Manchester Derby

[elan]

It go be pressure Man United when they travel to Manchester for te return leg. Hopefully Adebayor and Robinho back in the side by then. Man United squad cya get better than they had today.

[Socapro]

Any time a ref gives additional extra time in a match like this, it is giving extra incentive to the favored HOME team not the away team.. especially at a place like Old Trafford.

Rubbish both teams are from Manchester and as a result are practically at home, that is why its called a Derby! 

you not serious...

Why do you think they refer to games like these as a local derby then?
Its do or die in these games so home advantage is of no consequence to the away team because they are practically playing in their neighbours backyard and trying to stealing mangoes from their neighbour's tree for local bragging rights!!!!  

 

[giggsy11]

I just watch the replay and I see Fergie yucking it up with the 4th official in the background after Owen scored as Hughes is fuming in the foreground. I had some mix feelings with those two contrasting images. Did they have to look so cosy after the opposing manager is thinking he got screwed over? I can understand why and how some people have a dislike for United. But it does even out over the season I just hope it does not even out during an important contest.  

[WestCoast]

It go be pressure Man United when they travel to Manchester for te return leg. Hopefully Adebayor and Robinho back in the side by then. Man United squad cya get better than they had today.

yeah that gobe match up

[jr sams]

Was just looking at Setanta Sports and they were analysing the Injury Time period. First point they noted was that Bellamy scored to make it 3-3 at 89:58. The 4th official had already indicated that there would be a Minimum, of 4 mins to be played in injury time. The celebration for Bellamy's goal was considered excessive and an extra 55 sec was added. The Carrick substitution adds another 30 sec. I never knew this before but apparently it is a rule that for a substitution, extra time is allotted, the amount of which is determined by the referee, but in general its about 30 seconds.
This gives roughly 1min and 25 seconds added to the initial 4 mins.
Owen scored at 95:25. Let me iterate that this is what was broken down on Setanta.

[Socapro]

Was just looking at Setanta Sports and they were analysing the Injury Time period. First point they noted was that Bellamy scored to make it 3-3 at 89:58. The 4th official had already indicated that there would be a Minimum, of 4 mins to be played in injury time. The celebration for Bellamy's goal was considered excessive and an extra 55 sec was added. The Carrick substitution adds another 30 sec. I never knew this before but apparently it is a rule that for a substitution, extra time is allotted, the amount of which is determined by the referee, but in general its about 30 seconds.
This gives roughly 1min and 25 seconds added to the initial 4 mins.
Owen scored at 95:25. Let me iterate that this is what was broken down on Setanta.

So my theory is correct all along that the ref gave Man City some extra extra-time to allow them a chance to reply & equalise and they just couldn't because they were shell shocked after the Man Utd goal!

The better team on the day won but Man City will have a chance for revenge when Man Utd comes to their yard!

[Cantona007]

Any time a ref gives additional extra time in a match like this, it is giving extra incentive to the favored HOME team not the away team.. especially at a place like Old Trafford.

Rubbish!! Both teams are from Manchester and as a result are practically at home, that is why its called a Derby! 

... but United isn't technically located in Manchester. Is like calling Jabloteh vs Joe Public a derby - San Juan & Arouca is two different place.

So all the people who have been calling it the Manchester Derby (including the good people/supporters of Manchester City) for the last hundred years have gotten it wrong all this time? Manchester United's ground is located in the Greater Manchester area... I have never heard any Manchester City fan say that Greater Manchester is not...Manchester.

[Bourbon]

Was just looking at Setanta Sports and they were analysing the Injury Time period. First point they noted was that Bellamy scored to make it 3-3 at 89:58. The 4th official had already indicated that there would be a Minimum, of 4 mins to be played in injury time. The celebration for Bellamy's goal was considered excessive and an extra 55 sec was added. The Carrick substitution adds another 30 sec. I never knew this before but apparently it is a rule that for a substitution, extra time is allotted, the amount of which is determined by the referee, but in general its about 30 seconds.
This gives roughly 1min and 25 seconds added to the initial 4 mins.
Owen scored at 95:25. Let me iterate that this is what was broken down on Setanta.

So my theory is correct all along that the ref gave Man City some extra extra-time to allow them a chance to reply & equalise and they just couldn't because they were shell shocked after the Man Utd goal!

