposed to do, like it or not you are a suspect.  He was doubly wrong for immediately (apparently) assuming that the officer's suspicion was driving by some latent racist "narrative".  That assumption is the root cause of his arrest because it fueled his emotions and overrode his reason.  Even if he felt justifiably slighted by the officer ignoring his legitimate requests to produce identification, that was hardly the time or the place to pursue it.

How was he 'wrong' to assume such? Was he even in error? We have no clue about what the officer's demeanour or attitude toward Gates was. I would put more faith in Gates intuition about the officer than than any claim that the popo acted in a professional manner. The fact that he had to play big man and arrest Gates bears that out somewhat IMO.

I agree that  Gates response was poor though. The key is that even though he may have been correct in detecting some sense of privaledge or 'racist' attitude, he let his emotions get away with him.  He should have smiled and turned away. Then the next day use every ounce of that Haaa-vard privaledge to rain hell down on Officer Popo.

At least take the time to properly read what I stated before responding.  I said he was "doubly wrong for immediately (apparently) assuming that..." race was THE driving factor.

Unless we eventually get some insight into the officer's mentality at the time then we can only speculate.  Gates' assumption was one borne of speculation and that assumption gave rise to his belligerence ("loud and tumultuous" or not).  That is "how" he was wrong.  By acting on this assumption, rather than looking at the situation reasonably, he precipitated an unnecessary incident.  Anyone looking at the situation objectively would see that the Officer's suspicions were reasonable.  

If you are aggrieved at the fact that he's treating you as a suspect then that is because YOU ARE a suspect until you identify yourself/explain your presence in the home.

Alternatively, if you are aggrieved because he's dismissive of your requests to present his ID then don't immediately assume it's because you are black and he is white.  For all his experience and erudition Gates has revealed himself to be lacking in perspective... as is the case with too many African Americans (Americans in general, to be honest).  Most police departments are majority white and so when African Americans encounter an asshole cop the first thing that comes to mind is "he's a racist".  However, anyone who has interacted with officers in majority-black jurisdictions can tell you... asshole cops are asshole cops not because they are racist, but because they are asshole cops... period.  During my years in DC (majority black police department) I had the misfortune of observing a number of qualified jackasses in blue in action.  No need for me to go into details... but suffice to say that had the cops not been black I too might have assumed that the lack of courtesy and overall disrespect they exhibited was influenced by some degree of racism.  The fact that they were black made me realize that it has more to do with power-tripping at times... and not automatically racism.

Truth is that race did in fact play a central unspoken role in all of this... and no, I'm not talking about speculation as to what the 9-11 caller or police thought.  Gates was the one who overtly injected race into the narrative by assuming such as the reason why the officer slighted him... he said it himself ("clearly this officer had this narrative in his head... black man, in this neighborhood... he doesn't belong here). It is wrong to blindly assume race to be a factor, no matter how you parse it, and irrespective as to whether you are ultimately proven right in your assumptions.


----------------------

Deeks.. whey's de scene dread?  I considering making a cameo visit to DC this weekend for that CaribUnited lime in Anacostia Park... but some college pardnas trying to link up to go integrate the golf course by whey ah is here, lol

Ah debating...

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2009, 01:48:19 PM »

Moreover, as some may conclude, the use of the words 'tumultuous behavior' in the document is not merely incidental or indicative of literary license by the officer. Massachusetts case law and statute specifically reference the words, and the officer presented his information with a view to striking the judicial sweet spots.

See, I didn't even know that but it makes perfect sense.... tailor the report in a manner such that Gate's (alleged) actions fall within the statutory meaning of "disorderly conduct".

Offline ZANDOLIE

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4337
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2009, 02:38:33 PM »
I had to come out of semi-retirement for this one...

1. Gates was wrong for being upset that the cop initially treated him with suspicion... until you've established your identity that is what the cops are supposed to do, like it or not you are a suspect.  He was doubly wrong for immediately (apparently) assuming that the officer's suspicion was driving by some latent racist "narrative".  That assumption is the root cause of his arrest because it fueled his emotions and overrode his reason.  Even if he felt justifiably slighted by the officer ignoring his legitimate requests to produce identification, that was hardly the time or the place to pursue it.

How was he 'wrong' to assume such? Was he even in error? We have no clue about what the officer's demeanour or attitude toward Gates was. I would put more faith in Gates intuition about the officer than than any claim that the popo acted in a professional manner. The fact that he had to play big man and arrest Gates bears that out somewhat IMO.

I agree that  Gates response was poor though. The key is that even though he may have been correct in detecting some sense of privaledge or 'racist' attitude, he let his emotions get away with him.  He should have smiled and turned away. Then the next day use every ounce of that Haaa-vard privaledge to rain hell down on Officer Popo.

At least take the time to properly read what I stated before responding.  I said he was "doubly wrong for immediately (apparently) assuming that..." race was THE driving factor.

