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Author Topic: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place  (Read 13022 times)

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Offline Peong

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2009, 10:20:31 AM »
... the world has come to terms with how to deal with the Maradonas, Messi...


Slightly off-topic, but when have you seen teams come to terms with how to deal with Messi?
You mean when Chelsea triple-team him and he lay it off for Iniesta to score?

Offline Deeks

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2009, 10:41:16 AM »
putting aside all the argument about who better than who. At striker Pele was second to none. He was not big play maker like Diego, even though he did on occasions. His job was to score goals and he did it with style.  Diego was one of the ultimate play makers(attacking midfielder) in football history. I would say second to none.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2009, 11:00:06 AM »
Bakes, you is a rel propaganda man tho...FIRST of all, YOU start with this Pele had less of a supporting cast thing, which as far as I am concerned is a bigger load of shit than anybody who said argentina's WC team were weak...

Well instead ah throwing out ah set ah emotional long talk... do yuh homework like me and list de big name players Pele had backing him on his WC squads.  Remember, is allyuh come up with the talk that El Diego's exploits at the Copa is in part why he great. No?

When I pointed out to you that Pele was surrounded by quality players..particularly in 1970, you side step and point out technicalties in my post and ignore the facts that prove THAT you talking rel shit saying those Brazil teams were weaker than any of the Argentina teams Maradona played on...

The only thing more vivid than your imagination is yuh penchant for talking shit.  What technicalities I point out?  I said don't look at the all the great players Pele played with over his career, look at the individual WC teams and point out the great players.  If he had a bomb squad backing him in 1970 as you insist... does that mean that on EVERY World Cup team he had great players backing him?  I sure even you could see the fallacy in that line of argument.

In 1958, Pele was a bit player who started on the bench at first then became more influential as the tournament went own but he did NOT carry Brazil to the title...FACT.

In 1962..he was injured early, GARRINCHA carried Brazil to the title. FACT.


Okay... and so you can't say that Pele had great players with him on that team b/c he really wasn't part of theat campaign.


In 1966..they lost...FACT.

Okay... and what does that prove?  Who were the great supporting cast behind him?

In 1970..the Brazil team was considered one of greatest attacking units ever assembled..

Okay so yuh record stick on 1970.  Name the players.  Thanks.

Pele really had a weaker supporting cast than Maradona?

It doh help that a great number of men you listed in the SO-CALLED great Maradona supporting cast are defenders and goalkeepers...
But as i said earlier..THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL WHICH IS THE GREATEST..everything is objective..they are two great players from two different eras...we should leave it at that..

the greatest argument is a waste of time..

and Socafan...i hope is a arrow post you was attempting there..cuz you talk a large level of folly..let me guess Trinidad best product then is Evans Wise?

"great number"... hardly, ah name two goalkeepers.  Even so, defenders and goalkeepers doh make up the supporting cast that contribute to a WC title?

Make some kinda blasted sense nuh man.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2009, 11:04:09 AM »
Arazi....

I would have replied to the tremendously hapless and obviously dim witted Mr Shark, but your response was both sufficient and civil enough to dissuade.

And Socafan..."Maradona just use to run past people"?....you serious? You hadda be about 9 ot 10 years ole...cuz any adult aint sayind dat kinda nonsense



Nannytrim, come nuh man... expound on de "limited supporting cast" that Maradona had nah.  Tell we... again, look a the lists I provided for the three WCs and name the limited men among them.

When yuh finish tell we about the war that was playing in de 'backdrop' inside yuh head.   Along with the voices.

Offline Socafan

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #64 on: August 30, 2009, 11:20:19 AM »
... the world has come to terms with how to deal with the Maradonas, Messi...


Slightly off-topic, but when have you seen teams come to terms with how to deal with Messi?
You mean when Chelsea triple-team him and he lay it off for Iniesta to score?


He was under manners that whole game. Thank god he make that 1 pass, cause that was his only note whole game. Listen man, I cyar remember any discussion about Pele not showing up for "big games". It certainly have that fuh Messi and Maradona.

But as yuh say....Messi is slightly off topic. We go see in Argentina.

I eh saying dem men eh good..in fact dem men great, right up there. But they eh the best.
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Offline Savannah boy

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #65 on: August 30, 2009, 12:57:49 PM »
Zandolie...I am not going to exchange clips with you.  We could be here all year doing that.  I know what you and Deeks think.  You all know what I think.  Let we leave it at that.  I simply do not believe that in Pele's era that the game was more physical than in Maradona's.  Maradona collected way more punishment.

Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2009, 02:00:09 PM »
Zandolie...I am not going to exchange clips with you.  We could be here all year doing that.  I know what you and Deeks think.  You all know what I think.  Let we leave it at that.  I simply do not believe that in Pele's era that the game was more physical than in Maradona's.  Maradona collected way more punishment.

Cool breeze, you say Pele never had to deal with men employing Gentile style tactis, I show you where he clearly did. Who was fouled more or who was better was not my argument and well beyond any serious analysis I could offer. I will leave that to the men on this site who know far more football than me.
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Offline Arazi

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2009, 03:04:30 PM »

expound on de "limited supporting cast" that Maradona had nah.  Tell we... again, look a the lists I provided for the three WCs and name the limited men among them.



1958


Djalma Santos
Zagallo
Garrincha
Didi
Djalma Santos
Zito
Vava

1962

Djalma Santos
Nilton Santos
Didi
Zito
Garrincha
Vava

1966

Djalma Santos
Gerson
Tostao
Zito
Jairzinho
Garrincha

1970

Jairzinho
Gerson
Tostao
Rivelino
Carlos Alberto
Clodoaldo

Of the the names you listed in the two argentina squads..only Passarella and Kempes could really hold up to the majority of names on that list...while Argentina teams never are weak, none of the teams Maradona played on boasted as much fire power as these Brazil teams...and if you want just for you Bakes you could put the big big big keeper Gilmar in the 1958, 1962 and 1966 squads...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 04:26:59 PM by Arazi »

Offline diamondtrim

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2009, 03:38:34 PM »
Quote from: Bake n Shark link=topic=45706.

[/quote

Nannytrim, come nuh man... expound on de "limited supporting cast" that Maradona had nah.  Tell we... again, look a the lists I provided for the three WCs and name the limited men among them.

When yuh finish tell we about the war that was playing in de 'backdrop' inside yuh head.   Along with the voices.

My word...Replying to your wasteful and often idiotic posts is usually an exercise I reserve while partaking in the divine act of excretion, so as to acquire a better understanding of where you are coming from. So here i go...

I will allow you the benefit of acknowledging your list of players. In fact I will even venture to confirm its accuracy. What I will not do is lay any claim that these players constituted a great supporting cast. Yes they were good players, in fact a couple of them were way above average, but if by virtue of this 'list' you attempt to derail my argument, you are sorely misguided, ignorant and apparently lazy in both your research and passion for football.

For your benefit, as requested, I will name the 'limited' players:

Pumpido & Goycochea...good keepers, but in no way worthy of the acclaim you would have us infer. Pumpido was suspect to aerial balls and Goycochea gained fame due only to his string of penalty saves.

Burrachaga...a personal favorite of mine, had a tendency to overpush and played poorly with his back to goal.

Sergio Batista...good enough to make the Argentine team at the time. Often choked in the big games...ask Lazio.

Monzon?...steups

Olarticochea...his name was a commentators dream, and he was a coach's nightmare. Weak in the midfield, was often employed to perform as a foil for Maradona with limited success.


As for my imaginary war:

The Falklands war ended in 1982 or thereabouts. But, as you certainly lack an acute sense of history and culture, Argentinians fostered hatred for the English long after the war ended, and were still in 'war' with them for years after. The first meeting between these teams in competition was justifiably construed by many Argentines (and foreigners)as being the first opportunity to inflict defeat on their rivals, and was summarily played against the backdrop of the Maldives battle. In fact, even at their meeting in the 98 world cup, old memories were brought up for purposes of inspiration for both countries.

Diego's 'Hand of God' goal was even seen as God himself exacting some measure of revenge on the Argentine's behalf.

I can expound a great deal more if you like, but my hands must make aquaintance with that which you are all to familiar and comfortable...a finely molded piece of toilet paper.

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2009, 03:58:34 PM »
valdano, jose luis brown and burruchaga were the best of his supporting cast.

Offline Arazi

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2009, 04:11:26 PM »

In 1958, Pele was a bit player who started on the bench at first then became more influential as the tournament went own but he did NOT carry Brazil to the title...FACT.


Huh!