The better team on the day won but Man City will have a chance for revenge when Man Utd comes to their yard!

De time ting apparently fairly widely used. I never really knew bout it..buh when i found out bout it in bout January dis year...i was checking it out while watching games and it kinda held true. Buh guess ppl eh go want to hear dat.

And....while i eh see de game yet..from reports...at least 2 of city goals were due to capitalizing on blunders. Makes for an interesting return leg.

[Bakes]

Was just looking at Setanta Sports and they were analysing the Injury Time period. First point they noted was that Bellamy scored to make it 3-3 at 89:58. The 4th official had already indicated that there would be a Minimum, of 4 mins to be played in injury time. The celebration for Bellamy's goal was considered excessive and an extra 55 sec was added. The Carrick substitution adds another 30 sec. I never knew this before but apparently it is a rule that for a substitution, extra time is allotted, the amount of which is determined by the referee, but in general its about 30 seconds.
This gives roughly 1min and 25 seconds added to the initial 4 mins.
Owen scored at 95:25. Let me iterate that this is what was broken down on Setanta.

De time ting apparently fairly widely used. I never really knew bout it..buh when i found out bout it in bout January dis year...i was checking it out while watching games and it kinda held true. Buh guess ppl eh go want to hear dat.

And....while i eh see de game yet..from reports...at least 2 of city goals were due to capitalizing on blunders. Makes for an interesting return leg.

Allyuh men trying hard and still failing.  Anybody care to explain then how 5:25' turn into 6:58'?  What was de additional 1:33' for... to offset de cross breeze dat was blowing across de stadium clock?

I kinda wish people just call it what it is and cut de bullshit.  Say "hard luck dey City, better luck next time" and leave it at that instead ah trying to justify it.  Dat come like Wenger saying Eduardo didn't dive, he was juss frighten fuh he legs

[Mango Chow!]

Was just looking at Setanta Sports and they were analysing the Injury Time period. First point they noted was that Bellamy scored to make it 3-3 at 89:58. The 4th official had already indicated that there would be a Minimum, of 4 mins to be played in injury time. The celebration for Bellamy's goal was considered excessive and an extra 55 sec was added. The Carrick substitution adds another 30 sec. I never knew this before but apparently it is a rule that for a substitution, extra time is allotted, the amount of which is determined by the referee, but in general its about 30 seconds.
This gives roughly 1min and 25 seconds added to the initial 4 mins.
Owen scored at 95:25. Let me iterate that this is what was broken down on Setanta.

    I saw that, too, on fsc, and I still find is a pack ah ass.  It have ssssssssssssssssso many games I see where teams does use all kindsa time-wasting tactics and the refs doh go nowhere the length over the allotted time ike this ref did today and so many have done @ old trafford.  This is not the first time it happen to benefit manu where you don't see it happen to benefit no other team so often.   If the time taken on a goal celebration can be deemed excessive, then so can the time it takes to make a throw; take a free-kick; take a spot kick, etc. Where does a referee's discretion end?  Whenever manu have a lead and the ball go out for a spot kick, van Der Saar does ALWAYS walk the ball casual, casual to the OPPOSITE side of the six-yard box from where the ball went out, which he obviously, is well entitled to do, but is not customary.  You will NEVER see him do it when they behind.  How come referees doh see DAT? Loud fackin' steups yes!! 

[Bourbon]

Was just looking at Setanta Sports and they were analysing the Injury Time period. First point they noted was that Bellamy scored to make it 3-3 at 89:58. The 4th official had already indicated that there would be a Minimum, of 4 mins to be played in injury time. The celebration for Bellamy's goal was considered excessive and an extra 55 sec was added. The Carrick substitution adds another 30 sec. I never knew this before but apparently it is a rule that for a substitution, extra time is allotted, the amount of which is determined by the referee, but in general its about 30 seconds.
This gives roughly 1min and 25 seconds added to the initial 4 mins.
Owen scored at 95:25. Let me iterate that this is what was broken down on Setanta.

De time ting apparently fairly widely used. I never really knew bout it..buh when i found out bout it in bout January dis year...i was checking it out while watching games and it kinda held true. Buh guess ppl eh go want to hear dat.

And....while i eh see de game yet..from reports...at least 2 of city goals were due to capitalizing on blunders. Makes for an interesting return leg.

