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Author Topic: Which is more important club or country?  (Read 4015 times)

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Offline saga pinto

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Which is more important club or country?
« on: September 07, 2009, 08:09:33 AM »
I understand a lot of players make their living because of club football and there is a degree of perception that playing for your country while an honour and a privilege it won't pay the bills, as a matter of fact some players tend to hold back on tackles or attacking with full venom for fear of injury when playing for country but for clubs it's all or nothing,so my question is how do you counter this or is it just up to the individual player to decide.I'm thinking this maybe true for some of our players but not for all. 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 07:28:32 PM by saga pinto »

Offline Socapro

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2009, 08:23:29 AM »
I understand a lot of players make their living because of club football and there is a degree of perception that playing for your country while an honour and a privelige it won't pay the bills, as a matter of fact some players tend to hold back on tackles or attacking with full venom for fear of injury when playing for country but for clubs it's all or nothing,so my question is how do you counter this or is it just up to the individual player to decide.I'm thinking this maybe true for some of our players but not for all.  

Stop the damn diplomacy and call names, are you referring to Kenwyne?

We all know Yorke was guilty of the same in the past or so it was perceived!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 08:26:47 AM by Socapro »
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Offline samo

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2009, 08:41:28 AM »
Even if this is true, do you blame them? When Yorke go injured years ago, he said, he never received as much as a phone call, to see how he was doing!

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Which is more important club or TTFF ?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2009, 08:46:54 AM »
had to come back and change the title of my post to "Which is more important club or TTFF ?" ;)

Even if this is true, do you blame them? When Yorke go injured years ago, he said, he never received as much as a phone call, to see how he was doing!

That is the mindset of the "Spetial Advithor" and the flunkies in the TTFF
ya know just yesterday I was thinking about Noriega who got injured in California a couple years ago......anyone knows HOW he is doing

and talking about KJ...when he was injured in the clash with the english keeper, WHO ended up paying for his Treatment? was it not his club as the TTFF did not have any medical insurance for playerrs. If I remember that is what Roy said at the time...correct me if I am wrong
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 11:41:31 AM by WestCoast »
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Offline jai john

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2009, 08:51:30 AM »
I understand a lot of players make their living because of club football and there is a degree of perception that playing for your country while an honour and a privelige it won't pay the bills, as a matter of fact some players tend to hold back on tackles or attacking with full venom for fear of injury when playing for country but for clubs it's all or nothing,so my question is how do you counter this or is it just up to the individual player to decide.I'm thinking this maybe true for some of our players but not for all.  

Stop the damn diplomacy and call names, are you referring to Kenwyne?

We all know Yorke was guilty of the same in the past or so it was perceived!

I dont believe that Kenwyn is not rtrying his best i just think his style of football is not suited to the task of playing against our latin style opponents who are more skillful then the average english defender who relies on speed and strength. How many times have we seen a defender smply take the ball away from an onrushing Kenwyn ?  
,,,and dem long balls for him to hold up !!! the defenders double team him and come away with it very easily ...he often does not get balls to his feet because we dont have the capability as a team to keep possession and advance with the ball on a consistent basis.
It is easy to balme one man ..like Jones or Stern but that is simply becuase we prefer to hide our head in the sand .... we are not good enough for this level of competition !!! pure and simple ...
we are lacking in fundamentals and we are paying for that. No amount of  recycling can change dat !
we have made too many wrong assumptions about our last WC campaign and fooled ourselves into an elevated status which we did not deserve.
We finished 4th in the last WC hex ! 4th out of six ! We got in when we beat Bahrain ...a  country smaller than us ! I bet if the question was asked at any of the watering holes today that might seem a shock to many patrons. we concluded that we were among the best teams in the world yet we could not beat jamaica who failed to advance !
Even in the south american continent there were teams we could not beat but because of the manipulations of qualifying we got in . We  never were among the top 32 countries in world football ! ..yet we were among the 32 at the last WC.
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Offline Observer

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2009, 08:58:24 AM »
None more important. But if you have no club then you are not getting picked for your country.

People must understand regardless how painfull it is, that clubs are the bread and butter of players. It is after all how they feed their family.
Basically, players benefit from playing consistently for both, so it is in the player's best interest to perform well at the club level and vice versa
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Offline Trinidogg

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 10:10:23 AM »
It seems as if all out players be going all out especially KJ how many times you see KJ go full off with his tackles just d other day i think el salvador he get a yellow card for slide takle so hopefully you eh talking bout him just unfair. But honestly i don't know who u can call out like that on our national team for not putting in work. KJ just has better players at his club hence why he record is much better there.

