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Author Topic: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???  (Read 10000 times)

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Offline ribbit

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2009, 10:19:50 AM »
there's a very good book by david noble, called beyond the promised land that tackles prechristian values without all this race :bs: .  clarke come off like a reverse racist.

Offline just cool

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2009, 06:02:26 PM »
there's a very good book by david noble, called beyond the promised land that tackles prechristian values without all this race :bs: .  clarke come off like a reverse racist.
Breds , if you went through the things that dr clark and company went through in the USA especially in the south during the jim crowe era and civil rights movement, then you would be sounding racist too.

not making any excuses, but them men had to endure negativity throughout their long long life, and still had tuh deal with the denial of both black and white ppl who wanted to pretend slavery and jim crowe never happened.

any white man ever spit in yuh fardder face and call him ah nigger infront of yuh and tuh add insult, yuh fardder had tuh stand @ attention and take it lying down?

yuh ever see ah white man who suppose to be ah law enforcement agent sic ah dog on yuh grandmudda and you just had tuh watch it go down and humble, or else later that night they would come wid ah lynch mob tuh string yuh up for standing up for yuh granny?

sometimes ah feel allyuh caribbeans never fully understand WHAT TOOK PLACE HERE NOT TOO LONG AGO! hence the insensitivity.
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline Conquering Lion

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2009, 06:52:25 PM »
there's a very good book by david noble, called beyond the promised land that tackles prechristian values without all this race :bs: .  clarke come off like a reverse racist.
Breds , if you went through the things that dr clark and company went through in the USA especially in the south during the jim crowe era and civil rights movement, then you would be sounding racist too.

not making any excuses, but them men had to endure negativity throughout their long long life, and still had tuh deal with the denial of both black and white ppl who wanted to pretend slavery and jim crowe never happened.

any white man ever spit in yuh fardder face and call him ah nigger infront of yuh and tuh add insult, yuh fardder had tuh stand @ attention and take it lying down?

yuh ever see ah white man who suppose to be ah law enforcement agent sic ah dog on yuh grandmudda and you just had tuh watch it go down and humble, or else later that night they would come wid ah lynch mob tuh string yuh up for standing up for yuh granny?

sometimes ah feel allyuh caribbeans never fully understand WHAT TOOK PLACE HERE NOT TOO LONG AGO! hence the insensitivity.

People forget the segregation was only 60 years ago. Less than a generation....so the scars are still there.

Writing him off as a reverse racist makes it easy to gloss over some of the important things that the man talked about. It also diminishes his commendable search for history and respect for knowledge.

Nice quote from video...."son go study the history of your masters and the people who enslaved you....and find out why they found it necessary to remove an entire people from the respectable commentary of the history of the world." :beermug:
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 07:02:39 PM by Conquering Lion »
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

Offline Conquering Lion

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 07:43:29 PM »
Interesting thoughts on nation management

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rHDYESmrCQ&feature=related
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

Offline Deeks

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2009, 08:36:59 PM »
A related issue. Sudan. It does not look good. I hope I am wrong. From BBC.

 Darfur again     http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8375972.stm
NubaMountains The next Darfur?     http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8368189.stm

Offline ribbit

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2009, 09:04:46 PM »
what ah hearing from allyuh is that due to past injustice, let de fella talk. he earn it. indulge him. we eh ready for no serious talk here. cool breeze.

Offline just cool

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2009, 06:10:17 AM »
what ah hearing from allyuh is that due to past injustice, let de fella talk. he earn it. indulge him. we eh ready for no serious talk here. cool breeze.
Yuh love tuh take things out of context eh! all man saying iz , sometimes yuh have tuh walk in ah man shoe tuh feel his pain! i not exoneration his comments, nor am i in favor of propagating racism, but sometimes ppl need tuh be more objective than judgmental.

i know nuff black american men over the age of 60yrs who would not forgive white america for slavery and jim crowe, and tuh add to it , they believe that white folks are all devils. now do i agree with their sentiment ? NO! but ask me if i hold it against them, and my answer would be equally NO!

go too lebonon or the west bank and gaza and ask any little arab yute or middle ager if they like jews especially zionist, and for the most part they would tell you emphatically, fack no!! they would also tell you how jews are devils and they deserve to be wiped out yahdi yahdi yah.   

that's BC when ppl are oppressed or has suffered oppression, it's extremely impossible tuh speak anything favorable or positive about their oppressors, even though for the most part the ppl who oppress them were in the minority.

i personnally don't view DR Clark as ah racist, just ah tell it like it iz type of fella who happened to have strong pan africanist views. now i could be wrong, BC i didn't know this man personally, so it's impossible to draw on ah conclusion as to who he truly was.

 but even if the man had it in for white ppl, i can't say that i blame him so much, BC no white man never disrespect or linch my fardder , muddaa, grand mudda, or great grand fardder, so i can't relate to his pain, love or hatred.
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline Conquering Lion

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2009, 06:46:49 AM »
what ah hearing from allyuh is that due to past injustice, let de fella talk. he earn it. indulge him. we eh ready for no serious talk here. cool breeze.

As Trinidadians, we sometimes do not realize how fortunate we are to grow up in a multicultural society where u can see other people's point of view. So we can't understand Jim Crow because it was not our experience.

Look......All i said is to listen to what the man has to say with a discerning ear and don't simply write him off as a racist. I don't know him, but will I will hear what he has to say.

