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truetrini

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More Christian love.
« on: November 26, 2009, 08:55:15 PM »

Irish Catholic Church apologises for abuse by priests
Cardinal Sean Brady
Cardinal Brady said children's welfare was now a priority

The leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland has said he is deeply sorry and ashamed about the widespread sexual abuse of children by priests.

Cardinal Sean Brady also apologised for the way the Church covered up the abuse, which happened in Dublin.

He spoke after an Irish government report revealed abuse over decades, a systematic cover-up by the Church, and a lack of action by the Irish police.

The Church put its own reputation ahead of the welfare of children, it found.

The Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin covered a period from 1975 to 2004.

   
No-one is above the law in this country
Cardinal Sean Brady

Some offending priests were shifted from parish to parish, leaving them free to abuse again.

Cardinal Brady apologised to the victims and their families.

"I am deeply sorry and I am ashamed," he said.

The report also said that state authorities facilitated the cover-up by allowing the Church to operate outside the law.

Cardinal Brady extended his apology to all the people of Ireland for the lack of action by the Church.

"No-one is above the law in this country.

"Every Catholic should comply fully with their obligations to the civil law and co-operate with the Gardai in the reporting and investigation of any crime."

He said children's welfare was now a priority for the Church.  (before dat was rapist priests)

'Sorrow and shame'

The Irish government also immediately apologised.

Victim Marie Collins: "This is the end of a very long road"

"Whatever the historical and societal reasons for this, the government... apologises, without reservation or equivocation, for failures by the agencies of the state in dealing with this issue," a government statement said.

The report investigated how Church and state authorities handled allegations of child abuse against 46 priests made by 320 children. Eleven priests were convicted of sexual assaults on children.

Irish Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern vowed to bring those who had carried out the abuse to justice, regardless of the amount of time that had passed.

Cardinal Brady's words were echoed by the current Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, who said he offered "to each and every survivor, my apology, my sorrow and my shame for what happened to them".

Archbishops of Dublin, clockwise from top left: John Charles McQuaid, Dermot Ryan, Desmond Connell and Kevin McNamara
Four archbishops turned a blind eye to child abuse

The report found that four archbishops - John Charles McQuaid who died in 1973, Dermot Ryan who died in 1984, Kevin McNamara who died in 1987, and retired Cardinal Desmond Connell - did not hand over information on abusers.

The report states that senior members of the police regarded priests as being outside their remit and it claims some police officers reported abuse complaints to Church authorities instead of carrying out their own investigation.

The commissioner of the Irish police, Fachtna Murphy, apologised for the police failure to protect victims.

The Commission said all complaints of clerical child sexual abuse are now reported to police.



Offline WestCoast

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2009, 09:30:05 PM »
NOT FAR ENOUGH

just a few Short years ago they sent a Fowl f**king Priest here to Victoria.

The WHOLE church is ROTTEN to the core and their MEMBERS, every single one, are complicit
I only talking about the RC Church here

every priest should have their member and two sons REMOVED.....and the Pope charged ;).......this is a pipe dream

so.....anyone ever read this
http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn13/forgottenroots.htm
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 12:17:10 AM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline just cool

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2009, 12:09:58 AM »
Why yuh doh make ah thread bout what polpot, starlin, lennin, mow ste tong, kim in north korea, cruchkev, the fella from chzec rep( ah forgot his name) and all the atheist leaders who practice nepotism over the yrs and were responsible for the annihilation of hundreds of millions peasants!!!

is shame yuh doh have so??! like the atheist leaders was any better!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 07:54:18 PM by just cool »
The pen is mightier than the sword, Africa for Africans home and abroad.Trinidad is not my home just a pit stop, Africa is my destination,final destination the MOST HIGH.

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2009, 07:04:33 AM »
Why yuh doh make ah thread bout what polpot, starlin, lennin, mow ste tong, kim in north korea, cruchkev, the fella from chzec rep( ah forgot his name) and all the atheist leaders who practice nepotism over the yrs and were responsible for annihilation of hundreds of millions peasant!!!

is shame yuh doh have so??! like the atheist leaders was any better!