Offline spideybuff

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2009, 10:10:40 AM »
Depends on the country. For example, if you playing for a small island like Jamaica, who figure they big, but only qualify for a world cup once in they life...and then when they get there do really expect to win, just to participate. Plus, the only trophy u ever win in your life was a few caribbean cups.

In that case, your club more important.

If your country is Brazil on the other hand...then your country more important.
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2009, 10:15:20 AM »
Club country is not an big issue. We just lack the talent. Especiialy in mid-field.  Look, almost the whole Brazil team plays in Europe. They beat Arg. anyway. Cameroon the same thing. They beat Togo away from home. Nigeria, same thing. they tie 2/2 away from home.

Offline Deeks

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2009, 10:19:01 AM »
Let meh take that back on Nigerian. They tied at home to Tunisia. I think they are out of the runnings.

Offline Controversial

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2009, 10:24:05 AM »
country, but clubs is where you make a living, so most would say the club but the greatest players have always been identified as players who shined for their country in the wc and other fifa tournaments...

Offline elan

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 10:31:58 AM »
Is not about which is more important, it's about what goes into each. With club you have quality players in every position, style of play and system many times are designed for these players. They are the the players everyone plays for at the club - Yorke, Jones, Scotty at Swansea -at our national level it's different.
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Offline Observer

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2009, 11:18:13 AM »
country, but clubs is where you make a living, so most would say the club but the greatest players have always been identified as players who shined for their country in the wc and other fifa tournaments...

Very narrow view! What happens is countries borrow players from clubs. The clubs develop players and then they are selected for their country. Argentina did not develop Messi, Brazil did not develop Kaka, Italy did not develop Baggio, Holland did not develop Cruyff etc. etc.

Countries are very dependent on clubs. After all a player may play for his country less than 10 times a year. The clubs train the players daily, give them consistent competition, look after them physically, pay their salaries etc. etc.

Maybe you are right, some of the greatest players were identified as such due to their success at a World Cup or FIFA event. But many have also been considered great before they hit the World stage, due to their success at a club level or CL etc. Lets be realistic, they would never have been selected in the first place if they were not performing for their clubs. 
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Offline Weh-it-is

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2009, 11:24:51 AM »
When it comes down to the country Trinidad and Tobago wouldn't you choose club?








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Offline Bakes

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2009, 11:31:35 AM »

country, but clubs is where you make a living, so most would say the club but the greatest players have always been identified as players who shined for their country in the wc and other fifa tournaments...

Very narrow view! What happens is countries borrow players from clubs. The clubs develop players and then they are selected for their country. Argentina did not develop Messi, Brazil did not develop Kaka, Italy did not develop Baggio, Holland did not develop Cruyff etc. etc.

Countries are very dependent on clubs. After all a player may play for his country less than 10 times a year. The clubs train the players daily, give them consistent competition, look after them physically, pay their salaries etc. etc.

Maybe you are right, some of the greatest players were identified as such due to their success at a World Cup or FIFA event. But many have also been considered great before they hit the World stage, due to their success at a club level or CL etc. Lets be realistic, they would never have been selected in the first place if they were not performing for their clubs.  

I dunno why you wasting time with TI?  Everybody know club more important... country duties only stirs national passion, largely due to nostalgic reasons, but remove the emotional quotient and it's a no-brainer that club duties are more important, especially to the player.  It may seem as though the best players are identified during national duty but that's not the case.  National duty often provides the best stage because international games often take place on bigger stages than club games.  Outside of Europe (Champions League and Europa Cup) nobody really studies club competitions like that.  Compare that to international games and you'll see that the footballing world basically comes to a stop for international competitions... everybody does stop what they doing, sit up and take notice.

So for players who make their name on the international stage the notoriety tends to be greater... but to assume that they get the notoriety or play better because they are playing for the country rather than the club (as TI/Controversial argues) is misguided.

Offline Observer

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2009, 11:41:35 AM »
When it comes down to the country Trinidad and Tobago wouldn't you choose club?








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Offline kev

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2009, 11:44:59 AM »
If anybody is inferring Kenwyne plays different for T & T as he does for Sunderland, he doesn't the bits I have caught.  I didn't see the match but amazed he got booked. 

Offline weary1969

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2009, 11:54:55 AM »
When it comes down to the country Trinidad and Tobago wouldn't you choose club?