Some of his opinions have a strong Pan Africanist leanings because of his Jim Crow experience and his study of African History. You have to applaud the man for his quest for knowledge, and much of what he talks about questions the traditional portrayal of history...so it is up to u to find out for yourself.

T&T right now could learn a lot from some of the things he mentioned on nation building.....
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

Offline assrancid

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2009, 10:53:46 AM »
That said name one nation where black people have made such great strides as in the USA!

jim Crow and segregation set us back, but it also made us inventive, cooperative and resilient.  When martin Luthor King made the call for equal rights and kennedy set it in motion we lost PLENTY ground too.

Some may argue that equal rights set us back more than Jim Crow.

Offline ribbit

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2009, 02:27:08 PM »
what clark saying come off as racist. pan-africanism is inherently about race. some on de forum like to say we all originated from africa - not to de pan-africanist. like they say, history written by de victors. in the old days that was the europeans. they get take over by the americans. the next century supposed to be china. different players same game. de youth of today should get ahead of that - study an asian-centric perspective of history. asia weather colonialism better than africa so learn something from them for a change. just my opinion.

Offline Conquering Lion

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2009, 04:28:35 PM »
what clark saying come off as racist. pan-africanism is inherently about race. some on de forum like to say we all originated from africa - not to de pan-africanist. like they say, history written by de victors. in the old days that was the europeans. they get take over by the americans. the next century supposed to be china. different players same game. de youth of today should get ahead of that - study an asian-centric perspective of history. asia weather colonialism better than africa so learn something from them for a change. just my opinion.

Pardna you serious? While I don't like wikepedia as a source this might help to clear up a few things...

"Pan-Africanism as an ethical system traces its origins from ancient times, and promotes values that are the product of the African civilization and the struggles against slavery, racism, colonialism, and neo-colonialism. Pan-Africanism is usually seen as a product of the European slave trade, rather than as something arising in the continent of Africa itself. Enslaved Africans of diverse origins and their descendants found themselves embedded in a system of exploitation where their African origin became a sign of their servile status. Pan-Africanism set aside cultural differences, asserting the principality of these shared experiences to foster solidarity and resistance to exploitation."

In my humble opinion, there are lessons to be learned from Asian history, African history, the history of Latin America and Caribbean history (among others). For the youths to "get ahead of that" they first need to know their history (be it African, Asian, European or Caribbean).

As I said...listen to what the man says in its entirety and pick out what makes sense.
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

Offline ribbit

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2009, 08:32:06 PM »
what clark saying come off as racist. pan-africanism is inherently about race. some on de forum like to say we all originated from africa - not to de pan-africanist. like they say, history written by de victors. in the old days that was the europeans. they get take over by the americans. the next century supposed to be china. different players same game. de youth of today should get ahead of that - study an asian-centric perspective of history. asia weather colonialism better than africa so learn something from them for a change. just my opinion.

Pardna you serious? While I don't like wikepedia as a source this might help to clear up a few things...

"Pan-Africanism as an ethical system traces its origins from ancient times, and promotes values that are the product of the African civilization and the struggles against slavery, racism, colonialism, and neo-colonialism. Pan-Africanism is usually seen as a product of the EUROPEAN slave trade, rather than as something arising in the continent of Africa itself. Enslaved Africans of diverse origins and their descendants found themselves embedded in a system of exploitation where their African origin became a sign of their servile status. Pan-Africanism set aside cultural differences, asserting the principality of these shared experiences to foster solidarity and resistance to exploitation."

wait nuh ... yuh looking for racism then yuh produce a definition showing de racism?!

"EUROPEAN slave trade"

fact is africans involved too. just like it take two hand to clap, trade involves two willing parties. talking about slave trade and neglecting one of the counterparties is bias. de criticism made of eurocentric history - that it leaves out africa - is accurate. but like pan-africanism doing exactly the same thing!



In my humble opinion, there are lessons to be learned from Asian history, African history, the history of Latin America and Caribbean history (among others). For the youths to "get ahead of that" they first need to know their history (be it African, Asian, European or Caribbean).

agree

As I said...listen to what the man says in its entirety and pick out what makes sense.

pick out what makes sense from the nonsense?!  :-\ ah go try.

Offline just cool

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2009, 12:04:50 AM »
what clark saying come off as racist. pan-africanism is inherently about race. some on de forum like to say we all originated from africa - not to de pan-africanist. like they say, history written by de victors. in the old days that was the europeans. they get take over by the americans. the next century supposed to be china. different players same game. de youth of today should get ahead of that - study an asian-centric perspective of history. asia weather colonialism better than africa so learn something from them for a change. just my opinion.

Pardna you serious? While I don't like wikepedia as a source this might help to clear up a few things...

"Pan-Africanism as an ethical system traces its origins from ancient times, and promotes values that are the product of the African civilization and the struggles against slavery, racism, colonialism, and neo-colonialism. Pan-Africanism is usually seen as a product of the EUROPEAN slave trade, rather than as something arising in the continent of Africa itself. Enslaved Africans of diverse origins and their descendants found themselves embedded in a system of exploitation where their African origin became a sign of their servile status. Pan-Africanism set aside cultural differences, asserting the principality of these shared experiences to foster solidarity and resistance to exploitation."

wait nuh ... yuh looking for racism then yuh produce a definition showing de racism?!