Allyuh men trying hard and still failing.  Anybody care to explain then how 5:25' turn into 6:58'?  What was de additional 1:33' for... to offset de cross breeze dat was blowing across de stadium clock?

I kinda wish people just call it what it is and cut de bullshit.  Say "hard luck dey City, better luck next time" and leave it at that instead ah trying to justify it.  Dat come like Wenger saying Eduardo didn't dive, he was juss frighten fuh he legs

Aight...i went and download de game dey...i eh watch it..i skip to de last few minutes.

Bellamy score at 89:55.
Dunno where exactly they kicked off..cuz the channel was broadcasting replays of the goal...but they cut back to the stream at 91:00...couldnt have been 15 seconds after the kick off.
Corner given at 92:17.....
Ref indicates a sub at 92:31
Corner taken at 92:56.
Goal Scored at 95:28.

Look de video i used here

http://filefactory.com/file/a0a2g13/n/Manchester_United_vs_Manchester_City_9-20-2009_2nd_Half_wmv


So.....if there were 4 minutes of stoppage time...and they resumed kick off at 91:00.....plus the 30 seconds for the sub.....it could work out. Yeah it debatable either way. One could say that the 4 minutes were given before the goal was scored.....in that stream i didnt see when the board was raised...but remember the board gives a minimum of time to be played. So yuh could reason out that after the 4 minutes were given..then the goal and the sub...making an extra 1:30 to play for. I eh get to see in this when the game got blown off..but the last frame shows 96:30 and owen on the field looking like he waiting for a kickoff......which making that plausible. In fact in this video you hear the commentators remarking about the time allotment and giving justifications for it. And yeah subs do get used as a time wasting tactic....especially if you have the ball and you could drain more outta it. 

I not claiming no big win. Luck is where preparation meets opportunity. City apparently scored 2 from defensive blunders....United kept on pressing and were fortunate to have enough time. Dahs how de game is. I does try to be as objective as possible too. Buh dat lost on some men. In fact..i hate for any team i supporting to win under any contentious circumstance...buh...as is Manchester United.....it doh even need to have anything contentious......people go find something to say. I was surprised when i first heard about that rule of thumb..but as i said...i tried applying it in games i watched afterward...and it made sense.

Buh yeah...men does use dey biases conviently. Men rating up bout Ade opening a gash on Van Persie.....yet few ppl talkin bout how Van Persie came in with both feet....pegs up. Men does sit down and dissect de simplest of things....and complain months after. Men does want to call ugly football smart tactics when dem side do it...but is a pig with a different name when anybody else does. Football...and allegiance does cloud men objectivity at times. So it goes.

Last year evra get ban for 5 games cuz of de altercation with the groundsman.....chelsea get fined 5000 pounds. Fair? Who knows.

I hear a talk Bellamy slap a fan after...who allegedly spat on him. I guess yuh go hear dey go come down harsh on him cuz is a Man Utd fan.


Yuh cyar expect everybody to be fair...all  yuh hadda be is fair yourself. It debatable...buh..if yuh want to use the time allotted reasoning....yuh could see how it happen. Buh nah.....guess dem rules only apply to Man Utd.


Eh look de rule book as dey apply to Man Utd too....

http://www.fifa.com/flash/lotg/football/en/Laws7_02.htm

Allowance for Time Lost
     Allowance is made in either period for all time lost through:

    * substitution(s);

    * assessment of injury to players;

Dahs page 2.....page 3 has....

Allowance for Time Lost
     

    * removal of injured players from the field of play for treatment;

    * wasting time;

    * any other cause.

    * The allowance for time lost is at the discretion of the referee.

[Cantona007]

From the Independent:


That late winner: Why Hughes was wrong to question officials' timekeeping

*Fourth official Alan Wiley indicates a minimum four minutes added time.

*Under Premier League rules, the referee can play four minutes plus 59 seconds.

*City score an equaliser – the referee, Martin Atkinson, can add 60 seconds for celebration and restart (Hughes admits it took 45 seconds for play to resume).

*United's Anderson is replaced by Michael Carrick – the referee can add 30 seconds for a substitution.

*In these circumstances, Atkinson is entitled to add two minutes, 29 seconds to the original four minutes.