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Offline freakazoid

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2009, 02:27:17 PM »
only on a T&T football site would u see such a question.
we question the players passion as is our right, but where is the passion of our supporters? how patriotic are we?  at the drop of a feather we deny our identity. its no suprise then, that our players have issues with country vs club. maybe the fact that they give more for their club has to do more with us "fans" than with them
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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2009, 02:30:20 PM »
Yuh know what even more sad bout this question... :'(

They have men playing for the national team with NO CLUB and still playing the arse.



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Offline Controversial

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2009, 03:04:08 PM »
country, but clubs is where you make a living, so most would say the club but the greatest players have always been identified as players who shined for their country in the wc and other fifa tournaments...

Very narrow view! What happens is countries borrow players from clubs. The clubs develop players and then they are selected for their country. Argentina did not develop Messi, Brazil did not develop Kaka, Italy did not develop Baggio, Holland did not develop Cruyff etc. etc.

Countries are very dependent on clubs. After all a player may play for his country less than 10 times a year. The clubs train the players daily, give them consistent competition, look after them physically, pay their salaries etc. etc.

Maybe you are right, some of the greatest players were identified as such due to their success at a World Cup or FIFA event. But many have also been considered great before they hit the World stage, due to their success at a club level or CL etc. Lets be realistic, they would never have been selected in the first place if they were not performing for their clubs. 

very valid point and i have not forgotten that but if maradonna didnt play brilliantly for argentina, nobody would be praising the man the way he is till this day, the same goes for pele and many of the greats, you gain fame from playing in the world cup, these days playing for man u or a barca could bring alot of fame and fortune to you but shining in the world is the pinnacle which in essence is playing for your country.

with sports like basketball and baseball, olympic gold and world championship baseball is not as big as winning the world series or nba championship, clubs rule. fellahs like bake and shark have their opinion which they feel is dogma, everyone is entitled to their opinion, some people seem to forget that the more caps you play for your country the more likely you are to get through with a foreign club. So country is still apart of the equation to a certain extent. I never said give up your club for country and forget about making a living, i simply said that fame and prestige comes from playing in the world cup for your country and the greats wouldnt have been noticed if they didnt play for their country.

furthermore if the world cup was such an obsolete event, why are we still playing to reach this tournament? tt should forget about playing to reach the world stage and our country should concentrate entirely on club football, the world club championships would also be a bigger event than the world cup if the world didnt feel that representing your country was so important and vital, patriotism would be an after thought... like freakazoid said, its the problem with the fans, not patriotic enough is one of the main setbacks...

it have trinis on this board who have said off this board in person that if you get a chance to play for england, why play for trinidad... thats the mentality of the people, very poor, if we had a well run ttff where players were icons and treated like many other great footballing nations, reppin the nation wouldnt be spoken of in the way it was, its like me telling my brazillian friends tell kaka to 4get about brazil and study his club, they would laugh bc the day brazil is not first, is the day, the brazillian fed burn down...
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 03:21:03 PM by Controversial »

Offline Observer

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2009, 03:25:17 PM »
country, but clubs is where you make a living, so most would say the club but the greatest players have always been identified as players who shined for their country in the wc and other fifa tournaments...

Very narrow view! What happens is countries borrow players from clubs. The clubs develop players and then they are selected for their country. Argentina did not develop Messi, Brazil did not develop Kaka, Italy did not develop Baggio, Holland did not develop Cruyff etc. etc.

Countries are very dependent on clubs. After all a player may play for his country less than 10 times a year. The clubs train the players daily, give them consistent competition, look after them physically, pay their salaries etc. etc.

Maybe you are right, some of the greatest players were identified as such due to their success at a World Cup or FIFA event. But many have also been considered great before they hit the World stage, due to their success at a club level or CL etc. Lets be realistic, they would never have been selected in the first place if they were not performing for their clubs. 

very valid point and i have not forgotten that but if maradonna didnt play brilliantly for argentina, nobody would be praising the man the way he is till this day, the same goes pele and many of the greats, you gain fame from playing in the world cup, these days playing for man u or a barca could bring alot of fame and fortune to you but shining in the world is the pinnacle which in essence is playing for your country.

with sports like basketball and baseball, olympic gold and world championship baseball is not as big as winning the world series or nba championship, clubs rule.

I have already acknowledged what you said as potentially true, but not necessarily so. Ryan Giggs, George Weah, Eric Cantona, George Best, Alfredo DeStefano, Jari Litmanen, Ian Rush, Bern Schuster, Gunter Netzer, Abedi Pele, Anthony Yeboa etc. As a matter of fact he opposite is true, some players have played in a WC but did not shine at all, but still considered great Van Niselroy, Dejan Savićević  and Ibrahimovic come to mind
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Offline Controversial

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2009, 03:29:43 PM »
country, but clubs is where you make a living, so most would say the club but the greatest players have always been identified as players who shined for their country in the wc and other fifa tournaments...