"EUROPEAN slave trade"

fact is africans involved too. just like it take two hand to clap, trade involves two willing parties. talking about slave trade and neglecting one of the counterparties is bias. de criticism made of eurocentric history - that it leaves out africa - is accurate. but like pan-africanism doing exactly the same thing!



In my humble opinion, there are lessons to be learned from Asian history, African history, the history of Latin America and Caribbean history (among others). For the youths to "get ahead of that" they first need to know their history (be it African, Asian, European or Caribbean).

agree

As I said...listen to what the man says in its entirety and pick out what makes sense.

pick out what makes sense from the nonsense?!  :-\ ah go try.
Rabbit , where yuh going wid all this? no body eh exonerating africans from having ah role in the transatlantic slave trade! the fact that the africans didn't give ah fork, just as much as their euro business pardeners is very clear to a lot of panafricanist.

panafricanism is just ah healing process from all the atrocities that was committed against african ppl from the 1500s till today, but yet still you want tuh compare all that bad blood to panafricanism.

FYI not all africans were down wid the slave trade, as a matter of fact it was the vast minority who gained there from. africans were also affected by the slave trade immensely since mothers and fathers lost their children who were kidnapped by the slave tarders. cousins, uncles grandparents, friends and family members were left to morn the lost of their love ones who were never to be seen or heard from again.

 it also had slavery by europeans against african during pre colonial and colonial era IN AFRICA. there was always slavery in that region of the world, ppl were bought and sold continually, but it was the cruelty of the trans atlantic slave trade that made it horrendous!

imagine hundreds of ppl stuffed in ah cargo ship with no adequate  housing facilities, ppl cramped together for months on end, could you imagine that MR FORKIN RABBIT!!!!!!! MAN SH!TTING PISSIN EATING IN THE SAME SPOT for the duration of the journey!!!!!

europen thought of africans as animals and live stock, so there were no guilt or remorse for their actions. yuh want tuh tell me bout the handful of greedy disgusting africans who was envolved, well FYI MR, african slavery was far more humane than the european slave trade.

when africans were @ war with each other they took the prisoners of war as slaves, every culture in that region did that, even some of the kids were adopted as sons and daughters and were treated with some kind of humanity, it's only when the europeans got involved the thing went sour. like you trying tuh say BC africans was involved, that made it ok for those european bastards tuh misstreat ppl like that??? yuh little marble hearted  MDFCR!!!!!!!

if africans ever did that to europeans , then yuh woulda never hear the end of it!! we would've been branded terrorist for eternity. allyuh have tuh really come to terms with what really forkin take place and dun wid all this politically correct modernization nonsense yes!

that is ah very sensitive subject for me pardner, so please watch what yuh say!
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2009, 12:16:20 AM »
in the whole western world, should there be some sort of compensation package offered to ancestors of slaves?
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2009, 08:43:51 AM »
Muslims are just as much to blame for slavery as the Christians....RELIGION AGAIN???

Offline ribbit

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2009, 11:49:45 AM »
learning about history and dealing with the consequences of history are two things that should be kept separate.
the requirements of each of these social functions are different. academics require rigour and breadth. leadership requires strategic thinking.
there is a conflict of interest when the history teacher and the civic leader become one and the same.
this opens the opportunity to trade off fact for purpose.
this kind of conflict is evident in panafricanism where the scope of study is narrowed to exclude the inconvenient so as to accomodate its purpose of unity.
in the long run, this narrowing will do more harm than good. the wrong path will be taken. my comments so far deal with this narrowness.
dealing with the consequences is a next problem.
my point is that dealing with the consequences of history should be separated from the investigation of history; it clouds judgement.

in the whole western world, should there be some sort of compensation package offered to ancestors of slaves?

who would you trust to negotiate reparations?

Offline ZANDOLIE

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2009, 04:31:11 PM »
in the whole western world, should there be some sort of compensation package offered to ancestors of slaves?

I heard this brother speak once.


From the Toronto Star.  http://www.thestar.com/article/196773

Published On Wed Mar 28 2007

LONDON–Steps from the Queen, spitting distance from Prime Minister Tony Blair, and with his voice ricocheting off the hundreds of statues and monuments in one of Christendom's most famous edifices, a lone protester yesterday halted Britain's national service marking 200 years since the end of the slave trade.

As the commemorative service entered its most solemn portion in Westminster Abbey – coronation court to monarchs and burial ground to 3,300 of Britain's finest citizens – the protester struck, bringing the event to a halt.

Security and church officials hesitated, afraid to escalate a public relations disaster.

Which white man wanted to be photographed hauling a black man out of church in handcuffs on the day the nation came to seek forgiveness for a practice the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, had just called "this atrocity" and "universal sinfulness"?

So, Toyin Agbetu had a royal audience – and he gave them a piece of his mind.

"This is a disgrace to our ancestors," he shouted, jabbing his finger at the Queen, sitting beside Prince Philip. "Millions of our ancestors are in the Atlantic," he said, a reference to the massive losses at sea aboard slave ships.

"`Sorry' is so hard for you, sir," he screamed at Blair.

Everyone present knew Blair had refused to pronounce an official apology for Britain's central role in the trade that enslaved as many as 20 million Africans in the colonies' cotton, tobacco and sugar plantations.

"This is an insult. We should not be here. All you Christians who are Africans should walk out of here," the man said before being eased out beneath the soaring 31-metre-high arches.