*Substitute Michael Owen scores for United to win the game on 95 minutes, 25 seconds – well within the allotted time.


There is no question that the official acted within the laws of the game and according to his rights as an official. The question is: should he have exercised his rights so...completely?

[Bakes]

Well I not too big to admit when I wrong... in this case it thus appears clear that Martin Atkinson exercised his discretion to the fullest to ensure that as much time as possible was added at the end of the game.

No need get into the actual calls which appeared to be in United's favor... Alan Wylie making jolly and fraternizing with Ferguson on the sidelines as United's players celebrated Owen's goal.  We all know dem tings discretionary.

The timeline is disputable btw... at least from what City says:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article6842017.ece

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/sep/21/mark-hughes-michael-owen-city-united


As a Liverpool fan it really doesn't matter much, both teams were ahead of us in the standings.  In the interest of full disclosure, I was rooting against Man U because I expect them to be contending at the end, I have no such faith in City.  As an objective fan it was a good game to watch... would have been better without the controversy. 

[saga pinto]

The ref is allowed to add time for substitutions during the game, whether it is the beginning, middle or end; he can add time for goals being scored; celebrations; injuries, wasting time ect. Anything that may take away from the game being played in 90 minutes after all is said and done. It all comes down to the ref's discrestion. Some times the added time is never enough or is to much.

Ah doh know about that nah the rules are very clear time added on is time added on no more no less and if fifa officials looking on took notice should challenge that referee for clearly taking sides.

If the shoe was on the other foot ferguson would'nt let that go but then again the game of football is about taking it however yuh get it......

[saga pinto]

Any time a ref gives additional extra time in a match like this, it is giving extra incentive to the favored HOME team not the away team.. especially at a place like Old Trafford.

Rubbish both teams are from Manchester and as a result are practically at home, that is why its called a Derby! 

you not serious...

dinho doh study them nah,yuh remember that saying "ignorance is bliss non the wise to know"it applies here on this thread.

[Bitter]

Best derby of all time, claims gloating Fergie

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/football/09/21/football.manchester.derby.ferguson.hughes/

(CNN) -- Manchester United manager Alex Ferguson hailed his side's rollercoaster 4-3 victory over neighbors Manchester City at Old Trafford as the "best derby of all time."

Ferguson made the claim while ruing his side's sloppy defensive play which allowed City to claim three equalizing goals before Michael Owen's clinical winner deep into injury time on Sunday.

"It could have been an embarrassment, 6-0 or 7-0, if we defended our proper way," claimed the legendary Scot.

"We could have won by a big score but by making mistakes, which was the essence of the game, we probably were in the best derby game of all time.

"What do you choose? Win the best derby game of all time or win 6-0? I'd probably pick 6-0."

The build-up to the match had been marked by a war of words between Ferguson and City manager Mark Hughes, who has been handed a massive transfer budget by his side's Abu Dhabi owners.

Ferguson had branded them "cocky" and did little to dampen down the rivalry with his post match comments.

"Sometimes you have a noisy neighbor. You cannot do anything about that. They will always be noisy," he said.

"You just have to get on with your life, put your television on and turn it up a bit louder.

"Today the players showed their form. That is the best answer of all."

By contrast, City manager Mark Hughes was furious with referee Martin Atkinson for the amount of added time played, with Owen scoring in the 96th minute.

"We need an explanation because I don't know why the referee has added that amount of time on," said Hughes.

"We just feel a little bit aggrieved that they were given that time."

It was a heartbreaking finale for his team with Bellamy's magnificent second goal after a mistake by Rio Ferdinand appearing to give his up and coming side a share of the spoils.

"We're disappointed, we put in a hell of a shift today," said Hughes. "Craig Bellamy scored two magnificent goals. He didn't deserve to be on the losing side," added Hughes.

Ferguson, who has used free transfer signing Owen sparingly this season, said the England striker showed his true quality.

"His positional play, first touch and finish were absolutely superb. World class."

The victory took United to second place in the English Premier League behind pacesetting Chelsea with City suffering their first defeat of the season.

[Cantona007]

The ref is allowed to add time for substitutions during the game, whether it is the beginning, middle or end; he can add time for goals being scored; celebrations; injuries, wasting time ect. Anything that may take away from the game being played in 90 minutes after all is said and done. It all comes down to the ref's discrestion. Some times the added time is never enough or is to much.