In 58 on the pleading of team mates after the England match the coach included Pele & Garrincha. His immediate impact was obvious after beating a couple of players he layed it on a plater for Vava's 2nd goal against USSR, so he was influential from the time he stepped on the field.
At 17 he scored the winning and only goal that sent Brazil into the quarter final. he then score a hattrick against France in the semi final and then two goals in the final. Dam! What more does he have to do for one to say he carried Brazil to the title.

ok maybe a bit player is harsh but HE DID start the tournament on the bench..and yes he did score the winning and only goal against wales...but against France..Brazil were already ahead before he notched his hattrick... similarly in the final..pele score his double ( which was quite a good double) after Vava had already put brazil in the lead with a double...

impressive for  17-year old...carrying the team..no...

Offline Bakes

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2009, 04:37:48 PM »

expound on de "limited supporting cast" that Maradona had nah.  Tell we... again, look a the lists I provided for the three WCs and name the limited men among them.



1958


Djalma Santos
Zagallo
Garrincha
Djalma Santos
Zito
Vava

1962

Djalma Santos
Nilton Santos
Zito
Garrincha
Vava


1966

Djalma Santos
Gerson
Tostao
Zito
Jairzinho
Garrincha

1970

Jairzinho
Gerson
Tostao
Rivelino
Carlos Alberto
Clodoaldo

Of the the names you listed in the two argentina squads..only Passarella and Kempes could really hold up to the majority of names on that list...while Argentina teams never are weak, none of the teams Maradona played on boasted as much fire power as these Brazil teams...and if you want just for you Bakes you could put the big big big keeper Gilmar in the 1958, 1962 and 1966 squads...

62 Squad?  Come nuh man dem men and dem played with limited input from Pele after he got hurt.  good players but not sure yuh could say they supported him in that campaign when they basically did it themselves.

Santos didn't really contribute much in 1966 from what I can gather.  I not going to pretend to be some expert on dem fellas b/c dat was before my time, but it seems that his better days were already behind him.  Same for Garrincha.

Gerson was a one-trick pony in 66... he really wasn't no big player until 1970 roll around.  Same for Tostao who was a gifted 19-year old on the 66 squad but I feel you just throwing his name in there because he have a big name.  Not sure he did much in 66.

Don't think Zito was on that 1966 squad, yuh might want to check that again.  Jairzinho was a non-entity in 1966.  One of my favorite Brazil players of all time... but he played second banana to Garrincha and wasn't until the latter retired that Jairzinho came into his own.

I not going to nit pick, those are big names yuh bring dey... but you really have to throw out 62 when Pele barely played.  Of the cups he really played a role in I'll give you 58 and 70 as the years he really had a supporting cast.

As for Maradona, if of all them names I list you only see quality in Kempes and Passarella... well what ah go tell you, is ah subjective exercise and yuh more than welcome to your opinion, but I vehemently disagree that they were the only two.

btw... maybe you never see the clips of Pele being carried aloft by his teammates after winning the 1958 Cup... with Pele exhausted and crying.  I really have to question your knowledge of WC history if you say Pele didn't carry that team.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2009, 04:40:20 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline jai john

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2009, 05:00:04 PM »
Steeuups.....Maradona just use to run past people. Dais it. He eh no better than Messi, just in a different era ah little ahead of his time. All them Argentines afflicted with Maradonaitis. Yuh ever notice Messi in ah big game!!? No? Exactly. When everybody adrenaline flowing it very easy to keep pace with dem men. Nothing unexpected or tricky. Just quickness.

Players like Pele, Garrincha, Zidane is  horse of a different colour. They have dribbling skills to go along with everything else. Ah kinda dribbling skillset yuh doh see in Argentina, Mexico even Italy with all they technical ability. If yuh raise yuh energy level enough yuh could control Maradona and them sides. When Pele or Zidane wrongfoot yuh and yuh slip and catspraddle, or yuh just get totally wrong directioned yuh does just cyar even chase.

Dais the difference between them men.

Watch and see ah next Argentina cutass coming up from Brazil. The difference will be, yet again, individual men skillset.

You should get out more ....your knowledge of maradona is too limited for you to seriously participate in any discussion about his " Skillset " . i may even venture to say that your knowledge of Pele is limited as well ...


I suppose because you are Maradona's surrogate lover you must know the most 'bout he. That doh change the fact that he and Pele are two different types of players and the world has come to terms with how to deal with the Maradonas, Messi....et al. Maradona had to resort to crying and cheating in the big games when he couldn't see he way. Messi eh cheat yet, well not the blatant hand ball stuff, but he is king diver and he does just disappear, under manners.

When was Pele a non-factor. Which game? Zidane? There is no remedy for these types of players. Yuh just have to take yuh beat and deal with their supporting cast.

