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Offline Midknight

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Some sobering statistics
« on: September 18, 2009, 11:48:59 AM »
Since 1990, it have three big team in Concacaf.
Check we record against them in competitive fixtures

World Cup
       P  W  D  L  GF  GA  Pts
USA 11  1  2  9   4   18    5
MEX 8   2  1  5   6    19   7
CRC  9   0 2  7   4    15   2
WC  28  3 5  21 14   52   11
 
       P  W  D  L  GF  GA  Pts
USA  3  0   0  3  3     7    0
MEX  2  0   0  2  2     8    0
CRC  3  2   1  0  5     3    7
GC   8   2   1  5 10    18  7

ALL  36 5   6  26 24   70  18

We could count de men who score against these teams who still playing on 1 hand

We could count the clean sheets we keep against these teams on one ha,d.

We fighting for fourth place before a ball even kick.
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Offline FF

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2009, 11:50:39 AM »
We beat all dem teams once... we could do it again

THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES

Offline Observer

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2009, 12:27:58 PM »
We beat all dem teams once... we could do it again




How many times they beat us? They can do it again! No disrespect!

Tks Midnight
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Offline Trini

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2009, 12:48:18 PM »
FF right, of course we can beat them again....BUT, if you lump all Midnight's stats together, history shows us that we win only 15% of our games against the big 3.
Or to put it another way, we will win one in every 7 games we play against these top 3 teams.
Last time we won was when we beat the USA last Oct. Since then we have gone 4 games against the top 3...

You could spin numbers any way u want, but the bottom line is that we are really fighting for 4th spot before a ball is kicked.

Also, keep in mind that these top 3 teams have been in the Hex consistently since 1990, it is no shame to be in the same company, as T&T have been the only other CONCACAF team to be in the HEX for the last 3 straight times.
throw in two T&T teams in the Champions Leage and the U-20's getting ready for the World Cup kick off, things not all that doom and gloom.

There is a unspoken hierarchy in CONCACAF
Level 1 - USA and MEX, who on average will be competitive against ANYONE in world football.
Level 2 - Costa Rica, who are a bit more inconsistent, they could win the Hex or struggle to finish 3rd.
Level 3 - T&T, Honduras, Jamaica - who need either some other teams to flop, have a helluva team assembled that is in form and some luck to make the WC
Level 4 - teams like Canada, El Salvador, Panama, Haiti, who on a good day can beat anyone in level 2 and lower and be very competitive agasint Level 1.

For T&T to get an automatic  qualification, we need
1) Luck
2) Real Bad luck for one of the top 3 teams
3) one of the top 3 teams getting banned, a la 1990 Road to Italy scenario
4) A World Cup to be held in Mexico or the USA, thus eliminate them from the running (but then we may only get 2 automatic spots)

Anytime we fail to make the HEX, it should be considered a catastrophic failure.
Anytime we finish 5-6 in the HEX, a failure of course, but not catastrophic.
Anytime we finish 4th and get a playoff, very well done considering the circumstances.
Anytime we finish 1-3, will be like Usain Bolt breaking the world record!

Offline Preacher

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2009, 08:13:58 PM »
FF right, of course we can beat them again....BUT, if you lump all Midnight's stats together, history shows us that we win only 15% of our games against the big 3.
Or to put it another way, we will win one in every 7 games we play against these top 3 teams.
Last time we won was when we beat the USA last Oct. Since then we have gone 4 games against the top 3...

You could spin numbers any way u want, but the bottom line is that we are really fighting for 4th spot before a ball is kicked.

Also, keep in mind that these top 3 teams have been in the Hex consistently since 1990, it is no shame to be in the same company, as T&T have been the only other CONCACAF team to be in the HEX for the last 3 straight times.
throw in two T&T teams in the Champions Leage and the U-20's getting ready for the World Cup kick off, things not all that doom and gloom.