He was greeted outside the abbey by a small group of protesters, chanting: "1807 to 2007, nothing's changed." Then he was arrested.

Some 2,000 eminent Londoners – royals, diplomats, politicians, church leaders, and descendants of African slaves and British slavers – had poured into Westminster Abbey yesterday, seeking forgiveness and healing from the horrors of the slave trade.

Most passed through the Great West Door, where statues of 10 great world figures, Martin Luther King Jr., among them, look down on visitors to this, the Queen's church.

Along the north and south aisles, through the choir section, Poets' Corner, tombs of monarchs, memorials, effigies, plaques and monuments, the invited guests paraded past the pride of Britain – the martyrs and saints and knighted lot bearing silent witness. At almost every step, feet trudged on the graves of countrymen – William Wilberforce, Charles Dickens, Rudyard Kipling, George Frederick Handel, Laurence Olivier. Over there is the tomb of Sir Isaac Newton, over here the likenesses of past prime ministers. Not to mention the kings and queens and courtiers buried in shrines and tombs long looted for their treasures.

Near noon, with the organ that the incomparable Henry Purcell once played (it's been repaired) soaring above the congregational hymn "Praise My Soul the King of Heaven," the procession took the archbishop, leading clergy of other denominations and the Queen up the south aisle, right past a row of journalists – past a descendant of Wilberforce, the great abolitionist; another reporter; and finally, a "reporter" wearing a traditional African print shirt.

Queen Elizabeth, to the right of Prince Philip, walked within inches of this man on her way to the Sacrarium, the rostrum where her gold and burgundy chair rested.

The music was heavenly.

Relatives of Wilberforce carried in a copy of the Act of Parliament of 1807 that ended the slave trade, directly behind three escorts bearing the first edition of Olaudah Equiano's book, Interesting Narrative of a Slave, which brought the first-hand account of slavery's horrors to Britain in the 1700s.

Poignant and moving, the moment was captured by the Adventist Vocal Ensemble singing the traditional negro spiritual, "There is a Balm in Gilead," with such pathos and drama that the massive structure seemed to heave and exhale as the harmonies settled on the words "sin-sick soul."

Wilberforce's parliamentary speech from 1789, a spiritual, scripture and orchestral pronouncement took the archbishop to the pulpit for his sermon.

The national commemorative service was to be the high point of events marking the bicentenary. It also underscored the conundrum the event created for the Church of England, the monarchy and Britain.

Of all the European countries that benefited from the slave trade, Britain is doing the most to face up to its past. Some Ł30 million are being spent on the bicentenary – in displays and museum exhibits, dramatic shows, commemorations and development of a school curriculum.

But Blair, fearing any statement of apology might fuel attempts to seek reparations, has skated around the issue, angering some.

The Church of England owned hundred of slaves, branded them like cattle on plantations in Barbados and, of course, made money off the evil. The church has apologized and is studying what to do about reparations.

The Queen, meanwhile, has been mum on the subject. The monarchy, too, was deeply involved in the early slave trade. Queen Elizabeth I invested in the early voyages of John Hawkins, loaned him her armed 700-ton ship, Jesus of Lubeck, as a slave vessel, made money from the investment, and knighted Hawkins for his efforts.

Other royals followed suit.

A few years ago, Rastafarians from Jamaica wrote Queen Elizabeth II seeking reparations. Her response, lawyerly, skirted the issue this way:

"Under the statue of the International Civil Court, acts of enslavement committed today do constitute crimes against humanity. But the historic slave trade was not a crime against humanity or contrary to international law at the time when the U.K. government condoned it."

Nick Hazelwood, in his book The Queen's Slave Trader: John Hawkyns, Elizabeth and Trafficking in Human Souls, writes: "In their simplest form the Hawkins voyages were exercises in turning a quick profit: for the Queen, for himself, and for the group of rich London merchants and royal courtiers who had invested in the expedition."

If all that weighed on Archbishop Rowan Williams, he did not shrink.

"We are born into a world already scarred by the internationalizing and industrializing of slavery ... and our human inheritance is shadowed by it," he told the Queen and her guests.

"We who are heirs of the slave-owning and slave-trading nations of the past have to face the fact that our historic prosperity was built in large part on this atrocity; those who are heirs of the communities ravaged by the slave trade know very well that much of their present suffering and struggling is the result of centuries of abuse."

It is true that other European countries, as well as Arab and Asian nations, share the stain of slavery, today and in the past, he said. "But today it is for us to face our history; the Atlantic trade was our contribution to this universal sinfulness.

"Slavery is not a regional problem in the human world; it is hideously persistent in our nations and cultures."

With that said, the service moved to the most solemn portion, Confession and Absolution.

As the Dean of Westminster led the audience in prayer, starting with "Let us therefore confess our sins in penitence ..." the "reporter" in the African print shirt stood up and walked to the bottom of the steps, below the Queen.

For a moment it seemed part of the program.

Stunned security and church officials hesitated, then grabbed him, and he stumbled to the ground, shouting, staccato: "Let. Go. Of. Me." Several black guests moved in to calm the protester.

Johnny Hogg, a descendant of Wilberforce, was one seat over when the protester rose.

"This is a public relations disaster on a day like today," Hogg said afterwards. "Four white people wrestling a black guy to the ground is not what you want (in news clips and pictures)."