Yuh beloved Argentina in for ah next cutass with that smallgoal run past man shit they playing. Everybody now just as quick as them, BUT WITH AN EXTRA LEVEL SKILLSET THAT DEM EH HAVE BECAUSE ALL AH DEM WANT TO BE LIKE YUH MAN MARADONA.

Yuh could vex all yuh want. Ah nex cutass book..deal with it.

You seem to be a very emotional person by your writing .... you should try and leave bias out of your comments when responding however ..that is if you want people to take you seriously..and I hope you do. Reread what I wrote. I never gave any advantage to either maradona or pele ... I merely suggested that you needed to base your opinions on some knowledge of both players ..a fact lacking in your arguments.

You brought Zidane and even Messi to justify your choice ?? You have said little about Pele to show that you know a lot about him preferring to bring down Maradona to illustrate your point.
You then went on to attack Messi ...you left out some other argentinians ..like Rattin, Kempes, Ardiles, Pasarella, batistuta to name a few ...since you seem to hate Argentinian footballers .

The game vs Brazil on 5th September will not prove that Pele was better then Maradona will it ?

If for argument sake you think Pele is better , that is your opinion and you are entitled to that . others may not agree ...but comments like " all Maradona could do is run past people " ...does little to enhance your position as a knowledgeable commentor.
It is not even a good football argument ..it is not even a good anything argument.\

You mentioned Messi ..... I have little doubt that when his career is over his exploits may exceed those of both Pele and Maradona since he has more opportunities to win things than they had ... Lets see he has already won ...the under 20 World Cup, the spanish league, cup and European Cup, The olympic gold, the best young player in the world , the best player in the world ...add to that several lesser credits like golden boot  during under 20 world cup ..youngest player to score in spanish primera ...the list can be extended ...
When one matches the stats in the future the generation of the day may well rate him best of all time until another comes along ...

I could go on ...but choose to cast a few these few pearls just to see your response

Offline Bakes

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2009, 05:05:40 PM »
Quote from: Bake n Shark link=topic=45706.

[/quote

Nannytrim, come nuh man... expound on de "limited supporting cast" that Maradona had nah.  Tell we... again, look a the lists I provided for the three WCs and name the limited men among them.

When yuh finish tell we about the war that was playing in de 'backdrop' inside yuh head.   Along with the voices.

My word...Replying to your wasteful and often idiotic posts is usually an exercise I reserve while partaking in the divine act of excretion, so as to acquire a better understanding of where you are coming from. So here i go...

I will allow you the benefit of acknowledging your list of players. In fact I will even venture to confirm its accuracy. What I will not do is lay any claim that these players constituted a great supporting cast. Yes they were good players, in fact a couple of them were way above average, but if by virtue of this 'list' you attempt to derail my argument, you are sorely misguided, ignorant and apparently lazy in both your research and passion for football.

For your benefit, as requested, I will name the 'limited' players:

Pumpido & Goycochea...good keepers, but in no way worthy of the acclaim you would have us infer. Pumpido was suspect to aerial balls and Goycochea gained fame due only to his string of penalty saves.

Burrachaga...a personal favorite of mine, had a tendency to overpush and played poorly with his back to goal.

Sergio Batista...good enough to make the Argentine team at the time. Often choked in the big games...ask Lazio.

Monzon?...steups

Olarticochea...his name was a commentators dream, and he was a coach's nightmare. Weak in the midfield, was often employed to perform as a foil for Maradona with limited success.


As for my imaginary war:

The Falklands war ended in 1982 or thereabouts. But, as you certainly lack an acute sense of history and culture, Argentinians fostered hatred for the English long after the war ended, and were still in 'war' with them for years after. The first meeting between these teams in competition was justifiably construed by many Argentines (and foreigners)as being the first opportunity to inflict defeat on their rivals, and was summarily played against the backdrop of the Maldives battle. In fact, even at their meeting in the 98 world cup, old memories were brought up for purposes of inspiration for both countries.

Diego's 'Hand of God' goal was even seen as God himself exacting some measure of revenge on the Argentine's behalf.

I can expound a great deal more if you like, but my hands must make aquaintance with that which you are all to familiar and comfortable...a finely molded piece of toilet paper.

Fella, I won't even waste time going back and forth with you and your needless pontificating and postulating. I hope you use that toilet paper to wipe both your hands and your computer screen, after all that shit you just type.  For you to claim that the 86 game was played against the "backdrop" of a war, implying that this war was contemporaneous to the match... a war which ended 4 years earlier... is a stretch by any measure.  Not that it has anything to do with anything.

