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Offline Cantona007

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Premier League risks 'implosion'
« on: October 06, 2009, 09:07:25 PM »
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-risks-implosion-1798565.html

Wages must be capped to avert crisis, warns key figure at meeting of football minds


The leaders of British football will be warned today that the sport faces implosion if it fails to introduce financial controls, including salary caps and spending limits, which will prevent the powerful few destroying its competitiveness and general appeal.

The case for controls on financial outlay, which Uefa president Michel Platini wants to see enshrined by 2012, will be argued by the commissioner of Major League Soccer (MLS) Don Garber, who this morning addresses the sport's Leaders in Football conference at Stamford Bridge.

Garber will argue that the Premier League risks driving the "passion" out of the sport by allowing spending to go unchecked and states that the financial perils associated with dependence on major investors risks causing the same disasters for British sides that the North American Soccer League did in the 1980s with its move for big name players including Pele and Franz Beckenbauer. The difficulties which Portsmouth have experienced and the problems facing Notts County make Garber's comments timely – though they will not be well received by the Premier League big spenders.

Garber, who will put his case in a session entitled "Managing the Wealth Gap" chaired by the Football League's chairman Lord Mawhinney, said yesterday that the MLS offered "if not a blueprint, a guide as European football starts looking at financial fair play." He said: "That is the key to the stability that exists in our major leagues. I'm not so sure that same stability exists around the world."

Platini is intent on ensuring that by 2012 Champions League entrants will be obliged to balance their books and two months ago suggested that he counted Chelsea's proprietor Roman Abramovich among his supporters. Manchester City's owner Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed al-Nahyan, whose investment of more than £200m on 11 players in 12 months Uefa has condemned as an inflationary danger for clubs across European football, argues that spending is the only way of breaking the four-club cartel at the top of the Premier League.

But Garber said the MLS's $2.3m (£1.45m) salary cap per team was more "sophisticated." He argued: "We tend to be very sophisticated about the business of sport and that sophistication has led to great success. The rest of the world tries to look at it to get a better understanding of sport, particularly as European football continues to [grapple] with the wealth gap. We still remain a niche sport and we have to make sure we are managing to be financially viable. I think it's really smart for European football to start thinking about that."

Results suggest that Garber has a point. There have been six different winners of the MLS since its inception in 1996, compared to three different Premier League champions in the same time span. "We believe to our core that every fan wants to believe that when the season starts they have the tools, the capability, the resources to compete for the championship," Garber said. "I am just astounded how quickly teams can turn their fortunes around by spending more money. I think they are playing by different rules."

Leaders in Football: Key issues at the conference

How to measure performance

Mike Forde, the performance director at Chelsea, and the former Tottenham director of football, Damien Comolli, will discuss how they measure performance as part of a greater discussion on the identification, measurement and management of player performance. Valter di Salvo, Real Madrid's head of performance, will also participate.

How to buy and manage talent

Gérard Houllier, once of Liverpool but more recently of Lyons, will be talking about buying and managing of talent. Houllier, part of part of Uefa's and Fifa's Technical Committee at the 2002 and 2006 World Cup finals, will be joined by Bernie Mullin – of the NBA's Atlanta Hawks – and Tony Copsey the departing chief executive of rugby union club Wasps.
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Offline Jah Gol

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 09:50:42 PM »
I imagine the sentiment in that room will be "Who is Don Garber ?"

Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 11:25:23 PM »
Salary caps are a decidedly American invention... surprisingly so given this country's Capitalist leanings.  EU laws look askance at anti-competition tools such as salary caps... surprisingly so given (continental) Europe's more Socialist bent.  UEFA is pushing for financial controls (including salary caps)... UEFA is subject Articles 81 EC and 82 EC.

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I imagine the sentiment in that room will be "Who is Don Garber ?"

Trust me... dem know who Don Garber is.

Offline Observer

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 07:18:53 AM »
Salary caps are a decidedly American invention... surprisingly so given this country's Capitalist leanings.  EU laws look askance at anti-competition tools such as salary caps... surprisingly so given (continental) Europe's more Socialist bent.  UEFA is pushing for financial controls (including salary caps)... UEFA is subject Articles 81 EC and 82 EC.

The irrestible force meets the immovable object.



I imagine the sentiment in that room will be "Who is Don Garber ?"

Trust me... dem know who Don Garber is.