Unless we eventually get some insight into the officer's mentality at the time then we can only speculate.  Gates' assumption was one borne of speculation and that assumption gave rise to his belligerence ("loud and tumultuous" or not).  That is "how" he was wrong.  By acting on this assumption, rather than looking at the situation reasonably, he precipitated an unnecessary incident.  Anyone looking at the situation objectively would see that the Officer's suspicions were reasonable.  

If you are aggrieved at the fact that he's treating you as a suspect then that is because YOU ARE a suspect until you identify yourself/explain your presence in the home.

Alternatively, if you are aggrieved because he's dismissive of your requests to present his ID then don't immediately assume it's because you are black and he is white.  For all his experience and erudition Gates has revealed himself to be lacking in perspective... as is the case with too many African Americans (Americans in general, to be honest).  Most police departments are majority white and so when African Americans encounter an asshole cop the first thing that comes to mind is "he's a racist".  However, anyone who has interacted with officers in majority-black jurisdictions can tell you... asshole cops are asshole cops not because they are racist, but because they are asshole cops... period.  During my years in DC (majority black police department) I had the misfortune of observing a number of qualified jackasses in blue in action.  No need for me to go into details... but suffice to say that had the cops not been black I too might have assumed that the lack of courtesy and overall disrespect they exhibited was influenced by some degree of racism.  The fact that they were black made me realize that it has more to do with power-tripping at times... and not automatically racism.

Truth is that race did in fact play a central unspoken role in all of this... and no, I'm not talking about speculation as to what the 9-11 caller or police thought.  Gates was the one who overtly injected race into the narrative by assuming such as the reason why the officer slighted him... he said it himself ("clearly this officer had this narrative in his head... black man, in this neighborhood... he doesn't belong here). It is wrong to blindly assume race to be a factor, no matter how you parse it, and irrespective as to whether you are ultimately proven right in your assumptions.


----------------------

Deeks.. whey's de scene dread?  I considering making a cameo visit to DC this weekend for that CaribUnited lime in Anacostia Park... but some college pardnas trying to link up to go integrate the golf course by whey ah is here, lol

Ah debating...

Dread I read exactly what yuh type...and yuh still talking lala. Whether Gates 'immediately apparently assumed' or came by his actions in a deliberate or thoughtful manner is of little consequence in this scenario. Thought and action can be mutually exclusive. Gates 'thoughts' are a reflection of his  unique circumstances as a person that navigates complex class and racial hierarchies. How is it ‘wrong’ for an impression/assumption to be created in his mind based on his experiences, immediately apparent or not? His choice of behaviour was atrocious, not his thoughts.

As for speculating about the officer’s behaviour, it will be just that in the end anyway. He will give his side of the story, no doubt santitized and freshly pressed. Then some authority figure will make a judgement as to what sanctions, if any, the officer will face and we will all speculate on what really happended, just as you did when you called him a grade  A-jackass.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2009, 03:25:56 PM »
Dread I read exactly what yuh type...and yuh still talking lala. Whether Gates 'immediately apparently assumed' or came by his actions in a deliberate or thoughtful manner is of little consequence in this scenario. Thought and action can be mutually exclusive. Gates 'thoughts' are a reflection of his  unique circumstances as a person that navigates complex class and racial hierarchies. How is it ‘wrong’ for an impression/assumption to be created in his mind based on his experiences, immediately apparent or not? His choice of behaviour was atrocious, not his thoughts.

As for speculating about the officer’s behaviour, it will be just that in the end anyway. He will give his side of the story, no doubt santitized and freshly pressed. Then some authority figure will make a judgement as to what sanctions, if any, the officer will face and we will all speculate on what really happended, just as you did when you called him a grade  A-jackass.


Let's see who's "talking lala"...

Gates encountered an asshole cop... whether he possesses "unique circumstances as a person that navigates complex class and racial hierarchies" is tangential to the fact that he ASSUMED that the attitude he encountered from the cop was the result of racial bias.  It was an assumption... no matter how you try to prettify and explain away that assumption.  That assumption gave rise to his emotional overreaction to the situation.  He was wrong to assume and wrong to overreact.

Secondly, I did not speculate when I called him a Grade-A jackass... I offered an opinion, an informed opinion at that, based on my knowledge of the law.  As a police officer he has a range of discretion in how he executes his duties... by every objective measure Sgt. Crowley overreacted... a FACT borne out by the dismissal of the charges and the statement of regret issued by his own police department.  Now might be a good time for you to familiarize yourself with the meaning of the word "speculate"... and with that I'm moving on.


Offline ZANDOLIE

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4337
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2009, 03:34:17 PM »
Things just got a little more interesting...