There is a unspoken hierarchy in CONCACAF
Level 1 - USA and MEX, who on average will be competitive against ANYONE in world football.
Level 2 - Costa Rica, who are a bit more inconsistent, they could win the Hex or struggle to finish 3rd.
Level 3 - T&T, Honduras, Jamaica - who need either some other teams to flop, have a helluva team assembled that is in form and some luck to make the WC
Level 4 - teams like Canada, El Salvador, Panama, Haiti, who on a good day can beat anyone in level 2 and lower and be very competitive agasint Level 1.

For T&T to get an automatic  qualification, we need
1) Luck
2) Real Bad luck for one of the top 3 teams
3) one of the top 3 teams getting banned, a la 1990 Road to Italy scenario
4) A World Cup to be held in Mexico or the USA, thus eliminate them from the running (but then we may only get 2 automatic spots)

Anytime we fail to make the HEX, it should be considered a catastrophic failure.
Anytime we finish 5-6 in the HEX, a failure of course, but not catastrophic.
Anytime we finish 4th and get a playoff, very well done considering the circumstances.
Anytime we finish 1-3, will be like Usain Bolt breaking the world record!

Very well put together.  You and Midnight on spot.  However, FF unto something whereby I believe that the stats mentioned are not going to hold true anymore.  I believe the this Hex and 2013 will produce a different look.  For this Hex i don't think any team but Honduras disposed of us.  We messed up ourselves.   I don't see US or Mex commanding the same respect ever again in this region, ever again.  On the contrary, expect other teams to start breaking in the the Hex. 
In Everything give thanks for this is the will of God concerning you.

Offline Socapro

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2009, 08:29:48 PM »
We beat all dem teams once... we could do it again




How many times they beat us? They can do it again! No disrespect!

Tks Midnight

Habits become expectations and then to make matters worse not being able to beat them becomes a psychological problem!
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 07:09:50 PM by Socapro »
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Preacher

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2009, 08:34:08 PM »
We beat all dem teams once... we could do it again




How many times they beat us? They can do it again! No disrespect!

Tks Midnight

Habits become expectations and then to make matters worse not being able to beat them becomes a physiological problem!

So I see us moving beyond that barrier.  We could have been the USA the last time so we'll grow.
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Offline Midknight

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2009, 08:22:51 AM »
Another one
Appearances for Trinidad and Tobago National Team - The Next generation

Players                                Years Active      Caps    Goals
Densill THEOBALD              * 2002-2009       66      2
Cornell GLEN                  * 2002-2009       56     22
Brent SANCHO                  * 1999-2006       43      0
Kenwyne JONES                 * 2003-2009       41      4
Silvio SPANN                  * 2002-2009       40      2
Kerry BAPTISTE                * 2003-2009       39      3
Christopher BIRCHALL          * 2005-2009       35      4
Keon DANIEL                   * 2008-2009       33      8
Makan HISLOP                  * 2007-2008       25      0
Michael MAURICE                 1980-1996       25      0
Collin SAMUEL                 * 2002-2009       24      6
Jan Michael WILLIAMS          * 2003-2009       24      0
Anthony WOLFE                 * 2007-2009       24      0
Clyde LEON                    * 2004-2009       23      1
Akile EDWARDS                 * 2008-2009       22      1
Marvin PHILLIP                * 2007-2009       22      0
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Offline Tallman

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2009, 03:08:55 PM »
Appearances for Trinidad and Tobago National Team - The Next generation

Players                                Years Active      Caps    Goals
Michael MAURICE                 1980-1996       25      0

Hmmm...... :devil:
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2009, 05:48:16 PM »
Habits become expectations and then to make matters worse not being able to beat them becomes a physiological problem!

Unless yuh trying tuh say man bamsee does get tight, I think you mean psychological.