I am sure they know who he is, but it is a bloody joke. Here is a league (MLS) propped up by basically three Private owners and paying a large majority of its athletes way below minimum wage. Breaking all labour laws with no guranteed contracts (for most). Telling a multi million dollar operation how to take care of its home  :joker:
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Offline Mad Scorpion a/k/a Big Bo$$

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 09:30:54 AM »
Salary caps are a decidedly American invention... surprisingly so given this country's Capitalist leanings.  EU laws look askance at anti-competition tools such as salary caps... surprisingly so given (continental) Europe's more Socialist bent.  UEFA is pushing for financial controls (including salary caps)... UEFA is subject Articles 81 EC and 82 EC.

The irrestible force meets the immovable object.



I imagine the sentiment in that room will be "Who is Don Garber ?"

Trust me... dem know who Don Garber is.

The only problem with what Gerber offers is that some will find it hypocritical when MLS has the "Superstar" a/k/a the Beckham rule.  This rule allows teams to find a mega star player and offer seemingly rediculous sums to play in MLS.  At the height of Ronaldihno's career he was offered more than 100M to play in MLS.  How good is that for competition?  Can these teams actually handle such financial responsibility?  While some big spending teams create a ridiculous spending atmosphere in Europe, most teams operate within their means (it would seem) and appear to be competitive.  Look at Arsenal for example and we can see that they are very frugal yet extremely competitive.  For all the money Man City spent it isn't a guarantee of anything. 

Offline KND2

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 09:43:12 AM »
ownwers need to be more sensible

why pay a man millions to sit on the bench, just in case a next man get injured.

The fact is , these rich men dont care about money, They care about winning. As long as they winning they fine.

You think ambramovich care if he waste 100 million pounds.

If he walk out and chelsea crash that is thier business.

You can win without spending the big money you just need to think outside the box.

Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 12:54:23 PM »
I am sure they know who he is, but it is a bloody joke. Here is a league (MLS) propped up by basically three Private owners and paying a large majority of its athletes way below minimum wage. Breaking all labour laws with no guranteed contracts (for most). Telling a multi million dollar operation how to take care of its home  :joker:

You miss the point spectacularly.  Garber isn't there to tell "a multi million dollar operation how to take care of its home" he's there to make a management presentation in favor of salary caps.  Feel free to be critical of how MLS runs its league (administration) all you want, but the management model they are proposing has already proven successful in the US with salary caps being seen in the NFL, NBA and MLB.  It's probably least effective in MLB where teams like the Yankees and a handful others scoff at the salary caps, flaunt them openly and happily pay whatever 'luxury tax' they need to in order to park rich talent on the bench ala ManU.  This is because MLB has a 'soft cap'.   
 
When you look at other leagues such as the NBA and NFL however you see that teams are forced to abide by the financial restrictions.  Why is this a good thing? Because if you limit team spending then teams have to be more judicious with their wallets, thinking twice about how much money they can throw at players.  This keeps salaries reasonable… hypothetical example using Chelsea: instead of offering a man $100 million b/c Chelsea can afford it, and because they know that Arsenal can’t, it might force Abramovich to stick to a figure that more realistically reflects the player’s worth… say $60 million. 

By artificially driving up that player’s worth to $100 million it creates a domino effect.  Some next player looking at the Chelsea target man (who scored 40 goals last season), would say “well shit… I score 35, if he get paid $100 million den I want $90”.  Truth is that player might only be worth $40 or $50 million instead of $90.  So irresponsible spending by owners artificially drives up market prices.  Aside from which, since only a handful of teams could afford that $100 million price tag, it perpetuates competitive disparity in the league… something which plagues the EPL right now.  There are the ‘big four’… and then everyone else.  That has to change.

So again, criticize MLS if you want, but salary caps are a foreign concept to European sport, hearing from someone with the requisite experience (forget Garber as MLS head, he’s a business executive first and has the expertise to talk about it) to explain the proposed caps and the pros and  cons of implementing them.
...
Btw… non-guaranteed contracts don’t violate labor laws, the NFL also has non-guaranteed contracts.  Parties are free to contract as they want (Freedom of Contract); what you see in MLS is the effect of a weak party (a Players’ Union still in the throes of infancy) bargaining with a stronger party… management is negotiating from a position of strength for now… but that will change.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 12:59:43 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 01:26:06 PM »
The only problem with what Gerber offers is that some will find it hypocritical when MLS has the "Superstar" a/k/a the Beckham rule.  This rule allows teams to find a mega star player and offer seemingly rediculous sums to play in MLS.  At the height of Ronaldihno's career he was offered more than 100M to play in MLS.  How good is that for competition?  Can these teams actually handle such financial responsibility?  While some big spending teams create a ridiculous spending atmosphere in Europe, most teams operate within their means (it would seem) and appear to be competitive.  Look at Arsenal for example and we can see that they are very frugal yet extremely competitive.  For all the money Man City spent it isn't a guarantee of anything. 