Well said JC. 

The issue here is power and control not religion per se.  No single group, atheist or non-atheist have a monopoly on atrocious and abusive behavior.  It is one-sided to only single out the bad in religion. As JC said, show the other side too. And while you at it, show the good that comes out of both atheist and non-atheist groups.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline Trini1

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2009, 07:36:25 AM »
Well said JC!

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2009, 08:29:32 AM »
f**keries JC!  And the rest ah followers.

Those leaders are not spreading the Gospel of love and forgiveness they were brytal despotic rulers, such was expected of them.

Are you saying that Christians are not diffferent from Communist leaders?

wELL i AGREE....AS MANY OF THE rOMAN cATHOLIC LEADERS WERE COMMUNIST OR MURDERERS.

gO FACK ALLYUH SELF.

There is a GREAT difference between those who claim to be purveyors of love.  The ENTIRS Roman Catholic Organization is full of shit.  Hiding child abusers for years, transferring them to continue their rape of innocents and claim God loves you while they are doing it.

We know what to expect from killers and those who want power....those baby rapers are more reprehensible any day!
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 08:31:36 AM by Trinity Cross »

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2009, 08:40:15 AM »
Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2009, 08:42:01 AM »
Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.

Anger and hate?

You speculated and thats what you unearthed?

lol

Don't flatter yourself.

IS PURE f**kERIES>>>>and yes I hate the Catholic Church (if that is what they really are).\\Raping children and covering it up all the while extolling Christian values and love....good for you and those who think it was ok and its just about power....

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2009, 09:10:17 AM »
Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.

Anger and hate?

You speculated and thats what you unearthed?

lol

Don't flatter yourself.

IS PURE f**kERIES>>>>and yes I hate the Catholic Church (if that is what they really are).\\Raping children and covering it up all the while extolling Christian values and love....good for you and those who think it was ok and its just about power....

now where did I ever say it was OK?  And how, pray tell, am I flattering myself?  You appear to be so consumed with hate that it appears to cloud your ability to read what I wrote.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2009, 09:33:26 AM »
Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.

Anger and hate?

You speculated and thats what you unearthed?

lol

Don't flatter yourself.

IS PURE f**kERIES>>>>and yes I hate the Catholic Church (if that is what they really are).\\Raping children and covering it up all the while extolling Christian values and love....good for you and those who think it was ok and its just about power....

now where did I ever say it was OK?  And how, pray tell, am I flattering myself?  You appear to be so consumed with hate that it appears to cloud your ability to read what I wrote.



I read and I understood.  I am not consumed by hate, just the facking hypocrisy.

So what of Pol Pot and Stalin et all murdered?

Did they claim to be havens for the down trodden?  A place where children are supposed to be safe?

NOPE!

The Church is supposed to exactly that.. a place where children are nutured and safe, yet them nasty modder c**ts were raping and covering it up, and you have the gall to talk to me about hate?

lol

As I said don't flatter yourself, you cannot claim to know if I am consumed by hate....I am not, yet I hate those f**kers good and proper.

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2009, 10:09:12 AM »
Oh dear, all that anger and hate .. one can only speculate the root cause. I have started speculating again.

Anger and hate?

You speculated and thats what you unearthed?

lol

Don't flatter yourself.

IS PURE f**kERIES>>>>and yes I hate the Catholic Church (if that is what they really are).\\Raping children and covering it up all the while extolling Christian values and love....good for you and those who think it was ok and its just about power....

now where did I ever say it was OK?  And how, pray tell, am I flattering myself?  You appear to be so consumed with hate that it appears to cloud your ability to read what I wrote.



I read and I understood.  I am not consumed by hate, just the facking hypocrisy.

So what of Pol Pot and Stalin et all murdered?

Did they claim to be havens for the down trodden?  A place where children are supposed to be safe?

NOPE!