Cop in Gates case teaches about racial profiling

White House: Obama didn't mean to call officer in Gates arrest 'stupid'

msnbc.com staff and news service reports

NATICK, Mass. - The white police sergeant criticized by President Barack Obama for arresting black scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. in his Massachusetts home is a police academy expert on understanding racial profiling.
Cambridge Sgt. James Crowley has taught a class about racial profiling for five years at the Lowell Police Academy after being hand-picked for the job by former police Commissioner Ronny Watson, who is black, said Academy Director Thomas Fleming.
“I have nothing but the highest respect for him as a police officer. He is very professional and he is a good role model for the young recruits in the police academy,” Fleming told The Associated Press on Thursday.
The course, called “Racial Profiling,” teaches about different cultures that officers could encounter in their community “and how you don’t want to single people out because of their ethnic background or the culture they come from,” Fleming said.

Obama has said the Cambridge officers “acted stupidly” in arresting Gates last week when they responded to his house after a woman reported a suspected break-in. Crowley, 42, has maintained he did nothing wrong and has refused to apologize, as Gates has demanded.

Crowley responded to Gates’ home near Harvard University last week to investigate a report of a burglary and demanded Gates show him identification. Police say Gates at first refused, flew into a rage and accused the officer of racism Gates was charged with disorderly conduct. The charge was dropped Tuesday.
Gates’ supporters maintain his arrest was a case of racial profiling. Officers were called to the home by a woman who said she saw “two black males with backpacks” trying to break in the front door. Gates has said he arrived home from an overseas trip and the door was jammed.

Obama was asked about the arrest of Gates, who is his friend, at the end of a nationally televised news conference on health care Wednesday night. “I think it’s fair to say, No. 1, any of us would be pretty angry,” Obama said. “No. 2, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home. And No. 3 — what I think we know separate and apart from this incident — is that there is a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately, and that’s just a fact.” Obama did not fault the actions of Gates, who he said is a friend.

The White House said Thursday that Obama did not intend to call the officer "stupid."
Spokesman Robert Gibbs told reporters that Obama felt that when it was clear that Gates was not a burglary suspect last week, "at that point, cooler heads on all sides should have prevailed."
"Let me be clear, he was not calling the officer stupid," Gibbs told reporters. He said Obama felt that "at a certain point the situation got far out of hand."

In radio interviews Thursday morning, Crowley said he followed procedure.
“I support the president of the United States 110 percent. I think he was way off base wading into a local issue without knowing all the facts as he himself stated before he made that comment,” Crowley told WBZ-AM. “I guess a friend of mine would support my position, too.”
Crowley did not immediately respond to messages left Thursday by the AP. The Cambridge police department scheduled a news conference for later Thursday.

Gates has said he was “outraged” by the arrest. He said the white officer walked into his home without his permission and only arrested him as the professor followed him to the porch, repeatedly demanding the sergeant’s name and badge number because he was unhappy over his treatment.
“This isn’t about me; this is about the vulnerability of black men in America,” Gates said.
He said the incident made him realize how vulnerable poor people and minorities are “to capricious forces like a rogue policeman, and this man clearly was a rogue policeman.”
The president said federal officials need to continue working with local law enforcement “to improve policing techniques so that we’re eliminating potential bias.”

Fellow officers, black and white, say Crowley is well-liked and respected on the force. Crowley was a campus police officer at Brandeis University in July 1993 when he administered CPR trying to save the life of former Boston Celtics player Reggie Lewis. Lewis, who was black, collapsed and died during an off-season workout.
Gov. Deval Patrick, who is black, said he was troubled and upset over the incident. Cambridge Mayor Denise Simmons, who also is black, has said she spoke with Gates and apologized on behalf of the city, and a statement from the city called the July 16 incident “regrettable and unfortunate.”
The mayor refused Thursday to comment on the president’s remarks.
Police supporters charge that Gates, director of Harvard’s W.E.B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research, was responsible for his own arrest by overreacting. Black students and professors at Harvard have complained for years about racial profiling by Cambridge and campus police.

Harvard commissioned an independent committee last year to examine the university’s race relations after campus police confronted a young black man who was using tools to remove a bike lock. The man worked at Harvard and owned the bike.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger

Offline ribbit

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4294
  • T & T We Want A Goal !
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2009, 10:14:33 PM »
Obama was asked about the arrest of Gates, who is his friend, at the end of a nationally televised news conference on health care Wednesday night. ...  Obama did not fault the actions of Gates, who he said is a friend.

look where 'frenism' reach.

Offline WestCoast

  • The obvious is that which is never seen until someone expresses it simply
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 16066
  • "Let We Do What We Normally Does" :)
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2009, 10:20:48 PM »
Obama was asked about the arrest of Gates, who is his friend, at the end of a nationally televised news conference on health care Wednesday night. ...  Obama did not fault the actions of Gates, who he said is a friend.

look where 'frenism' reach.
;D
buh ya kno, he is not the first person of power doin that
Since time eternal people of power have used their influence to gain an advantage over others of less power.....
not so?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 10:29:50 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18076
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2009, 11:16:47 PM »
Obama was asked about the arrest of Gates, who is his friend, at the end of a nationally televised news conference on health care Wednesday night. ...  Obama did not fault the actions of Gates, who he said is a friend.

look where 'frenism' reach.