I don’t see anything hypocritical about it at all… MLS is doing what it has to do in order to survive.  Trust me when I say that FIFA, UEFA the English FA… all of them want MLS to succeed because anyone sincerely interested in the growth and development of football would recognize what a benefit it would be to have football become more dominant in the largest (and richest) untapped market in the world.  Besides, it would mean the development of a huge talent pool of would-be players, to have American sports throw money and resources at developing football players.

But back to your point… MLS is a monopoly so to carve out exceptions such as the Beckham rule isn’t detrimental to the sport, because the cost of paying more to that ‘elite’ player is then shared by all teams (because of the management model).  That cost incidentally, is easily outweighed by the benefit of having a Beckham or Angel or Ljungberg on the field.

The EPL won’t have such an exception because it’s not a monopoly and so Chelsea overspending would be detrimental to Stoke… or perhaps moreso to a Villa, who more realistically would be in closer competition with these elite, big-spending teams.  Unlike the MLS model, that overpriced player going to Chelsea would not be to the benefit of the entire league, just to Chelsea.  The EPL doesn’t need to attract big name players at this point, MLS does… the cost-benefit analysis doesn’t compare.

As far as competition goes… there’s also no way you can say with a straight face that the current system works.  Look at every one of those European leagues, and perhaps with the exception of the Bundesliga (with Wolfsburg upsetting the apple cart last season) it’s the same tired retreads winning these leagues year after year.  Sunderland has no chance of competing with Man U, nor Sevilla with Madrid because neither of those teams has the financial wherewithal to spend the kind of money that top teams can.  Getting into European competition is the Holy Grail because of the financial boon it gives the teams.  With these legacy teams at the top winning year after year it affords them the opportunity to take that Champions League money and amass a war chest that the lower echelon teams can’t match.  Salary caps will go a long way towards addressing that.

Offline dinho

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 01:36:10 PM »
the main obstacle to any notion of salary caps in the European leagues is different countries.. different currencies... different costs of living.. different tax rules..

implement a salary cap in the EPL and the best players will go to La Liga or wherever else they would get paid more. At one point, alot of good players were attracted to Monaco because it was a tax haven.

It would have to be an across the board rule, and even so, you still have the issue of taxation.. A player may be capped at $80k a week at Chelsea, but paying back $40k in taxes under the new tax system... whereas in Spain he would have much more take home pay..

much easier said than done.

         

Offline Observer

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 01:42:37 PM »
First to begin because it is in the NFL does not mean it does not violate Labour Law. In what other Professional field do we see this. Now dealing with European Union employment Laws and then laws within each existing country is another major complication.
 
Ok lets say they get around all that, lets face it the reason why these things work in the USA is because there exist no promotion and relegation. Once you are in, your in, and you are guranteed a certain %, in case of the NFL equal split of certain revenues. There exist no equivalent competition for the dollar ie: its a monopoly
You can take your time and create and even balance team / league, because the teams don't have to worry about not being in the League next year. Or not getting into the more lucrative Champions League.
This for me is one of the greatest things about my game.
Football markets are also competitive globally, the teams around Europe compete in two or three different competitions. Its the best against the best in one competition, second best against second best and within the country respective Leagues and Cups. Players are bought and sold on a global market. How would you control the player movement or draft?
The only way this can be done IMHO is if club football moves towards a Super League (a Euro League). I would not like to see that happen and neither would FIFA (I am guessing). Some may argue it already exist with the Champions League.
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 01:46:12 PM »
the main obstacle to any notion of salary caps in the European leagues is different countries.. different currencies... different costs of living.. different tax rules..

implement a salary cap in the EPL and the best players will go to La Liga or wherever else they would get paid more. At one point, alot of good players were attracted to Monaco because it was a tax haven.

It would have to be an across the board rule, and even so, you still have the issue of taxation.. A player may be capped at $80k a week at Chelsea, but paying back $40k in taxes under the new tax system... whereas in Spain he would have much more take home pay..

much easier said than done.


The EU is about 12 years old... I'm surprised you haven't heard of it yet.  The only major player not using the Euro is not-so- Great Britain.

The issue of taxes is a mirage... American athletes aren't flocking to Canada or Europe to avoid paying taxes in America and it is similarly unlikely that a footballer with the opportunity to play in the EPL or Serie A or La Liga, would run to the Eredivisie because he would have to pay less taxes.  There will be some motivated primarily by money, but big players will want to play on big stages.... else Nakhid and he Saudi League friends woulda been teeming with players all  now.