If all you can remember of Monzon's contribution to that 1990 squad was his sending off then I need not bother arguing with you, suffice to say that he was the first man off the bench to hold down the defensive MF during that campaign.

Goycochea was only the best goal-keeper in that tournament, filling in as a last-minute reserve mind you.  But nah, he wasn't any good.  Ah next man wasn't any good because he "had a tendency to overpush and played poorly with his back to goal".  Laughable.

Offline diamondtrim

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2009, 07:58:01 PM »
Mr Bake,

The more you post is the more you prove that computers and internet access are wasted on the blissfully ignorant.

Carry on with your swiss cheese arguments...as long as you continue, you never fail to reveal and enjoy wallowing in your stupidity.

Please take the time to read carefully, not only my posts, but that of others, before you dive headfirst into your usual bovine grammatical escapades.

I'm trying to help you son

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2009, 08:02:22 PM »
bovine grammatical escapades.
say again :o

 :devil:
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
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Offline Zeppo

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2009, 06:30:15 PM »

I simply do not believe that in Pele's era that the game was more physical than in Maradona's.  Maradona collected way more punishment.

Nonsense. Those Argentine and Uruguayan teams used to kick lumps out of Pele in the Copa Libertadores. Happened to him in the Brazilian league, too.

And let's not forget that Pele played most of his career before yellow and red cards even existed!
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Offline 100% Barataria

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2009, 06:53:35 PM »

I simply do not believe that in Pele's era that the game was more physical than in Maradona's.  Maradona collected way more punishment.

Nonsense. Those Argentine and Uruguayan teams used to kick lumps out of Pele in the Copa Libertadores. Happened to him in the Brazilian league, too.

And let's not forget that Pele played most of his career before yellow and red cards even existed!

Best post ever Zeppo, take win  :beermug:
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2009, 07:02:13 PM »
I once read a article in the Guardian where Pele got sent of in a game against Argentina in Buenos. Antonio Rattin the famous Argentina hardman from the 1966 WC was sticking it to Pele. Pele could not take it any more and either punched him or head butt him. Can anyone verify?

Offline College

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2009, 07:03:34 PM »

I simply do not believe that in Pele's era that the game was more physical than in Maradona's.  Maradona collected way more punishment.

Nonsense. Those Argentine and Uruguayan teams used to kick lumps out of Pele in the Copa Libertadores. Happened to him in the Brazilian league, too.

And let's not forget that Pele played most of his career before yellow and red cards even existed!

ent? ....go back and watch tapes ....not the CDs, Pele was like a pinata. Dont get meh wrong, Diego had more than his fair share but Pele was basically assaulted, and thats putting it mildly.. this is well documented
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 07:09:19 PM by College »

Offline FireBrand

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Pele hits back in Maradona spat
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2009, 04:12:36 PM »
Pele hits back in Maradona spat
BBC Sport

 
Maradona outjumped England's Peter Shilton to score with his hand
Brazil legend Pele has hit back in his war of words with Diego Maradona by ridiculing the Argentine's 'hand of God' goal against England in 1986.

Last month, Argentina coach Maradona questioned Pele's record, saying he only played for South American clubs.

Pele responded: "Maradona was great but the best ever was Alfredo Di Stefano.

"Maradona could not kick with his right foot and did not score with his head. The only time he scored an important goal with his head, he used his hand."

Pele was referring to Maradona's first goal in Argentina's 2-1 victory over England in the quarter-finals of the 1986 World Cup in Mexico.

Maradona rose to challenge England keeper Peter Shilton and punched the ball into the net, fooling the referee.

He later scored a wonder goal, dribbling from just inside his own half and beating half the English midfield and defence before drifting past Shilton and sliding the ball home.

The Argentine had earlier said of Pele: "He won more World Cups. But playing in Europe is another thing."

Di Stefano played for his native Argentina in the late 1940s, but is more renowned for his exploits in Spain.

He played for Real Madrid between 1953-63 and scored 418 goals in 510 games. Di Stefano, who was twice named European player of the year, helped Madrid win five successive European Cups in from 1956.

He also took Spanish citizenship and played for the country 31 times, scoring 23 goals.

However, Di Stefano did not grace a World Cup finals tournament. Argentina did not play in Brazil in 1950 or Switzerland in 1954, while Spain failed to qualify for Sweden in 1958 and he was injured in the run up to the 1962 finals in Chile.
 
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Pele hits back in Maradona spat
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2009, 05:33:41 PM »
Allyuh ain't tired of this I am the best crap!!!!