Offline Tallman

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2009, 05:49:24 PM »
Another one
Appearances for Trinidad and Tobago National Team - The Next generation

Players                                Years Active      Caps    Goals
Densill THEOBALD              * 2002-2009       66      2
Cornell GLEN                  * 2002-2009       56     22
Brent SANCHO                  * 1999-2006       43      0
Kenwyne JONES                 * 2003-2009       41      4
Silvio SPANN                  * 2002-2009       40      2
Kerry BAPTISTE                * 2003-2009       39      3
Christopher BIRCHALL          * 2005-2009       35      4
Keon DANIEL                   * 2008-2009       33      8
Makan HISLOP                  * 2007-2008       25      0
Michael MAURICE                 1980-1996       25      0
Collin SAMUEL                 * 2002-2009       24      6
Jan Michael WILLIAMS          * 2003-2009       24      0
Anthony WOLFE                 * 2007-2009       24      0
Clyde LEON                    * 2004-2009       23      1
Akile EDWARDS                 * 2008-2009       22      1
Marvin PHILLIP                * 2007-2009       22      0

Where yuh get dem stats from? I have slightly different numbers:

PlayersYears ActiveCapsGoals
Densill THEOBALD2002-2009
Cornell GLEN2002-2009
Brent SANCHO2000-2006
0
Kenwyne JONES2003-2009
Silvio SPANN2002-2009
Kerry BAPTISTE2003-2009
Christopher BIRCHALL2005-2009
Keon DANIEL2008-2009
Makan HISLOP2007-2008
0
Collin SAMUEL2002-2009
Jan-Michael WILLIAMS2003-2009
0
Anthony WOLFE2003-2009
Clyde LEON2004-2009
Aklie EDWARDS2008-2009
Marvin PHILLIP2007-2009
0
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Offline Socapro

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2009, 07:09:09 PM »
Habits become expectations and then to make matters worse not being able to beat them becomes a physiological problem!

Unless yuh trying tuh say man bamsee does get tight, I think you mean psychological.

Okay thanks, that was the damn spell check, correction made!   8)
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Socapro

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2009, 07:13:17 PM »
Another one
Appearances for Trinidad and Tobago National Team - The Next generation

Players                                Years Active      Caps    Goals
Densill THEOBALD              * 2002-2009       66      2
Cornell GLEN                  * 2002-2009       56     22
Brent SANCHO                  * 1999-2006       43      0
Kenwyne JONES                 * 2003-2009       41      4
Silvio SPANN                  * 2002-2009       40      2
Kerry BAPTISTE                * 2003-2009       39      3
Christopher BIRCHALL          * 2005-2009       35      4
Keon DANIEL                   * 2008-2009       33      8
Makan HISLOP                  * 2007-2008       25      0
Michael MAURICE                 1980-1996       25      0
Collin SAMUEL                 * 2002-2009       24      6
Jan Michael WILLIAMS          * 2003-2009       24      0
Anthony WOLFE                 * 2007-2009       24      0
Clyde LEON                    * 2004-2009       23      1
Akile EDWARDS                 * 2008-2009       22      1
Marvin PHILLIP                * 2007-2009       22      0

Where yuh get dem stats from? I have slightly different numbers:

PlayersYears ActiveCapsGoals
Densill THEOBALD2002-2009
Cornell GLEN2002-2009
Brent SANCHO2000-2006
0
Kenwyne JONES2003-2009
Silvio SPANN2002-2009
Kerry BAPTISTE2003-2009
Christopher BIRCHALL2005-2009
Keon DANIEL2008-2009
Makan HISLOP2007-2008
0
Collin SAMUEL2002-2009
Jan-Michael WILLIAMS2003-2009
0
Anthony WOLFE2003-2009
Clyde LEON2004-2009
Aklie EDWARDS2008-2009
Marvin PHILLIP2007-2009
0

Why is Carlos Edwards not included in that list?
He's the best man to be our future senior captain apart from being included in the squad!
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Bakes

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2009, 09:57:46 PM »
Habits become expectations and then to make matters worse not being able to beat them becomes a physiological problem!

Unless yuh trying tuh say man bamsee does get tight, I think you mean psychological.

Okay thanks, that was the damn spell check, correction made!   8)

Lol... although ah sure nuff ah dem does "tighten up" on de field in big games, causing we tuh fack up and fall behind early.