As for implementation across the board, UEFA (in the person of Platinin) is the primary force pushing for salary caps... so yes, all of European football (EU member countries) will be on board.

Offline Marcos

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 02:10:52 PM »
EU laws look askance at anti-competition tools such as salary caps...

Funny that salary caps are anti-competitive but in fact promote competition by leveling the playing field
isn't the salary cap the very reason why the NFL is so good and baseball sucks?
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Offline kicker

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 02:37:43 PM »
EU laws look askance at anti-competition tools such as salary caps...

Funny that salary caps are anti-competitive but in fact promote competition by leveling the playing field
isn't the salary cap the very reason why the NFL is so good and baseball sucks?

Yeah - different types of competition.  Anti-competitive in one sense (that BNS is using it) refers to restraining the free markets (of demand & supply)....salary caps represent intervention that ultimately results in salaries reflecting something other than the pure result of the free forces of demand and supply. Competition in the other sense (sporting competition) is a different thing....i.e. the even playing field. 

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Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 02:45:51 PM »
1. First to begin because it is in the NFL does not mean it does not violate Labour Law.

2. In what other Professional field do we see this.

3. Now dealing with European Union employment Laws and then laws within each existing country is another major complication.
 
4. Ok lets say they get around all that, lets face it the reason why these things work in the USA is because there exist no promotion and relegation. Once you are in, your in, and you are guranteed a certain %, in case of the NFL equal split of certain revenues. There exist no equivalent competition for the dollar ie: its a monopoly
You can take your time and create and even balance team / league, because the teams don't have to worry about not being in the League next year. Or not getting into the more lucrative Champions League.
This for me is one of the greatest things about my game.

5. Football markets are also competitive globally, the teams around Europe compete in two or three different competitions. Its the best against the best in one competition, second best against second best and within the country respective Leagues and Cups.

6. Players are bought and sold on a global market. How would you control the player movement or draft?

7. The only way this can be done IMHO is if club football moves towards a Super League (a Euro League). I would not like to see that happen and neither would FIFA (I am guessing). Some may argue it already exist with the Champions League.
Apologies in advance for the long post but I want to address each of your points separately and thoroughly:

1. You are right, just because the NFL does it doesn’t mean it’s legal everywhere.  That was offered as illustrative proof of the practice’s legality, not definitive proof.  But that example aside the larger issue is the Freedom to Contract doctrine… when parties bargain they bargain within certain statutory (or even common law) parameters, but within those parameters they are free to dictate the terms of the contract.  If a player wants to agree to a non-guaranteed contract he’s free to do so at his own detriment.  Perhaps a court might look at the relative bargaining strengths of the parties and say “well, this seems to be a contract of adhesion… the other side didn’t have a choice but to agree to your terms, we will void it.”  But thus far courts haven’t invalidated non-guarantee contracts.  They are not only valid in the US, but they are in compliance with EU contract law.  Note I speak of contract law, because this is a contract,  not Employment law issue.

2. In what other fields we see this?  Try everywhere in North America… ever hear of ‘employment-at-will’?  You can be fired for any reason… or no reason at all.  Even in Canada, they don’t need to give you a reason for firing you… courts only ask that they give you notice and treat you nice while showing you the door.

3. You won’t have to deal with EU Employment laws on top of laws within each country… just the EU laws, because all European countries that are part of the EU, their national laws are subject to EU laws.  The employment law thing was addressed above, it’s really a contract law issue.  EU employment law only requires that employment be contractual (as opposed to ‘at-will’), the employment laws don’t address the issue of whether the contract should be guaranteed or not.

4. Promotion and Relegation doesn’t affect the issue of a salary cap.  Even in a system of promotion and relegation, yes once you’re in you’re in… but while you’re in you have to play by the rules of whatever you got into… namely the professional league.  The EPL has revenue sharing just as does the NFL and other American leagues, it’s a limited monopoly in that regard, but not a true monopoly in the mold of MLS.  MLS is not only a league but an ownership entity… at one time owning all team, now divesting itself of some, but still owning most teams.  There is no correlation in Europe… hence no monopoly in Europe… nor could there be.  The NFL had to get special anti-trust exemption from Congress (as did MLB) for it to function with the power it does.  The EU has not granted such exemption to any of the football leagues, nor is it likely to do so.