Offline Zeppo

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2009, 01:23:03 PM »
Police seize Maradona's earrings

Italian police have seized earrings from Argentina's football coach Diego Maradona in an effort to recover unpaid taxes from his playing days at Napoli.

Maradona handed over the earrings, worth some 4,000 euros (£3,600), at a health clinic in northern Italy.

Italian news agency Ansa said Maradona faced a bill of 37m euros from his time at Napoli, where he played a starring role between 1984 and 1991.

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"Donovan was excellent. We knew he was a good player, but he really didn't do anything wrong in the whole game and made it difficult for us."
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Offline Bitter

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Pelé and Maradona
The glorious, ludicrous feud between soccer's two biggest stars.

By Brian Phillips
Posted Monday, Aug. 9, 2010, at 5:00 PM ET
http://www.slate.com/id/2263201/pagenum/all/#p2

In the summer of 2000, FIFA, which does not understand computers, decided to celebrate the arrival of the millennium by hosting an online poll. Its object: to determine the best soccer player of the past 100 years, with the victor to be fêted at a gaudy banquet in Rome. The organizers of the vote assumed it would be won by Pelé, soccer's silky ambassador, who'd been cheerfully ensconced in his Greatest of All Time sinecure for 40 years.

But a public campaign in Argentina swung the vote to Diego Maradona, Pelé's equally legendary but angrier and messier rival, and FIFA flew into a panic. Maradona couldn't be allowed to win; he was too controversial, too infamous for his arrests and drug suspensions, and, besides, it would distress the Brazilian contingent. So FIFA President Sepp Blatter threw out the rules. He convened a special "Football Family Committee," which routed the prize back to Pelé. Maradona went into a rage; FIFA, nonsensically, tried to buy him off by naming him "Internet Player of the Century." He showed up at the banquet, but stormed out before Pelé was handed his plaque. Pelé, always the classier of the two, restricted himself to taunting Maradona from the stage while comparing himself to Beethoven.

This tawdry scrap tells you most of what you need to know about the enmity between these sublimely gifted players. Apart from a brief, weird rapprochement on the set of Maradona's talk show in 2005, during which they traded shirts and sang some songs together, they've been feuding for years.

They were never rivals on the pitch: Maradona, 20 years the younger, was in his rookie season at Argentinos Juniors in 1976-77, when Pelé jogged his last lap with the New York Cosmos. But off the field, their adverse temperaments and gigantic stature have made them ideal foils. Pelé is the company man, the executives' protégé, who smiles and smiles and tilts his lapel toward the bluest ribbon at the fair. Maradona is the unstable outsider, his life a carousel of mobsters, doctors, dictators, and cops. When Pelé publishes a book, it appears in an $11,000 limited edition and prompts the New York Times to opine that "his admirers likened him to Saturn." When Maradona publishes a book, it provokes a meditation on sodomy from Martin Amis. Soccer is barely big enough for both of them.

Unlike other famously twinned rivals—Magic-Bird, Lennon-McCartney, Lincoln-Douglas—Pelé and Maradona have never coaxed the best out of each other or driven each other to new heights. Instead, as the only obstacles standing in the way of each other's respective coronations, they tend to bring out the worst in each other at precisely the moments when the world wants to remember them at their best. During this past World Cup, Maradona was in South Africa managing the Argentina team while Pelé was in attendance to launch a clothing company. Since they were within 500 miles of each other, they spent much of their time sniping back and forth in the press. Pelé alleged that Maradona was in coaching for the money. Maradona sneered that Pelé should "go back to the museum." Pelé, summoning the full gravity of his 69 years, observed that since Maradona talked about him so much, "He must be in love with me." For his part, Maradona periodically elevates the discourse between the two stars by scoffing that the Brazilian has sex with men.

In one sense, this is too bad. It's no secret that the drift of an athlete's life after retirement can alter our perception of his legacy. After his trillionth televised cigar-chomp and that weirdly embittered Hall of Fame speech, Michael Jordan looks a lot less lovable than when he was a kid palming the head of Mars Blackmon. In the same way, the drink-dazed, Beatles-addled post-career of George Best inevitably obscures the player who floated on the ball as if he moved in a different gravity. Maradona and Pelé, whenever they're placed in proximity, show each other in such a bad light that they make it hard to remember what a joy it was to see them play. Pelé, who was so buoyant and exhilarating on the pitch, dissolves into the João Havelange crony and eager self-franchiser whose company once robbed UNICEF. (He sued his business partner over the crime.) And Maradona, whose career was such a relentless display of applied virtuosity, swells into the obese Fidel Castro confidant and Chavez apologist who mows down photographers as a way of marking time between cocaine-induced heart attacks. (He's had two.)