Are you bored?

Offline daryn

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 1783
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2009, 09:41:23 AM »
Maria Haberfeld's perspective:

Editor's note: Maria (Maki) Haberfeld is a professor of Police Science at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City. She has served in the Israeli Defense Force and the Israel National Police, and worked for the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration as a special consultant. From 1997 through 2001, she was a member of a research team, sponsored by the National Institute of Justice, studying police integrity in three major police departments in the United States. She is the author of "Critical Issues in Police Training" (2002) and co-author of "Enhancing Police Integrity" (2006).

NEW YORK (CNN) -- We teach our children to think about what others feel before they act, but as grown-ups we frequently assume we understand what others do without ever having walked in their shoes.

President Obama expressed his opinion about a police officer's interaction with Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates. "The Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home," the president said.

Was it stupid behavior or was it an understandable result of police procedure -- the culture, or rather sub-culture, of this profession. People depend on police in a time of trouble but are quicker than lightning to judge harshly when things go wrong. But the most important question in this case is: Did they go wrong?

One needs to understand that the interaction between a police officer and a suspect is just part of a larger context.

When a neighbor calls the police to report a burglary in progress and a police officer is dispatched to respond, a decision-making process begins for the officer.

Police work is about sub-cultural contexts, about war stories, about suspicion, about unpredictability, about danger and fear for one's life. Police officers make their decisions based not just on a given situation but also based on their prior experience, the experience of those they have worked with and the stories they have heard about incidents that happened in the past.

A call to respond to a burglary in progress generates a series of images that prepare a police officer for an encounter -- a dangerous encounter that can possibly end with a loss of life.

Not long ago one of my students, an officer in the New York Police Department, was killed trying to stop a robbery in progress. Police officers hear about these stories and unlike the members of the public who forget a story, no matter how sensational within a day or two, police officers carry these stories as their secret weapons. This is part of their armor. An officer responding to a burglary in progress arrives at a scene with a heightened sense of danger, anxious and ready to go into fighting mode.

Yes, the professor identified himself as a legitimate occupant of the premises. However, he was not arrested for trespassing. He was arrested for disorderly conduct.

Police officers arriving at the scene of a suspected burglary in progress do not put down their armor of suspicion just because somebody proved to them that they are the legitimate occupants of the dwelling.

Police encounters can become deadly when officers assume that, on the surface, everything appears to be in order. It is their sixth sense of suspicion that helps them assess the situation in a way that members of the public would not consider reasonable. It is this precise quality of suspicion that goes beyond a reasonable doubt that sets them apart from the larger public and can be understood only by the members of the force.

A person usually does not break into his own house -- it is true that it can happen, and it apparently did in this case -- but this is not a standard behavior that, once explained to the officer, should mandate an automatic approach to put down your guard.

The officers look at the scene of the event they were called to as their domain, their turf, their territory, where some order has been disturbed and they were called to restore it. A famous police scholar, Egon Bittner, once wrote that we call the police when "something ought not to be happening about which something ought to be done right NOW!"

The professor may have raised his voice, and this would appear now as justifiable under the circumstances. But, when somebody challenges the authority or the domain of a police officer who was just called to restore order, the discretionary process of the officer is not the same as that of a bystander.

The professor seemingly lost his temper. One might say that this is fine, given the circumstances. The police officer did not lose his temper, he just made a decision that might have been an outcome of an error of judgment, or which one might say could have been justified given the totality of the circumstances. iReport.com: "Shame" on Gates

There are over 19,000 different law enforcement agencies across the United States. Each agency has its own standard operating procedures and rules and regulations, including the ones that would appear relevant to this case. However, there are no national standards that can be applied when officers respond to a call for a burglary in progress.

Only very general standards could be applied and even then the evolving situation would dictate how officers would proceed after confronting the suspicious person. When an individual under suspicion becomes agitated, insults the officer and becomes aggressive, the majority of police departments would allow the officer to make an arrest.

I was not there. Neither was the president nor all the others who are quick to pass judgment. What went on in the officer's head is something that I can only guess but, based on over 30 years of experience in the doing, teaching and studying of the police profession, I would venture to say that race had nothing to do with the behavior displayed and that the sub-culture of police work dictated the action, more than any possible bias or prejudice.

I do believe that racial profiling exists in the minds of many -- not just police officers but also regular citizens. But police departments around the country are working very hard to fight these ill-conceived notions and, in recent years their diversity recruitment and selection processes, paired with modules in sensitivity and multicultural training, have had an impact.