The issue of newly-promoted clubs needing time to build a competitive team is true, but the argument is a non-starter.  You would need time to build regardless as to whether there is a cap or not.  A cap just means that as a newly-promoted team the rich clubs lose some of the financial advantages they would otherwise have over you… namely that war chest of money I spoke of earlier… they can’t spend it all.  Instead they are restricted to spending on the same level as you, the new financially disadvantaged team.  In fact leagues can even go as far as to offer exemptions to the cap for the three or four newly promoted teams, so as to help them gain their competitive legs.  Bottom line is that caps and a promotion/relegation system aren’t mutually exclusive.

5. What you say about the multiple layers of competition in European football doesn’t really have any effect on the arguments for or against salary caps.  Caps would apply only to the domestic leagues.  For example, if the EPL has a cap of $200 million dollars per team per year; and La Liga and Serie A and Ligue 1 and the Bundesliga etc. all follow the same cap, then the issue of their teams being on the same competitive footing in The Champions league would have been addressed b/c all teams have to abide by the same restrictions.  Of course the $200 million figure would not apply to the lower tier leagues like The Championship b/c those teams aren’t spending on that level.  But all teams eligible for European Competition could be made subject to the same cap.

6. There would be no need to control player movement (don’t think there’s a draft anywhere in Europe).  Players are free to go wherever they want… chasing the money all the way to Saudi Arabia and Thailand if they want.  The better players would want to compete in Europe though, as this is football’s brightest and most prestigious stage.  Players want to be rich but they also want to be known as “the best” or among the best… the elite.  The natural market process would inevitably bring the better players to Europe, and once there the European clubs would have to play by the same fiscal rules when it comes to vying for their services.

7. The ‘Super League’ thing has already occurred albeit on a smaller scale.  Elite English clubs broke away from the old FA League to form the “Premier” League… a privileged group of elite, rich clubs.  Look where that has gotten us.

Clearly salary caps… as well as roster limits (say 30 players, with allowances for a “disabled list” for injured players).  This would prevent teams from frivolously spending on players, and then parking players on the bench, which only serves to the detriment of the benched player and the marketplace, which otherwise could better use that idle talent.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 02:53:33 PM by Bake n Shark »

Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2009, 02:51:56 PM »
EU laws look askance at anti-competition tools such as salary caps...

Funny that salary caps are anti-competitive but in fact promote competition by leveling the playing field
isn't the salary cap the very reason why the NFL is so good and baseball sucks?

Yeah - different types of competition.  Anti-competitive in one sense (that BNS is using it) refers to restraining the free markets (of demand & supply)....salary caps represent intervention that ultimately results in salaries reflecting something other than the pure result of the free forces of demand and supply. Competition in the other sense (sporting competition) is a different thing....i.e. the even playing field. 


yeah I was just kinda blindly mirroring the language used by the EU, but in saying 'anti-competition' it really means "anti-market", or anything that would impede the natural operation of market forces (supply and demand)... man-made efforts to curb those forces.  It's actually kinda funny because that is a decidely Libertarian philosophy, yet Europe was more than happy to knock the US for standing back and letting market forces spin out of control causing the global collapse of the past 18 months.

Marcos, yuh also right... the soft cap is precisely why the Yankees and Red Sox etc. could afford to spend and buy up talent while smaller market teams like Pittsburgh and Milwaukee have to have fire sales every couple years to raise cash.


Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2009, 03:04:12 PM »
A player may be capped at $80k a week at Chelsea, but paying back $40k in taxes under the new tax system... whereas in Spain he would have much more take home pay..

much easier said than done.



Coming back to this for a second, because I only really now pay attention to what it is yuh saying:

"Salary cap" is somewhat of a misnomer... think of it more as a 'wage-bill' cap.  The cap isn't on the player's earnings (not directly anyways) but rather on the total amount of money a team would be able to spend on salaries for all players on the roster, per year.  So the notion of a player being capped at $80k per week doesn't really apply.

I also don't think a new tax regime on what players earn is being proposed... the tax will be on teams who spend above the salary cap.

Offline Deeks

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2009, 03:23:43 PM »
Guys,
        This is a real good discussion. This is good stuff. Carry on!!!!!!

Offline kicker

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2009, 03:38:17 PM »
Interesting how when topics like this are discussed, they are discussed in terms of polar opposites/extremes- i.e. salary cap v no salary cap....or wage bill restriction v no wage bill restriction...

What about the gray in the middle which could potentially strike a happier median?