Ah doh know about that nah the rules are very clear time added on is time added on no more no less and if fifa officials looking on took notice should challenge that referee for clearly taking sides.

If the shoe was on the other foot ferguson would'nt let that go but then again the game of football is about taking it however yuh get it......

Please see above re: rules for time added on.

[Bakes]

Yeah Bitter... I was very surprised at how unsporting Ferguson was in the aftermath of the match.  You'd expect someone as esteemed and accomplished as him to be above that sort of thing.  He makes Roy Keane seem like the quintessential gentleman by comparison.

Just check out the links I posted earlier from the Times and The Guardian.

[Blue]

Yeah Bitter... I was very surprised at how unsporting Ferguson was in the aftermath of the match.  You'd expect someone as esteemed and accomplished as him to be above that sort of thing.  He makes Roy Keane seem like the quintessential gentleman by comparison.

Just check out the links I posted earlier from the Times and The Guardian.

His comments were made in the heat of the moment, on the pitch seconds after the game had finished. He asked (rhetorically) which was better, 4-3 or 6-0, and he was actually implying that the 4-3 was better, ie - both teams had put on a helluva show. It was only after that he jokingly answered his own question, saying he would prefer the 6-0.

Anyway, much more entertaining than the age-old, "well the most important thing was the 3 points".

[Small Magician aka Wazza]

Legend Fergie

[grimm01]

whether that ref was right or wrong for the extra time, the time was there for either team to use to their advantage. ManU did and City didn't.

[DeSoWa]

No way but down for ManU from here...they can't really get any better...ManC has the potential to get much better than the are now!

Big Up!

[Bakes]

His comments were made in the heat of the moment, on the pitch seconds after the game had finished. He asked (rhetorically) which was better, 4-3 or 6-0, and he was actually implying that the 4-3 was better, ie - both teams had put on a helluva show. It was only after that he jokingly answered his own question, saying he would prefer the 6-0.

Anyway, much more entertaining than the age-old, "well the most important thing was the 3 points".

Maybe I missed it... but how does that excuse his poor sportsmanship?  Gloating hardly becomes someone of his age, tenure and experience.  You would think that he would conduct himself in a manner befitting the honorific he was granted and which prefaces his name.  But then again it only shows that just because you've been given status it doesn't mean that you attain class.

[kicker]

SAF was clearly under alot of pressure during this one.  He talked a big game and tried to belittle his opponents verbally, but you could tell that he didn't have full confidence that his troops would pull it off and he was scared that he'd be made to look like an @$$ if they ended up on the wrong side of the score line.  His goal celebrations reflected this, and his post-game interview responses were those of relief disguised as false confidence/arrogance.  I think a full-strength Man City playing at C.O.M stadium could get revenge in the next installment of this derby this season- that said, Man City has a ways to go....Man U, hate them or not, along with Chelsea is still the most capable unit running in England right now...

[WestCoast]

No way but down for ManU from here...they can't really get any better...ManC has the potential to get much better than the are now!

Big Up!

dem is fighting words there man
all dem manure boys coming
4 you

[giggsy11]

A fan commenting on Ferdinad "The last two seasons excepted, Ferdinand’s defending has constantly given me the heebie geebies." Leeds Utd sold Man Utd a virus in Ferdinand. 
"Agree wholeheartedly about Giggs - pure class."

[xixgon]

BBC Match of the Day 2 broke down the time added - recapped in this article.


http://therepublikofmancunia.com/bitter-city-make-false-injury-time-complaint-awww/


Utd were the better team - City scored off of 3 errors, were dominated in the second half and would have been steamrolled if not for some more dodgy finishing by Berbatov. Bitter 'noisy neighbours' trying to hide the fact that they defended even worse in this game than Utd. That's why you don't invite pressure on u and actually try and hang onto the ball instead of leaving one of the best poachers in the history of the EPL wide open in the dying seconds of the game.

City can complain all they want - but still have a ways to go - a 35 year old Giggs showing them just how far.

Will be lucky to avoid another ban on one of their strikers as well - Bellamy's cheap shot on the Utd fan was cowardly and thuggish at best.