Very narrow view! What happens is countries borrow players from clubs. The clubs develop players and then they are selected for their country. Argentina did not develop Messi, Brazil did not develop Kaka, Italy did not develop Baggio, Holland did not develop Cruyff etc. etc.

Countries are very dependent on clubs. After all a player may play for his country less than 10 times a year. The clubs train the players daily, give them consistent competition, look after them physically, pay their salaries etc. etc.

Maybe you are right, some of the greatest players were identified as such due to their success at a World Cup or FIFA event. But many have also been considered great before they hit the World stage, due to their success at a club level or CL etc. Lets be realistic, they would never have been selected in the first place if they were not performing for their clubs. 

very valid point and i have not forgotten that but if maradonna didnt play brilliantly for argentina, nobody would be praising the man the way he is till this day, the same goes pele and many of the greats, you gain fame from playing in the world cup, these days playing for man u or a barca could bring alot of fame and fortune to you but shining in the world is the pinnacle which in essence is playing for your country.

with sports like basketball and baseball, olympic gold and world championship baseball is not as big as winning the world series or nba championship, clubs rule.

I have already acknowledged what you said as potentially true, but not necessarily so. Ryan Giggs, George Weah, Eric Cantona, George Best, Alfredo DeStefano, Jari Litmanen, Ian Rush, Bern Schuster, Gunter Netzer, Abedi Pele, Anthony Yeboa etc. As a matter of fact he opposite is true, some players have played in a WC but did not shine at all, but still considered great Van Niselroy, Dejan Savićević  and Ibrahimovic come to mind

your right also theres always an exception to everything, what im saying is never intended to be gospel like so many on here who claim there statements are. clubs are essential just as playing for your country, which goes back to what you said which i agree with fully, neither being the answer :beermug:

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2009, 03:53:23 PM »
I think which platform serves the player's immediate purpose. Plus some players are only as affective as the quality of players they play with, the system they play within, the footballing regime as well the coaching they recieve. Why do some people choose to leave Trinidad and not return? Does it make them less loyal to the country?

Offline saga pinto

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2009, 04:13:05 PM »
I think which platform serves the player's immediate purpose. Plus some players are only as affective as the quality of players they play with, the system they play within, the footballing regime as well the coaching they recieve. Why do some people choose to leave Trinidad and not return? Does it make them less loyal to the country?

I'll take dah one fuh ah run in general discussion,you might be surprised......

Offline Bakes

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2009, 07:02:01 PM »

very valid point and i have not forgotten that but if maradonna didnt play brilliantly for argentina, nobody would be praising the man the way he is till this day, the same goes for pele and many of the greats, you gain fame from playing in the world cup, these days playing for man u or a barca could bring alot of fame and fortune to you but shining in the world is the pinnacle which in essence is playing for your country.

Maybe once upon a time that was the case because (again, since you apparently missed it the first time) the world cup was the only way that someone in England, France or Nigeria could get to see a Pele or Maradona play.  International broadcast of football games were limited... and limited to international (nation vs. nation) competition.  I sincerely doubt there were any broadcast of club competitions back then... maybe in Maradona's time... but even so, did we ever see Champions League games in TnT in the 80s?

with sports like basketball and baseball, olympic gold and world championship baseball is not as big as winning the world series or nba championship, clubs rule. fellahs like bake and shark have their opinion which they feel is dogma, everyone is entitled to their opinion, some people seem to forget that the more caps you play for your country the more likely you are to get through with a foreign club. So country is still apart of the equation to a certain extent. I never said give up your club for country and forget about making a living, i simply said that fame and prestige comes from playing in the world cup for your country and the greats wouldnt have been noticed if they didnt play for their country.

I feel you does talk just to see your ass cheeks move yes.  Tell me where, other than England do they have a stringent requirement that you be capped for your national country before they allow you to play for a club?  BESIDES... nobody say "country" is no longer part of the equation.  The discussion isn't whether country is irrelevant, but which is more important.  Try yuh best and keep de riddim nah.

furthermore if the world cup was such an obsolete event, why are we still playing to reach this tournament? tt should forget about playing to reach the world stage and our country should concentrate entirely on club football, the world club championships would also be a bigger event than the world cup if the world didnt feel that representing your country was so important and vital, patriotism would be an after thought... like freakazoid said, its the problem with the fans, not patriotic enough is one of the main setbacks...