For e.g. :

1- Any team spending more than X per annum, per roster must be able to show Debt/Equity ratios of x (i.e. to prevent teams from spending beyond their means)  

2- No team is allowed to spend more than X per annum on a player younger than X, and with a player rating of less than X (FIFA can establish player ratings based on coach's polls, awards/titles/trophies won, age, years of experience at the pro level, minutes played, nat'l caps, etc...) i.e. to prevent teams from spending on unproven players

3-

...And one can continue to get creative.  Point being there are possibly ways to lessen the potential downsides of each extreme...Orgs just need to get a little more creative, and take some time to think tank a bit to come up with a system that facilitates the creative end product....
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 03:39:52 PM by kicker »
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Offline Observer

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2009, 03:43:40 PM »
It's a good debate I must agree.

However, Bakes check your "employment at will" as it pertains to Canada. You will find something very different. So much so many who are employed by US companies in Canada would rather fall under Canada law.
Anyway that it neither here nor there!
I await UEFA decision on this.
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Offline Marcos

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2009, 04:08:36 PM »
Interesting how when topics like this are discussed, they are discussed in terms of polar opposites/extremes- i.e. salary cap v no salary cap....or wage bill restriction v no wage bill restriction...

What about the gray in the middle which could potentially strike a happier median?

For e.g. :

1- Any team spending more than X per annum, per roster must be able to show Debt/Equity ratios of x (i.e. to prevent teams from spending beyond their means)  

2- No team is allowed to spend more than X per annum on a player younger than X, and with a player rating of less than X (FIFA can establish player ratings based on coach's polls, awards/titles/trophies won, age, years of experience at the pro level, minutes played, nat'l caps, etc...) i.e. to prevent teams from spending on unproven players

3-

...And one can continue to get creative.  Point being there are possibly ways to lessen the potential downsides of each extreme...Orgs just need to get a little more creative, and take some time to think tank a bit to come up with a system that facilitates the creative end product....

The richer clubs will always exploit any gray area and still come out on top.
I personally love salary caps since they not only increase the competitiveness of the league they aid player development as younger/lower profile players are forced to contribute. Add ot that the fact that they can promote profitability.

Funny thing is the NFL also has a salary floor, so cheapskate teams are forced to put out a competive product.

NFL = Best run league in all of pro sports. (Still can't touch the atmosphere at a prem game tho')
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2009, 04:09:33 PM »
Kicker, with regards to point 1 I think the objective is different... your solution would force teams to be more responsible to themselves, their ownership or their shareholders.  It wouldn't address team acting responsible for the benefit of other teams or the league itself, which is the goal of a salary cap.  Man U. is financially solvent, and arguably healthy... but what they doing by spending as liberally (relatively speaking) as they do, then park men on the bench doesn't really help a Hull or WBA.  Right now they, along with the bigger teams are part of the problem.

Point number 2 might prevent teams from overspending on young talent... but what's to prevent them from overspending on already proven talent who still may be commanding inflated prices due to rich teams bidding against each other for them?

I agree with three... there might yet be compromise solutions out there, but to date, no one has proposed them.

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Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2009, 04:11:43 PM »

The richer clubs will always exploit any gray area and still come out on top.
I personally love salary caps since they not only increase the competitiveness of the league they aid player development as younger/lower profile players are forced to contribute. Add ot that the fact that they can promote profitability.

Funny thing is the NFL also has a salary floor, so cheapskate teams are forced to put out a competive product.

NFL = Best run league in all of pro sports. (Still can't touch the atmosphere at a prem game tho')

All these American leagues do actually... with minimum salaries in place on a graduated basis.  That is to say, there is a minimum salary for rookies... another minimum for players with 3 yrs experience... another for veterans with 5 yrs experience etc...

Offline dinho

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2009, 05:40:25 PM »
the main obstacle to any notion of salary caps in the European leagues is different countries.. different currencies... different costs of living.. different tax rules..

implement a salary cap in the EPL and the best players will go to La Liga or wherever else they would get paid more. At one point, alot of good players were attracted to Monaco because it was a tax haven.

It would have to be an across the board rule, and even so, you still have the issue of taxation.. A player may be capped at $80k a week at Chelsea, but paying back $40k in taxes under the new tax system... whereas in Spain he would have much more take home pay..

much easier said than done.


The EU is about 12 years old... I'm surprised you haven't heard of it yet.  The only major player not using the Euro is not-so- Great Britain.

The issue of taxes is a mirage... American athletes aren't flocking to Canada or Europe to avoid paying taxes in America and it is similarly unlikely that a footballer with the opportunity to play in the EPL or Serie A or La Liga, would run to the Eredivisie because he would have to pay less taxes.  There will be some motivated primarily by money, but big players will want to play on big stages.... else Nakhid and he Saudi League friends woulda been teeming with players all  now.