The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Maria Haberfeld

Offline pecan

  • Steups ...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 6855
  • Billy Goats Gruff
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2009, 01:04:04 PM »
I have not read all the posts above, but Daryn's post by Maria Haberfeld speaks to the state of mind of the police when they are on duty.

The police are operating from a position of authority and power.  In my opinion, the heightened sense of "do as I say" is a reflection of the power that the citizens in asociety grant to those who serve and protect.

So what happens when these powers are abused?  We see examples all the time - some are swept under the carpet, others capture the imagination of the public at large.  Hopeful, injustices will be corrected though I am sure there are many who never get justice.

Abuse of power will always exist and when uncovered, should be dealt with appropriately.

Sometimes, as citizens we have to know when to fight and object and typically, that time is after the incident has occurred and emotions are calmer.

I suspect Gates' objections to the way he was treated would have been more effective had he allowed the police to  leave without overtly challenging the police's sense of authority.

Carefully chose the time and place to challenge a person who has the authority to arrest you because inevitably, in a face-to-face confrontation, with emotions running high, the one with the gun will assert who is on top of the power pyramid.

Nevertheless, what I propose is easy to say in a safe environment.  But if you are affronted and believe your self to be unfairly treated, emotions may often rule.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline ribbit

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4294
  • T & T We Want A Goal !
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2009, 10:04:13 AM »
Obama was asked about the arrest of Gates, who is his friend, at the end of a nationally televised news conference on health care Wednesday night. ...  Obama did not fault the actions of Gates, who he said is a friend.

look where 'frenism' reach.
;D
buh ya kno, he is not the first person of power doin that
Since time eternal people of power have used their influence to gain an advantage over others of less power.....
not so?

well, looks like he fren back back from earlier remarks. gates have a choice - he can follow de president's lead or he can continue along sharpton's path and push for lawsuit - this mirrors a choice facing those in the post-civil rights movement generation.

Offline WestCoast

  • The obvious is that which is never seen until someone expresses it simply
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 16066
  • "Let We Do What We Normally Does" :)
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2009, 10:18:24 AM »
Obama was asked about the arrest of Gates, who is his friend, at the end of a nationally televised news conference on health care Wednesday night. ...  Obama did not fault the actions of Gates, who he said is a friend.

look where 'frenism' reach.
;D
buh ya kno, he is not the first person of power doin that
Since time eternal people of power have used their influence to gain an advantage over others of less power.....
not so?

well, looks like he fren back back from earlier remarks. gates have a choice - he can follow de president's lead or he can continue along sharpton's path and push for lawsuit - this mirrors a choice facing those in the post-civil rights movement generation.
well some believe that "diplomatic" discussion in situations like this dont afford as quick a change in ideology as they would like so they "over react" to facilatate that change.
as the saying goes
"those who dont learn will feel"

addendum: just watching CNN and heard that at the time he had mentioned the officer's mama???
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 10:50:52 AM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18076
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2009, 12:27:05 PM »
Obama was asked about the arrest of Gates, who is his friend, at the end of a nationally televised news conference on health care Wednesday night. ...  Obama did not fault the actions of Gates, who he said is a friend.

look where 'frenism' reach.
;D
buh ya kno, he is not the first person of power doin that
Since time eternal people of power have used their influence to gain an advantage over others of less power.....
not so?

well, looks like he fren back back from earlier remarks. gates have a choice - he can follow de president's lead or he can continue along sharpton's path and push for lawsuit - this mirrors a choice facing those in the post-civil rights movement generation.
well some believe that "diplomatic" discussion in situations like this dont afford as quick a change in ideology as they would like so they "over react" to facilatate that change.
as the saying goes
"those who dont learn will feel"

addendum: just watching CNN and heard that at the time he had mentioned the officer's mama???


It's included in the Incident Report ... you know, the version of the events as described by the officer.

Offline WestCoast

  • The obvious is that which is never seen until someone expresses it simply
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 16066
  • "Let We Do What We Normally Does" :)
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2009, 01:31:53 PM »
addendum: just watching CNN and heard that at the time he had mentioned the officer's mama???
It's included in the Incident Report ... you know, the version of the events as described by the officer.
je comprends.................
is just that Today was the first time that I heard that mentioned within any debate on the situation
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 01:35:29 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline AB.Trini

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 5624
  • yuh cyar take meh ancestry from meh
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2009, 12:36:31 PM »
Regardless of circumstances:

Is anyone above the law?

is justice blind?