The Church is supposed to exactly that.. a place where children are nutured and safe, yet them nasty modder c**ts were raping and covering it up, and you have the gall to talk to me about hate?

lol

As I said don't flatter yourself, you cannot claim to know if I am consumed by hate....I am not, yet I hate those f**kers good and proper.

awright ... the operative word I used is "Appear". I can only go by the angry and hateful rants in you posts that are full of expletives.  So if you dont want me to comment on them, then doh post them.  If you dont want people to assume that you are full of anger and hate then tone down your posts.  If if you dont want to tone them down, then doh get worked up when people conclude otherwise.

Glad you clarified your position so I now know that you are NOT consumed by hate. Because your posts that attack religion at every opportunity are tiresome and annoying.

I also agree that the church is supposed to be built on love and many individuals in the church have abused the trust given to them.  NO question.  But to tar and feather all of Christianity (as the sarcasm in the name of your thread implies), is misleading.

And as far as those other despots go, they also abused the trust of the people in their nations.  Their approach was different.  They use a terror and violence to exercise their control.  These recent bad priests use duplicity.


But I have to admit, you does make this board lively at times.   ;)
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2009, 03:11:39 PM »
LOL   listen the despots were never nice people, and ALL took power by force, who trust dem dotish.

The Catholic Church is not about "SOME" individuals abusing trust..it is a systematic and organization wide thing.

They rape and lolested little children and covered it up..from the top to the lowly parish priest.

They tried to cover up the image of the church and disparaged little children's testimony.

They are an evil f**king empire.

You are also frr to comment, jes doh be too christian like and judge...dais all

Offline STEUPS!!

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2009, 04:35:52 PM »
LOL   listen the despots were never nice people, and ALL took power by force, who trust dem dotish.

The Catholic Church is not about "SOME" individuals abusing trust..it is a systematic and organization wide thing.

They rape and lolested little children and covered it up..from the top to the lowly parish priest.

They tried to cover up the image of the church and disparaged little children's testimony.

They are an evil f**king empire.

You are also frr to comment, jes doh be too christian like and judge...dais all

WDMC i readin!. you is d same one who does be quick to judge and fight down anybody who post suggest dey believe in God, den yuh does turn around same speed an bombard d thread wid yuh atheist beliefs. wat kinda hypocrite ting is dat  ???

so is only u allowed to have an opinion on someting? nobody cyah judge your statements but u cud judge everybody own.  ::)

STEUPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
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truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2009, 05:22:05 PM »
LOL   listen the despots were never nice people, and ALL took power by force, who trust dem dotish.

The Catholic Church is not about "SOME" individuals abusing trust..it is a systematic and organization wide thing.

They rape and lolested little children and covered it up..from the top to the lowly parish priest.

They tried to cover up the image of the church and disparaged little children's testimony.

They are an evil f**king empire.

You are also frr to comment, jes doh be too christian like and judge...dais all

WDMC i readin!. you is d same one who does be quick to judge and fight down anybody who post suggest dey believe in God, den yuh does turn around same speed an bombard d thread wid yuh atheist beliefs. wat kinda hypocrite ting is dat  ???

so is only u allowed to have an opinion on someting? nobody cyah judge your statements but u cud judge everybody own.  ::)

STEUPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

What you smoking?  Where did I say people can't have their beliefs?

Comprehension elude you or what?

have any belief you want, judgment is something totally different, but ah guess dat pass you by?

I don't judge anyone. I make my comments if yuh disagree den good, dais yuh right.

wHEN i MAKE POSTS ABOUT RELIGION IT IS BASED ON solid FACTS EVEN THE ADMISSION OF THE f**kING RAPISTS PROESTS.

WHEEL AND COME AGAIN....

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2009, 05:49:18 PM »
Quote from: Trinity Cross

wHEN i MAKE POSTS ABOUT RELIGION IT IS BASED ON solid FACTS EVEN THE ADMISSION OF THE f**kING RAPISTS PROESTS.


Quote from: Trinity Cross

They are an evil f**king empire.