Offline Coop's

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2009, 04:20:24 AM »
After browsing through those stats i come to the conclusion if we can't break into the first three i don't think we ready for any WC finals,we should not be rating ourselves a powerhouse in the region,for instance yes we in the hex but look at where we are and clinging on to hopes with every little point we get,our players are always playing under a set of pressure because we always depending on some point to keep us in the runnings.

Offline Deeks

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2009, 08:01:41 AM »
Coops,
              I agree. Dispite this nightmare campaign I do see some positives. Starting with the U-20. (I want TTFF make eat my words). Together wit a couple of the present seniors, they should be better prepared for 2014. Remeber pre-qualification start at around the end of 2011 and beginning 2012. We don't have 4 yrs as some of us may want to think.

Offline Socapro

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2009, 08:08:57 AM »
Coops,
              I agree. Dispite this nightmare campaign I do see some positives. Starting with the U-20. (I want TTFF make eat my words). Together wit a couple of the present seniors, they should be better prepared for 2014. Remeber pre-qualification start at around the end of 2011 and beginning 2012. We don't have 4 yrs as some of us may want to think.

Good point about us having less than 4 years to get ourselves ready to be in the top 3 in CONCACAF so we could stop clutching at straws!
De higher a monkey climbs is de less his ass is on de line, if he works for FIFA that is! ;-)

Offline Trini

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2009, 12:46:34 PM »
correct!
WCQ for 2014 begin in 2012.
And we saw what 2 years in limbo after Germany (large part due to blacklist) can do, we almost did not make it out the first round tie.

Tournaments like the Caribbean Cup, Gold Cup etc are very important to settle on your core team.
U dont want in the middle of the HEX to be playing a back 4 who have never played together. Madness.

Them 2 years is to settle on your pool of about 30-35 players who will be part of the 2014 drive.
We should be aiming to play an international every single FIFA break we have, even if we start small playing Caribbean opposition like Barbados/Cuba/Jamaica/Haiti.

We also need to dash away the hope of the U-20's being groomed for the 2014 run and how well they will do.
Things dont work so in international football.
If we have 3-4 players from that team for 2014, i will be surprised.
Players peak early and fall off, some players peak later on, some players will loose the zeal for the game etc etc.
We had a good U17 team in the 2001 WC, how many players from that team playing now for the seniors?
What abot the yorke led 1991 team? We didnt even make the semi-final stages in 1994.
We dont dont have the resources nor will to develop teams for the long term.

Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2009, 04:25:44 PM »
Coops,
              I agree. Dispite this nightmare campaign I do see some positives. Starting with the U-20. (I want TTFF make eat my words). Together wit a couple of the present seniors, they should be better prepared for 2014. Remeber pre-qualification start at around the end of 2011 and beginning 2012. We don't have 4 yrs as some of us may want to think.

We definitely don’t have 4 years. And my guess is the U20s won’t figure as prominently in the next WCQ cycle as most seem to expect. And 2014 will be no cakewalk. Here’s why.

(1) Midfield. We have Tinto, Carlos, Birchall, Noel, Guerra, Roberts, Daniel, Colin Samuel, Leon, Hector. Kevon Neaves might get a call. Paul and DeSilva playing US College, so the only U20s challenging for a spot might be Rochford, Molino, Hyland, M Joseph. Only Hyland likely to get a starting spot. And under Latapy that is not a given.

(2) Forwards. We have Jones, Scotland, Roberts, Glen, Baptiste, Randy Patterson and some PL hopefuls. Gay, Lougheed and Clarence challenging. The only U20 player so far with a chance of starting from among that pool is Gay. Definitely not a given either.

(3) Defence. Here is where the U20 program really reaped the most dividends. IMO any one of Primus, Adams, Bateau, Cyrus can start against Caribbean opposition right now, Adams performance against JA notwithstanding. But will these guys be ready to contain sustained attacks from an Altidore, Pavon, or Blanco in 2-3 years? Plus they will face stiff competition from James, Farrier, Javed Mohammed and Marshall.

(4) We have 2 years to find a team consisting mainly of young players, many of whom will come from the Pro-League, that can consistently beat the likes of Costa Rica, Honduras and Mexico. An uphill task by any measure.