But there's more to this rivalry than just pettiness. Scrape away the grime of scandals and sound bites, and the contrast between these two great players says something about the imaginative possibilities presented by this game or by any game. Think of how you approach sports at different stages of your life. Pelé, the best player on the best team who scored the most goals and won the most trophies and was the happiest and the most famous and most beloved, offers the child's narrative of sports heroism, an exuberant conquest of a just and welcoming world. Maradona, who railed against authority and sabotaged himself and, in 1986, dragged an inferior Argentina team to the World Cup title by sheer force of will, represents the adolescent narrative: an unjust world forced to yield to a superior ego.

It's these two ways of looking at the world that guide the endless, unresolvable debate about which man was the better player. Pelé partisans tend to rely on a curious mixture of fact and imagination: Pelé's numbers (three World Cups, a staggering 1,280 goals in 1,363 games) dwarf Maradona's, and most of the games he played in his prime weren't filmed. The spectacular things we've seen him do in highlight reels, they argue, must be only the tip of the iceberg. Maradona partisans, on the other hand, tend to rely on cutting skepticism and a pose of sophistication: Pelé's goal-scoring tally can't be real (it includes exhibition games, and it's strangely hard to pin down an exact total), and numbers aren't everything, anyway. Maradona played against better defenses in Europe, while Pelé spent his whole career in Brazil and the United States. And Maradona won the World Cup not with superstar teammates like Garrincha and Jairzinho but with journeymen like Ricardo Giusti.

This past week, the two men were, as ever, in the news at the same time. Pelé gave a speech at the Meadowlands announcing the return of the New York Cosmos, the NASL club he played for from 1975-77. He'll serve as honorary president, essentially acting as the face of a corporate group headed by marketing tycoon Carl Johnson. Maradona, in turn, was fired, then maybe not quite fired, then left in a state of probationary fired-ness, by the Argentine Football Association, the latest and apparently last twist in his bizarre run as national team manager. It was the same old story. Pelé is a sellout, the man Roger Bennett recently called "the sport's first human billboard." Maradona is just nuts.

The contrasts we see today threaten to obscure the real difference between these two stars. To see that, you have to look back to Pelé as a beaming 17-year-old in the 1958 World Cup final, when he scored after a delirious lob over Bengt Gustavsson, then scored again, then fainted when Brazil won the game. You have to look back to Maradona's brilliant, furious World Cup quarterfinal against England in 1986, when he punished his opponents with the Hand of God goal, then humiliated them with a minesweeper run that left half their team in tatters. Pelé, whether he's being paraded on the shoulders of his teammates or accepting the next bright prize from Sepp Blatter, embodies the basic, necessary fantasy of sports as a place of accord. Maradona exposes the falseness of that fantasy and, at his best, makes something beautiful out of the exposure. That, more than any squabbling or jealousy, is why they're rivals, and why they remain locked together in the answer to the unanswerable question: "Who's the best player of all time?" They are the inextricable either/or at the heart of soccer's sense of itself.
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Offline Cantona007

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Excellent article. Maradona is not "just nuts"...
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
/* Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald Knuth */

Offline Bakes

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I hate to assume that a) the author is American; and that b) he subsequently knows nothing of the sport... but that said, I find that his treatment of the two is somewhat superficial.  Seemingly he cobbled together profiles of the two from news headlines, rather than from any in-depth research into the particulars.  For instance, he paints Pele as the grinning company man, and Maradona as the caricatured bad boy, Yin to Pele's Yang.  The whole "twinning" thing is farcical since unlike the other famous pairs of athletes/rivals mentioned, these two were never contemporaries.

Truth is often stranger than fiction it is said, and reality is often a great deal more nuanced than our imagination allows.  Pele came of age when the responsibility of an entire race was thrust upon him, not just Afro-Brazilians, but the millions throughout the African diaspora looked up to him and my guess (without more) is that this is what helped keep him on the straight and narrow path.  He was football's first global superstar and the responsibility sat comfortably on his shoulders because he embraced the role of the sport's global ambassador... indeed he revelled in the opportunity to promote sport as the great unifier of peoples.  In fact he revelled in any opportunity to push sport, especially football as a vehicle for improving the lives of others, see his turn as Brazilian Minister of Sport in the mid-nineties.