Allyuh remember this  incident in TNT?

http://www.socawarriors.net/forum/index.php?topic=40459.msg503070#msg503070


Offline ribbit

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 4294
  • T & T We Want A Goal !
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2009, 07:11:35 AM »
Obama was asked about the arrest of Gates, who is his friend, at the end of a nationally televised news conference on health care Wednesday night. ...  Obama did not fault the actions of Gates, who he said is a friend.

look where 'frenism' reach.
;D
buh ya kno, he is not the first person of power doin that
Since time eternal people of power have used their influence to gain an advantage over others of less power.....
not so?

well, looks like he fren back back from earlier remarks. gates have a choice - he can follow de president's lead or he can continue along sharpton's path and push for lawsuit - this mirrors a choice facing those in the post-civil rights movement generation.
well some believe that "diplomatic" discussion in situations like this dont afford as quick a change in ideology as they would like so they "over react" to facilatate that change.
as the saying goes
"those who dont learn will feel"

addendum: just watching CNN and heard that at the time he had mentioned the officer's mama???

good point - i doubt if you put those two sides together, even over beers at the white house, they could agree on what "ideologies" are involved. with de 2nd amendment dey have in de usa and its many interpretations, de police have a very difficult job - so police prerogative and judgment trump concerns about "sensitivity" **

the mama comment is overshadowing the larger accusation - gates' accusations of racism. even gates won't deny that he reached the "conclusion" that the officer was "a racist" very early in his interaction without knowing anything of substance about the officer. he cites "jet lag" as a reason for his emotional state yet persists in trying to turn this officer into a racial profiler. is that what a career built on analysing race has yielded - an epithet to be thrown impetuously, in the same vein as "a**hole" or "b*tch"? from a so-called man of letters this is very disappointing.

** gates suggested de officer needed "sensitivity" training
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 08:19:06 AM by ribbit »

Offline Bakes

  • Promethean...
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 21980
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2009, 10:19:40 AM »

good point - i doubt if you put those two sides together, even over beers at the white house, they could agree on what "ideologies" are involved. with de 2nd amendment dey have in de usa and its many interpretations, de police have a very difficult job - so police prerogative and judgment trump concerns about "sensitivity" **

the mama comment is overshadowing the larger accusation - gates' accusations of racism. even gates won't deny that he reached the "conclusion" that the officer was "a racist" very early in his interaction without knowing anything of substance about the officer. he cites "jet lag" as a reason for his emotional state yet persists in trying to turn this officer into a racial profiler. is that what a career built on analysing race has yielded - an epithet to be thrown impetuously, in the same vein as "a**hole" or "b*tch"? from a so-called man of letters this is very disappointing.

** gates suggested de officer needed "sensitivity" training

Don't be so quick to dismiss the charges of racial profiling... nowhere in the 911 call did the caller identify the races of the "suspects", even after being prompted several times the best she could muster is that one of them "looked hispanic".  She never mentioned they were black and never mentioned that they had backpacks.  When responding to the call Crowley specifically asked the police dispatcher about the race of the suspect and she told him "one of them may be hispanic, but I don't know". 

Gates never spoke to the caller on the scene other than to tell her "stay here" after she identified herself as the caller... she never mentioned race, according to her lawyer.  So it would be interesting to know how "two large black men with backpacks" ended up in his official police report if he didn't already have that "narrative" in his head?

If he could "imagine" (construing his fabrication in the most positive light) that someone told him they were black... then chances are pretty good that he also imagined that Gates made a comment about his "mama".  Blacks are not only inherently suspicious it seems... they're also quick with the "yo mama" talk.

Lastly, it is a reach to even offer the 2nd Amendment as mitigation for his actions.

Offline kounty

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 3154
  • Truthfulness is brighter than the light of the sun
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2009, 12:31:11 PM »
I had to come out of semi-retirement for this one...

1. Gates was wrong for being upset that the cop initially treated him with suspicion... until you've established your identity that is what the cops are supposed to do, like it or not you are a suspect.  He was doubly wrong for immediately (apparently) assuming that the officer's suspicion was driving by some latent racist "narrative".  That assumption is the root cause of his arrest because it fueled his emotions and overrode his reason.  Even if he felt justifiably slighted by the officer ignoring his legitimate requests to produce identification, that was hardly the time or the place to pursue it.

How was he 'wrong' to assume such? Was he even in error? We have no clue about what the officer's demeanour or attitude toward Gates was. I would put more faith in Gates intuition about the officer than than any claim that the popo acted in a professional manner. The fact that he had to play big man and arrest Gates bears that out somewhat IMO.

I agree that  Gates response was poor though. The key is that even though he may have been correct in detecting some sense of privaledge or 'racist' attitude, he let his emotions get away with him.  He should have smiled and turned away. Then the next day use every ounce of that Haaa-vard privaledge to rain hell down on Officer Popo.

At least take the time to properly read what I stated before responding.  I said he was "doubly wrong for immediately (apparently) assuming that..." race was THE driving factor.

Unless we eventually get some insight into the officer's mentality at the time then we can only speculate.  Gates' assumption was one borne of speculation and that assumption gave rise to his belligerence ("loud and tumultuous" or not).  That is "how" he was wrong.  By acting on this assumption, rather than looking at the situation reasonably, he precipitated an unnecessary incident.  Anyone looking at the situation objectively would see that the Officer's suspicions were reasonable.  