If we learn from the U20 experiment and apply those lessons to the upcoming generation we could have a bomb squad that WILL be ready to challenge the CONCACAF big 3 in time for the 2018 Hex. But most folks don’t want to look so far ahead.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 04:27:50 PM by ZANDOLIE »
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Offline Deeks

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2009, 05:36:46 PM »
I do hope the TTFF participate in the CAC, Panam and Olimpic qualifiers. That will be good experience for them

Offline Coop's

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2009, 10:40:59 PM »
I do hope the TTFF participate in the CAC, Panam and Olimpic qualifiers. That will be good experience for them
       Could the Pros play in these tournaments?

Offline Deeks

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2009, 10:08:00 AM »
coops,
            yes, pros can play, but there is an age restriction. It maybe U-23.

Offline Observer

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2009, 10:15:06 AM »
CAC Games? They still have football in that? I don't think so!
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Offline Tallman

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2009, 10:20:02 AM »
CAC Games? They still have football in that? I don't think so!

Yeh man, but we buss de last time and missed out on qualification for de 2006 games in Colombia. De next one is July 2010 in Puerto Rico.
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Offline palos

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2009, 10:25:54 AM »
Hypotehtical starting XI for first 2014 WCQ


Marvin Phillip - goalie
Carlos Edwards - right wing back
Yohance Marshall - central defender
Robert Primus - central defender
J Lloyd Samuel - left wing back
Christopher Birchall - central midfielder
Khaleem Hyland - central midfielder
Hayden Tinto - attacking midfielder
Kevon Neaves - wide midfelder
Cornell Glen - striker
Kenwyne Jones - striker
 
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline palos

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2009, 10:26:15 AM »
CAC Games? They still have football in that? I don't think so!

Yeh man, but we buss de last time and missed out on qualification for de 2006 games in Colombia. De next one is July 2010 in Puerto Rico.

Daz de one whey Ron La was coach?  ;D
Carlos "The Rolls Royce" Edwards

Offline Midknight

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2009, 08:44:01 AM »
Michael Maurice is a mistake, obviously. Brent Sancho is there for illustrative purposes, I'm not saying he should be in the "next generation"

Carlos not on the list because I starting to have doubts on his ability to stay fit, injury free and at the top level in three-four years. Sometimes I also doubt thta he his captain material, regardless of whether he is our best/most experienced player on the field.

I believe he has a paltry three goals scored for us or something like that.

Tall man, your figures more likely to be correct, I don't think RSSSF has the most recent matches added in.
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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2009, 10:39:11 AM »
Carlos not on the list because I starting to have doubts on his ability to stay fit, injury free and at the top level in three-four years. Sometimes I also doubt thta he his captain material, regardless of whether he is our best/most experienced player on the field.

I believe he has a paltry three goals scored for us or something like that.

Is Carlos' primary role to score goals for T&T?

If not, what impact does this have on his ability (or lack thereof as you seem to suggest) to lead the team?
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Offline Midknight

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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2009, 01:46:14 PM »
Sometimes lack of time does get u in trouble

All I meant to say is that the Next Gen stats was designed to get ppl to realise how few goalscorers we have among the experienced ones Carlos is just a casualty of that phenomenon, especially in light of his poor crossing
Carlos not on the list because I starting to have doubts on his ability to stay fit, injury free and at the top level in three-four years. Sometimes I also doubt thta he his captain material, regardless of whether he is our best/most experienced player on the field.

I believe he has a paltry three goals scored for us or something like that.

Is Carlos' primary role to score goals for T&T?

If not, what impact does this have on his ability (or lack thereof as you seem to suggest) to lead the team?
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Re: Some sobering statistics
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2009, 02:07:48 PM »
All I meant to say is that the Next Gen stats was designed to get ppl to realise how few goalscorers we have among the experienced ones...

Outside of Stern, de only active T&T ballers wit ah decent amount of goals are Dwarika with 28 and Cornell with 23.
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