Compare that to Maradona, who came of age in the hedonistic, me-first decade of the 80s.  That period was all about self-indulgence and excess, extravagance and decadence.  For a young superstar flush with money all the trappings of fame were there, as well as the pitfalls, money, women and drugs.  Maradona was never a sophisticate and like many young professional athletes in that decade he fell victim to the many temptations which came his way.  Not to absolve him from blame, far from it... just to show that both men were products of their times and their environments... while acknowledging that personality/nurture had a huge role as well.  Maradona famously demonstrated that he was willing to win at any cost, whatever the moral price to be paid.  It is understandable why he would bridle at having to play second-fiddle to Pele... for him it's always been about Diego... always about Ego.

I imagine that some of the more experienced heads may have more to add on the matter... particularly men like Observer having seen more of the two than most here, and Asylumseeker, given his continued defense of Maradona.  For me though there is only one 'Greatest', and even admitting my bias against the short, fat, cheating bastard... that unquestionably has to be Pele.

Offline dumpalewie

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I hate to assume that a) the author is American; and that b) he subsequently knows nothing of the sport... but that said, I find that his treatment of the two is somewhat superficial.  Seemingly he cobbled together profiles of the two from news headlines, rather than from any in-depth research into the particulars.  For instance, he paints Pele as the grinning company man, and Maradona as the caricatured bad boy, Yin to Pele's Yang.  The whole "twinning" thing is farcical since unlike the other famous pairs of athletes/rivals mentioned, these two were never contemporaries.

Truth is often stranger than fiction it is said, and reality is often a great deal more nuanced than our imagination allows.  Pele came of age when the responsibility of an entire race was thrust upon him, not just Afro-Brazilians, but the millions throughout the African diaspora looked up to him and my guess (without more) is that this is what helped keep him on the straight and narrow path.  He was football's first global superstar and the responsibility sat comfortably on his shoulders because he embraced the role of the sport's global ambassador... indeed he revelled in the opportunity to promote sport as the great unifier of peoples.  In fact he revelled in any opportunity to push sport, especially football as a vehicle for improving the lives of others, see his turn as Brazilian Minister of Sport in the mid-nineties.

Compare that to Maradona, who came of age in the hedonistic, me-first decade of the 80s.  That period was all about self-indulgence and excess, extravagance and decadence.  For a young superstar flush with money all the trappings of fame were there, as well as the pitfalls, money, women and drugs.  Maradona was never a sophisticate and like many young professional athletes in that decade he fell victim to the many temptations which came his way.  Not to absolve him from blame, far from it... just to show that both men were products of their times and their environments... while acknowledging that personality/nurture had a huge role as well.  Maradona famously demonstrated that he was willing to win at any cost, whatever the moral price to be paid.  It is understandable why he would bridle at having to play second-fiddle to Pele... for him it's always been about Diego... always about Ego.

I imagine that some of the more experienced heads may have more to add on the matter... particularly men like Observer having seen more of the two than most here, and Asylumseeker, given his continued defense of Maradona.  For me though there is only one 'Greatest', and even admitting my bias against the short, fat, cheating bastard... that unquestionably has to be Pele.
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2010, 10:03:26 PM »
Honestly I find the tit for tat boring. But I adore both players. they were the greatest in their eras. But I have a strong affinity for Pele. Like Bakes explained quite comprehensively he was a role model for Black people all over the world at the time. He knew his role and carried himself in a most dignified manner as possibly as he could. He kept a "squeaky clean" life, if you want to believe that. I don't think Pele was perfect. But if you read about the lifes Afro Brazilians or Blacks in Latin America at that time and now,  you will probably understand why Pele is the way he is.

Diego like Pele came from the other side of the track and I guess developed that fiesty attitude. He seems like he always has to prove himself to everybody. Not to me. I know he was great also.

Offline Red Mango

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Re: Maradona puts 'second-best' Pele in his place
« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2010, 09:07:56 AM »
O Rei... by ah mile... and it have nutting to do wid de "Hand of God"...

There is and always ONLY will be ONE King...

The original number 10 is Brazilian...
I wanted to bring a different style to the team, to play the Trinbagonian way. Everald "Gally" Cummings

Offline Zeppo

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I hate to assume that a) the author is American; and that b) he subsequently knows nothing of the sport...

Says the man who claimed that T&T qualified for the World Cup before the USA did...

 :rotfl:
"Donovan was excellent. We knew he was a good player, but he really didn't do anything wrong in the whole game and made it difficult for us."
- Xavi

 

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