Yuh got to love it.   "They are an evil f**king empire" sound more like opinion that fact.  I tink you reading too much Dan Brown. 

btw, Angels and Demons is on DVD this week. You should rent it and keep quite for a while.




Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2009, 05:49:54 PM »
What you smoking?  Where did I say people can't have their beliefs?

Comprehension elude you or what?

have any belief you want, judgment is something totally different, but ah guess dat pass you by?

I don't judge anyone. I make my comments if yuh disagree den good, dais yuh right.

wHEN i MAKE POSTS ABOUT RELIGION IT IS BASED ON solid FACTS EVEN THE ADMISSION OF THE f**kING RAPISTS PROESTS.

WHEEL AND COME AGAIN....

Except there's nothing in any of your posts here that even has to do with religion.  The abuse in Ireland has as much to do with "religion" as the campaign of the Khmer Rouge had to do with politics.  just cool in his own way had it right, and whether you want to admit it or not, pecan also pegged you right on the "anger" issue as well.  Call it what you will but there's a lot of latent hostility in your words when it comes to the Catholic church... and religion on the whole. From the profanity, to the caps... to the typos... it all belies your emotion and I'm pretty sure that emotion isn't love or happiness.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 05:51:37 PM by Bake n Shark »

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2009, 09:47:23 PM »
Quote from: Trinity Cross

wHEN i MAKE POSTS ABOUT RELIGION IT IS BASED ON solid FACTS EVEN THE ADMISSION OF THE f**kING RAPISTS PROESTS.


Quote from: Trinity Cross

They are an evil f**king empire.





Yuh got to love it.   "They are an evil f**king empire" sound more like opinion that fact.  I tink you reading too much Dan Brown. 

btw, Angels and Demons is on DVD this week. You should rent it and keep quite for a while.


I am sure you know that they are nothing but an evil empire.  hey raped and molested many children for years and covered it up.  They created purgatory to sell salvation.

They started wars in the name of Jesus to conquer and subjugate.

The caps were hit by accident when I was typing, and I did not correct it, it beleis nothing!

If you look you wills ee that I even hit shift to capitalize and it did the opposite.

I hate the roman catholic church with EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING!  Yes I admit it, they are evil bastard s who hide behind frocks while they destroy young lives and covered it up for centuries.

So what if the despots started wars and murdered?  They were not purveyors of God's love, they were not supposed to provide succor to children.  Never did they set out to do anything else but rule with a heavy hand.

I feel that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad gets less flack than me when he denied the holocaust. I denounce the Catholic Church I get castigated as a hate monger.  Well call it how you want to call it.

I hate Hitler, Stalin Pol Pot etc. but they are all dead and were condemned by every decent human, and I put the catholic Church in the same vein as those f**kers.  So don't try to separate the church into pockets of decency versus indecency.  That is NOT truthful.

From the head to the foot, that so-called Church has raped children.  Right in Trinidad and Tobago we allowed them to molest and then run back to Ireland and England.

I am profane dealing with the profane.   I am anger and my anger is righteous indignation.

If you are part of a commission of inquiry into the role the Catholic Church played in the long term systematic abuse of children I find it hard for any logical thinking human to find them anything BUT evil!

The abuse in Ireland has everything to do with religion as far as I am concerned, as the abuse was perpetrated by and covered up by religious men within the boundaries of a religious organization.  When Cardinals, with the tacit approval of the Vatican cover up crimes within the Church for money and image, how can it not be religious?  Their callous actions were taken to protect the church.

If that has nothing to do with religion then I guess the catholic church is not a religion?

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2009, 12:28:30 AM »

If that has nothing to do with religion then I guess the catholic church is not a religion?

Did the priests in question rape those children because their religious indoctrination tell them to... or that it was okay to?  Or did they do it because they were men in position of authority who those kids looked up to and they took advantage of that position?

Offline elan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2009, 08:07:46 AM »

If that has nothing to do with religion then I guess the catholic church is not a religion?

Did the priests in question rape those children because their religious indoctrination tell them to... or that it was okay to?  Or did they do it because they were men in position of authority who those kids looked up to and they took advantage of that position?