As for implementation across the board, UEFA (in the person of Platinin) is the primary force pushing for salary caps... so yes, all of European football (EU member countries) will be on board.

I brought up the tax issue because its actually becoming a much bigger issue in the UK due to recent change in the laws for high income earners.. It came up the other day with the Arshavin transfer.. This is off the top of my head so dont quote me, but apparently after he negotiated his contract, is only after receiving his first paycheck he realize how much he was getting taxed.. and his take home was probably even less than what he left Russia for.

The GBP/Euro exchange rate is also a scene, especially given the way the pound is falling. Making commensurate Euros in another country is much better bang for the buck.

In addition, to your point about players wanting to play in the best leagues.. the best leagues are determined by the level of investment, so I dont think you can isolate the two.. Players will go where the money is.. It used to be Italy in the 80s and early 90s.. then it was Spain.. Now its England.

The EPL right now compensates for the country its located in by offering astronomical wages. By this, I mean it takes a fair bit of coin to convince a Robinho to leave sunny Madrid for gloomy Manchester. A salary cap would more than likely cripple that league in the medium term.
         

Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2009, 08:19:52 PM »
I brought up the tax issue because its actually becoming a much bigger issue in the UK due to recent change in the laws for high income earners.. It came up the other day with the Arshavin transfer.. This is off the top of my head so dont quote me, but apparently after he negotiated his contract, is only after receiving his first paycheck he realize how much he was getting taxed.. and his take home was probably even less than what he left Russia for.

The GBP/Euro exchange rate is also a scene, especially given the way the pound is falling. Making commensurate Euros in another country is much better bang for the buck.

In addition, to your point about players wanting to play in the best leagues.. the best leagues are determined by the level of investment, so I dont think you can isolate the two.. Players will go where the money is.. It used to be Italy in the 80s and early 90s.. then it was Spain.. Now its England.

The EPL right now compensates for the country its located in by offering astronomical wages. By this, I mean it takes a fair bit of coin to convince a Robinho to leave sunny Madrid for gloomy Manchester. A salary cap would more than likely cripple that league in the medium term.

Latter points first…

Yeah… players will follow the money among the top leagues, but they’ll still stay in Europe where the best leagues are.  As you said, in the 80s Italy then Spain took turns claiming the title of “best league”… now it’s the EPL.  Even so, is La Liga hurting because the EPL is now considered the best?  Is Serie A?  No.  Why? Because there is enough top-flight talent to keep all the top European leagues competitive… there are only so many jobs, yet plenty talent.  This is precisely why roster caps need to be implemented as well to prevent teams from hoarding talent, unused and unexploited on their benches.  How many players on Man U. bench could be starting elsewhere in the EPL?  In Serie A or La Liga?  Granted the case of Man U might be the exception.

I also disagree with the notion that England somehow needs “compensating” for… certainly not to the extent that you suggest, that if not for the salaries being better than on the Continent players would faster head to the Continent.  Maybe, maybe not… but as I said, there are only so many jobs available on the Continent… so there would still be enough talent for the EPL teams to put on an exciting brand.  Indeed many still claim that ‘better’ players are to be found outside of England… that is only ‘marketing’ making the EPL the most popular right now. If that’s indeed the case then that further proves my point that even under the far-fetched scenario of a talent exodus to Spain and Italy, the EPL will still manage just fine.  I hardly think it would be “crippled.”

As far as the best leagues being the result of the investment in those leagues… investment can be construed in different lights.  The popularity of the EPL means that it can command a high broadcast fee from the likes of Setanta, FSC and ESPN.  That money is then shared among EPL teams (and to subsidized The Championship as well), that investment isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, so the EPL will have money for some time.  The profitability of the league wouldn’t likely be affected by a cap, just the ability of teams to spend freely. 


I similarly would discount the issue of taxation and the exchange rate.  The FA and the EPL will just have to get out their walking shoes and engage in that time-honored American practice of lobbying… they need to convince the Home Office or whichever Department is responsible for taxes that the disparity would hurt the league… I’m sure they’ll find a sympathetic ear… football, and the EPL… meaning what it does to England.  On the exchange rate, the Euro is fetching .92 GBP right now… almost a 1:1 ratio… that eh chasing nobody away.