If you are aggrieved at the fact that he's treating you as a suspect then that is because YOU ARE a suspect until you identify yourself/explain your presence in the home.

Alternatively, if you are aggrieved because he's dismissive of your requests to present his ID then don't immediately assume it's because you are black and he is white.  For all his experience and erudition Gates has revealed himself to be lacking in perspective... as is the case with too many African Americans (Americans in general, to be honest).  Most police departments are majority white and so when African Americans encounter an asshole cop the first thing that comes to mind is "he's a racist".  However, anyone who has interacted with officers in majority-black jurisdictions can tell you... asshole cops are asshole cops not because they are racist, but because they are asshole cops... period.  During my years in DC (majority black police department) I had the misfortune of observing a number of qualified jackasses in blue in action.  No need for me to go into details... but suffice to say that had the cops not been black I too might have assumed that the lack of courtesy and overall disrespect they exhibited was influenced by some degree of racism.  The fact that they were black made me realize that it has more to do with power-tripping at times... and not automatically racism.

Truth is that race did in fact play a central unspoken role in all of this... and no, I'm not talking about speculation as to what the 9-11 caller or police thought.  Gates was the one who overtly injected race into the narrative by assuming such as the reason why the officer slighted him... he said it himself ("clearly this officer had this narrative in his head... black man, in this neighborhood... he doesn't belong here). It is wrong to blindly assume race to be a factor, no matter how you parse it, and irrespective as to whether you are ultimately proven right in your assumptions.


----------------------

Deeks.. whey's de scene dread?  I considering making a cameo visit to DC this weekend for that CaribUnited lime in Anacostia Park... but some college pardnas trying to link up to go integrate the golf course by whey ah is here, lol

Ah debating...

Dread I read exactly what yuh type...and yuh still talking lala. Whether Gates 'immediately apparently assumed' or came by his actions in a deliberate or thoughtful manner is of little consequence in this scenario. Thought and action can be mutually exclusive. Gates 'thoughts' are a reflection of his  unique circumstances as a person that navigates complex class and racial hierarchies. How is it ‘wrong’ for an impression/assumption to be created in his mind based on his experiences, immediately apparent or not? His choice of behaviour was atrocious, not his thoughts.

As for speculating about the officer’s behaviour, it will be just that in the end anyway. He will give his side of the story, no doubt santitized and freshly pressed. Then some authority figure will make a judgement as to what sanctions, if any, the officer will face and we will all speculate on what really happended, just as you did when you called him a grade  A-jackass.


 :rotfl: like yuh tryin to draw de man out or wha? 
I does wonder how some men could carry on argument on this forum that no doubt will take hours and hours to read and type and think about everyday so.  I want to switch lives with allyuh fuh a lil while yes! allyuh mus be well happy.

Offline TriniItalian

  • Sr. Warrior
  • ****
  • Posts: 366
  • Never Wait to Procrastinate!
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2009, 01:38:25 PM »
So I was being an ignorant nigga all the time prior to reading this board, all the time I ignoring this story on Washington Post cause I thinking yet again another nigga get bust down, so when I started reading ribbitt post I got interested not realising this is the same story i ignoring all the time on WP, and i looking at the date of the post cause i saying this sound like maybe what the movie with Samuel L. Jackson & Nicholas Cage Amos & Andrew was based on lo and behold is a true story lol :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

P.S. I not laughing at the man I don't feel like posting my views on this matter just yet just laughing at how life imitates art sometimes.
A.W.A.T.T. INFORMANT

Offline WestCoast

  • The obvious is that which is never seen until someone expresses it simply
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 16066
  • "Let We Do What We Normally Does" :)
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2009, 03:15:10 PM »
Obama was asked about the arrest of Gates, who is his friend, at the end of a nationally televised news conference on health care Wednesday night. ...  Obama did not fault the actions of Gates, who he said is a friend.

look where 'frenism' reach.
;D
buh ya kno, he is not the first person of power doin that
Since time eternal people of power have used their influence to gain an advantage over others of less power.....
not so?

well, looks like he fren back back from earlier remarks. gates have a choice - he can follow de president's lead or he can continue along sharpton's path and push for lawsuit - this mirrors a choice facing those in the post-civil rights movement generation.
well some believe that "diplomatic" discussion in situations like this dont afford as quick a change in ideology as they would like so they "over react" to facilitate that change.
as the saying goes
"those who dont learn will feel"

addendum: just watching CNN and heard that at the time he had mentioned the officer's mama???

good point - i doubt if you put those two sides together, even over beers at the white house, they could agree on what "ideologies" are involved. with de 2nd amendment dey have in de usa and its many interpretations, de police have a very difficult job - so police prerogative and judgment trump concerns about "sensitivity" **

the mama comment is overshadowing the larger accusation - gates' accusations of racism. even gates won't deny that he reached the "conclusion" that the officer was "a racist" very early in his interaction without knowing anything of substance about the officer. he cites "jet lag" as a reason for his emotional state yet persists in trying to turn this officer into a racial profiler. is that what a career built on analysing race has yielded - an epithet to be thrown impetuously, in the same vein as "a**hole" or "b*tch"? from a so-called man of letters this is very disappointing.