Toyin Agbetu, 39, it turns out, is a writer and founder of a non-profit organization and website called Ligali, which challenges negative stereotypes of people of African descent in the media. He had obtained a media pass to be present in the abbey.

Hogg and descendants of Thomas Clarkson, the other white abolitionist who supplied Wilberforce with much of his ammunition, say Agbetu injected a dose of raw reality into a dignified, carefully scripted service.

"These things run very deep," said Saphie Clarkson.

"He's got a point," said Caroline Roots, a Clarkson descendant. "When I saw him, I thought, `Blimey, how did that happen?' He snuck under the wire."

"If nothing else, it makes us realize this is still such a big issue that still makes people angry today," Hogg said.

Outside the abbey, the Queen later laid a wreath at the Innocent Victims Memorial in honour of all those who suffered and still suffer from slavery.

Leo Muhammad of the Nation of Islam wasn't impressed.

"Crocodile tears," he said. "The Queen is complicit; the monarchy is complicit. All this you see around here was built on slavery."

Penitence notwithstanding, this is a historic hurt that courses deep in the psyche, 200 years later.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger

Offline just cool

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2009, 08:14:11 PM »
Muslims are just as much to blame for slavery as the Christians....RELIGION AGAIN???
Yeh yuh right. but did jesus and muhammad teach them that it was alright tuh trade slaves?
bottom line, this eh have nothing tuh do wid religion, but rather unethical men on all side of the spectrum!

you seem fixated on religion for some strange reason. wham, like ah priest molest yuh as ah child or what?? almost every thing yuh post have some kinda religious sarcasm.

breds if yuh don't believe in god , then fine, God bless yuh ;D! but doh tell we who believe tuh join yuh in yuh atheism. by now the marish and the parish already KNOW how yuh feel about religion, and that you are a staunch athiest, but what i don't get iz why yuh have tuh keep reminding yuh self and us on this forum by bringing it up in every other post?

i really don't think ppl care @ this point. don't you?
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

truetrini

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2009, 09:55:48 PM »
Muslims are just as much to blame for slavery as the Christians....RELIGION AGAIN???
Yeh yuh right. but did jesus and muhammad teach them that it was alright tuh trade slaves?
bottom line, this eh have nothing tuh do wid religion, but rather unethical men on all side of the spectrum!

you seem fixated on religion for some strange reason. wham, like ah priest molest yuh as ah child or what?? almost every thing yuh post have some kinda religious sarcasm.

breds if yuh don't believe in god , then fine, God bless yuh ;D! but doh tell we who believe tuh join yuh in yuh atheism. by now the marish and the parish already KNOW how yuh feel about religion, and that you are a staunch athiest, but what i don't get iz why yuh have tuh keep reminding yuh self and us on this forum by bringing it up in every other post?

i really don't think ppl care @ this point. don't you?

You made reference to the european slave trade, hence my retort about Islam contribution to the human trade.

Prophet Muhammad did nothing to try and abolish slavery, he bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves himself.  He did say that yuh had as a slave owner yuh had to treat yuh slaves well and stressed the virtue of freeing slaves.  In all fairness Mohammed did free some of his slaves and did make it a good thing to free them.

All over the Gospels it spoke about slaves obeying their masters. (Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon)

After Jesus, Paul who wa s Saul of Tarsus is the most influential man as far as spreading the gospels.  He constantly exhorted servants to obey their masters.

I understand the historical context well too.

So to answer your question, I made the remark to SHOW that it was not just europeans with interest in trading slaves, but your defensivemess is well noted.

Offline ribbit

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2009, 06:21:27 PM »
in the whole western world, should there be some sort of compensation package offered to ancestors of slaves?

I heard this brother speak once.


From the Toronto Star.  http://www.thestar.com/article/196773

Published On Wed Mar 28 2007

LONDON–Steps from the Queen, spitting distance from Prime Minister Tony Blair, and with his voice ricocheting off the hundreds of statues and monuments in one of Christendom's most famous edifices, a lone protester yesterday halted Britain's national service marking 200 years since the end of the slave trade.

...

slavery been around for as long as agriculture. demand for labour scaled with arable land; that is up until technology replaced the field worker. the british were the biggest beneficiaries of the slave trade but without their tech (watt, et. al) no progress could have been on reducing the demand for labour and ending the millenia-old institution of slavery. in the broader historical context, this is a significant achievement.

godTC save the queen.

Offline Conquering Lion

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2009, 06:39:05 PM »
learning about history and dealing with the consequences of history are two things that should be kept separate.
the requirements of each of these social functions are different. academics require rigour and breadth. leadership requires strategic thinking.
there is a conflict of interest when the history teacher and the civic leader become one and the same.
this opens the opportunity to trade off fact for purpose.
this kind of conflict is evident in panafricanism where the scope of study is narrowed to exclude the inconvenient so as to accomodate its purpose of unity.
in the long run, this narrowing will do more harm than good. the wrong path will be taken. my comments so far deal with this narrowness.
dealing with the consequences is a next problem.
my point is that dealing with the consequences of history should be separated from the investigation of history; it clouds judgement.


For you to jump to the racism conclusion ...it means that the man has obviously said something that challenges your ingrained perception of things, or has said a few things that you cannot wrap your brain around.