But, what made them feel secure in that position of authority to do what they did?
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truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2009, 08:38:50 AM »

If that has nothing to do with religion then I guess the catholic church is not a religion?

Did the priests in question rape those children because their religious indoctrination tell them to... or that it was okay to?  Or did they do it because they were men in position of authority who those kids looked up to and they took advantage of that position?

I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles.  And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?

The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.

They have admitted as much!
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 09:33:08 AM by Trinity Cross »

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2009, 11:08:47 AM »
I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles.  And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?

The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.

They have admitted as much!

...and I'm not denying any of that.  But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals.  The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese.  You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault.  However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally.  so that points to an institutional problem.

All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2009, 03:31:52 PM »
I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles.  And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?

The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.

They have admitted as much!

...and I'm not denying any of that.  But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals.  The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese.  You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault.  However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally.  so that points to an institutional problem.

All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.

Isee your point and I acquiesce.

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2009, 04:09:05 PM »
Isee your point and I acquiesce.

Doh worry... God forgive yuh. 


He say tuh call him...

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2009, 04:15:00 PM »
I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles.  And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?

The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.

They have admitted as much!

...and I'm not denying any of that.  But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals.  The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese.  You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault.  However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally.  so that points to an institutional problem.

All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
All very apropos indeed
but
since this problem has been around for many years it is an "adopted Doctrine" so to speak even from the time of That Roman Emperor
this has been a problem with the LEADERS of the Church for many many decades even centuries
if is not the spanish inquisition, it is killing natives peoples for not converting to their church to what we have today

and Yes to those who say that many leaders around the world have been not too kind to their citizens
but this thread was about the "Roman Catholic socalled Church"
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 04:17:14 PM by WestCoast »
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

Offline pecan

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2009, 08:12:58 PM »
I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles.  And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?

The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.

They have admitted as much!

...and I'm not denying any of that.  But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals.  The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese.  You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault.  However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally.  so that points to an institutional problem.

All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
All very apropos indeed
but
since this problem has been around for many years it is an "adopted Doctrine" so to speak even from the time of That Roman Emperor
this has been a problem with the LEADERS of the Church for many many decades even centuries
if is not the spanish inquisition, it is killing natives peoples for not converting to their church to what we have today

and Yes to those who say that many leaders around the world have been not too kind to their citizens
but this thread was about the "Roman Catholic socalled Church"

I don't think that anyone posting in this thread so far would argue that the MANY in the Christian denominations have not abused their power.  From the RC church to the televangelists, so many members of the clergy have not acted morally.  (and I suppose this has been the crux of TC's argument - that somehow, their sexual crimes are worse that outright despotic actions because we expect despots to be evil but we do not expect priests to be evil).

Perhaps a problem with organized religion is that it does not take into account the inherent weaknesses in its organizational structure and the lack of appropriate checks and balances.  As a result, those who are already inclined to prey on the vulnerable, are attracted to religious institutions because within that structure, they can get away with it.  They use the cloak of religion to trap their prey. So it is not religion per se (as I attempted to articulate earlier) that is at fault.  Rather, it is the nature of the structure that attracts the bad individuals and the failure of its leaders to effectively eliminate the problem.

While much bad has been done in the name of religion, the converse is also true.  Much good has also been done in the name of religion. 



Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2009, 08:25:56 PM »
The simple truth is that people are people... good or bad.  Wherever there are people, you will find those that are good, and some that are bad.  Added to which, I'm a firm believer that the closer you try to get to God the harder the Devil goes to work... so if some well-intentioned people enter seminary in search of (truth, understanding, purpose, some higher calling)... whatever, Satan will go to work on their weaknesses and unless they are strong enough many will fail. 

Then of course one should never discount the possibility that some people are just inherent bad actors, collar or no collar.

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2009, 10:48:41 PM »
Pecan and Bakes, with all due respect, the Catholic Church has endorsed pedophilia for many centuries as well as homosexuality within monasteries.