** gates suggested de officer needed "sensitivity" training
it could be as simple as one or both just saying a "wrong word " or even in Mr Gates state, as you point out, he nerves could be frazzled because of the accumulations of "Boddarations" ;D that he experienced that day.
I could relate to his mind set and accept why he chose his ammo
having said that, I dont think he was right.

"so police prerogative and judgment trump concerns about "sensitivity"" I think Pecan's post was bang on with this.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 03:36:01 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline capodetutticapi

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 10942
  • veni vidi vici
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2009, 07:18:11 AM »
they meetin fuh they beers tonite.de officer drinkin miller,gates drinkin ah red stripe and obama ah bud lite.
soon ah go b ah lean mean bulling machine.

Offline dinho

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 8591
  • Yesterday is Yesterday and Today is Today!
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2009, 09:23:38 AM »
some people really have not one fork to do...

Demonstrators Want Lemonade at Obama Beer Summit
By Jacqueline L. Salmon

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/07/30/demonstrators_want_lemonade_at.html?wprss=44

Representatives of Pray at the Pump (more about them shortly) and the pastor of Rising Sun Baptist Church of Baltimore plan to picket the White House today, asking President Obama to change his choice of beverage when he meets today with Sgt. James Crowley of the Cambridge, Mass., police department and Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. over a beer.

The demonstrators want the White House to serve lemonade instead.

Beer sends the "wrong message to our nation's youth who are becoming alcoholics at young ages," said Rocky Twyman, founder of Pray at the Pump, in a statement this morning. "Whether or not he likes it, President Obama is a role model for all the youth in America. His actions count."

Obama has arranged the beer summit in an effort to mediate the the racially charged controversy caused by the arrest of Gates by Crowley near Harvard University earlier this month.

The Woman's Christian Temperance Union also isn't happy. "There are so many other beverages he could have chosen that would have served just as well," said president Rita K. Wert, suggesting lemonade or iced tea.
Twyman is concerned about booze as a "gateway" drug.

"Studies show that alcoholism leads our previous youth to use harder drugs like cocaine that is responsible for vicious youth crimes, especially in inner-city America that gave Obama large electoral margins," said Twyman.

That point is debatable, but Twyman, a public relations consultant, is experienced at getting publicity and has staged campaigns over the years for various causes, from tsunami relief to bone marrow donations for minorities. Last year, he formed Pray at the Pump, where Twyman and company prayed at gas pumps in the Washington area for relief from high gas prices. Well, prices did come down, so maybe it worked.

I get the feeling, though, that Twyman won't have as much luck this time around.



         

Offline asylumseeker

  • Moderator
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 18076
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2009, 10:41:38 AM »
they meetin fuh they beers tonite.de officer drinkin miller,gates drinkin ah red stripe and obama ah bud lite.

... an example of yuh cyah please everybody ... maybe he should have gone with o'douls ... between the lemonade proposal and sam adams, and not inviting the caller to chill with dem ... de man gehhin static left, right and center.

p.s. yuh doh geh de feelin he's more of a heineken man?

Offline capodetutticapi

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 10942
  • veni vidi vici
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2009, 11:06:26 AM »
they meetin fuh they beers tonite.de officer drinkin miller,gates drinkin ah red stripe and obama ah bud lite.

... an example of yuh cyah please everybody ... maybe he should have gone with o'douls ... between the lemonade proposal and sam adams, and not inviting the caller to chill with dem ... de man gehhin static left, right and center.

p.s. yuh doh geh de feelin he's more of a heineken man?
de amount ah stress he gettin,it wouldn,t surprise me if he want some hard liqour.
soon ah go b ah lean mean bulling machine.

Offline grimm01

  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2009, 12:12:43 PM »
dat is tootz. if he had tell dem come to the White House for espresso or cappuccino he woulda be labelled elitest.

Offline WestCoast

  • The obvious is that which is never seen until someone expresses it simply
  • Hero Warrior
  • *****
  • Posts: 16066
  • "Let We Do What We Normally Does" :)
    • View Profile
Re: Moving smart ....
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2009, 06:12:18 PM »
shit, meh neighbour had ah tiff wid he landscaper and Obama goin an have dem over by the white house for beers...buh day have to go dutch :devil:

I find that this is an unnecessary precedent with gates and crowley.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 06:14:06 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

 

1]; } ?>