My point was (and still is).... simply to take what was said with a grain of salt and don't just brand de man a racist. If you have facts to repudiate what Clark said in error...bring them forward and enlighten us.
We fire de old set ah managers we had wukkin..and iz ah new group we went and we bring in. And if the goods we require de new managers not supplying, when election time come back round iz new ones we bringin. For iz one ting about my people I can guarantee..They will never ever vote party b4 country

Offline just cool

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2009, 08:54:16 PM »
Muslims are just as much to blame for slavery as the Christians....RELIGION AGAIN???
Yeh yuh right. but did jesus and muhammad teach them that it was alright tuh trade slaves?
bottom line, this eh have nothing tuh do wid religion, but rather unethical men on all side of the spectrum!

you seem fixated on religion for some strange reason. wham, like ah priest molest yuh as ah child or what?? almost every thing yuh post have some kinda religious sarcasm.

breds if yuh don't believe in god , then fine, God bless yuh ;D! but doh tell we who believe tuh join yuh in yuh atheism. by now the marish and the parish already KNOW how yuh feel about religion, and that you are a staunch athiest, but what i don't get iz why yuh have tuh keep reminding yuh self and us on this forum by bringing it up in every other post?

i really don't think ppl care @ this point. don't you?

You made reference to the european slave trade, hence my retort about Islam contribution to the human trade.

Prophet Muhammad did nothing to try and abolish slavery, he bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves himself.  He did say that yuh had as a slave owner yuh had to treat yuh slaves well and stressed the virtue of freeing slaves.  In all fairness Mohammed did free some of his slaves and did make it a good thing to free them.

All over the Gospels it spoke about slaves obeying their masters. (Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Ephesians, Colossians, Philemon)

After Jesus, Paul who wa s Saul of Tarsus is the most influential man as far as spreading the gospels.  He constantly exhorted servants to obey their masters.

I understand the historical context well too.

So to answer your question, I made the remark to SHOW that it was not just europeans with interest in trading slaves, but your defensivemess is well noted.
Guy , you so predictable it's frightening! i knew you woulda went there, and i was waiting for yuh. FYI muhammad never owned slaves! and yuhs ah damn liar for saying so!

as ah matter of fact, he would spend good money freeing slaves from the ppl that owned them. back in that time when klans and tribes went tuh war , they turned their captives into salves, so when muhammad talked about treating slaves with dignity, he wasn't refering to ppl yuh just go out and capture, but rather prisoners of war who became spoils of war, and were made too serve, and there were ways too treat someone under your care, that was his referance to owning slaves and he muhammad also said to free them would be best.

in sura(90) al balad verse(13) there is a mention of anti slavery. a lot of anti muhammadan properganda has been written about muhamad which is just not true, even a lot hadith are frabricated in favor of muhammad as well.

but it is ah known fact that oppression is not allowed in islam, which include slavery.
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

truetrini

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2009, 10:46:39 PM »
Fella you so full of shit it is not even funny.  Even a cursory search of the internet will show the most novice of surfers that Mohammad held slaves.


In fact jes recently a Saudi Cleric stated quite rightly that Islam NEVER abolished slavery.
Steups.

I already mentioned his graciousness towards slaves and his encouragement for his followers to feree the enslaved.

FACT:  Islam allowed slavery as bounty of jihad. 

FACT:  Muslims were enslaving Black africans long before europeans even sailed for Africa.

FACT: Mohammad held slaves.

FACT:  Mohammed bought slaves.

FACT Mohammed sold slaves.

FACT:  Mohammed said slaves should be treated kindly and he asked his peeps to free them.

FACT:  MAny european slave traders simply met with Muslim traders at the sea port and bought his slaves from an Arab broker.

FACT:  These are words from The Koran:  3:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."

FACT:  bn Sa'd's "Tabaqat", gives a clear description of Muhammad having "relations" with at least one of his slave girls.  Muhammad had sexual relations with Mariyah, his Coptic slave.  Mariyah and her sister, Sirin were slaves given as gifts to Muhammad.  Muhammad gave Sirin to Hasan Thabit, the poet.  Ibn Sa'd says that Muhammad "liked Mariyah, who was of white complexion, with curly hair and pretty."  [Taken from Ibn Sa'd's "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir" (Book of the Major Classes), p151].

FACT:  The Quran also instructs Muslims NOT to force their female slaves into prostitution (24:34), and even allows Muslims to marry slaves if they so desire (4:24), and to free them at times as a penalty for crime or sin (4:92, 5:89, 58:3) and even allows slaves to buy their liberty, if they meet certain of their master's conditions (24:33).  [90:10 'freeing of a bondsman' refers to Muslims ransoming other Muslims who were slaves of non-Muslims.]

FACT:  Severalk hadiths state clearly and with full effect theat taking of slaves was allowed even having sex with them as long as you pulled out before ejaculation!

FAct:  Yuh eh know what de f**k yuh does be talking about!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 10:50:39 PM by Trinity Cross »

Offline just cool

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2009, 05:34:17 AM »
Fella you so full of shit it is not even funny.  Even a cursory search of the internet will show the most novice of surfers that Mohammad held slaves.


In fact jes recently a Saudi Cleric stated quite rightly that Islam NEVER abolished slavery.
Steups.

I already mentioned his graciousness towards slaves and his encouragement for his followers to feree the enslaved.

FACT:  Islam allowed slavery as bounty of jihad. 

FACT:  Muslims were enslaving Black africans long before europeans even sailed for Africa.

FACT: Mohammad held slaves.

FACT:  Mohammed bought slaves.