[Bakes]

BBC Match of the Day 2 broke down the time added - recapped in this article.


http://therepublikofmancunia.com/bitter-city-make-false-injury-time-complaint-awww/


Utd were the better team - City scored off of 3 errors, were dominated in the second half and would have been steamrolled if not for some more dodgy finishing by Berbatov. Bitter 'noisy neighbours' trying to hide the fact that they defended even worse in this game than Utd. That's why you don't invite pressure on u and actually try and hang onto the ball instead of leaving one of the best poachers in the history of the EPL wide open in the dying seconds of the game.

City can complain all they want - but still have a ways to go - a 35 year old Giggs showing them just how far.

Will be lucky to avoid another ban on one of their strikers as well - Bellamy's cheap shot on the Utd fan was cowardly and thuggish at best.

According to the London Times the fan spat on Bellamy... you call his response a "cheap shot", one can only assume that you know a more accurate version of events as reported.  Assuming the guy did in fact spit on him... what do you propose his response should have been?  Fuh shits and giggles... humor us with a suggestion nah.

Not that I particularly care... but I'm having too much fun pushing the conversation to see just how far you guys will go to explain the inexplicable.  So the goal was scored on 95'27... Shea Given wasted a minute and a half on his goal kick?  The fuzzy math doesn't add up... would be nice fuh allyuh men to just admit it, but is fun watching allyuh try to explain it all the same.

[MarylandTrini]

-----------Breaking News-------------
Tuesday 11:17am
Giggs just scored to make it Utd 5 - City 3

[xixgon]

BBC Match of the Day 2 broke down the time added - recapped in this article.


http://therepublikofmancunia.com/bitter-city-make-false-injury-time-complaint-awww/


Utd were the better team - City scored off of 3 errors, were dominated in the second half and would have been steamrolled if not for some more dodgy finishing by Berbatov. Bitter 'noisy neighbours' trying to hide the fact that they defended even worse in this game than Utd. That's why you don't invite pressure on u and actually try and hang onto the ball instead of leaving one of the best poachers in the history of the EPL wide open in the dying seconds of the game.

City can complain all they want - but still have a ways to go - a 35 year old Giggs showing them just how far.

Will be lucky to avoid another ban on one of their strikers as well - Bellamy's cheap shot on the Utd fan was cowardly and thuggish at best.

According to the London Times the fan spat on Bellamy... you call his response a "cheap shot", one can only assume that you know a more accurate version of events as reported.  Assuming the guy did in fact spit on him... what do you propose his response should have been?  Fuh shits and giggles... humor us with a suggestion nah.

Not that I particularly care... but I'm having too much fun pushing the conversation to see just how far you guys will go to explain the inexplicable.  So the goal was scored on 95'27... Shea Given wasted a minute and a half on his goal kick?  The fuzzy math doesn't add up... would be nice fuh allyuh men to just admit it, but is fun watching allyuh try to explain it all the same.

Bellamy went out of his way to walk over and confront the fan, it's not as if the fan ran up to him and spat on him. I could care less if the fan got smacked or not from my perspective, he's an idiot for running on the field (which carries an automatic 3 year stadium ban). But from the FA's perspective - I seriously doubt they're going to have much sympathy for Bellamy considering his history and even more doubtful that they're going to believe Hughes claim that it was 'self defense' considering the fan was being restrained by 3 stewards when Bellamy chose to have a go at him. He is supposed to be a professional at the end of the day - so unless the fan tried to physically harm him (which he didn't) - he has no real excuse for what he did.

In terms of the added time:-

1. 4 mins were originally specified by the ref (which can't be claimed to have been to the benefit of Utd, seeing as they were ahead long before it was announced).

2. 56 extra seconds for Bellamy's celebration.

3. 30 extra seconds for the Carrick substitution.

= 5 mins 26 seconds.

Owen scored at 5 mins and 27 seconds.

Now unless you expected the ref to blow the full-time whistle the moment Owen touched the ball in the 6 yard box, I don't see how anyone (and no respected figure in the footballing world ultimately has) can refute whether the ref approached matters correctly.

City were given 4 mins to equalize with Utd and even go on to win the game (one of which occurred) - it's just too bad for them that they chose to sit back and gift possession and space to Utd to capitalize on. I'm fairly sure none of you would be saying anything if City had scored in this time - with the plain fact of the matter being that they didn't deserve anything from this game, and were in all honesty, flattered by the 4-3 scoreline.