The Pope himself send edicts to cover up, as well as his high ranking Cardinals, not jes Bishops.

I doh know anyone more Catholic than the Pope.

Offline Bakes

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2009, 12:39:03 AM »
Pecan and Bakes, with all due respect, the Catholic Church has endorsed pedophilia for many centuries as well as homosexuality within monasteries.

The Pope himself send edicts to cover up, as well as his high ranking Cardinals, not jes Bishops.

I doh know anyone more Catholic than the Pope.

"endorsed pedophilia" yuh say?  Okay.

Got proof? Links?  Anything?

Not that yuh have to convince me, I have no dog in this fight... but I prefer hard evidence to word of mouth or speculation, especially when it concerns claims as damning as this.

Offline WestCoast

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2009, 01:07:38 AM »
I hear you, very valid point. But the organization hid them, protected them, and covered up their crimes. Making the Church a safe haven for pedophiles.  And when the OFFICIAL position was one of collusion to hide the crimes...what is one to think?

The Church knew full well that the Priests were abusing, raping, molesting and destroying lives and took ALL necessary steps to hide the offenders, oftentimes moving them from Parish to Parish to hide their tracks and giving them FULL access to new victims.

They have admitted as much!

...and I'm not denying any of that.  But what you and elan point to is the complicity of the Catholic Church in protecting these criminals.  The fault really lies with the church officials responsible for supervising these men, and ultimately for looking after the parishioners within their archdiocese.  You can try and fault the entire church as an institution, but really it's the Bishops at fault.  However I also agree that the Church bears responsibility since this isn't in any way an isolated incident, but a recurring one, one which continues to crop up globally.  so that points to an institutional problem.

All that said, none of that is the fault of 'religion'... nor even the fault of Catholicism (as a doctrine) itself.
All very apropos indeed
but
since this problem has been around for many years it is an "adopted Doctrine" so to speak even from the time of That Roman Emperor
this has been a problem with the LEADERS of the Church for many many decades even centuries
if is not the spanish inquisition, it is killing natives peoples for not converting to their church to what we have today

and Yes to those who say that many leaders around the world have been not too kind to their citizens
but this thread was about the "Roman Catholic socalled Church"

I don't think that anyone posting in this thread so far would argue that the MANY in the Christian denominations have not abused their power.  From the RC church to the televangelists, so many members of the clergy have not acted morally.  (and I suppose this has been the crux of TC's argument - that somehow, their sexual crimes are worse that outright despotic actions because we expect despots to be evil but we do not expect priests to be evil).

Perhaps a problem with organized religion is that it does not take into account the inherent weaknesses in its organizational structure and the lack of appropriate checks and balances.  As a result, those who are already inclined to prey on the vulnerable, are attracted to religious institutions because within that structure, they can get away with it.  They use the cloak of religion to trap their prey. So it is not religion per se (as I attempted to articulate earlier) that is at fault.  Rather, it is the nature of the structure that attracts the bad individuals and the failure of its leaders to effectively eliminate the problem.

While much bad has been done in the name of religion, the converse is also true.  Much good has also been done in the name of religion. 
That is exactly my point
Ever since that Roman Emperor took control of the church they have been run like a business
The teachings of Jesus have been thrown by the wayside...................but they ARE the largest Catholic Church in the world
Whatever you do, do it to the purpose; do it thoroughly, not superficially. Go to the bottom of things. Any thing half done, or half known, is in my mind, neither done nor known at all. Nay, worse, for it often misleads.
Lord Chesterfield
(1694 - 1773)

truetrini

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Re: More Christian love.
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2009, 10:03:26 AM »
Pecan and Bakes, with all due respect, the Catholic Church has endorsed pedophilia for many centuries as well as homosexuality within monasteries.

The Pope himself send edicts to cover up, as well as his high ranking Cardinals, not jes Bishops.

I doh know anyone more Catholic than the Pope.

"endorsed pedophilia" yuh say?  Okay.

Got proof? Links?  Anything?