FACT Mohammed sold slaves.

FACT:  Mohammed said slaves should be treated kindly and he asked his peeps to free them.

FACT:  MAny european slave traders simply met with Muslim traders at the sea port and bought his slaves from an Arab broker.

FACT:  These are words from The Koran:  3:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."

FACT:  bn Sa'd's "Tabaqat", gives a clear description of Muhammad having "relations" with at least one of his slave girls.  Muhammad had sexual relations with Mariyah, his Coptic slave.  Mariyah and her sister, Sirin were slaves given as gifts to Muhammad.  Muhammad gave Sirin to Hasan Thabit, the poet.  Ibn Sa'd says that Muhammad "liked Mariyah, who was of white complexion, with curly hair and pretty."  [Taken from Ibn Sa'd's "Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir" (Book of the Major Classes), p151].

FACT:  The Quran also instructs Muslims NOT to force their female slaves into prostitution (24:34), and even allows Muslims to marry slaves if they so desire (4:24), and to free them at times as a penalty for crime or sin (4:92, 5:89, 58:3) and even allows slaves to buy their liberty, if they meet certain of their master's conditions (24:33).  [90:10 'freeing of a bondsman' refers to Muslims ransoming other Muslims who were slaves of non-Muslims.]

FACT:  Severalk hadiths state clearly and with full effect theat taking of slaves was allowed even having sex with them as long as you pulled out before ejaculation!

FAct:  Yuh eh know what de f**k yuh does be talking about!

IT SEEMED LIKE YOU IS AH KINDA DEFF C@NT OR WHAT??!!! i said that slavery was allowed when it was prisoners of war and not randomly captured individuals! instead of killing the prisoners of war, they were taken as slaves or their adopted children!

i also told you that a lot of lies were told about muhammad! tuh hear yuh repeat every thing i mentioned, seems to me like yuh ears BUSSSS or yuh does only want tuh hear what yuh want tuh hear!

I WILL NOT ENGAGE YOU IN NO MO TALK! SIMPLY BC YUH DOES ONLY SEE AND HEAR WHAT YOU WANT TUH HEAR AND SEE, IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW IT ALL! SO STAY KNOWING IT ALL MR KNOW IT ALL! IYE, you alone have the truth and know the real, and every one else clueless.
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

truetrini

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2009, 09:45:52 AM »
So yuh retracting yuh staement that Mohammed NEVER owned slaves?

Yuh saying that only a sprisoners of war were you allowed to keep slaves?  What war did Islam have with the natives of Africa when they were capturing them and selling them FOR profit?

I acknowledged that Mohammed encouraged the good treatment of laves yet yuh cyar address the points that ISlam was trading slaves before the Europeans and christians.

yuh call me ah damn liar when I said he Mohammed owned slaves, had sex with them and encouraged his mewn to have sex except that they were not to ejaculate in the women captured.

Deny those FACTS..or shut tuh f**k up.

So because you went to war with my nation and won yuh had the right to keep my women as slaves, in fact sex slves?

STEUPS>

There is one mention of treating slaves with justice, and you call that anti slavery?

fella yuh is ah facking clown

Offline ribbit

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2009, 07:45:00 PM »
learning about history and dealing with the consequences of history are two things that should be kept separate.
the requirements of each of these social functions are different. academics require rigour and breadth. leadership requires strategic thinking.
there is a conflict of interest when the history teacher and the civic leader become one and the same.
this opens the opportunity to trade off fact for purpose.
this kind of conflict is evident in panafricanism where the scope of study is narrowed to exclude the inconvenient so as to accomodate its purpose of unity.
in the long run, this narrowing will do more harm than good. the wrong path will be taken. my comments so far deal with this narrowness.
dealing with the consequences is a next problem.
my point is that dealing with the consequences of history should be separated from the investigation of history; it clouds judgement.


For you to jump to the racism conclusion ...it means that the man has obviously said something that challenges your ingrained perception of things, or has said a few things that you cannot wrap your brain around.

My point was (and still is).... simply to take what was said with a grain of salt and don't just brand de man a racist. If you have facts to repudiate what Clark said in error...bring them forward and enlighten us.

listen to that 2nd link. if you still scratching your head at where de problem is, post a transcript of the talk. ah busy with other things.

Offline just cool

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2009, 08:06:53 PM »
So yuh retracting yuh staement that Mohammed NEVER owned slaves?

Yuh saying that only a sprisoners of war were you allowed to keep slaves?  What war did Islam have with the natives of Africa when they were capturing them and selling them FOR profit?

I acknowledged that Mohammed encouraged the good treatment of laves yet yuh cyar address the points that ISlam was trading slaves before the Europeans and christians.

yuh call me ah damn liar when I said he Mohammed owned slaves, had sex with them and encouraged his mewn to have sex except that they were not to ejaculate in the women captured.

Deny those FACTS..or shut tuh f**k up.

So because you went to war with my nation and won yuh had the right to keep my women as slaves, in fact sex slves?