Offline kicker

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2009, 09:39:02 PM »
Kicker, with regards to point 1 I think the objective is different... your solution would force teams to be more responsible to themselves, their ownership or their shareholders.  It wouldn't address team acting responsible for the benefit of other teams or the league itself, which is the goal of a salary cap.  Man U. is financially solvent, and arguably healthy... but what they doing by spending as liberally (relatively speaking) as they do, then park men on the bench doesn't really help a Hull or WBA.  Right now they, along with the bigger teams are part of the problem.

Point number 2 might prevent teams from overspending on young talent... but what's to prevent them from overspending on already proven talent who still may be commanding inflated prices due to rich teams bidding against each other for them?

I agree with three... there might yet be compromise solutions out there, but to date, no one has proposed them.



Well the hypothetical laws/rules (whatever you want to call them) aren't to be taken in isolation, nor were they intended to come off as anything near exhaustive...They're supposed to work in tandem, to collectively shift the balance away from overspending and abuse of financial advantage...and even if they don't each directly address the focal points of the wage bill debate, in the end they could collectively achieve the happy median sought by opponents/proponents of either side

Either way I really just came up with those on the spot and didn't think them through thoroughly-i.e. a first step in a brainstorming process..... was really just making a point that there are probably creative initiatives that probably require a little time, and the willingness to think outside the box for a bit...that would merge the best of both worlds and mitigate the worst of them....
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Offline elan

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2009, 09:51:49 PM »
Regarding Salary caps in the NFL, which other countries do the NFL recruit players from?
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2009, 10:06:30 PM »
Well the hypothetical laws/rules (whatever you want to call them) aren't to be taken in isolation, nor were they intended to come off as anything near exhaustive...They're supposed to work in tandem, to collectively shift the balance away from overspending and abuse of financial advantage...and even if they don't each directly address the focal points of the wage bill debate, in the end they could collectively achieve the happy median sought by opponents/proponents of either side

Either way I really just came up with those on the spot and didn't think them through thoroughly-i.e. a first step in a brainstorming process..... was really just making a point that there are probably creative initiatives that probably require a little time, and the willingness to think outside the box for a bit...that would merge the best of both worlds and mitigate the worst of them....

My bad... I thought you were positing them as an alternative to salary caps/no caps.  I'm just saying that I don't think they'd work as an alternative.  I can see them having some role in tandem though.


Regarding Salary caps in the NFL, which other countries do the NFL recruit players from?

 ??? ???

Well I'm not sure that this question has to do with anything... but for what it's worth, just off the top of my head I'll rattle off some of the foreign countries that have been represented in the NFL:

Sweden
Australia
New Zealand
Norway
England
Ireland
Scotland
Samoa
Nigeria
Ghana
Jamaica
Trinidad & Tobago
The Virgin Islands
The Bahamas
Mexico
Germany

I could go on and on... but again, not sure what this has to do with anything.

Offline davidephraim

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2009, 08:08:34 AM »
ownwers need to be more sensible

why pay a man millions to sit on the bench, just in case a next man get injured.

The fact is , these rich men dont care about money, They care about winning. As long as they winning they fine.

You think ambramovich care if he waste 100 million pounds.

If he walk out and chelsea crash that is thier business.

You can win without spending the big money you just need to think outside the box.
Thats if football was the only concern here. When Beckham came to MLS it was more to fuel advertising and branding than for the couple free kicks / crossed balls he could bring. Rather he brought a validity to his team and then the league. I suspect Abramovich ultimately has the same thought. Real Madrid might do real shit this year but the fans are extremely impressed to see and then buy articles from their favorite stars.
This shit is about money and we just have to wait and see as they will expose themselves sooner or later.
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Offline Marcos

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2009, 07:07:32 AM »

The richer clubs will always exploit any gray area and still come out on top.
I personally love salary caps since they not only increase the competitiveness of the league they aid player development as younger/lower profile players are forced to contribute. Add ot that the fact that they can promote profitability.

Funny thing is the NFL also has a salary floor, so cheapskate teams are forced to put out a competive product.

NFL = Best run league in all of pro sports. (Still can't touch the atmosphere at a prem game tho')

All these American leagues do actually... with minimum salaries in place on a graduated basis.  That is to say, there is a minimum salary for rookies... another minimum for players with 3 yrs experience... another for veterans with 5 yrs experience etc...

The teams also have a salary floor in terms of a minimum collective salary that the team must pay out. Guarantees yuh cyah chinks on players
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Offline Bakes

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Re: Premier League risks 'implosion'
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2009, 09:05:33 AM »
The teams also have a salary floor in terms of a minimum collective salary that the team must pay out. Guarantees yuh cyah chinks on players

Oh okay, I see what yuh mean... didn't know they had that in the NFL  :beermug:

 

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