Who said it was obsolete?

it have trinis on this board who have said off this board in person that if you get a chance to play for england, why play for trinidad... thats the mentality of the people, very poor, if we had a well run ttff where players were icons and treated like many other great footballing nations, reppin the nation wouldnt be spoken of in the way it was, its like me telling my brazillian friends tell kaka to 4get about brazil and study his club, they would laugh bc the day brazil is not first, is the day, the brazillian fed burn down...

That right there shows you didn't understand what people were saying... it is BECAUSE we don't have a well-run TTFF that men say if they had to choose between TnT and another country like England they'd choose England.


Offline Bakes

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2009, 07:06:21 PM »
your right also theres always an exception to everything, what im saying is never intended to be gospel like so many on here who claim there statements are. clubs are essential just as playing for your country, which goes back to what you said which i agree with fully, neither being the answer :beermug:

You's ah f**king bullshit artist yes... you only agree with it fully because yuh change yuh chune.  This is what you said

Quote
country, but clubs is where you make a living, so most would say the club but the greatest players have always been identified as players who shined for their country in the wc and other fifa tournaments...

If yuh change yuh mind then say so... doh come talking like you and Observer was saying the same thing all along.  Nobody say their opinion is 'gospel', but if man disagree with yuh doh vex because they show yuh de errors in yuh reasoning.

Offline Midknight

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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2009, 07:22:08 PM »
I have already acknowledged what you said as potentially true, but not necessarily so. Ryan Giggs, George Weah, Eric Cantona, George Best, Alfredo DeStefano, Jari Litmanen, Ian Rush, Bern Schuster, Gunter Netzer, Abedi Pele, Anthony Yeboa etc. As a matter of fact he opposite is true, some players have played in a WC but did not shine at all, but still considered great Van Niselroy, Dejan Savićević  and Ibrahimovic come to mind
The fact is, a World cup is maximum 6 games every 4 years, (18-20 on average if you count qualifying, but no one ever remembers how you performed then if you're a big team), same for European cup. A football season is 38 league games, maybe 10 cup matches, max 12 European matches. So the average high level footballer plays 400-500 odd matches in a 8 year career at the highest level, of which maybe 80 competitive ones with his national team.

He has exactly 12 of those to write himself into World Cup greatness.

With the World Cup, you can't tell yourself, I will make it up next match, in the return leg, or even next year. You have no guarantee to be around in four years, between coaching changes, injuries, drop in form, old age, non qualification

What makes the great ones great is that they seize that moment - that very small window of opportunity. That doesn't change the fact that they also need to prove is no fluke, and they do that day in and day out with their clubs as well. But at the end of the day, is all about those who could rise up to the occasion.

Most of the modern players you call there exempted from the WC = greatness rule for the simple reason that they played for national teams that didn't have a snowball chance in hell of qualifying let alone winning a World Cup. Cantona is a notable exception, but I personally think that while he may have been a great footballer, he wasn't a great player, in the sense that football is also about a team attitude, that he didn't have for most of his career, and only when he had Fergie to kinda keep him in check.

I would never use the word 'great' to describe Ibrahimovic, certainly not at this stage of his career. I can't even tell you what Savicevic did to even come close to meritting that title. These days we hand out labels like 'genius', 'great', 'master' and 'legend' like bread on its expiry date at soup kitchens...

I watching football seriously since the wc in the usa and the only players since then i, personally, would ever call great are ronaldo (the original), zidane and (maybe) rivaldo. Giggs might get a bligh because Wales is a crappy team and he do everything he need to do otherwise. Call me severe...

Of course this is off topic in so many ways...
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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2009, 08:02:31 PM »
Yuh know what even more sad bout this question... :'(

They have men playing for the national team with NO CLUB and still playing the arse.



You almost make meh spit up meh coffee yes!!!!! true.  I think the question is one of internal character. 

humility and thankfulness

If people feel like their country never do anything for them they'll show it on the field.  I they feel they is star boy they'll so it on the field too.  Character defines winners.
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Re: Which is more important club or country?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2009, 05:38:36 AM »
Yuh know what even more sad bout this question... :'(

They have men playing for the national team with NO CLUB and still playing the arse.



You almost make meh spit up meh coffee yes!!!!! true.  I think the question is one of internal character. 

humility and thankfulness

If people feel like their country never do anything for them they'll show it on the field.  I they feel they is star boy they'll so it on the field too.  Character defines winners.

I say if a player does not want to give the effort during matches for their country then they should retire from playing international football or decline the invitation. That would be better than giving a half arse effort as if they fooling somebody. A few players have and continue to do it. But also the people picking the team should also take into consideration a man's effort. If you can lose with him you can sure as well lose without him!

 

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