STEUPS>

There is one mention of treating slaves with justice, and you call that anti slavery?

fella yuh is ah facking clown
What facts?? BC you said it or read it in some book it's ah fact!?? i read many things about trinidad that i know was obviously bogus, but you want tuh tell me BC some "credable " jackass wrote something from ah bias oppinion it's evenutually true.

well hears what i want yuh tuh do, bring yuh facts, BC according to the quran ah man eh suppose tuh sex ah woman unless he marries her or have an egagement call muta, and not all muslims practice muta, as ah matter of fact, mostly shia practice that! but the majority of sunnis and sufi's stay clear of it.

so you tell me that muhammad encourage his followers tuh sex the slave girls and abstain from making them pregnant, but in the same breath made fornication unpermisable? yuh think iz monkeys yuh talking too or what?

if yuh want tuh sh!t on ppl's belief system then i suggest you do yuh home work and stop spreading rumors!
in sura 4 (al nisa/woman) 25 verse, it talks about marrying slave women. muhammad never owned no slaves yuh forkin lair! he bought slaves and freed them, bilal was one of them, he bought him from omayerd and freed him, he also did that with a lot of ppl.

the slave women that he married was not his slaves, he never owned slaves, and he often incourage his followers to free their slaves and do the honorable thing and marry their slave girls instead of forkin them and using them for pussy.

as for islam trading slaves, you need tuh use the right terminology fella, BC there's no where in the quran, WHICH IS THE BASIS FOR ISLAM!!! THAT POMOTE SLAVE TRADING!! i posted ah sura where it states whrere ppl should free their slaves, but you telling me ISLAM had something tuh do with slavery??

breds UNETHICAL ARABS IS THE ONES WHO WAS INVOLVED IN THE SLAVE TRADE!! pre and post islam. i'm fully aware that there were so called MUSLIMS fully involved in the transalatic slave trade and before the african slave trade. but the question iz, what that have tuh do wid muhammad and islam?? did muhammad encorage slave trading?

you iz ah man who hate religion, and that's fine, but doh slander religion BC of yuh nasty ass hate , and with ah bunch ah bogus lies writen by ah bunch of disgruntled ppl, like salman rashdie, chancellor william, and dr benn jerkoff.

you is the kinda man who like tuh grasp @ straws tuh prove ah point, BC yuh feel yuh talking tuh meat heads on here, but keep coming wid yuh half truths, i right here waiting on yuh tuh set yuh straight.
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

truetrini

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2009, 12:31:00 AM »
1.  I said that Muslims traded slaves, you acknowledge or deny that?
2.  You caqnnot deny the Hadith's written by Muslims who were contemporairies and friends of Mohammed.  He had sex with slaves and even gifted some.  Mohammed bought slaves, and traded some and sold some and freed many.  Your point is NOT valid he sold and bought slaves and has sex with them.  He married one and told his men they could keep females as slaves a war booty..that is a facking fact Even if you doh like it.
3.  Muslims so-called or otherwise, they practiced Islam and were slave traders oftentimes selling to White men from Europe  FACT again

Take yuh bullshit to the less sophisticated.

I gave you examples, Koranic verses and Hadiths to glean info from.

You choose to attack me  becasue the facts doh mesh with your skewed belief system.

You ever heard of de Zanj Rebellion

Go f**k a camel

For those interested in the TRUTH start here....

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Historically, the major juristic schools of Islam traditionally accepted the institution of slavery.[1] Muhammad and many of his companions bought, sold, freed, and captured slaves. Slaves benefited from Islamic dispensations which improved their situation relative to that in pre-Islamic society.[1] At the end of the 19th century, a shift in Muslim thought and interpretation of the Qur'an occurred, and slavery became seen as opposed to Islamic principles of justice and equality.[2] This interpretation has not been accepted by the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia.[3]

In Islamic law the topic of slavery is covered at great length.[1] The Qur'an, the holy book, and the hadith, the sayings of Muhammad, see slavery as an exceptional condition that can be entered into under certain limited circumstances.[3] Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war could become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim.[4] They also consider manumission of a slave to be one of many meritorious deeds available for the expiation of sins.[5] According to Sharia, slaves are considered human beings and possessed of some rights on the basis of their humanity. In addition, a Muslim slave is equal to a Muslim freeman in religious issues and superior to the free non-Muslim.[6]

In practice, slaves played various social and economic roles from Emir to worker. Slaves were widely employed in irrigation, mining, pastoralism and the army. Even some rulers relied on military and administrative slaves to such a degree that they seized power. However, people do not always treat with slaves in accordance with Islamic law. In some cases the situation has been so harsh as to have led to uprisings such as Zanj Rebellion.[7] For a variety of reasons, internal growth of the slave population was not enough to fulfill the demand in Muslim society. This resulted in massive importation, which involved enormous suffering and loss of life from the capture and transportation of slaves from non-Muslim lands.[8] In theory, slavery in Islamic law does not have a racial or color component, although this has not always been the case in practice.[9]

The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa and East Africa. By the end of the 19th century, such activity had reached a low ebb. In the early 20th century (post World War I) slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[3] However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the African republics of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Sudan.[10][11][12]
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 12:45:00 AM by Trinity Cross »

truetrini

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Re: Not saying I believe this..but worthy of thought???
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2009, 12:57:36 AM »
Muhammad and many of his companions bought, sold, freed, and captured slaves. Slaves benefited from Islamic dispensations which improved their situation relative to that in pre-Islamic society.[1] At the end of the 19th century, a shift in Muslim thought and interpretation of the Qur'an occurred, and slavery became seen as opposed to Islamic principles of justice and equality.[2] This interpretation has not been accepted by the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia.[3]

The above shows that it is not only shias who hold the belief yuh could sex yuh slaves...steups  I have to laught yes.

 

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