Not that yuh have to convince me, I have no dog in this fight... but I prefer hard evidence to word of mouth or speculation, especially when it concerns claims as damning as this.
Bakes when you allow admitted pedophiles to hide in the Vatican, when you allow the wholesale protection of those who engaged of pedophilia...come on man.

I don't give too much credence to this book, book it alludes to as much:  "Windswept House: A Vatican Novel". By a well renowned renown Jesuit Priest Malachi Martin.

The Church goes as far as excommunicating priests who ordain women yet allow those who rape children to remain in?

You stated that the Bishops were responsible for keeping the offending pedophiles in the Proesthood, but who do those self same Bishops get their orders from?  Are they not subordinate to the cardianls in Rome and the Pope?

If they are the ones responsiblke for keeping the raping priests in the church, why aren't those Bishops reprimanded and Punished?  In fact these same Bishops are later promoted to cardinal!

The talk has been for decades that the Catholic Church is NOT in a position to do anything meaningful about the homosexuals and pedophiles i the church simple because MANY of those making the decisions are homos and pedos.  The church would then do irreparable damage to itself.

Priests are often sent for "spiritual therapy" after being found to be pedophiles and MOST face no legal charges.  Families are then paid off to keep quiet.  These men are directed by the Vatican! http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=3.0.3976881520

The Vatican in issued statements stated that pedophile priests were ONLY a problem in the US....!  Well at least we does prosecute them here..maybe why they could make such a staement.



Look at this:  http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/09  This was in Octobe eh..../30/Vatican__Ephebophilia,_Not_Pedophilia/

Vatican: Ephebophilia, Not Pedophilia
By Julie Bolcer
Vatican X390 (Getty) | Advocate.com

The Vatican has suggested that instances of sexual abuse of minors by Catholic priests would be more accurately described as ephebophilia -- attraction to mid to late adolescents -- rather than pedophilia.

Archbishop Silvano Tomasi, the Vatican’s permanent observer to the United Nations, argued for the change in terminology in a statement following a meeting of the U.N. human rights council in Geneva.

"Of all priests involved in the abuses, 80 to 90 percent belong to this sexual orientation minority which is sexually engaged with adolescent boys between the ages of 11 and 17,” said Tomasi, according to London's The Guardian newspaper.

In the statement, Tomasi also attempted to deflect criticism of the Vatican’s handling of sexual abuse scandals by pointing a finger at other church bodies, reported The Guardian.

Tomasi cited statistics to argue that no more than 5% of Catholic clergy were involved in sexual abuse, claiming that the majority of American churches struggling with abuse allegations were Protestant.

FinallyZ:

From the old Pope to the new Pope:

http://www.skeptictank.org/gen4/gen02339.htm 

The Vatican has come up with new guidelines for the Roman Catholic Church to handle pedophilia accusations against priests, ordering church officials worldwide to inform it swiftly of such cases and declaring them subject to secrecy.

Promoted by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the rules were approved by Pope John Paul II, who in the past has expressed solidarity with the victims of sexual abuse by clergy.

The guidelines, which are apparently aimed at centralizing Vatican control over such cases, are intended for use by Catholic dioceses and religious institutions and do not apply to government inquiries or prosecutions.

Written in Latin and prepared several months ago, the church rules were quietly published in the Holy See's official gazette. They surfaced Tuesday in the newly printed 2001 yearbook of Vatican documents.

Pedophilia cases have been a major headache for the Catholic church. Besides the sting of moral scandal, dioceses in the United States and other countries have had to deal with expensive claims for financial damages.

The new guidelines came as a letter by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a close aide of John Paul and the guardian of doctrinal orthodoxy.  Ent this is de new Pope now?

He wrote that pedophile cases were subject to pontifical secrecy. Only priests should handle such cases, including those serving as judges, prosecutor or defense advocate in church tribunals.  Keep it house man!


http://www.teachthefacts.org/2009/10/vatican-wants-to-stop-calling-it.html
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 01:17:40 PM by Trinity Cross »

 

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